@justanormalguy: Are you saying that his Bankai is stronger than some of the top tiers in Marvel?
Thanos can casually destroy a planet while sitting down.
Yamamoto can destroy a city and kill himself in the process...
Hmm tough one there.
@justanormalguy: Under what assumptions are you working with exactly?
Because I have never seen or heard of Kubo even remotely hinting at Yamamoto's power being on the same level that Thanos resides in.
@justanormalguy: I will water it down for your simple mind then. But you really should learn to read big posts it will help you in the long run considering I pointed out everything in that post
You take the word of what a character says because it was placed there by the author with feats that directly contradict what was claimed correct?
The statement from Yamamoto claiming that his Ryujin Jakka can destroy everything is also correct in your eyes too yes?
Or that The Demon Blade Yamato can cut through everything is also true?
You need to realise that when a claim is made saying "A" can do "B" by a character but feats directly contradict said power then have you ever considered that it may not be true. Are you that gullible to believe everything that was said in DBZ was true TO THE LETTER? Just lol
I guess you would believe that if at the start of the series Bulma claimed that she thought Goku could destroy the universe he could, Despite the fact the best showings he had were destroying buildings correct? I mean it was wrote by the Author himself so it must be true right?
@justanormalguy: Ok for one I never said "The manga said this, but I think this is like this" I said that he is putting himself in the characters shoes and trying to act as if he is the character (If he didnt then it would hardly be worth reading), Which means that Cell claiming he is a Solar System Buster should be taken lightly since, oh i dont know HE is the VILLAN. Of corse he is going to hype himself up to his enemies, Thats what I would do but does that mean I can do the things I said I can do? No it does not at all. At no point did he destroy a solar system or give off enough power that destroyed a Solar System so it is not illogical to think that he cant do it at all. I am a firm believer in "I will believe it when I see it" so If he could do it then why the hell did he not show it?
And throwing science into fiction where if dosent belong? Science is in almost all fiction so your point is invalid in that aspect. And more often than not the science in our universe and in a fictional universe are the same or similar give or take a few principles (FTL travel and Big Bang level attacks). The physics is almost definitely the same so we are able to come up with ACCURATE power/speed/strength levels based on what they have SHOWN IN PANEL, not what they have SAID in panel.
If they say one thing and do another that is called a contradiction making the first point invalid, if he can destroy a SS then why didnt he do it? Tell me that one please.
And once again I did not compair murder and fiction, I compaired your logic in regards to manga with a case in court.
"taking into account the evidence Toriyama presented us about how the characters work and the higher their power level, the more they can do with their ki output?" Show me Goku Solar System Busting, or for that matter show me ANY of the top tiers (Cannon only obviously) Solar System busting please and I shall believe you, better yet get a quoat from Akira himself telling you he can and I will agree with everything you will ever say EVER.
Without proof to back up your claims you are the one making the assumptions not us.
I accept his words when HE himself says them (the only way that would happen if he put himself in the manga as the narrator or a similar being as TOAA) not a character in the manga with a different personality and mindset from the writer says them.
Do you think that Ryujin Jakka can really "burn all creation to ashes"? You must do because Yamamoto said it can himself I guess that means that Goku is screwed if he can fire that off then.
Repeating yourself over and over again will not make your statement any more right.
@justanormalguy: I really dont like your attitude "I read one sentence and I didn't continue." That is just ignorance, you made this topic in order to invoke other opinions on the subject (Else you wouldnt have made it at all) and you dont even have the decencey to read them? That is just plain ignorance. You could at least have the decency to read an entire post before disregarding it.
But I digress, Bring science into fiction? If we didnt do this then all debate's would be run on speculation, Unless otherwise stated in the manga itself, the physics of said universe is similar to our own, meaning we can get accurate calclations on ones power based on what they have done. Physics is a constant unless otherwise stated beforehand. The way you are trying to do things is how a troll or fanboy would try to do things, taking claims out of context and blowing them WELL out of proportion to increase the overall strength of a character, This is how we debate fairly. going by your claims the immortals in Baccano cannot be killed at all by anyone outside their own universe who isnt also an immortal regardelss of the power that this person has because it was a claim they made.
