Watch & Learn: TIGER & BUNNY #7

Topic started by No_name_here on Aug. 21, 2011. Last post by Marshal Victory 2 years, 10 months ago.
Post by No_name_here (854 posts) See mini bio Level 11
Staff
Tiger's obviously taking this discussion very seriously.
Tiger's obviously taking this discussion very seriously.

The kill-or-don’t-kill conundrum returns!

I’m honestly a little ticked by how this is showing up again, here, since there was quite an ethical dialog about it going on in the talkbacks while I was watching DEATH NOTE and TRIGUN. See, I often feel like I’m “over” certain thematic discussions if I’ve already seen them explored in something else before, so it’s doubly-amusing to me that this is showing up in a superhero story. I’ve seen the merits of capital punishment argued many times in the likes of BATMAN: KNIGHTFALL, KINGDOM COME and basically any comic relating to the Punisher since I was a kid first getting in to comics, so the whole debate’s a little old hat for me. Not to say that it doesn’t make for a good story, but it’s something I can’t get too riled up about since I went through the whole back-and-forth about it years ago.

If I’d watched DEATH NOTE or TRIGUN at earlier age, I might have held a strong opinion about Kira was justified for killing criminals (only to later realize that he really wasn’t, because he’d never have all the facts at hand) and then I might’ve had a strong opinion about how Vash was correct in his avoidance of lethal force (only to realize that it’s maybe less correct in a lawless wasteland without any visible prison system.)

And here we are again, with the discussion getting started all over with the introduction of this rogue and very extreme vigilante, Lunatic. I’m sure plenty of you lunatics are going to have some blood in your teeth about how he’s actually got the right idea and how all of these Hero TV simps are idiots. For me, the weight of his argument about the proper handling of bad guys is going to depend on whether the creators of this show just copy superhero comics’ “rules” or if they actually take advantage of the storytelling benefits of a limited series like this.

I often hear detractors of Batman bring up how the characters’ refusal to kill villains is unacceptable enough to ruin all of his stories for them. Isn’t he ultimately losing more lives in the long run by letting the Joker live? What people kind-of miss about that is that, in a more realistic scenario, the Joker would just rot in jail forever, or until a court of law decided he needed to be executed. Him breaking out of jail, over and over again, is just one of the conceits of an ongoing serial you need to accept the same way you accept how all the characters never age that much. Fans want to see popular villains come back and if, say, DBZ was still running today, you can be pretty sure that Frieza, Cell and Buu would have all been resurrected several times over.

So, to bring it all back to TIGER & BUNNY, I’m definitely siding with Kotetsu and his frustration over not being able to save the criminals’ lives, too - - even though I won't be surprised if many of you think he's a dummy for doing that.

Whoa… I got going, there. Who says this show doesn’t make you think?

Watch this episode "The Wolf Knows What the Ill Beast Thinks” below, decide for yourself and then read my comments on the previous episode here.

Tom Pinchuk’s the writer of HYBRID BASTARDS! & UNIMAGINABLE. Order them on Amazon here & here. Follow him on Twitter: @tompinchuk

Post by Marshal Victory (1,864 posts) See mini bio Level 13

So hopen the rumors of a second season are true.They build layers  of plots on this show where you normaly dont see any more .What you think is a filler episode becomes a biger part of the over all story.Needless to say but little details in this show matter more as it goes on. 
 
wount say much more than that with out spoiling.Tho i will warn as with the nubmer 1 episode theirs some sub problems threw out the series.Off screen voices are not subed or just partily.Realy hope they fix this for the dvd .Orhave some good voice acting.I could see the two main voice actors from samuri  champloo doing tiger & bunny.
Post by Lurkero (398 posts) See mini bio Level 7
The difference between DBZ and Batman is that in DBZ heaven and hell are fully operational and KNOWN to Goku and his friends. This allows for the writer to use creative license and find ways to legitimately kill people, yet still have them exist.
 
Whenever someone dies in Batman, including Batman, it is explained by some stupid paradox that ultimately results in the hero or villain not actually being "killed" but "displaced". Batman didn't die, he was sent through time. Steve Rogers didn't die, he was sent through time. Barry Allen didn't die, he was sent through time. This is not always the case, but it is common. Being sent through time is much lamer than simply creating an afterlife within your world.
 
What I am trying to get at is that instead of killing the Joker, Batman and the police capture him, imprison him, and he escapes. The alternative is revival from the afterlife like in DBZ. Since DC and Marvel storylines try to be tied closer to reality they don't effectively use the afterlife as a way to keep characters in limbo. If the afterlife idea was more open to Western comics, I bet more characters would die and revive all the time.
 
