See boys and girls,when some thing is changed in a amine it's with often with the approval or at the request of the Japanese owners and/or creators. there for edits are not disrespectful to the owner's/creators work.
@sora_thekey: Good Idea but could the companies afford to put out two versions of a series and would any one buy the edited one. Personally I think the edited ones would just end up sitting on the shelves and be a wast of money on the company's part.
sora_thekey
moderator
on March 12, 2010 at 8:49 p.m.
@Fabe: True.... Solution: Just put out more unedited than edited...
@Fabe: Not really no. It just means that the creators where put in a position where they where forced to agree to something that they didn't want to. If they really didn't want it in there then why was it made that way in the first place?
" @Fabe: Not really no. It just means that the creators where put in a position where they where forced to agree to something that they didn't want to. If they really didn't want it in there then why was it made that way in the first place? "
Yes Gia did say that sometimes there is disagreement between the original creator of the a work and the Japanese company that owns it when it comes to edits but what I got is that the Japanese have more say of what gets changed edited then you think. They still own it ,I don't really see them being force to change much unless their willing to let it get change.
@Fabe: As a general rule, it's my understanding that the force, as it were, is with the Japanese companies. That doesn't mean American companies can't put a lot of pressure and say "look, it'll sell a lot bigger if we do THIS," but from what I've been told, especially with titles that aren't likely to ever reach a real mainstream audience (like Bund), the Japanese companies generally get their way.
I still don't know how Eiichirou Oda felt about the 4Kids One Piece dub, though. In all honesty, Japanese creators are creating for Japanese audiences. If their work gets licensed in the US, that money is relatively gravy for them, so they don't always get very involved in the localization. But sometimes they're very hands-on, instead.
Since I actually take credit for being THE person responsible for Funi removing the unedited Strike Witches episodes from their streams, I'll interpret that John was winking at me. ;)
FoxxFireArt
moderator
is online
on March 13, 2010 at 12:46 a.m.
@gia: I understand the title change, but not the excuse that everyone keeps mentioning. What I suspect is that FUNimation foresaw a possible copyright infringement by using the name "CONAN" in bold print on the cover. Do to Dark Horse already publishing a "CONAN" series comic book. That, or perhaps the holder of the Arthur Conan Doyle estate didn't consent for whatever reason. I believe the company brought this conflict to the attention of the Japanese copyright holder and they then came up with the Case Closed title. This theory makes more sense then the Japanese company demanding the title change. Why would they have a problem with a title like Detective Conan that is so easy to translate to English? It's not as if it was a title such as Shakugan no Shana.
I still suspect that the "Name" changes were actually the US companies ideas. Part of my evidence is that the name changes aren't consistent. Both VIZ and FUNimation often use different names in their publication of the series. Case in Point. There are two characters that were introduced in the manga in the same volume. Detective Miwako Sato and Inspector Ninsaburo Shiratori in Volume 21 of Case Closed. I was at the bookstore today and looked it up. In this volume, Sato's name was completely unchanged, but Shiratori was renamed "Inspector Santos". Sato in the comics plays a much larger role in the series then Shiratori. There are numerous story arcs dedicated to the love story between Sato and Detective Takagi (who's name was also unchanged).
Also, in the manga. They renamed two of the big villains in the series from Gin and Vodka to Melkior and Kaspar. How the hell are those names more easy for a US audience?? The whole theme in the Japanese version is that all the bad guys, The Black Organization, are code named after liquors. Gin, Vodka, Vermouth, Chianti, Kir, Korn, Sherry, Bourbon. There is currently a character that is suspected of being Bourbon in the Japanese publication. No one knows yet what Bourbon really looks like. There are often scenes showing this person who the manga is implying might be Bourbon drinking bourbon with close ups of the bottle. Often times when Conan is thinking about this villain he has yet to meet and there is an image of a bourbon bottle in the panel.
Bourbon Scenes
If these name change choices were coming from the behest of the Japanese company. They should match in both forms. FUNimation alters everyone's names, but uses the proper names on the DVDs' subtitles(so I hear). VIZ changes many of the reappearing cast names, but leaves the names of the suspects alone. FUNimation changed the names of the three kids from Conan's class completely, but I hear VIZ only changed their first names and left their last names alone. Supposedly, VIZ followed FUNimation's lead so there would be some consistency, but there really isn't any.