If what you said was true then can you tell me why Cell lost? he was easily stronger than everyone if he could Solar System bust so why did he not win? Either his OWN claim about HIS power was false or he died due to PIS. Same goes for Buu and his power.
You also though that Kenpachi could easily defeat EoS Demon Eyes Kyo even though he is superior in every way and your claim was that kenpachi said he was only using a bit of his power and thats why he would win... Really what the hell.
If this is the way you debate then I suggest just to debate with only your RL Friends because nowhere is going to accepct you claims because you have no evidence to back them up. You cant just murder someone and claim infront of a Judge that you didnt and expect to get away with it without evidence to back up your claims.
And if they did? Well I guess every match would have to be redone again.
@justanormalguy: Unfortunatly anyone can say they can do something, but proving they can do it is another matter entirely. Yes it was claimed by people the Cell was a Solar System buster... Did he destroy one to prove his strength? No, so why should I believe what he said if their is no proof to back up a claim like that. Then you will follow up with "Prove that he cant", but before you do ask yoursel this, Has he ever exerted anywhere near enough power to even show he is able to pull it off, or has he destroyed multiple planets (and im talking in excess of 10-20) in one blast? If you can show irrefutable evidence of either then I will believe he can.
You are getting mixed up in what the character says and what the author says. The author being an Omniscient Narrator can make any clain they want to and I would believe them because they are all knowing and I cannot argue against them, On the other hand using what a character in said piece of fiction says was Word of God is silly if they cannot back it up with a display of power. The character IS NOT the author, he must write and convey emotion through the character that are not his own, and that is what you dont understand. The Trade Federation claimed their sheilds were impenetrable, and yet they were broken. A prime example of my point above,
I can claim I can destroy stars and planets with ease, and unless you are me you would not know any better so you would take my word for it? No unless you are an idiot you would ask me to prove it to you or I am unable to do it.
Everything that has been wrote or said is not always true unless it can be proven my friend.
I can give you 3 reasons why the JL will win
1. They have Superman who is stronger and faster than everyone in Naruto FACT
2. They have Flash who is stronger and faster than everyone in Naruto FACT
3. They have Wonder Woman who is stronger and faster than everyone in Naruto FACT
I could go further but what would be the point since any one of them could solo the Akatsuki and the Explosion Corps at the same time
Nobody in the akatsuki is even going to be able to put up a fight, hell even if you pitted the entire naruto verse against ONE of them they would still stomp everyone just because of the immensely vast differences in speed, strength and durability between the 2 groups.
And they have no hope in hell of getting off any of those moves before they are blitzed into oblivion. Tobi could summon the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path only to have it destroyed by Superman or Wonder Woman, Zetsu can only copy chakra based moves which means he is next to useless here. Itachi will be murdered by the flash before he even gets his Sharingan activated, Kisame would be the same but I would let Aquaman take care of him. And Nagato, well its all a matter of how would YOU want him to die, you could have the IMP, Heat Vision or just a straight up beatdown? I will let you decide on his demise, and as far as the others go, hell what is the point of them even trying to fight back having lost some of their strongest members in the span of 5 seconds (And im being generous there).
Hell I think even Aquaman could solo this but lets not put that burden on his sholders since Superman or the Flash can do it even faster.
They just dont have any hope of wining this fight.
1. The Doctor achieved this in his 8 Incarnation where he modified a De-Mat gun into a device he called "The Moment" in which he sealed away all the Time War. The only way they could escape is with outside help which is what I said before. The Master was a means to an end for Rassilon he was only able so send a white point star through the Time Lock which took a good portion of his power (He is the second most powerful time lord behind Omega himself) and transport it towards the Signal that was imprinted in The Master. They entire Time Lord race was unable to escape by any other means, which way my point in the first place.