When it comes to Tiger and Bunny there is an argument for not killing some villains because so far nobody has exhibited the desire to WIPE OUT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE! That is another difference. In Western comics many villains plot to kill millions and are sometimes successful at killing substantial amounts of people. How can you willingly keep someone alive after they have posed a threat like that and have the ABILITY to do that again? I know I wouldn't want to be the prison guard that has to be near Mr. Freeze or Killer Croc, so why should anyone have to risk their life around these villains that are such threats?
 
In Tiger and Bunny we are about to see another villain that poses such a threat to society that he should have never been allowed to continue living. I'll hold off further ranting until Tom gives his opinion on that matter.
 
Also, Lunatic is awesome.
Post by CapeBarnes (492 posts) See mini bio Level 18
Lunatic is awesome indeed. Now the show got interesting for me at this point.
Post by Hellos (2,482 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@Lurkero said:

The difference between DBZ and Batman is that in DBZ heaven and hell are fully operational and KNOWN to Goku and his friends. This allows for the writer to use creative license and find ways to legitimately kill people, yet still have them exist. Whenever someone dies in Batman, including Batman, it is explained by some stupid paradox that ultimately results in the hero or villain not actually being "killed" but "displaced". Batman didn't die, he was sent through time. Steve Rogers didn't die, he was sent through time. Barry Allen didn't die, he was sent through time. This is not always the case, but it is common. Being sent through time is much lamer than simply creating an afterlife within your world.  What I am trying to get at is that instead of killing the Joker, Batman and the police capture him, imprison him, and he escapes. The alternative is revival from the afterlife like in DBZ. Since DC and Marvel storylines try to be tied closer to reality they don't effectively use the afterlife as a way to keep characters in limbo. If the afterlife idea was more open to Western comics, I bet more characters would die and revive all the time.  When it comes to Tiger and Bunny there is an argument for not killing some villains because so far nobody has exhibited the desire to WIPE OUT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE! That is another difference. In Western comics many villains plot to kill millions and are sometimes successful at killing substantial amounts of people. How can you willingly keep someone alive after they have posed a threat like that and have the ABILITY to do that again? I know I wouldn't want to be the prison guard that has to be near Mr. Freeze or Killer Croc, so why should anyone have to risk their life around these villains that are such threats? In Tiger and Bunny we are about to see another villain that poses such a threat to society that he should have never been allowed to continue living. I'll hold off further ranting until Tom gives his opinion on that matter.  Also, Lunatic is awesome.


  
 
I think you might have the wrong idea. There are dozens of afterlifes with the God Pantheons on Earth alone, not counting Mephisto or the actual Devil that was torturing Ghost Rider for a good while in hell. If Marvel wanted Steve chilling out with some dead guys drinking mead in Asgard, it could have been done. So I wouldn't say it's a lack of western comics wanting to go into the 'Afterlife' bit, just trying to come up with slightly more ridiculous methods of bringing back the dead, but staying away from a magic plot dragon that can raise them in a heart beat.
Post by zaldar (1,222 posts) See mini bio Level 15
Him breaking out of jail, over and over again, is just one of the conceits of an ongoing serial you need to accept the same way you accept how all the characters never age that much. Fans want to see popular villains come back and if, say, DBZ was still running today, you can be pretty sure that Frieza, Cell and Buu would have all been resurrected several times over.
 
Never got this far in the show but I expect it didn't handle it as well as say death note which is still one of the best anime or shows in any genre to deal with this kind of stuff for me.  The above quote though is a perfect example of why I don't read comics and can't stand shows like DBZ....I can't get over those conceits.  I come to this from literature specifically science fiction literature (Arthur C Clark, Asimov,) Watchman, Preacher, and the like are the only  comics I can stand really maybe this has a good bit to do with our difference in tastes don't know.  Anyway glad you are still likeing this show.
Post by metalsnakezero (665 posts) See mini bio Level 16
I don't know where you are getting that we liked killing the bad guy from. For characters not killing people makes them better people. It is hard to say if killing the bad guy is the right thing to do, guess it depends on the situation. 
Post by No_name_here (854 posts) See mini bio Level 11
Staff

@metalsnakezero said:

I don't know where you are getting that we liked killing the bad guy from. For characters not killing people makes them better people. It is hard to say if killing the bad guy is the right thing to do, guess it depends on the situation.

When I was reviewing DEATH NOTE, there were just as many users rooting for Light as there were those wanting him to get his comeuppance.

Post by No_name_here (854 posts) See mini bio Level 11
Staff

@Marshal Victory said:

So hopen the rumors of a second season are true.They build layers of plots on this show where you normaly dont see any more .What you think is a filler episode becomes a biger part of the over all story.Needless to say but little details in this show matter more as it goes on. wount say much more than that with out spoiling.

