@othus12: Not much, I don't read Toriko (Or more accurately I haven't gotten around to it yet) so I can't say with confidence. Assuming he is around equal to the kings, he has the stats to deal with Naruto (Triple digit reactions etc.).
@othus12: Not much, I don't read Toriko (Or more accurately I haven't gotten around to it yet) so I can't say with confidence. Assuming he is around equal to the kings, he has the stats to deal with Naruto (Triple digit reactions etc.).
@othus12: Look man it's not that I think Enel is weak, its just that Naruto has been getting insane boosts to power and speed these last few chapters that put them (Top Tiers) head and shoulders above the rest (Makes sense given its in the end game now). If the distance is larger then maybe he could zip away and wait it out (thats what I said in my first post as his only real chance of winning, a direct confrontation is suicidal) but its standard distance and the Bijuu Dama will be a few feet from his face by the time its ready to be fired.
Against anyone else from Naruto bar the likes of the Obvious (Hashirama, Naruto, Madara etc.) he can win, but these guys are packing som insane AoE and firepower not to mention incredible defences and top end speed and reactions.
Thats my point, I don't doubt his speed while moving via lightning but he only has mach 7 reaction (Higher with Mantra) and combat speed to compliment that which is what will get him killed here as these attacks are far to fast for even Haki to give him the edge.
The reason for the 8/10 is because on the off chance he does get away but more often than not he is going to be face to face with a Bijuu Dama, and that is not going to go well for him.
i know you love naruto but clearly you are overhyping him A LOT
first, i cleared that i forgot intan was off (nerfing enel should give you an idea of how this is a mismatch but ok)
Thats fine but as I have said even if it was on the outcome would not change due to NLF.
second, saying naruto can tank blasts in the range of Teratons is one of the biggests lies ever. 10 teratons are enough to erase a country the size of the united states so clearly you don't even understand the scale of power you are talking about.
Twist my words some more why dont you. I said:
a teratons worth of energy
A teraton, as in singular or 1. How do we know this, because the Juubi is calced at 1 teraton with its casual beams and Naruto was outright shown to tank that beam. I understand the scale of power more than you (based on a poor attempt at trying to show the different values of destructive capacity) and 1 teraton is the equivalent for high end island busting levels.
Do some research yourself before you claim I am wrong.
Also you need to check your values.
By erase, you mean destroy everything completely. You will need more than 10 to do that to the USA.
he was tanking multi-mountain level blasts at best.(bet you wanna gang him with zebura right?)
Island level, all Bijuu dama contain 4 Gigatons worth of energy making them all island level. Despite what you might think size does not directly equate to power.
And no I don't, Zebura is calced well into the teratons and is faster by a large margin. In what way did I give you the impression that he would be fight the Toriko verse?
you should go to the OBD, enel destroyed pein with ease, some people even called it spite.(guess that tells you something about enel's reaction time)
Twisting my words once again.
I never said Enel would beat Pain, I believe I said that Pain has faster reactions and combat speed, which the OBD agrees with else they would not quote him at being at Mach 7 in combat and reactions outside of his lightning movement speed. they also said the same in a battle between him and Stark at which they quoted his "mach 7 reactions and combat speed".
Once again do some more research before you try and prove me wrong.
now haki adds to the reaction time massively because its precognition opposed to true reflexes, the weakness of haki users is that they may not be able to keep up (explained by marigold and sandersonia) unless you think marigold has better reaction time than enel right? even she could foresee luffy at gear second and luffy is at hypersonic+ (BTW enel was dodging luffy at lightning speed, thats what forced luffy to use random attacks)
Skypeia Luffy is around mach 10, this is calced, his attacks are slower than this.
Dodging mach 7-10 attacks is not the same as dodging a mach 30+, and if his reactions were as high as you say then he should have had no trouble dodging Luffys attacks without the use of Haki.
bijuu dama calced at mach 30? thats cute(not to mention wrong, bijuu dama was calced at mach 20 in naruto forums)
Ah you mean this one?
The one that was recalced at the bottom of the first page and then thrown out because distance and timeframe were wrong? It was also recalced to mach 42 in the same thread.
Conversely this the upper limit of their speed.
Mach 143. (that is accepted by the way)
Nice try but no dice.
enel's speed was calced at mach 437 and his range is well over 10 miles
Yeah, in his lightning form, he still needs to react to use it which wont happen unless you can prove it. Now go right ahead and get some scans showing Enel at the same level as everyone else in One Piece in speed and reactions without the use of his lightning body.
By this effect I want you to show him dodging mach 20 fighters on panel right here, right now.