2. Umm Yes he can... He choses not to, there is a difference. You do know that The Doctor cannot meet himself since he is in one continunity (River Song storyline would be a good example for that, considering they keep meeting in the wrong order)) and yes it can break the laws of the universe (See point 4)
3. It is an empty universe I would like to think he would know where to find them. And no to create the Reality Bomb you need to have an advanced working knowledge of Dalek Technology which the doctor does, and if you had seen the show the only reason the 27 planets were taken from different points in time was in order to break through the time rift in the medusa cascade to enable the bomb to seep through into all conjoining universes and destroy all reality in them.
"Across the entire universe, never stopping, never faltering, never fading. People and planets and stars will become dust. And the dust will become atoms and the atoms will become... nothing. And the wavelength will continue, breaking through the rift at the heart of the Medusa Cascade into every dimension, every parallel, every single corner of creation. This is my ultimate victory, Doctor! The destruction of reality itself! " - Davros
Quoated from the man who created the bomb. There is less than nothing left after they detonate that device, considering it can also destroy the void which IS nothingness.
4. It was never made clear if he could change fixed points in time or if he just chose not to as to avoid the thought of becoming a god in his own right. The TARDIS is only limited by the person using it (once again if you had seen the show that The Master turns it into a paradox device to enable the Toclafane to kill their forefathers without harming them in anyway. Breaking a universal law which according to you cannot be done.
5. It is a non-factor if his speed if peak human or not is irrelevent he wont need it. And yes, he is able to remotely activate devices from inside his TARDIS or through the use of his sonic screwdriver, also if you had watched the show you would know that he can extend the time dilation field outside of the TARDIS to enable himself to walk out and still be in a localized time field (Shown twice during the 11th Doctor's incarnation and another showing earlier on back in the old series cant remember off the top of my head)
6. Yes that much is true but it wont do her any good if she cannot get inside the TARDIS let alone destroy it for that matter.
Omega broke all the laws which you have stated cannot be done, he created life ended it destroyed universes and build new ones. If we are using Universal Laws in this match-up then maybe they should both be below light-speed since nothing can travel faster than light, and THAT is a universal law. You are getting mixed up between what the Time Lords think is right and what can actually be done. The Time Lords are heavily against changing what they consider fixed points in time. Because they can never be sure of the outcome of that desision, does that mean it cannot be done? No not at all. Oh and I never said the TARDIS gave him the ability to attack instantaneously why would you make that up.
No offence but I have seen you debate with other people in other threads and I do not care much for this kind of debate with you, So just to avoid having a debate with you I am going to say that Bernkastel wins. I myself still believe that the doctor can pull this off with that prep time but that is off the record now so just mark me down from bernkastel instead and let that be the end of it.
im not sure what you mean. what I ment is that if he started at one side of the universe in the year 2000 AD he could be at the other side in 700 BC due to the time and spatial warping of the TARDIS. Essentialy speed is a non-factor for the TARDIS since it can go to any point in space and time via the Time Vortex, meaning he can arrive before he has even left.
When its not using the Time Vortex it is considerably FTL given that it traveled 1000+ light years in a few seconds with extra baggage (The Entire Earth was brought along for the ride) which could mean it can go even faster than that.
With the TARDIS he can outclass her in speed since he can move from one side of the universe to the other 100 years in the past if he wants to (easily more but there would be no need). as far as true speed, the TARDIS is capable of vastly FTL speeds should it need to (But it very rarely needs to due to its ability to use the Time Vortex). As for the weapons, he can remotely use almost all his weapons should the need arise from the TARDIS, which also has a gravational tractor beam that is capable of pulling a rather large spaceship from just before the event horizion of a black hole and pulling planets such as the Earth across thousands of light years in seconds and neutron stars at FTL speeds through space (and time I believe but dont hold me to that).
