Watch & Learn: TRIGUN #17

Topic started by No_name_here on Dec. 21, 2010. Last post by Faint 3 years, 8 months ago.
Post by No_name_here (856 posts) See mini bio Level 11
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  How many more adolescent fever dreams will you haunt, Rem?
 How many more adolescent fever dreams will you haunt, Rem?

Huh… I guess this world wasn’t  “window dressing” after all. To the show's credit, the new West of TRIGUN actually being a settlement of extraterrestrial human refuges is a sensible explanation that’s quick, simple and doesn’t actually require much gobblygook. You’ve got enough facts here to fill the rest in on your own.

You know, I’ve been bringing up the similarities to superheroes I see in every episode of this and, would you believe, this one actually reminds me of a discussion on the history of DC comics I went to recently. Among many other things, the talk brought up how many superheroes’ mythology were made up by the cartoonists as they went along and I can’t help but feel like I’m seeing something similar, here. Granted, they have dropped hints about Rem quite a few times so far, but I can just picture the mangaka sitting down at his drawing board right before this part and saying, “Hey, wait a sec... what if they came from outer space?”

There's something romantic about that, isn't there? It's a gutsy kind of storytelling, even if my suppositions aren’t totally correct. It's like punk rock. You’ve got a story driven forward by spit and fire. The logic doesn’t always make sense, the connections rarely join neatly… but you do feel like you’re riding on something that's alive.  

The cadence of this episode reminded me a lot of the more Kubrick-style flashbacks in EVANGELION. Hell, it’s got a lot of 2001 in it. Vash and Knives’ angelic nature is touched upon, but not explained, as is their subsequent Cain and Abel-style separation. There's a lot to be inferred.

Also, this might not be the first anime I’ve watched where a young kid’s crushing heavily on his slightly-older-but-still-illegally-out-of-the-age-range minder, but it’s the first one I’ve seen that isn’t by Gainax. There's some sense of... progress in that, I feel.

Watch this episode, “Rem Savarem”,” below and decide for yourself, then read my comments on the previous episode here.    

   

Tom Pinchuk’s the writer of  HYBRID BASTARDS!  &  UNIMAGINABLE . Order them on Amazon   here  &   here .  Follow him on Twitter:  @tompinchuk

Post by CNKandrew (1 posts) See mini bio Level 3
A nice bit of backstory in this episode, yeah.
Post by FoxxFireArt (2,643 posts) See mini bio Level 25
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A problem I have with Trigun is the same problem I had with Firefly. I can understand the whole idea of a sort of future-western world, but that doesn't explain why in Firefly people were still using single action revolvers and double barreled shotguns. Meryl's even using dillingers.
How is it that all this technology became "lost" to the point no one knows how to work any of it, other than a select few? It's as if they went from space travel to hicks in a matter of decades. Kind of reminds one of the Star Wars prequels. All this technology that suddenly disappears later on.
 
I don't take issue when a story is being created by the original author and there are twists. I just hate it when new writers come into a series not their own and start adding to the mythos. Case in point, the origin of Batman. 
The origin started off as a rather real tale of a young boy who lost his family to an act of senseless random crime. It's something that a lot of people can relate to. What made Bruce a hero and an example to others is that he didn't stay a victim. That was the driving force to be Batman and right wrongs. It was his choice. It was easy for readers to connect with and admire him. A young reader who had tragedy in life could look at that story and think they can overcome their problems.
 
Fast forward a few decades later, other writers come along and decide it would be a good idea to not make Thomas and Martha Wayne's murders a random crime, but part of a grand conspiracy to just make it look like a random crime. That was horrible. It completely ripped Batman away from the audience. Who the hell can relate to such a convoluted mess?
The elegance of Bruce's story is how he came from a rich family, but fell victim to such a 'common' crime. Perhaps I'm over analyzing this, but it felt as if it was part of the grand equalizer in death. If you are rich or poor. You can't escape it. A simple twist of fate took what was an average child and made him into a hero. A simple mugging gone wrong and a no name criminal set into motion what would become the worst enemy crime in Gotham would ever have.
 
Recently, they have started to make it seem as if the bat as been a symbol or part of the Wayne family for generations. Once again, it's a horrible idea that even further alienates  the audience. It makes it seem as if it was Bruce's destiny to be a Batman in some form and he never had a choice in the matter from the start. Bruce Wayne no longer feels like a normal person who made himself into a hero, but some kind of warrior of destiny. As if when time began, it was moving toward making him Batman. It sound melodramatic, but ultimately I think makes him less interesting.
(As you can tell, I feel somewhat passionate about said issue. lol)
 
At least with manga series, these kind of alterations come from the very same writer who started the series. I remember hearing that Goku wasn't suppose to be an alien. That was something they just made up later. 
I would argue that the space part was added for this series later. There have been hints since the near the beginning. The way he could so easily use the "lost technology". Japanese culture seems to like to keep origin stories more mysteries to be learned slowly. Few series tell the full story right up front.
 
Anime/manga really do love the young boy adoring over an older woman, but I don't think it's the same thing here. Vash seems to look to Rem as more of a mother figure. It's the Gainax version of the theme that make it more sexual.
My guess is that it's because if the gender roles were reversed it would be creepier.
Post by rubberluffy (589 posts) See mini bio Level 16
@FoxxFireArt said:

I would argue that the space part was added for this series later. There have been hints since the near the beginning. The way he could so easily use the "lost technology". Japanese culture seems to like to keep origin stories more mysteries to be learned slowly. Few series tell the full story right up front.