I was generous and doubled his reactions with the use of Mantra to mach 15 (Highly resonable as their best calc for speed is mach 19 that is used regularly), I even said you could stretch it to mach 20 if you want as thats just above how far the One Piece verse goes currently.
If you want to be a dick about Naruto than I can be just as much of a dick with One Piece.
And yeah thats fine about his range, Naruto was able to sense each of his friends from across a country during the war so range is not an issue here as there are at the standard distance and either can attack each other instantly.
for all you know as soon as the fight starts enel can get away, and spam el thor from a distance so far naruto wouldnt realize what hit him, he can also go away until his kurama form fades. enel can do so many things to make this an unfair fight, the only chances i give naruto of winning are because of enel's cockiness but not because of naruto's power.
As I already covered the Bijuu Dama would be in the air long before he tries to run. A fact that seems to escape your grasp. He is going to try and attack right at the start same as naruto, the only differece here is Naruto is going to fire a Bijuu Dama and enel is going to fire a few bolts at him. he is going to have to react to the Bijuu dama that has just been fired a few feet in front of his face and then turn into lightning and then zip away to dodge it. He is going to need reactions well into the MHS range to do this even for a mach 20 Bijuu Dama. So go ahead and prove it.
I could also debate that with intangibility off he cant fully turn into his lightning form else that would break the rule, so he is not going to run anywhere.
Also here is list for tanking feats. (Over a teraton, so i say 1 teraton, unless you think Naruto and Bee are stronger than the thing that has been slaping them around since its rebirth)
And there is Skypiea Speed. Mach 6.5 (7 Which is what I said already)
That awkward moment when you think you are right but couldn't be more wrong.
@eddz99: how is biju dama gonna kill lightning?
- Intangibility off.
Please stop acting like he is intangible here, and even if he was it's generally accepted that a strong enough attack (beyond their natural durability outside of logia form) with enough AoE or "force" to blast the Logia Body beyond its limits of reforming is enough to kill them so as not to invoke a NLF on Logia.
Same principle applied to Aizen when everyone claimed he was immortal beyond any and all limtis of destroying his body by physical means. Same rule applies here, if the attack is strong enough then he is screwed regardless as his natural durability can't tank the attack anyway.
It's fair and well rounded, so even if he could turn intangible he is still getting obliterated before he can do anything to counter.
or even hit him?
The Bijuu Dama moves at speeds well beyond the reaction times on anyone in One Piece, he won't be able to react to it and dodge it once it's fired. The same goes for Kizaru, the only person who would have much of a chance is likely Kuma given his repel can be handy in such a situation.
besides it takes to much time to charge, in that time enel can do the 100,000,000 volt vari in narutos face and that would kill him.
That changed the second Naruto and Madara and Bee force spammed Bijuu Dama like bullets from a gun at massively hypersonic speeds (Varies from mach 30 to mach 140). The Charge time is virtually non existent now given the gaps between each Bijuu Dama is only a few feet in the continuous barrage.
The only time it charges now is when 2 or come combine their power into one and even then thats only a few seconds. Given the above (And the fact that Madara was able to put swords into all of them too shows you just how fast he really is.) It's fired and explodes long before Enel can react to it.
Also his attacks will not get through the shroud to actually hit him in the face, lets clear that up first. It was able to tank a teratons worth of energy straight to the chest with no visable signs of effort so Enel will be there for a long time spamming his attacks to break through that.
While some might call the fight PIS, it does not matter either way. Its the only fight we have to go off with him in it and his reactions im sorry to say were not that good compaired to guys later on. His Haki was impressive, no doubt about that. But it does not mean that he is "faster" than anyone else, only going by what is shown. If or when he does appear again im sure he can get a boost to match the new characters, but until then he is still only mach 7 in reactions and combat speed whether you like it or not.
I'm not giving him feats he has not earned the right to be powerscalled from. I conversely will do the same for Naruto with the new Mach 140 calc (When I last checked) for Hashirama and Madara until he earns the right. But if you want to give him mach 19 speeds to make him equal to the rest of the verse then I will by all rights give Naruto mach 140 combat and reactions.
Either way you want to swing this you still need to provide feats to back up your claims on his reactions and combat speed. I don't doubt his Lightning MOVEMENT speed, but he first needs to react to use it to escape the Bijuu Dama.
rasen shuriken shouldnt be able to to do anything to enel at all. besides if pein got away surely enel can too
not fast enough, he could barely outrun the raikage. enel is lightning speed with precognition reflexes btw i forgot intan was off.