He could also absorb the Heart of the TARDIS for a win but I will not try and argue that method since very little was shown in regards to what powers you gain, but going by what he said it could turn a time lord into a god capable of doing anything he wanted. The best feats it has shown is when Rose absorbed a small ammout of the Heart and had the ability to bring back the dead (but she was unable to control the power and brought him back in a fixed point in time making him immortal, and I believe he lived for 5 billion years or so before his eventual death, but by the end he was nothing more than a mutated head in a very large jar called The Face of Boe)
Those 2 issues were both outlined with the entities The Eternals, who are a race of transcendental beings who are also non coporeal (Granted that they prefer the human form) and extremely powerful probabability warpers, dimensional warpers, spatial warpers, reality warpers etc. etc. which put them well above the likes of Bernkastel, and the doctor turned a group of them into mortals removing all powers they had previous despite their un-godly abilitys.
The TARDIS would not allow her to alter anything to do with probability etc. in its vacinity due to its defences, It would see that as an attack against it and then alter time and space around itself in order to avoid the attack.
And besides a single shot from the De-Mat gun and it would be over, she would be wiped from existence to the point at which she was never there to begin with. Let's not forget she has no previous knowledge of The Doctor. so she has no idea what to expect or what he is able to achieve in 1 hour.
The DWU is easily one of the most powerful universes in fiction, not to mention it is arguabley the most powerful Science Fiction verse in existence given that everyone who is anyone can destroy universes and end reality.
The reality bomb that I mentioned before would be another effective way of ending her (but it would also cost him his own life) considering that it ends EVERYTHING (That includes probability, space, time etc.) Once that bomb is detonated it would be the end for both of them and the universe/reality they are fighting in.
Given what I have seen The Doctor do I believe he can win this, But only due to the prep he was given. My only qualm is if 1 hour would be enough to give him victory. Its either going to be Bernkastel who stomps or The Doctor I doubt there would be a middle ground.
Don't get me wrong, I like Bernkastel alot as a character so im not going against her in spite, I just think that the doctor has a good chance to win with the prep he was given.
If anything I would give it a draw (due to the reality bomb ending both their lives) but if he can do all that within 1 hour then I would say the Doctor could win, if not then she wins with ease and I will concede my argument and accept the outcome.
The Eternals are similar in the fact that they trancend space and time and therefore are not affected by it, but The Doctor still managed to turn them into mortals. He also put his own race and the Dalek Empire into a time lock from which both can never escape. (Both races were notorious for time and spatial manipulation on universial scales (Possiblely multiversel for the Time Lords and Daleks, cosidering that Daleks and Cybermen passed through The Void unscathed to wreck havock in another universe)
The TARDIS travels in the time vortex which is what allows the time and space manipulation via the TARDIS. The TARDIS in theory alters time and space on a universel scale in order to enable it to time travel, But that was not the device that was used to instigate the Time Lock the Doctor used in the Time War.
He used a modified De-Mat gun which, before he modified it had the ability to wipe out any entity from time and space forever (Meaning that they never existed in the first place). The modified version allowed him to wipe out multiple entities numbered into the billions (Including entire planets for that matter) from time and space and place them into a seperate part of time he created himself from which they cannot escape from the inside, Hence they are forever locked in time. And 2 entire races, The Time Lords and the Daleks were unable to escape from it even with their powers over time travel and dimensional travel.
In a straight up fight with no prep The Doctor has no chance against her that much I agree upon, On the other hand I also believe that with prep there are very few people who can stand against him. All im thinking about is if 1 hour would be enough for him to create devices capable of winning the fight, He has shown the ability to create a bomb powerful enough to wipe out all life on the planet in under an hour from nothing but rubbish.
Both fair points, And I would give the win to her in a heartbeat, but it is because he has prep that im having to change things up abit.