As with One Piece and 4Kids. Just because a Japanese copyright holder signs off on a change. That doesn't make it good or right. 4Kids removed entire canon story arcs, but they must of gotten some level of consent to do such drastic editing. What VIZ is doing to the Case Closed series is similar. Yes, FUNimation also makes a lot of changes as well, but I'm currently looking in to confirm that the DVDs' subtitles actually use the Japanese names. A relative of mine is renting two of the movies for me off Netflix so I can confirm this.
@sora_thekey: I don't think releasing two versions is viable in the anime market unless it's a Shounen Jump title, most non blockbuster anime titles just don't sell enough to justify that. Edited versions generally have dismal sales. Even back in the heyday of commercial anime in the US when a lot more people paid for anime, Cardcaptors and the edited Escaflowne were quickly cancelled, whereas they managed to finish the regular, uncut versions. There are up-front expenses in pressing and releasing a second version on disc. If the market was all digital download, then that might be different.
The "clean" and regular versions of music is different, because Walmart has 25% of the mainstream music industry, they either pay the long dollar to press a "clean" version or lose 25% of sales on a title that might sell hundreds of thousands or millions of discs. Anime on the other hand, often only sells a hundredth of that quantity.
It's hard enough to sell ONE product. Splitting it into two means a higher production cost, unhappy retailers (who then have to decide whether to stock half as much of each, just one or the other, twice as much, or none at all), and more often than not, confused consumers who will buy the wrong one no matter how much you try to make it clear what each one is.
Back when anime came out on VHS, there would be two of every VHS tape: sub and dub. And that was bad enough, believe me!
...That said, I wanted to throw out something I remember Carl Horn saying at Dark Horse: I assume that they would make some changes at the behest of a creator, but he told me that they have no interest in editing any aterial from Japan. He thinks it's disrespectful to license something and then say to the creator that some aspect is somehow unacceptable to western audiences.
Again, this doesn't cover changes made at the behest of the Japanese licensors and creators, and they want to make as much money off of their works as possible too, but I thought it was an interesting stance and thought some of you might have thoughts on it.
sora_thekey
moderator
on March 13, 2010 at 9:34 a.m.
@FoxxFireArt said:
"@gia: I understand the title change, but not the excuse that everyone keeps mentioning. What I suspect is that FUNimation foresaw a possible copyright infringement by using the name "CONAN" in bold print on the cover. Do to Dark Horse already publishing a "CONAN" series comic book.
I still suspect that the "Name" changes were actually the US companies ideas. Part of my evidence is that the name changes aren't consistent. Both VIZ and FUNimation often use different names in their publication of the series. Case in Point. There are two characters that were introduced in the manga in the same volume. Detective Miwako Sato and Inspector Ninsaburo Shiratori in Volume 21 of Case Closed. I was at the bookstore today and looked it up. In this volume, Sato's name was completely unchanged, but Shiratori was renamed "Inspector Santos". Sato in the comics plays a much larger role in the series then Shiratori.
Also, in the manga. They renamed two of the big villains in the series from Gin and Vodka to Melkior and Kaspar. How the hell are those names more easy for a US audience??
If these name change choices were coming from the behest of the Japanese company. They should match in both forms. Supposedly, VIZ followed FUNimation's lead so there would be some consistency, but there really isn't any."
The title change does make sense... but since the origin is Japanese I think it wouldn't be a problem to have the name, it's obvious that the animation could in no way be tied to Conan.
Name Changing is dumb! I mean my name is Geovanny, that's Italian for John, or in spanish Juan... Just cause I'm in the U.S. doesn't mean I am automatically re-named John or if I cross the boarder to Mexico I'm not going to be Juan... right? So there is no point in changing the name! Gin and Vodka are Gin and Vodka!
I am a little dissapointed since VIZ and FUNimation should know that...
@JD: @gia: Although I understand the fact that it would not be viable... but then what about an option on the DVD/BD? I mean I remember when DVDs had an option of Widescreen and Fullscreen... Why not have an option? I think I understand the reasoning behind the editing of the anime but still there should be an option...
Since I actually take credit for being THE person responsible for Funi removing the unedited Strike Witches episodes from their streams, I'll interpret that John was winking at me. ;)
Bwahahahaha. Winner.