Its packing firepower above his threshold so yes it will kill him if it hits, it also moves at mach 20 speeds which I have already covered. It would be an incredible stretch to give him mach 20 reactions (His Haki might be better than the others but that does not mean he is as fast or faster than anyone at mach 20, and to give you the idea "if you polish a shit, it's still a shit"), the most I would give him is just above mach 10 to around mach 15 using Mantra, which is double what it was before, but even then thats unlikely and a random guess too since he has never displayed anything on this level. While he might be able to react to it, he is going to have to be very careful as a single slip up and he is getting sliced to pieces.
Even if I did allow you to have mach 20 the Bijuu Dama is still double his speed and reactions, if not more. He still won't react in time to dodge it.
But if Logia Dispersion was on, the Rasenshuriken would not touch him so I will give you that. It lacks the overall power, force and AoE to get past the Logia Body
And he casually dodged the Raikage. His lightning speed is MOVEMENT ONLY (Please dont bring this up again until you can show feats on a level where he can react to these attacks to actually use it.) he still needs to react to mach 20 attacks which is something he has never done before, precog or not (I give you the benefit of the doubt here, I let him have decent reactions for late game One Piece despite never showing them, still won't change the fact the Bijuu Dama are too fast for him to react to).
Also the bolded, Nagato is a solid and proven mach 20+ fighter in combat and reactions. He is by rights faster than Enel in this regard, just because he can dodge it does not mean Enel can.
Im not underestimating Enel, I know full well what he can do, but when you are fighting something that exceeds your verse in speed (in this context, reaction and combat, Naruto also has a form of precog of his own but it works more on instincts and predicting movement and energy than Haki) and outright power through AoE, it's hard to make a convincing argument in which he can react to and run from explosives that move faster than anything in his verse and by effect anything he himself has actually reacted to.
Naruto wins this more times than not, Enels ONLY chance is to run away and hit him when the Shroud runs out in which is a rare instance given he will be dead most times before he gets the chance to try this.
I give the win to Naruto 8/10 with the Logia Body on or off (Possible 7/10 with it on).
When or If he shows back up in the manga and gets some more beffiting feats in the reaction and speed department, then we can come back and talk this through again. As it stands, a Bijuu Dama to the face 8 times out of 10.
Real feats that were shown in the manga rather than wrong calculations.
I would love to know what exactly makes these calculations wrong? You claim its a fan site and therefore the calcualtions they work hard to obtain are wrong, by effect all these battles are fan made and by your logic any conclusion we come to is wrong as well as that is fan made too.
I am more than happy to say Konohamaru can wipe the floor with Yamamoto as the obvious fan made conclusion we come to based on the battle should be wrong in your eyes.
Or will you apply double standards and say that somehow we as fans are above other fans of the series who come from a different site?
@ALMIGHTY: Never know, Obito and Himself both have the ability to use Tsukuyomi since both had planned to use it to enslave the world, the problem was Madara died before he got the chance. No telling how Obito got ahold of Tsukuyomi, but its likely to do with absorbing either the powers of the Sharingan he had collected or Madara just passed it on to Obito on his death bed.
His Genjustu was strong enough to more or less let him work off a blank canvas and create a sort of dream world. That is something we have never seen before so he is clearly strong enough control the finer details in an illusion. More or less like the architects from Inception.
@ALMIGHTY: I also do not like applying an ability to someone who has never displayed the ability, but it has been stated quite a few times that Susanoo can only be activated when the user has already awakened Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. It remains consistent with showings as only people with said jutsu have activated Susanoo and people like Obito have not.
Very resonable at this point to say he has it, Should someone who does not have both Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi activate it then you can question it.
What has yet to be seen is how powerful it would be if he used it. But even a weak Tsukuyomi from Sasuke is enough to stall some powerful people a few seconds I would like to think Madara who has shown a level of mastery with the sharingan than has never been seen before would be able to utilize it to a very powerful degree.
I know Madara + The Kyubbi has Multi Mountain/ Near Island Level destructive capacity
His durability is well into island level with Susanoo, given that it can no sell bijuu dama without sweating when he covered kurama with it.
Ichigo on the other hand is on the mid city level WITH Mugetsu. This is suicide if he goes to use this as not only will it fail to break his defence but he would lose all his power as a side effect.
His casual swings don't even compare to Madara's given his pack triple digit megaton's worth of damage and mach 60 speeds, where Ichigo's pack mach 10 speeds and double digit kiloton damage.
But I'm certain Dangai Ichigo is faster than them, and has at LEAST mountain busting DC which COULD put up somewhat of a fight...
