I like gurren lagann alot
I love the series and her but my favorite girl? no that`s a stroll to far^^
yoko my new favorite character
Topic started by kingmasters on Dec. 5, 2008.
Last post by cooldra1 11 months, 1 week ago.
Yoko Ritona is my all-time favorite character from artistic and literary fiction. It's a tragedy that the same corporation which created Yoko and imbued her with so many fine qualities then turned around and destroyed her in episode 12. But at least Gainax later tried to undo their damage by showing Yoko successfully pursuing an honorable and respected career in education at war's end. I think Yoko did a stellar job as lead female character; and it's a pity Gainax failed to recognize the positive impact their own creation -- Yoko -- had on the series. She could easily carry a series of her own!
On a personal level, I relate to Yoko because both of us are combat-zone veterans of voluntary military service. The considerable psychological baggage one accrues from spending too much time in combat took its toll on Yoko, who had great mental stamina but finally succumbed to a psychological breakdown in the episodes following Kamina's death. The fact that her friends chose to abandon her during that time, in favor of the shiny new distraction, was what tipped Yoko over the edge: she needed companionship and compassion more than ever, but all she got was loneliness. Sadly, none of her friends appreciated her plight; and this has long been the case in real life with many, many combat veterans when they were struggling with the onset of post-traumatic stress disorder.
I'm willing to bet very few of those who've screened that anime series picked up on what was happening to Yoko in those episodes immediately prior to Gainax dishonorably making her a human punching bag in episode 12. At least somebody on the Gainax creative staff was able to sneak clues to Yoko's failing health into the script, but that subtext was apparently lost on the target audience -- which doesn't surprise me. I think a compromise must have been reached between the Gainax creative staff, which liked Yoko, and the management executives who wanted her gone because she was too much of a departure from their precious formulae.
On a personal level, I relate to Yoko because both of us are combat-zone veterans of voluntary military service. The considerable psychological baggage one accrues from spending too much time in combat took its toll on Yoko, who had great mental stamina but finally succumbed to a psychological breakdown in the episodes following Kamina's death. The fact that her friends chose to abandon her during that time, in favor of the shiny new distraction, was what tipped Yoko over the edge: she needed companionship and compassion more than ever, but all she got was loneliness. Sadly, none of her friends appreciated her plight; and this has long been the case in real life with many, many combat veterans when they were struggling with the onset of post-traumatic stress disorder.
I'm willing to bet very few of those who've screened that anime series picked up on what was happening to Yoko in those episodes immediately prior to Gainax dishonorably making her a human punching bag in episode 12. At least somebody on the Gainax creative staff was able to sneak clues to Yoko's failing health into the script, but that subtext was apparently lost on the target audience -- which doesn't surprise me. I think a compromise must have been reached between the Gainax creative staff, which liked Yoko, and the management executives who wanted her gone because she was too much of a departure from their precious formulae.
After finishing Gurren Lagann I must say that Yoko is right there with Rei Ayanami as one of my favorite characters of all time
Flyvapnet said:
Flyvapnet said:
"I'm willing to bet very few of those who've screened that anime series picked up on what was happening to Yoko in those episodes immediately prior to Gainax dishonorably making her a human punching bag in episode 12. At least somebody on the Gainax creative staff was able to sneak clues to Yoko's failing health into the script, but that subtext was apparently lost on the target audience -- which doesn't surprise me. I think a compromise must have been reached between the Gainax creative staff, which liked Yoko, and the management executives who wanted her gone because she was too much of a departure from their precious formulae.I disagree with this, episode 12 just showed a side of Yoko that all humans share: jealousy, everyone feels it at a time.
"
So, Black_Rose, tell me about your experience in combat -- or, your experience with post-traumatic stress disorder. You're blithely dismissive of my recognizing in Yoko's out-of-character behavior something I've seen many times before and have experienced myself. But by all means, hurry to discount that too!
=^..^=
=^..^=
Flyvapnet said:
I agree with what you say in that Yoko was psychologically damaged after Kamina's death and she needed love, which she doesn't get. Yet, Yoko moves on, finds a new love (that being the children and Kitan, whom she also looses). What i'm getting from your post is a negative description of episode 12's Yoko, I apologize if it wasn't meant to be that way; but that's only human, feeling uneeded and jealous, it's not out of character, people go through many phases when they experience psychological damages.
But the thing that I dislike the most about your post is how you discriminate (perhaps unintentionally, I don't know) the "target audience" (I.e. Everyone but you) as dumb people who can't understand Yoko's feelings.