The second chapter of the Trigun manga features the line "It was not so long ago that we fell to this barren planet.  Mankind has depended on the strange machinery left behind in the escape pods to build their cities.  There are 7 major cities, and in a hundred years, when man started adapting to this new environment, nightmare struck."  Then it mentions Vash destroying July.  It was all right up front.  The anime removed a lot of hints as to Vash's history, including a scene of him calming the plant powering that runaway train from some episodes back.
 
Do they even mention in the anime that the planet is called Gunsmoke?
Post by darfox8 (25 posts) See mini bio Level 6
When Trigun was picked up to be done in animated form the manga wasn't so far along. So the mangaka and the directors of the show sat down and had a jam session. They supposedly stayed up all night discussing and arguing what the general arc of the show was going to be. After they agreed on that they pretty much went there separate ways, the mangaka kept on with the manga and the show producers created the show. That's why the manga and anime are very similar to one point and then diverge(this episode is pretty much the diverging point).
 
So they definitely knew this was the backstory they just probably didn't know how it was going to shake out.
Post by zaldar (1,269 posts) See mini bio Level 15
Correct, I don't think the backstory was made up on the fly here.  And i disagree that is a good way to tell a story.  See my issues with western comics and the issues with batman stated above.  You have to know where you are going before you can get there.
Post by No_name_here (856 posts) See mini bio Level 11
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@FoxxFireArt: The thing is... Batman's run continuously for 75 years, while DRAGONBALL has only be around since the 80s. These kind of things inevitably come up. DBZ didn't even run that long and it was infamous for having padded episodes (I.E. made up as they went along) of drawn out fights because they ran out of material from the manga.
Post by No_name_here (856 posts) See mini bio Level 11
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@zaldar said:
" Correct, I don't think the backstory was made up on the fly here.  And i disagree that is a good way to tell a story.  See my issues with western comics and the issues with batman stated above.  You have to know where you are going before you can get there. "
It might not be,but it happens a lot more often than you think, and in every field. It's just that a lot of writers don't admit to it as freely, but it's inevitable result of telling a serialized story that hasn't already been completed in some other form. It's very much like a magic show, trying to keep your eye off one area of the stage while the magician scrambling to prepare his next trick.
Post by Count_Zero (344 posts) See mini bio Level 20
As far as the gun tech goes, some more modern real world guns are used than old-west guns, I've seen a few guys using AK-47s and that sort of thing, and why not, really? Many modern real world guns were designed to just work, and if they broke to be really, really easy to fix (there's a story I heard of someone clearing a jam on an Uzi by hitting a guy with it).
Post by FoxxFireArt (2,643 posts) See mini bio Level 25
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@Tom_Pinchuk: 
I understand the difficulties of keeping a series running for so many decades, but that doesn't excuse altering the very birth of the hero. It seems arrogant that rather than trying to bring the character forward through a story, and giving him a new experience. These writers look to graft themselves to the beginning of the hero.
 
They diminish the essence of what made him the hero for their own personal glory. Rather than trying to butcher his past, they should be concentrating on the experiences ahead, but DC is just at fault for even allowing it. He has a huge rogues gallery, numerous love-interests, and an extended adopted family. What more could you ask for in story material? Even the Arkham Asylum game told a superb Batman story without tampering with the past.
 
Publishers are spending so much time now rebooting heroes. They don't seemed that concerned with moving the story forward, because they keep looking backward.
Changing the very origin of Batman in this way is as weird as the first Batman movie making the Joker the killer of Bruce's parents. The difference is that we are suppose to consider this comic version canon.
 
One of the reasons given by Joe Quesada about why they removed the very marriage of Peter Parker to Mary Jane was that he felt that new readers couldn't relate to a married super hero. My rather passionate disdain for this event and all those following aside, if the focus is to try and get the reader to relate to the protagonist more. You aren't going to do that by pushing the hero away. Having Batman being a human was unique. It gave readers the idea that anyone could do this. Anyone could be a great detective, train them self, and help those who can't. Making him some kind of destined warrior removes that feeling. That's why Batman is such a great character. Unlike other heroes who were born with powers or got them through accidents. Bruce Wayne made himself from the ground up.
Making him the result of a grand conspiracy pushes him away from human.

You are using the Dragon Ball Z anime as an example. I'm talking about the core Dragon Ball manga. Originally, Goku was just suppose to be a simple, happy boy with a tail (a Journey to the West parody) After Goku won the World's Martial Arts Tournament, there really was no real direction for the story. I don't believe the story was actually suppose to of gone past this point and was never planned for. So, they made him an alien and the series became all about the over the top fighting. For the anime, they had to add fillers, because after they altered Goku's origin the story fell to the side.
Post by Lurkero (409 posts) See mini bio Level 7
@Tom_Pinchuk: @FoxxFireArt: 
I'm not a comic book reader, but the things I hear about Batman on the side do not impress me at all (mostly Wikipedia, message boards, and podcasts).
 
FoxxFireArt has a good point mentioning Brand New Day. It seems like the reason why writers of Superhero stories are reluctant to kill anyone or move characters forward is because they want things to be intentionally stagnant, and ultimately that lessens my enjoyment. 
 
I didn't even know the story of Batman's parents being killed by conspiracy was canon. I thought that was a random Batman Brave and the Bold episode plot. It takes away from Batman's relatable qualities for no reason but to retread old ground rather than moving him forward. Also, time traveling omega beams? C'mon! 
 
Can you say Goku's origin was changed even though it was never made clear? He always had the tail so he was never human, but he didn't know who he was.
 
Top bring it back to Trigun. It always seemed kind of "spacey", "lost technology" society to me so it didn't bother me too much when the space stuff started coming in.
Post by Faint (6 posts) See mini bio Level 6
this is one of the best episodes and the show, as well as when it turns from more of a comedy into something with a little meaning. you'll enjoy the show a lot more from this point forward.
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