Faster, yes. Enough to matter against a guy who has precog with his sharingan? Not at all, given how easily Hashirama reacts to attacks, Madara is more than able to react to Ichigo and his attacks. The best he ever displayed in his Dangai form was mid city level with his Mugetsu.
I dont understand the faster argument, The Top Tiers in the HST are virtually the same speed as of now, speed blitz is all but impossible between top tiers outside of assorted hax like Kuma and Minato for example.
All in all he lacks any form of attack that can break Susanoo and the only one that could have any chance would cause him to lose by default.
He lacks the speed to avoid Madara's attacks given the range and AoE they have,
And he can't counter Tsukyomi, which will leave him wide open for an Island buster which he can't tank and survive.
Hence why this is a stomp. Even without Kurama, Madara can still win with a quick Tsukyomi and proceed to activate Susanoo.
@YouFinished: Thanks very much. Ment to add in a short version at the end but that would have turned into another few paragraphs knowing me.
: I wondered why you seemed so familiar, now I know why haha.
@othus12: With no morals, Yusuke is going to hit him like a train before he can draw a breath. The speed gap between them is huge to say the least.
Even with morals on his use of Kyoka Suigetsu in combat is very conservative and rarely extends past a mirror of himself while he moves a few feet to stab the person in the back when they attack. Its going to take more than that to kill Yusuke but he would end it long before he even gets the chance to release it anyway.
With his transcendence came a horrible God Complex that more or less retconned his use of KS in combat as he started to rely on his new powers rather than his old powers.
Simple thing here is that you need to show feats of his regeneration. Best you can say is that upon his incarceration Central had no means to kill him. Mugetsu was the best they had and it only destroyed half his body leaving another half there from which to regenerate.
And I might add that Gin's bankai destroys you on the cellular level, but Aizen regenerated back.
While true that means nothing when over 2 thirds of your body is still there in which to regenerate from. Had his whole body have been destroyed then you could give him regeneration on that level, yet as you said it only destroyed a few vital organs in that area so still not enough to survive complete obliteration.
The limits of his regeneration were shown when he was hit with Mugetsu, and until he shows something above that, that is his limit. Low to mid city level durability from which he can regenerate. Anything
But on mere physical damage on the level of mountain+ at best, I don't see it.
Its a good thing his blasts are well above mountain level then.
But really, you cant claim that without any evidence, at best he is scaled to the best attack Central 46 had at the time of his incaceration which is one of 2 things, Mugetsu or Ennetsu Jikogu. Evidently Yamamoto didnt try to kill him with that else he would be dead so the only other attack as Mugetsu which did enough damage to screw his regeneration up (Was only able to regenerate his real body and not his amped one) and cause him to lose hope and regress in power.
His Reigan had enough force to obliterate islands worth of rock in the Makai, I see no reason why Aizen, who had half his body destroyed by a much, much weaker attack will fair any different in this case. If you can't show durability and regeneration feats of Aizen in which he can survive such an attack then he won't survive it. Plain and simple.
Despite his greater raw power I doubt Yusuke can destroy you on the cellular level.
At that level Yusukes Reigan will splatter him across the ground well beyond the shown limits of his regen and durability.
Getting most of your upper body destroyed on a cellular level which houses most vital organs and getting cut in half are no small feats
In both cases a good portion of his body remained, his regeneration beyond this is spectulative and without feats it wont hold up to your claims.
the fact is that Aizen could not be killed. And it's not a no limits fallacy. With statements of his immortality and multiple feats supporting this I don't see it that way.
By Soul Society standards anyway. It is a No Limits Fallacy to claim his regen has limits higher than what is shown. Statements mean nothing in this case as immortality as pointed out above is a very vague term, and multiple feats? 2 feats, both of which a good portion of his body remained from which to regenerate from.
it's not a no limits fallacy to say that he couldn't survive being burst into multiple pieces
That is a no limits fallacy, and a composition fallacy. You give him regeneration above his shown limits (No Limits Fallacy, no feats to back up the claim), you claim that because he can regenrate part of his body on a celular level he can regenerate his whole body on a celular level (Composition fallacy, no feats to back up the claim), and you base all this on the fact that Central called him immortal and that he survive part of his body being disintigrated.
Besides, i don't get where this burstinga spirit gun is coming from. I haven't seen it burst someone to pieces. It's predominantly concussive force which Aizen can tank all day long.
Bursting people comes from the fact that it shatters mountains in the Makai and his punches break apart plateaus.