The entire Dalek race (who are effectively multi-verse busters with the right technology) who are many billions strong can destroy everything, everywhere, everywhen are afraid of this one man and what he is capable of doing, and the reality bomb would kill her if it was detonated considering that The Beast(or Satan if you will) who is a god-like entity with extremely High Tier Reality Warping powers and has been there since before the begining of the universe would have been unable to stop it from destroying him.
He also managed to defeat not only the entire Dalek race (save 1), but also all the time lords and multiple other races who were taking part in the time war at the same time by sealing them inside a time lock which neither could escape from even by using their best technology, and which can only be opened from the outside by the use of a white point star, no exceptions. And the only reason he done it was because the Time Lords were going to use the Ultimate Sancition, which would end all creation and life and reality and they would exist only as non-coporeal beings with infinite power and knowledge.
He has also beaten The Eternals multiple times and also going as far as to turn a small group of the into mortals, they are another race of powerful beings whos powers are the following but not limited to reality warping, time manipulation, probability manipulation, spatial manipulatio,n dimensional teleportation, transmutation, high end immortality, the ability to destroy living and non-living matter, dream manipulation, illusion creation, dimensional manipulation, resurrection and can also banish an entire race to the Void (Which is more or less the darkness between the universes in which nothing exists, even time).
What im saying is the Doctor has fought many enemies in his time some even more powerful than Bernkastel, and won. In the Doctor Who universe I would be surprised if there are no devices that can negate her powers turning her into a mortal herself.
All im trying to say is that the DW Universe has a device to stop prety much everything possible (Even Reality), but is 1 hour enough time for him to utilize and build such a device to enable him to defeat her? If no then she wins with ease, if yes then he wins with ease.
It is a difficult fight to decide on a winner in my eyes based on what both are capable of.
With the TARDIS he can manipulate time and space with extreme ease so he can get from one side of the universe to the other 500 years ago if he wanted to.
Without it he is around peak human speed with super human reactions.
The problem is the prep and TARDIS considering that both are broken if they are given to him. If he has access to everything he needs then he could recreate the Reality Bomb or something of equal strength and that would be the end of the fight, but the problem is he has no way himself to survive the detonation of it.
He can amp up the TARDIS defence systems to maximum to survive Universe level attacks or just below them, and in the earlier showings of Doctor Who I believe it had a system that predicted if it was going to get attacked in the future so it could dematerialize itself to avoid said attack. He can also destroy the TARDIS for a similar outcome of the Reality Bomb, but like I said he has no way to survive it. Im sure he could create something capable of locking her in a time lock much like he did with multiple races and planets including the entire Time Lord race, which would effectively BFR her from the match.
It is truly a hard match up for me to decide, but if he is capable of doing the above with the TARDIS and prep I would give it to The Doctor, if he cant then Bernkastel takes it.
@ReiKai said:
Now, you claim the attacks are not energy, which is bull. Also, assuming they are only "elemental", it means Kenpachi can evade them without moving. As noted in the earliest part of Bleach, entities such as Hollows, Shinigami and such are incorporeal unless choosing to maintain a material status, thus physical obstructions and the like don't affect them. Also why they can "run" on air and essentially fly in the Living World. Unless you can say the attacks are using Kyo's spiritual energy to create them, then as only Elements in the Physical world, they won't affect Kenpachi as a Shinigami.
Everything else is just power wanking. Kenpachi doesn't need it because he is, simply put, a ridiculous power house. His reiatsu aura pierces the atmosphere and Hollows larger than buildings are killed effortlessly with single blows. As for Ichigo, if it wasn't obvious it was hypersonic, then you weren't paying attention. Byakuya proved very early that even at a fraction of his power he was super-sonic. Senbonzakura is at least as fast as he is, as the petals have less resistance against them. Also that was Seireitei Arc and a number of Cast members were upgraded for Hueco Mundo arc. Also, take the Name of Techniques with a bag of salt. Remember, Shunpo, aka Flash Step, translates to "Light Step" and can be interpreted as stepping at the speed of light. And we have Yoruichi who has been called the "Goddess of Flash" due to her speed and mastery of Shunpo. Does this actually mean it's a lightspeed move? No. Does Sonido, which translates to Sound, move at sound speed? No. It's much faster than that, obviously given both the Speeds already shown. It's just a name.