"So, Black_Rose, tell me about your experience in combat -- or, your experience with post-traumatic stress disorder. You're blithely dismissive of my recognizing in Yoko's out-of-character behavior something I've seen many times before and have experienced myself. But by all means, hurry to discount that too!My experience in combat is absolutely unexistant, does that make me better or worse? I don't think so. Does that makes me uncapable of understanding Yoko's situation? nope.
=^..^=
"
I agree with what you say in that Yoko was psychologically damaged after Kamina's death and she needed love, which she doesn't get. Yet, Yoko moves on, finds a new love (that being the children and Kitan, whom she also looses). What i'm getting from your post is a negative description of episode 12's Yoko, I apologize if it wasn't meant to be that way; but that's only human, feeling uneeded and jealous, it's not out of character, people go through many phases when they experience psychological damages.
But the thing that I dislike the most about your post is how you discriminate (perhaps unintentionally, I don't know) the "target audience" (I.e. Everyone but you) as dumb people who can't understand Yoko's feelings.
I'm sorry to be so late getting back to you, Black_Rose, but here's the thing: every corporate product has a target audience; and I've been informed the target audience for anime is young males. Thankfully, at least in Europe and North America, not many young men today have been either called upon or forced to take part in military combat. Consequently, there aren't many in this particular target audience who would be able to fully appreciate such things as combat or post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). This isn't a slam against a generation, just a fact of current events; and I'm sorry I didn't communicate better regarding this aspect of the matter.
We're all victims of our own experience; and I respect your opinion, that Yoko was merely manifesting a normal human characteristic (jealousy) and wasn't traumatized in some way. My own experience, however, causes me to see her as a warrior who's been in combat too long and has seen too many people die or suffer; and that in spite of her considerable emotional and mental strength she's begun to manifest symptoms of PTSD -- anger, depression, drinking, irritability, etc.
See, it's very difficult for me to envision Yoko as the jealous type. She'd always been a calm center of rationality and reason, so for her to suddenly become violently jealous is too contrived a situation -- in my view. But it's quite easy for me to see her as a victim of what used to be called combat fatigue, which debilitates one's mental facilities and is often manifested by out-of-character behavior. A jealous Yoko is, in my opinion, an out-of-character Yoko.
Gainax could have picked anyone else, Nia for that matter, to be its beach-party victim; but they inexplicably chose Yoko, who had been a hero and life-saver in addition to being one of the three original lead characters. I fail to see why Yoko was chosen to be the one humiliated, after all she'd been through and done for the Brigade. I also find it inconceivable that athletic Yoko could have lost athletic contests to the likes of Nia. It's impossible, unless Nia had "special powers"; and that would mean she cheated. Several others, who have much more expertise on the subject of anime than I, have told me that episode was contrived by Gainax for the sole purpose of making Nia look good and Yoko look bad. It worked; and for that, I'm very sorry.
Anyway, perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree on this: I can't see Yoko being jealous of anybody in the traditional understanding of what jealousy is; and you can't see her suffering from PTSD. Regardless, Yoko was made to look the fool. She deserved much better treatment.
=^..^=
We're all victims of our own experience; and I respect your opinion, that Yoko was merely manifesting a normal human characteristic (jealousy) and wasn't traumatized in some way. My own experience, however, causes me to see her as a warrior who's been in combat too long and has seen too many people die or suffer; and that in spite of her considerable emotional and mental strength she's begun to manifest symptoms of PTSD -- anger, depression, drinking, irritability, etc.
See, it's very difficult for me to envision Yoko as the jealous type. She'd always been a calm center of rationality and reason, so for her to suddenly become violently jealous is too contrived a situation -- in my view. But it's quite easy for me to see her as a victim of what used to be called combat fatigue, which debilitates one's mental facilities and is often manifested by out-of-character behavior. A jealous Yoko is, in my opinion, an out-of-character Yoko.
Gainax could have picked anyone else, Nia for that matter, to be its beach-party victim; but they inexplicably chose Yoko, who had been a hero and life-saver in addition to being one of the three original lead characters. I fail to see why Yoko was chosen to be the one humiliated, after all she'd been through and done for the Brigade. I also find it inconceivable that athletic Yoko could have lost athletic contests to the likes of Nia. It's impossible, unless Nia had "special powers"; and that would mean she cheated. Several others, who have much more expertise on the subject of anime than I, have told me that episode was contrived by Gainax for the sole purpose of making Nia look good and Yoko look bad. It worked; and for that, I'm very sorry.
Anyway, perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree on this: I can't see Yoko being jealous of anybody in the traditional understanding of what jealousy is; and you can't see her suffering from PTSD. Regardless, Yoko was made to look the fool. She deserved much better treatment.