The Bolded, do you have any evidence to support him tanking the explosive force of a 500 gigaton blast to his chest and coming through that completely unscathed? It has enough power to shatter mountains and islands worth of Makai stone and rock with utter ease. He is getting ripped appart by the explosive force of a reigan unless you can prove differently.
It's a greater no limits fallacy to say Yusuke's spirit gun could override Aizen's immortality without seeing the upper limits. It's at least just as big an assumption.
No, we know the exact limits of his spirit gun.
His reigan is sporting the combined explosive power, force and energy of all shown quantifable attacks in Bleach combined and then some... casually. His punches are around the exact same level via shockwaves alone... casually. Aizen is going to die, there is no argument to be had here.
There is no such thing as a greater no limits fallacy in this instance.
The no limits fallacy is you giving him regenerative abilities he does not have
The composition fallacy is to claim that because part of his body was destroyed on a celular level, his whole body can be and he can still regenerate. I dont go around claiming that Kizaru can tank attacks on this level because his regen limits have not been shown, I also dont go around saying Hashirama can regen through attacks on this level because no limits have been shown for him either. why should I allow people to say Aizen can do the same?
The most plausable response here will be "No feats to prove their regen", to which I say exactly.
If you want to argue regen then I am more than happy to start saying Kizaru solo's all of bleach because they have nothing to put him down, as does Hashirama. Both have never shown limits so both have no limits at all.
The above is a no limits fallacy, which is what you are doing to Aizen here now. We go based on what is shown, not on speculation.
The burden of proof is on you to provide evidence that Aizen can survive such powerful attacks and regenerate from them. Without that we go by his best showing and dont apply fallacies to his power to try and raise him up.
Most of the attacks he "survived" left much of his body intact. Trying to say he can survive more than what was shown is a No Limits Fallacy. Even using statements he is not strong enough to surivive attacks on this level.
Dont apply a NLF to his regeneration because when I last checked Central 46 is neither omniscient nor has the raw power and hax that other verses have. They are not imformed enough to say that someone is immortal to ALL physical damage, just as people here are not informed enough to make the claim without backing it up.
Yusuke does what Central couldn't and then goes to kill the rest of Bleach for their incompetence.
@taichokage: Its a misconception to call it vaporization, as that would mean that it's being turned into a gas and not just ground into dust.
What happened was he pulverised the rock, with a shockwave from his swing, into dust rather than vaporized it. Mihawk did a similar feat with his swing yet his only launched the top half of the Tsunami into the air a good few meters and did not grind it into, what we can call snow essentially.
Why is his attack considered greater by value? Because he did it over a much greater distance, to a much larger target, formed from a much harder substance and put enough energy behind his attack to actually launch the top half into the air. It yields about 2 megatons if im correct. But I digress, back to Ichigo.
Unless you want to say Ichigos swings pack more heat energy to get to the vaporisation point of that volume of rock rather than the more likely kenetic energy, it would be pulverisation rather than vaporization.
Ichigo destroyed enough volume of rock there to warrent it town level anyway so it matters not. But it's by no means considered mountain sized. It does not have anywhere near enough volume to warrent that classifaction.
The difference between vaporization and pulverisation is great, as they would yield very different values.
As for the fight im more inclined to say the trio will give him some trouble, given they do outnumber him and have comparable speed augmented by precog and a few nice attacks of their own. But he should win in the end since they dont have much to put him down and are going to have to rely on CQC to do so, which would make things much worse for them if a single swing connects.
But One Piece is still young, so this could change in the future.
@taichokage: I hope you are right as she is one of the few characters I find likable. Didn't see the logic in killing her off 4-5 pages after her Bankai was finally revealed, she deserved a much better death than that if he decides to follow it through thats for sure.
A bit more info on her Bankai would have been nice too beyond just a flood of ink, I didn't like how vague it was beyond the apparant corrosive nature of it. At least she has some high level healing abilities to go with her status as the Captain of the 4th Squad now, so at least thats worth a mention.
@taichokage: Yes I would like to apologise for my aggressiveness there if it came across as such, I had just spent the last 48 hours awake finishing up some programs and a paper for my module among other things and the way I remembered how Kubo finished Unohana off when I made my first post. All that just left me in that kind of mood where eveything is annoying.
Don't know why you sound so upset.
Im not upset at all, dont know where you got that from. Im just tired of seeing Bleach wanked to high heavens with not so much as a clear quantifiable scan to prove any of it.
Don't know how much more specific 15,000,000 degrees can get. If you doubt a specific power statement as that, then you have to take every characted statement with a grain of salt. And this is anime not real world physics. Just because the ground wasnt gone doesnt mean he wasnt 15,000,000 degrees.