Im not going to argue with you on that lightning buisness, mainly because I have no intrest in it but mostly because my input wont change a thing anyway in regards to it.
But other things you have stated about bleach are untrue.
1. Shunpo litterly translates to "Lightning Step" not "Light Step" hence where they got "Flash Step" from, because the users movements seem to be done in a flash, its not because they move at the speed of light meerly because their movements seem to be just a flash to on-lookers. Masters of this style are Hypersonic and upwards, and Kenpachi does not have the skill of one of these masters, yes he did keep up with Byakuya but he was not using Flash Step to the fullest at the time. Which puts Kenpachi's speed at an Expert level of the Style at best if he could use it. Which puts his speed up into the high supersonic category. He has never proved that he can go faster than that so claiming he can is pointless unless you have something to back it up with.
2. While the Soul Reapers and Hollows/Arrancar are non-coporeal (With them being souls or spirits) this does not give them the powers of Intangibility (Unable to be affected by physical forces such as walls and telephone poles). The only showning of them passing through a physical object without injury is at the start of the series when Rukia goes through Ichigo's wall. This was clearly just for plot conveinince (Mainly to scare ichigo into beleving that he was talking to a Soul Reaper) after a few chapters when Chad managed to hit a hollow with a telephone pole. (The only exception to this the the Souls that are trapped in the human world, but because they are neither Soul Reaper or Hollow it wont matter too much)
3. They explained the reason they can walk on air after the soul society arc I believe. It is because they can solidify their Reiatsu beneath their feet so that can stand on thin air or in a place with no solid objects. Very Similar to Naruto's ability to walk on water.
4. As far as Kenpachi is concerned, He is only as strong as his strongest showing. Which I am afraid to say are much less than that of Kyo. I have no doubts that he is a very powerful character, and I agree with you that he need to be explored more in the main story so we can see the full extent of his power. But as of right now he is only as strong as his strongest showing, and claiming he is anything above that may prove to be untrue or false later on.
So im going with Kyo due to his insanely greater speed and skills
@justanormalguy: Its not hard work compairing them, considering Toguro has better speed feats, better durability feats and better destructive feats than Kenshiro.
The only thing they would be equals in is strength, and that could be debatable.
He also has a demons physiology not a humans, so there is no way to tell that pressure point manipulation is even going to work, but from the way his body changed when he hit 100% over 100% I doubt he would even be able to touch them at all.
I am only going by what I have seen, and what I have see makes Toguro a faster, more durable and more destructive fighter all round.
Thats why he wins.
Unicron easily takes this given that all versions of Unicron are the same, and that the only thing shown to be able to put him down for any length of time is the autobot matrix which im sure buu does not have in his possession.
Well that just reinforces the point even more lol.
As for a different reply, well Kenshiro does have more skills than Toguro but overall Toguro is faster more powerful and more durable than Kenshiro, so by the time he manages to think so something to do he is already being demolished by Toguro.
Well Toguro was rivaling the speed of Yusuke when he was uncuffed which would easily make him hypersonic in the speed department
As for durablity and destructive feats, he was able to withstand a near full powered Reigan that ploughed through several dozen meters of concrete and steel-like material, He also managed to stalemate Yusuke's final Reigan and the proceed to overcome it with his own power not to long after. That would put him at multi-city block level in both.
And as for strength, well he carried a massive stone floor from one side of the island to the other so we are looking at 100+ tons (But I would also say Kenshiro has around the same strength as Toguro)
Younger Toguro wins this
Oh I am well aware of his abilitys, The problem is Im rather rusty on DBZ and I realised after I made it it was a bad match up.. but I digress I will add someone else into the equation to make the teams more fair and rounded off.