=^..^=
My experience with PTSD is only second hand through a number of my family members, so take that however you will, but I think you two are thinking of different parts of the episode in relation to Yoko's personality during that episode. I agree with Flyvapnet when it comes to Yoko's... what's the right word... strange actions (strange when compared to her previous outgoing personality) during the more serious parts, like when she seems to be contemplating by herself away from the others and when Adiane shows up, etc.
I think Black Rose though is thinking you mean the more playful scenes like when they're all playing on the beach and just generally messing around. The PTSD makes sense on the above parts ^ but I don't think they were applying it so much during the stupid Nia running around with the lolicon idiots' scenes (yeah yeah, whatever was going on there, I think Gainax was trying to make a statement like they tend to in their shows; this case talking about how messed up fanbases can be nowadays, but take it however you will). Granted, her being mostly ignored by the others during those scenes definitely didn't help her already troubled mind from the other events, but all I'm saying is I think the misunderstanding you two are having is stemming from what scenes you're looking at.
I think Black Rose though is thinking you mean the more playful scenes like when they're all playing on the beach and just generally messing around. The PTSD makes sense on the above parts ^ but I don't think they were applying it so much during the stupid Nia running around with the lolicon idiots' scenes (yeah yeah, whatever was going on there, I think Gainax was trying to make a statement like they tend to in their shows; this case talking about how messed up fanbases can be nowadays, but take it however you will). Granted, her being mostly ignored by the others during those scenes definitely didn't help her already troubled mind from the other events, but all I'm saying is I think the misunderstanding you two are having is stemming from what scenes you're looking at.
Yes, HeeroYuy, I am thinking of those serious scenes; but I'm also thinking of scenes from prior episodes. Yoko was very depressed, much more so than anyone else, over Kamina's death. To an extent, that's only natural. But when combined with her knocking back a bunch of drinks, being irritable, sullen, being violently angry at the beach, etc., it begins adding up to something larger. I say it's PTSD. The jealousy part is, in my view, entirely contrived by Gainax in a (successful) effort to denigrate Yoko and make Underage Princess Perfect seem the omnipotent angel.
Now, the "playing on the beach" parts of episode 12 concern me as well; and that's because Yoko is in fact a quite superior athlete (refer to her rappelling entrance in episode 1 plus her lengthy experience at climbing, running and walking with a 35-pound rifle and its ammunition whilst the males all ride around in big machines) and the idea of Nia winning athletic contests against her is so absurd as to be laughable. I don't see those beach scenes as just messing around but rather as a dishonorable and mean-spirited way for Gainax to impeach their lead-female character's reputation. So in my view, there are no lighthearted scenes in episode 12.
What also baffles me is why people seem to accept the blatant sexism of a bunch of guys at the beach asserting their supposed right to see Yoko in less clothing; but then people accepted without question Kamina's asserted right in episode 6 to see Yoko and the Bachika sisters without any clothing at all! Perhaps I digress. Anyway, the whole get-rid-of-Yoko political scenario at Gainax still makes me see red. I'm sure you're right, HeeroYuy, insofar as Black_Rose and I probably see things from different perspectives.
=^..^=
Now, the "playing on the beach" parts of episode 12 concern me as well; and that's because Yoko is in fact a quite superior athlete (refer to her rappelling entrance in episode 1 plus her lengthy experience at climbing, running and walking with a 35-pound rifle and its ammunition whilst the males all ride around in big machines) and the idea of Nia winning athletic contests against her is so absurd as to be laughable. I don't see those beach scenes as just messing around but rather as a dishonorable and mean-spirited way for Gainax to impeach their lead-female character's reputation. So in my view, there are no lighthearted scenes in episode 12.
What also baffles me is why people seem to accept the blatant sexism of a bunch of guys at the beach asserting their supposed right to see Yoko in less clothing; but then people accepted without question Kamina's asserted right in episode 6 to see Yoko and the Bachika sisters without any clothing at all! Perhaps I digress. Anyway, the whole get-rid-of-Yoko political scenario at Gainax still makes me see red. I'm sure you're right, HeeroYuy, insofar as Black_Rose and I probably see things from different perspectives.
=^..^=
Oh..... I didn't know you guys were talking about other episodes too.
In that case what you said makes sense. I originally thought the part about Nia winning the competitions was an attempt by Gainax in their ridiculous fashion doing crazy stuff for w/e about Nia being a whacko clone or something since she was created by the spiral king er something, though actually what you said makes sense (and considering it's Gainax, that may very well have been their intention...who knows what's going through their heads).