I think it's funny how "filler" is enough of an issue to be have a term in anime fandom. It's usually just called a "one-shot" in other circles of serialized storytelling, without as much negative connotation.

Post by No_name_here (854 posts) See mini bio Level 11
Staff

@zaldar said:

The above quote though is a perfect example of why I don't read comics and can't stand shows like DBZ....I can't get over those conceits. I come to this from literature specifically science fiction literature (Arthur C Clark, Asimov,) Watchman, Preacher, and the like are the only comics I can stand really maybe this has a good bit to do with our difference in tastes don't know. Anyway glad you are still likeing this show.

Every niche has its own conceits to get over, it just depends which ones you can get used to. I didn't find it believable in DEATH NOTE, for instance, that a teenage male Light would react with annoyance when a famous, beautiful celebrity/model was showing up at his door and begging him to tell her what to do. But that's part of the genre.

Post by No_name_here (854 posts) See mini bio Level 11
Staff

@Lurkero said:

The difference between DBZ and Batman is that in DBZ heaven and hell are fully operational and KNOWN to Goku and his friends. This allows for the writer to use creative license and find ways to legitimately kill people, yet still have them exist. Whenever someone dies in Batman, including Batman, it is explained by some stupid paradox that ultimately results in the hero or villain not actually being "killed" but "displaced". Batman didn't die, he was sent through time. Steve Rogers didn't die, he was sent through time. Barry Allen didn't die, he was sent through time. This is not always the case, but it is common. Being sent through time is much lamer than simply creating an afterlife within your world. What I am trying to get at is that instead of killing the Joker, Batman and the police capture him, imprison him, and he escapes. The alternative is revival from the afterlife like in DBZ. Since DC and Marvel storylines try to be tied closer to reality they don't effectively use the afterlife as a way to keep characters in limbo. If the afterlife idea was more open to Western comics, I bet more characters would die and revive all the time. When it comes to Tiger and Bunny there is an argument for not killing some villains because so far nobody has exhibited the desire to WIPE OUT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE! That is another difference. In Western comics many villains plot to kill millions and are sometimes successful at killing substantial amounts of people. How can you willingly keep someone alive after they have posed a threat like that and have the ABILITY to do that again? I know I wouldn't want to be the prison guard that has to be near Mr. Freeze or Killer Croc, so why should anyone have to risk their life around these villains that are such threats? In Tiger and Bunny we are about to see another villain that poses such a threat to society that he should have never been allowed to continue living. I'll hold off further ranting until Tom gives his opinion on that matter. Also, Lunatic is awesome.

Yeah, you've nailed it. It probably does comes down to different levels of comfort with ideas of the afterlife.

I think it also comes down to whether the characters are in milieu that's like war instead of the status quo. Luke Skywalker can kill dozens of Stormtroopers without a second though because it's part of the rebellion (of course, he then gets cold feet about killing his mass-murdering father.) Superheroes, though, presumably are about upholding the law, so the idea is that Freeze and Kroc would be put into a lockdown where the state would decide when they were killed. Only thing is then, you're never going to see that happen in the ongoing serial because readers want them back.

Post by zaldar (1,222 posts) See mini bio Level 15
@Tom_Pinchuk: hmm light as big on intelligence though and she was a complete and idiot...and she did all most get him caught several times.  I mean when I was his age ditzy unintelligent girls didn't interest me...but then intelligent ugly ones didn't either....
Post by Marshal Victory (1,864 posts) See mini bio Level 13

@Tom_Pinchuk
True but Filler in anime mostly seems to be something out of contect with the manga it was based on.Bleach would be bad for this type of filler most dont like.Some filler imho can be as strong as the story the anime was based on.Where as one shots in comics etc can still influance the overall universe of the comic. The filler in anime mostly does not tie back in to the universe. 
 
Tiger&Bunny ( still hate the shows name sigh) Filler Seems to have been thought out enuff to tie in to the overall story .It barely fits the normal definiton in anime terms.Its filler builds on characters backgrounds it seems . Unlike say most of Bleach filler content.
 
For those thinking the Lunitic is this shows joker.. Dont.Hes not .His actions are not random at all.Their is no chaos in his character.His actions are well thought out  an planed .Where as the joker has plots with in plots .He will do random things.If your compairing to Comic characters. Think http://www.comicvine.com/punisher/29-1525/ far more than http://www.comicvine.com/joker/29-1702/.Anti hero far more than out an out villian. 
 
Hes one of the misses in the show i think.They could have drug out who he was for a bit longer to .But the show has sevrial plots rolling at the same time as well as a overall story arch.Guessing one more would have been to much in their eyes.

Top Editors
Top Posters
Mandatory Network

Submissions can take several hours to be approved.

Save ChangesCancel