FoxxFireArt
moderator
is online
on March 13, 2010 at 3:23 p.m.
@gia said:
" ...That said, I wanted to throw out something I remember Carl Horn saying at Dark Horse: I assume that they would make some changes at the behest of a creator, but he told me that they have no interest in editing any aterial from Japan. He thinks it's disrespectful to license something and then say to the creator that some aspect is somehow unacceptable to western audiences. Again, this doesn't cover changes made at the behest of the Japanese licensors and creators, and they want to make as much money off of their works as possible too, but I thought it was an interesting stance and thought some of you might have thoughts on it. "
Then don't blame people when they don't want the altered product and turn to things like scanlations and fan subs.
It's the simple theory of economics. Supply and demand. If the supply doesn't meet the demand. People will go where they can. You can't put out an altered and inferior product and wonder why no one wants it. Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece are selling well, because they are far closer to the original.
I seriously doubt the name changes in Case Closed/Detective Conan were initiated by the Japanese copyright holder. More likely the US licensors asked permission for these changes and got them. If these changes were something that the Japanese companies were demanding. The changes should be consistent. There is one case in the series that makes me suspect that Gosho Aoyama isn't very happy about the changes. Though it's more speculation.
" ...That said, I wanted to throw out something I remember Carl Horn saying at Dark Horse: I assume that they would make some changes at the behest of a creator, but he told me that they have no interest in editing any aterial from Japan. He thinks it's disrespectful to license something and then say to the creator that some aspect is somehow unacceptable to western audiences. Again, this doesn't cover changes made at the behest of the Japanese licensors and creators, and they want to make as much money off of their works as possible too, but I thought it was an interesting stance and thought some of you might have thoughts on it. "
Then don't blame people when they don't want the altered product and turn to things like scanlations and fan subs.
It's the simple theory of economics. Supply and demand. If the supply doesn't meet the demand. People will go where they can. You can't put out an altered and inferior product and wonder why no one wants it. Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece are selling well, because they are far closer to the original.
I seriously doubt the name changes in Case Closed/Detective Conan were initiated by the Japanese copyright holder. More likely the US licensors asked permission for these changes and got them. If these changes were something that the Japanese companies were demanding. The changes should be consistent. There is one case in the series that makes me suspect that Gosho Aoyama isn't very happy about the changes. Though it's more speculation. "
Wow you really don't read peoples replies do you? Back on your article endorsing piracy many people multiple times tryied to get it through your head that it was the Japanese licensor or the anime that is the culprit behind the name changes to Detective Conan.
See back when Funimation got the rights to distribute the Detective Conan anime in North America the studio (TMS Entertainment) who made the anime told them to rename the characters with more western friendly names because they thought it would sell better and therefore they would get more royalties. So when VIZ got the rights to distribute the manga in North America to stay consistent with the content already out there for Case Closed (the anime) they changed the names (with the consent of the publisher) as well so as not to confuse fans who might buy both the anime and manga.
You are right that this whole chain of events is probably not something the author of the series wanted but like I said the company behind the anime thought it would make them more money so they did it. If you don't believe me look it up and you will see that is the whole reason behind the changes. Gia is totally right when she said it was the Japanese licensor who was responsible for the name changes.
Anyway I hope this dispels some of your ignorance and arrogant unfounded self-rightousness.
FoxxFireArt
moderator
is online
on March 14, 2010 at 3:48 a.m.
@Konanda: I have not seen the evidence that it was the Japanese copyright holders that demanded the name changes. What I saw was an article talking about the "title change". Even that didn't say that it was requested or demanded by the Japnese copyright holders. Just that there was a legal consideration. I suspect that it was the owners of the Dark Horse comic title of "Conan" that challenged the title, or FUNimation thought there would be a problem and contacted the Japanese company to create a new title. Don't you find it just a bit odd that a series called "Detective Conan" , such a simple and straight to the point title, in Japan was changed to "Case Closed"? It's not as if it is some overly Japanese sounding title, such as Shakugan no Shana, Seto no Hanayome, or Nagasarete Airantou.
Titles really don't matter in the grand scheme of things. If One Piece was renamed Pirate Adventures. As long as the story isn't changed it matters little. It would still be One Piece.