I dont know how much more specific than the Solar System you can get in regards to Cell. It works both ways my friend, unless he displays feats akin to his claims, or people around him display things that makes said claim more likely, his claims do not get passed and it makes them hyperbole until such a time as it actually does what it says on the tin. You should know how the feats or GTFO game works by now right?
The claim was that had Royd Lloyd not have had his blut vein active he would have been turned to dust instantly, the contradiction is that level of heat should have scorched the Earth he stood on among other things. Yet it did nothing to back up that claim putting its actual level into question. Bleach is not above using calcs to get a clear level of power. Every form of fiction follows this trend of calcs now to cut out all the bullshit people keep claiming, much like what you are doing with Yamamoto saying he has 15 million degrees wraped around him when nothing shown by his Bankai even suggests that is true.
Unless you are saying that the Earth he stands on is more durable than a quincy using blut vein then clearly he is talking crap. His Bankai is nowhere near these levels that he claims because if they were it would have done much more than what it displayed.
This is fact no amount of back and forth between us will change this at all. Its up to Kubo to show us the feats, if he does a bad job of doing it then the feat sucks because of it. Kishi put work into showing off his battes much better than Kubo ever has, he just puts ink on a page and calls it a battle. Kishi goes the extra mile and adds great levels of detail to show everything, something Kubo will never do as he likes to drench his work in ink making all the good fights and moments look crap as hell. But I digress, this is more me hating Kubo's Art Style, What im saying is because he puts so little detail into his work his feats come out at much lower values than most would like, unfortunately we can only work with what has been shown, so unless you have some better scans that I have not seen then he is staying at city level.
As for the bolded, I do, as does everyone else I would like to think. The only exception to this is if the claim itself actually has some ground from which to scale it. Rare case overall but I will never take a character statement above displayed feats unless its so obvious that I have no reason to disbelieve it until something comes up that puts it into question. Nothing about his Bankai gave the impression of 15 million degrees and the feats he displayed matched this. No one else in his verse has ever displayed anything even remotely close to his suspossed 15 million degrees so tell me why I should believe something that has no ground to stand on what so ever?
I dont need character statements to boost Hashirama and Madara, they have done more than enough on screen to warrent these levels of power. You on the other hand have to rely on Yamamoto's claims in order for you to put him above the 2 despite myself and many other people saying that its an obvious hyperbole given nothing it displayed puts it even close to that level.
Kizaru should cause earthly damage when he travels at light speed so I guess he isnt a light man.
The logic used here is so bad that I honestly dont know what to say.
You know very little about science in this regard clearly as this would only happen if he retains his mass while in light form, which he does not. Which makes this false and still alows for calcs to be used. This is of course assuming that you were joking around about "light" moving at "lightspeed" inside the Earths atmosphere would cause actual damage to the Earth. I think you need to go back and retake science if you think light causes damage to the ground when it enters the Earths atmosphere.
Speaking for the rest of fiction this is ommited if its clear they are infact moving at lightspeed and nothing is happening if something is happening then the feat remains valid none the less. Fiction or not, unless otherwise stated all of our values apply to a fictional verse and can be quantified feats as such, you can use any example you want to try and dispute this but it will still stand none the less.
Only objects with mass traveling at lightspeed would cause damage to or planet, when Kizaru turns into light, HE TURNS INTO LIGHT. He becomes photons more or less and that is how Yata no Kagami works.
If you keep making silly claims like this then you will destroy your argument for me. Less work for me I guess but I digress.
And they don't need to Chant kido, nor could Hashirama catch the flying speedsters with his Mokuton
They will need to chant to get the levels of power required to even so much as slow them down. And catch flying speedsters? You act like mach 23 makes a huge difference against a mach 20 scaled fighter with precog, Yamamoto will go straight to Bankai in a bloodlusted form, and unless you saw something I didn't in the manga this is based around CQC, he will fight on the ground not in the air. Tell me again how reacting to a mach 30 Bijuu Bomb will somehow not give him the reaction time needed to track and counter a mach 23 fighter?
Even if he does get into the air what exactly is he going to do to evade and stop the Guan Yin, a construct that dwarfed the Mountains in the area and Kurama? He gets slapped back into the ground and the cycle repeats, going into the air is pointless for someone who when using his strongest form fights in CQC. And good luck on him winning a sword fight with Susanoo, a single swing from that and its Juhabach's sword all over again except this time his body is going to be torn to pieces.