And trust me, I share your sentiments when it comes to producers destroying a character. The anime adaptation of F/SN made Rin Tohsaka look barely short of being a little indecisive b----, and needless to say, that's not how she was in the game. Then again, that was moreso the fault of adaptation decay and Studio Deen at least rather than the original creators, but still, I can relate.
In that case what you said makes sense. I originally thought the part about Nia winning the competitions was an attempt by Gainax in their ridiculous fashion doing crazy stuff for w/e about Nia being a whacko clone or something since she was created by the spiral king er something, though actually what you said makes sense (and considering it's Gainax, that may very well have been their intention...who knows what's going through their heads).
And trust me, I share your sentiments when it comes to producers destroying a character. The anime adaptation of F/SN made Rin Tohsaka look barely short of being a little indecisive b----, and needless to say, that's not how she was in the game. Then again, that was moreso the fault of adaptation decay and Studio Deen at least rather than the original creators, but still, I can relate.
Thanks, HeeroYuy, for your supportive understanding of my assertion that Yoko had PTSD and that Gainax cruelly destroyed her integrity in episode 12. Indeed, it's a fact a meeting was held at Gainax several episodes into the series' production; and at the meeting it was ordered that Yoko and Kamina be gotten rid of, because some executive thought the "adventure series" theme wouldn't bring in as much money as would a return to use of formulae (i.e., use of a magical-princess character). So the formulae were imposed, Kamina was killed off, Nia was brought in deus ex machina style and Yoko was first publicly humiliated (episode 12) and then pushed into the distant background.
It's my understanding the creative staff were quite unhappy about this decision, but orders are orders -- if one wants a paycheck. I'm thankful, obviously, that they didn't kill off Yoko while they were at it; and I'm further grateful for the fact she was permitted to make a few very-brief but very-important cameo appearances later in the series. Plus, this news from gia of Yoko's having her own box set -- well, that's just great! My all-time fiction hero, Yoko from Ritona village, is embarked upon yet another adventure.
=^..^=
It's my understanding the creative staff were quite unhappy about this decision, but orders are orders -- if one wants a paycheck. I'm thankful, obviously, that they didn't kill off Yoko while they were at it; and I'm further grateful for the fact she was permitted to make a few very-brief but very-important cameo appearances later in the series. Plus, this news from gia of Yoko's having her own box set -- well, that's just great! My all-time fiction hero, Yoko from Ritona village, is embarked upon yet another adventure.
=^..^=
Saying any anime character having PTSD would be unusual, to say the least, and for a rollicking, science-defying anime such as Gurren Lagann? I'm sorry, but I do not share your perspective, Flyvapnet. Yoko is simply a girl who's torn up on the inside over Kamina's death - a case of depression and nothing more. Granted, the line between PTSD and depression is slightly blurred, I see none of the symptoms of PTSD present within Yoko. Before I start, don't get me wrong. I respect you and the sacrifices you've made for your country. Indeed, my own older brother was diagnosed with PTSD which led me to pursue a medical career in psychology. What I believe you are doing is seeing things which are not really there and disregarding other aspects in the anime, both of which I will explain later.
I'll start with a few key symptoms of PTSD, which are the following: repeated flash-backs of the event in question, and avoidance of anything whatsoever having do to with the event. Of course, there's also anger and sleeping issues and the such, although it's really the two symptoms aforementioned which separate PTSD from other anxiety disorders. Neither of these issues are shown within the anime, and certainly not avoidance of stimuli alluding to Kamina's death (Yoko did confront the whats-her-name princess, asking her in her face, literally, what the heck do you know about Kamina). There's also the issue of duration for PTSD to be even classified as PTSD, which is one month, rendering any diagnosis of PTSD for Yoko moot and impossible. A character who would more aptly fit the description of the disorder would be, in fact, Simon. For several episodes, if memory serves, Simon was completely depressed and even irrationally blamed himself for Kamina's death. This caused such an impairment in his social relations that hardly anyone other then the princess talked with him at all, all of these factors which would place Simon as the more likely to have PTSD. But then I'm digressing from the real discussion. The events at the beach are the focal point and climax, if you will, of her depression. Whether this is caused by jealousy or depression, or a mixture of both we may never know, but no evidence points towards PTSD other then anger at being shunned. Many anime series actually use the sequence of events as a method for the main female protagonist to eventually warm up to the newcomer, nothing more, nothing less. Naturally, by the next episode relations between Yoko and the princess are fine and all ill-feelings are suddenly gone.