The facts are that the name changes aren't consistent. At times FUNimation uses one name and VIZ uses another at times.
For example, two of the major villains in the series are codenamed "Gin" and "Vodka", but in the Case Closed manga version they are called "Melkior" and "Kaspar" (seen in Volume 4). How are these two names more English friendly? You can't say that it was because the names are liquors. They kept Haibara, old code name "Sherry". Not to mention that this is a murder mystery series where they talk about all kinds of poisons and way to kill others. I don't see how you could think it would be alright to read and see graphic crime scenes, but it somehow be beyond the pale to read the names of liquors. Even in the FUNimation DVDs I've been hearing the Japanese with subtitles keeps their Japanese names. (I'm currently looking into it to see if FUNImation also renamed Gin and Vodka.) FUNimation offers an alternative for the original names. VIZ offers none.
Further, two of the police officers in US manga series keep their original Japanese names in the VIZ publication for some reason. Their names are Takagi and Satou (Satou was introduced in Volume 21). They are reappearing characters.
Another much more dramatic alteration that isn't at all consistent between VIZ and FUNimation. A major character who was introduced in Volume 18 of the manga is called Ai Haibara, real name Shiho Miyano. In VIZ she is renamed Anita Hailey, but FUNimation reportedly renamed her Vi Graythorn. Don't you think these two different names would "confuse readers"? She's not a minor character at all.
If the name changes were demands from the Japanese company. They should be consistent in both versions. There is no reason for them to tell FUNimation to use one set of names but tell VIZ to use others.
I'm sure the copyright holders consented to the alterations that 4Kids did to One Piece, and that was utter butchery. Entire canon story arcs were removed, skin colors were changed, tattoos were removed, guns were replaced with squirt guns, and cleavage lines were erased. It didn't make it right or good. What VIZ is doing to Detective Conan is equivalent to what 4Kids did to One Piece. I can even show a scene where the translation for one case was wrong in the VIZ publication.
What I'm saying is that if you are going to change series to ways they were not intended and you are altering the "story". Don't then complain when people don't want to buy it and go to scanlations or fan subs. That's the risk you take when you make such drastic alterations, and refuse to offer an alternative. I, personally, would of never known what the real One Piece anime was like if I hadn't found the fan sub sites. Though, now that FUNimation's website is posting One Piece subtitled and no real seen editing. I wont watch fan subs again. Hell, I haven't been on a fan sub site at all since I discovered FUNimation's video site and selection. There is no reason to go anywhere else.
Editing wouldn't be wrong... there should be the option to have either the edited or the undeited release...
That way there are options to that?
For example there are music CDs which are "Clean" and some that include all the: !@#$%^&*
Why not?
Yes Gia did say that sometimes there is disagreement between the original creator of the a work and the Japanese company that owns it when it comes to edits but what I got is that the Japanese have more say of what gets changed edited then you think. They still own it ,I don't really see them being force to change much unless their willing to let it get change.
I still don't know how Eiichirou Oda felt about the 4Kids One Piece dub, though. In all honesty, Japanese creators are creating for Japanese audiences. If their work gets licensed in the US, that money is relatively gravy for them, so they don't always get very involved in the localization. But sometimes they're very hands-on, instead.
Since I actually take credit for being THE person responsible for Funi removing the unedited Strike Witches episodes from their streams, I'll interpret that John was winking at me. ;)
I understand the title change, but not the excuse that everyone keeps mentioning. What I suspect is that FUNimation foresaw a possible copyright infringement by using the name "CONAN" in bold print on the cover. Do to Dark Horse already publishing a "CONAN" series comic book. That, or perhaps the holder of the Arthur Conan Doyle estate didn't consent for whatever reason. I believe the company brought this conflict to the attention of the Japanese copyright holder and they then came up with the Case Closed title.
This theory makes more sense then the Japanese company demanding the title change. Why would they have a problem with a title like Detective Conan that is so easy to translate to English? It's not as if it was a title such as Shakugan no Shana.
I still suspect that the "Name" changes were actually the US companies ideas. Part of my evidence is that the name changes aren't consistent. Both VIZ and FUNimation often use different names in their publication of the series. Case in Point. There are two characters that were introduced in the manga in the same volume. Detective Miwako Sato and Inspector Ninsaburo Shiratori in Volume 21 of Case Closed. I was at the bookstore today and looked it up. In this volume, Sato's name was completely unchanged, but Shiratori was renamed "Inspector Santos". Sato in the comics plays a much larger role in the series then Shiratori. There are numerous story arcs dedicated to the love story between Sato and Detective Takagi (who's name was also unchanged).