This leaves Aizen and his 7 megaton attacks to try and break through their defence. at which point susanoo cuts him down too.
but again he has no defense for some kido.
Aside from a wall of wood cloaked in Susanoo both of which were able to tank a point blank 4 gigaton level explosion with no effort at all? Gonna have to try a bit harder than that. What Kido can either of them use that bypasses durability again? Thats right none what so ever, so trying to use that as an "feat" is going to leave your argument rather thin. Kido is not as hax and unblockable as you like to think it is.
And Ichigo broke Kurohitsugi because he is physically more powerful than anyone in the HST has shown and beacuse he was a being beyond Aizen's dimension.
You base this "strength" off a single scan that has nothing to quantify? Good luck with that one.
Bleach wank at its finest, using an unquantifable feat that has absolutely nothing to go on, and claims that it puts him above everyone else in the HST. If you even think that for a second Ichigo is anywhere near top tier One Piece or Naruto levels in strength then you need to consider actually reading through Naruto and One Piece again. Both have multiple feats that say otherwise and are far more quantifiable than breaking out of a black box with no defined levels of power other than a mentally unstable Aizen claiming "lawl gravity torrent" without giving a value for it. Hate to tell you but all mass and gravity distorts space and time to some degree so the gravity inside that box for all we know is the same as the Earths, absurd I know but unless you have something that says different the possibility remains.
Quantify this feat if you are so sure its above anything ever displayed in the HST strength wise other than just claiming it is because of "lawl statements". You clearly know how durable the walls of Kurohitsugi are if you make this claim, would I be correct? I thought you would have learned by now that this shit aint going to work with me, I want feats so given me some quantifiable feats to work with otherwise its about as durable as glass unless you can show otherwise.
The burden of proof is on you, I have displayed more than enough relevant information and scans to put them above Aizen and Yamamoto. Its your job to show me what they can do with clear scans and calcs that showcase their power.
You are better off using his shockwaves and blocking Aizens blade rather than this Black Box of hyperbole and unquantifiable claims, because you wont get too far using that.
Garp and Naruto displayed strength well above Ichigo with his cannon ball feat and Naruto kicking away those Bijuu Dama with absolute ease not to mention sheer virtue of size of his Kurama Mode alone dictates that his physical attacks should be around town level, well beyond the best Bleach has to offer so far in the strength department. Top tiers in Naruto and One Piece have feats of strength that make Bleach look like a child.
Madara's Susanoo was strong enough to cleave the tops of multiple mountains with a single swing and wreck the land around the base of his Susanoo, this alone puts his Susanoo above Ichigo in strength. The Wood Golem also grabbed a Bijuu Bomb and caught Madara's sword swing which also gives it strength feats beyond Bleach.
So there goes him being the strongest person in the HST by miles. Might need to rethink that, before you make such an absurd claim again.
Literally. His reiatsu could not be felt because Ichigo was too far above him.
I read the manga, and this means nothing at all in regards to this battle. Feats are better than vague energy readings from a mentally unstable Aizen.
And I don't know what these calcs are saying but the biju bombs minus the Jubi have destroyed single mountains not islands unless you are talking very small islands.
These calcs are saying what a calc generally says. It calculates the feat based on resonable scaling so we can get an actual value and not go based on assumptions like you are doing with Yamamoto.
They have the reaction feat from Hashirama under consideration right now and should that be accepted, any chance you had of claiming they have the speed advantage is lost and most top tiers will get a speed boost beyond Bleach levels. Lets see how this plays out anyway.
Island level starts at 1 gigaton and upwards, its still a great jump beyond city level where Yamamoto is currently at and unless he gets island level energy output he is going to fair about as well as part one Naruto in breaking through the Wood Golem or Susanoo. Which is not at all, or at the very least not without alot of effort on his part.
You have a little look on there and you will see that Naruto and Bee's Combined Bijuu Bomb is calced at 2.6 Teratons. Now I am downplaying to a Gigaton value on purpose as I see no reason to say that Kurama is able to dish out 1.3 teraton level attacks in its prime under the control of a bloodlusted Madara with an intent to kill... Joking aside I do this because every other Bijuu Bomb has been around 4 - 6 Gigatons and I see no reason to amp this to a teraton level feat without a proper calc proving it.