In a sense, you are correct. Episode 12 inadvertently angered Yoko fans such as you, and me to be honest, by showing how Yoko was ostensibly weaker then the princess. However going a step further and bundling all that into PTSD is several laps ahead in my opinion.
You're reference to Gainax ordering the elimination of Kamina and Yoko and the justification for it is surprising and interesting. Kamina has been one of the most popular characters in anime of all time, and Yoko has been a popular character as well. In a few years, if not already, I see Yoko overtaking Asuka Langely Soryu as the most popular redhead in all of anime, no easy feat to accomplish considering the bizarre profusion of redheads. Replacing either with a magical princess character would obviously not aid the series economically in any way. In your own words, most of anime's intended audience are young men. Adding a princess character doesn't seem to fit that demographic. If you told me Gainax ordered the elimination of Kamina, that I would believe. His death was so sudden and plain meaningless, in my opinion, that I wondered if Gainax didn't just kill Kamina off for the sake of making the series more unique and special. However the order to eliminate or make Yoko disappear? If anything, a scantily-clad girl with a big gun was what drew me in Gurren Lagann in the first place, and many popularity polls seem to indicate that as well.
By now I'm off-topic in replying to your points and to the topic itself. Simply put, I believe you are hallucinating connections between yourself and Yoko. Gainax did a fantastic job in displaying a more human side to our favorite redheaded character, but saying she has PTSD is a mite too far.
----------------
Now in response to the original topic, yes, Yoko has fast become one of my favorite characters. No one else quite combines her energetic, forceful and compassionate personality, and not many other girls have a big-ass gun and the skills to match.
I'll start with a few key symptoms of PTSD, which are the following: repeated flash-backs of the event in question, and avoidance of anything whatsoever having do to with the event. Of course, there's also anger and sleeping issues and the such, although it's really the two symptoms aforementioned which separate PTSD from other anxiety disorders. Neither of these issues are shown within the anime, and certainly not avoidance of stimuli alluding to Kamina's death (Yoko did confront the whats-her-name princess, asking her in her face, literally, what the heck do you know about Kamina). There's also the issue of duration for PTSD to be even classified as PTSD, which is one month, rendering any diagnosis of PTSD for Yoko moot and impossible. A character who would more aptly fit the description of the disorder would be, in fact, Simon. For several episodes, if memory serves, Simon was completely depressed and even irrationally blamed himself for Kamina's death. This caused such an impairment in his social relations that hardly anyone other then the princess talked with him at all, all of these factors which would place Simon as the more likely to have PTSD. But then I'm digressing from the real discussion. The events at the beach are the focal point and climax, if you will, of her depression. Whether this is caused by jealousy or depression, or a mixture of both we may never know, but no evidence points towards PTSD other then anger at being shunned. Many anime series actually use the sequence of events as a method for the main female protagonist to eventually warm up to the newcomer, nothing more, nothing less. Naturally, by the next episode relations between Yoko and the princess are fine and all ill-feelings are suddenly gone.
In a sense, you are correct. Episode 12 inadvertently angered Yoko fans such as you, and me to be honest, by showing how Yoko was ostensibly weaker then the princess. However going a step further and bundling all that into PTSD is several laps ahead in my opinion.
You're reference to Gainax ordering the elimination of Kamina and Yoko and the justification for it is surprising and interesting. Kamina has been one of the most popular characters in anime of all time, and Yoko has been a popular character as well. In a few years, if not already, I see Yoko overtaking Asuka Langely Soryu as the most popular redhead in all of anime, no easy feat to accomplish considering the bizarre profusion of redheads. Replacing either with a magical princess character would obviously not aid the series economically in any way. In your own words, most of anime's intended audience are young men. Adding a princess character doesn't seem to fit that demographic. If you told me Gainax ordered the elimination of Kamina, that I would believe. His death was so sudden and plain meaningless, in my opinion, that I wondered if Gainax didn't just kill Kamina off for the sake of making the series more unique and special. However the order to eliminate or make Yoko disappear? If anything, a scantily-clad girl with a big gun was what drew me in Gurren Lagann in the first place, and many popularity polls seem to indicate that as well.
By now I'm off-topic in replying to your points and to the topic itself. Simply put, I believe you are hallucinating connections between yourself and Yoko. Gainax did a fantastic job in displaying a more human side to our favorite redheaded character, but saying she has PTSD is a mite too far.
----------------
Now in response to the original topic, yes, Yoko has fast become one of my favorite characters. No one else quite combines her energetic, forceful and compassionate personality, and not many other girls have a big-ass gun and the skills to match.
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