Also, in the manga. They renamed two of the big villains in the series from Gin and Vodka to Melkior and Kaspar. How the hell are those names more easy for a US audience??
The whole theme in the Japanese version is that all the bad guys, The Black Organization, are code named after liquors. Gin, Vodka, Vermouth, Chianti, Kir, Korn, Sherry, Bourbon. There is currently a character that is suspected of being Bourbon in the Japanese publication. No one knows yet what Bourbon really looks like. There are often scenes showing this person who the manga is implying might be Bourbon drinking bourbon with close ups of the bottle.
Often times when Conan is thinking about this villain he has yet to meet and there is an image of a bourbon bottle in the panel.
If these name change choices were coming from the behest of the Japanese company. They should match in both forms. FUNimation alters everyone's names, but uses the proper names on the DVDs' subtitles(so I hear). VIZ changes many of the reappearing cast names, but leaves the names of the suspects alone. FUNimation changed the names of the three kids from Conan's class completely, but I hear VIZ only changed their first names and left their last names alone.
Supposedly, VIZ followed FUNimation's lead so there would be some consistency, but there really isn't any.
As with One Piece and 4Kids. Just because a Japanese copyright holder signs off on a change. That doesn't make it good or right. 4Kids removed entire canon story arcs, but they must of gotten some level of consent to do such drastic editing. What VIZ is doing to the Case Closed series is similar. Yes, FUNimation also makes a lot of changes as well, but I'm currently looking in to confirm that the DVDs' subtitles actually use the Japanese names. A relative of mine is renting two of the movies for me off Netflix so I can confirm this.
The "clean" and regular versions of music is different, because Walmart has 25% of the mainstream music industry, they either pay the long dollar to press a "clean" version or lose 25% of sales on a title that might sell hundreds of thousands or millions of discs. Anime on the other hand, often only sells a hundredth of that quantity.
It's hard enough to sell ONE product. Splitting it into two means a higher production cost, unhappy retailers (who then have to decide whether to stock half as much of each, just one or the other, twice as much, or none at all), and more often than not, confused consumers who will buy the wrong one no matter how much you try to make it clear what each one is.
Back when anime came out on VHS, there would be two of every VHS tape: sub and dub. And that was bad enough, believe me!
Again, this doesn't cover changes made at the behest of the Japanese licensors and creators, and they want to make as much money off of their works as possible too, but I thought it was an interesting stance and thought some of you might have thoughts on it.
The title change does make sense... but since the origin is Japanese I think it wouldn't be a problem to have the name, it's obvious that the animation could in no way be tied to Conan.
Name Changing is dumb! I mean my name is Geovanny, that's Italian for John, or in spanish Juan... Just cause I'm in the U.S. doesn't mean I am automatically re-named John or if I cross the boarder to Mexico I'm not going to be Juan... right? So there is no point in changing the name!
Gin and Vodka are Gin and Vodka!
I am a little dissapointed since VIZ and FUNimation should know that...
@JD: @gia: Although I understand the fact that it would not be viable... but then what about an option on the DVD/BD?
I mean I remember when DVDs had an option of Widescreen and Fullscreen... Why not have an option? I think I understand the reasoning behind the editing of the anime but still there should be an option...
Bwahahahaha. Winner.
Then don't blame people when they don't want the altered product and turn to things like scanlations and fan subs.
It's the simple theory of economics. Supply and demand. If the supply doesn't meet the demand. People will go where they can. You can't put out an altered and inferior product and wonder why no one wants it. Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece are selling well, because they are far closer to the original.
I seriously doubt the name changes in Case Closed/Detective Conan were initiated by the Japanese copyright holder. More likely the US licensors asked permission for these changes and got them. If these changes were something that the Japanese companies were demanding. The changes should be consistent.
There is one case in the series that makes me suspect that Gosho Aoyama isn't very happy about the changes. Though it's more speculation.
@FoxxFireArt said:
Wow you really don't read peoples replies do you? Back on your article endorsing piracy many people multiple times tryied to get it through your head that it was the Japanese licensor or the anime that is the culprit behind the name changes to Detective Conan.
See back when Funimation got the rights to distribute the Detective Conan anime in North America the studio (TMS Entertainment) who made the anime told them to rename the characters with more western friendly names because they thought it would sell better and therefore they would get more royalties. So when VIZ got the rights to distribute the manga in North America to stay consistent with the content already out there for Case Closed (the anime) they changed the names (with the consent of the publisher) as well so as not to confuse fans who might buy both the anime and manga.
You are right that this whole chain of events is probably not something the author of the series wanted but like I said the company behind the anime thought it would make them more money so they did it. If you don't believe me look it up and you will see that is the whole reason behind the changes. Gia is totally right when she said it was the Japanese licensor who was responsible for the name changes.
Anyway I hope this dispels some of your ignorance and arrogant unfounded self-rightousness.
I have not seen the evidence that it was the Japanese copyright holders that demanded the name changes. What I saw was an article talking about the "title change". Even that didn't say that it was requested or demanded by the Japnese copyright holders. Just that there was a legal consideration. I suspect that it was the owners of the Dark Horse comic title of "Conan" that challenged the title, or FUNimation thought there would be a problem and contacted the Japanese company to create a new title.
Don't you find it just a bit odd that a series called "Detective Conan" , such a simple and straight to the point title, in Japan was changed to "Case Closed"? It's not as if it is some overly Japanese sounding title, such as Shakugan no Shana, Seto no Hanayome, or Nagasarete Airantou.
Titles really don't matter in the grand scheme of things. If One Piece was renamed Pirate Adventures. As long as the story isn't changed it matters little. It would still be One Piece.
The facts are that the name changes aren't consistent. At times FUNimation uses one name and VIZ uses another at times.
For example, two of the major villains in the series are codenamed "Gin" and "Vodka", but in the Case Closed manga version they are called "Melkior" and "Kaspar" (seen in Volume 4). How are these two names more English friendly? You can't say that it was because the names are liquors. They kept Haibara, old code name "Sherry". Not to mention that this is a murder mystery series where they talk about all kinds of poisons and way to kill others. I don't see how you could think it would be alright to read and see graphic crime scenes, but it somehow be beyond the pale to read the names of liquors.
Even in the FUNimation DVDs I've been hearing the Japanese with subtitles keeps their Japanese names. (I'm currently looking into it to see if FUNImation also renamed Gin and Vodka.) FUNimation offers an alternative for the original names. VIZ offers none.
Further, two of the police officers in US manga series keep their original Japanese names in the VIZ publication for some reason. Their names are Takagi and Satou (Satou was introduced in Volume 21). They are reappearing characters.
Another much more dramatic alteration that isn't at all consistent between VIZ and FUNimation. A major character who was introduced in Volume 18 of the manga is called Ai Haibara, real name Shiho Miyano. In VIZ she is renamed Anita Hailey, but FUNimation reportedly renamed her Vi Graythorn. Don't you think these two different names would "confuse readers"? She's not a minor character at all.
If the name changes were demands from the Japanese company. They should be consistent in both versions. There is no reason for them to tell FUNimation to use one set of names but tell VIZ to use others.
I'm sure the copyright holders consented to the alterations that 4Kids did to One Piece, and that was utter butchery. Entire canon story arcs were removed, skin colors were changed, tattoos were removed, guns were replaced with squirt guns, and cleavage lines were erased. It didn't make it right or good. What VIZ is doing to Detective Conan is equivalent to what 4Kids did to One Piece. I can even show a scene where the translation for one case was wrong in the VIZ publication.
What I'm saying is that if you are going to change series to ways they were not intended and you are altering the "story". Don't then complain when people don't want to buy it and go to scanlations or fan subs. That's the risk you take when you make such drastic alterations, and refuse to offer an alternative. I, personally, would of never known what the real One Piece anime was like if I hadn't found the fan sub sites. Though, now that FUNimation's website is posting One Piece subtitled and no real seen editing. I wont watch fan subs again. Hell, I haven't been on a fan sub site at all since I discovered FUNimation's video site and selection. There is no reason to go anywhere else.
I don't know why the changed they title to Case Closed but the name changes occuring because of TMS Entertainment in Japan is legit.