The one below that is the Decide arc calcs for Fragor, Ichigos Shockwave and his Mugetsu. Funny how I missed this revision and I have been putting them at levels they are no longer at going by the revised calcs. Ah well its been corrected now. Rather pathetic all in all but there you have it, your beloved Ichigo is quite a bit below what you thought he was. Hardly impressive at all given he must sacrifice all his energy to do his best attack (I see a trend forming in Bleach were to get the best damage output they have to more or less kill themselves or purge their energy in the process). I hope we see something much better from him in the weeks to come but I dont hold out much hope for a quantifable feat rather than the ink spills Kubo likes to give us and call "art". But once again I digress, these feats could change if someone decided to recalc them in which case I will post the new link but they wont change much. Bleach calcs never do.
Below that are the tanking feats from Naruto with levels applied to them where needed. Bee tanking his own Bijuu bomb calced at 4+ gigatons, Kurama is more than able to equal that level of power in his prime, making Hashirama's Wood Golem tanking said attack viable here and not open for discussion until you can boost Yamamoto into the gigaton level output.
The last one is interesting as this is ongoing and should it pass most of Naruto is likely going to get a lovely boost from it, unlikely that it will but all the same its a fun calc none the less. Not much point in me posting it but I thought it was a nice addition.
You will also see there that Aizen is right at the bottom there with his 7 mt fragor . Now Yamamoto's Bankai is at 330 odd megatons per second (In this range, not above 400 thats for sure) calc wise. What we know is that around half the energy of an explosion is heat based, we also know that the mountain ranges they destroyed were not just blasted apart but vaporised by the heat of the blast itself. So unless Yamamoto is able to output 2 gigatons worth of heat energy at a minimum, he is not breaking through something that tanked that level of heat casually, for you to continually deny this must mean that you can quantify his Bankai to this level, so by all means go right ahead and do so and stop wasting time with pointless statements from Yamamoto. No offence intended I would just rather get a clear and concise answer from you rather than read the same 15 million degree Bankai argument over and over again when everything it displayed contradicts his statement. The sooner you show me some Gigaton level feats from him, the sooner we can end this debate.
As it stands right now they are both getting slapped into the ground with mid difficulty at the most.
That's with Mokuton as a defense. His personal durability
His personal durability does not matter one bit unless they can get through his Mokuton which going by feats and calcs they cant. So its pointless to question it.
15,000,000 degrees C can burn any earthly substance.
Its measured in calcs because we dont debate based on statements and assumptions. The 15 million degress has absolutely no evidence to support that claim so its a bassless assumption on your part, anyone with half a brain knows not to quote this in a battle as you have absolutely nothing to prove it with.
What we know for sure is that his Bankai outputs triple digit megaton level heat energy per second with East and has a slightly lower reading with West, Hashirama took a gigaton level attack with no trouble at all. His defence is taking his Bankai with no trouble at all, you have to prove that it can output energy in the Gigatons for it to be a viable form of attack against him. If you cant then you have to show that its not heat energy being released and its some form of conceptual attack that can bypass his wood, if you cant do either then im afraid to say hashiramas wood is going to slap him across the landscape before he can burn it all up. You cant wank his Bankai anymore when clear limits have been calced for it. You want to dispute the calc then go ahead and dispute it, it holds more standing that yourself or Yamamoto making a claim and then having absolutely nothing to back it up with as it actually gives numbers and shows how to get said values. All you have done is spout what Yamamoto and Aizen have claimed without so much as a shread of quantifiable evidence to back it up with.
Tenchi Kaiji would blow through Hashirama's Mokuton like nothing regardless of its force.
I never once mentioned force, I said energy, and that covers kenetic to heat, both of which are present in a bomb and at roughly equal levels to my understanding, (I believe at most 50 percent of energy inside an explosive is turned into thermal radiation, or heat energy in this case, upon detonation). A 4 gigaton energy based explosion outputs more quantifable heat energy than Yamamotos bankai ever displayed. Show me some quantifiable feats or its all baseless assumptions on your part. There goes your attempt at putting words into my mouth.
And I don't see Hashirama defending against a Kurohitsugi spell from Aizen or getting past his regeneration.
Aside from going sage and summoning a mountain sized Guan Yin to break through it? If it failed to keep ichigo inside it sure as hell aint keeping Susanoo or the Wood Golem inside let alone Guan Yin.
Once again show some quantifiable feats or its baseless assumptions.
What makes you think he would even resort to Kido in his final form much less take the time to fully chant one when Hashirama or Madara can just spam a forest on his ass while he does so. the strongest attack he took was Mugetsu, so hashirama is curshing him under Guan Yin and keeping it there is more than enough to stop him from doing anything. You cant claim he can regen through attacks beyond his shown ability. No matter what was stated on the manga, he goes down to an attack greater than Mugetsu in a battle scenairo, so Susanoo takes care of that problem.
Yamamoto engulfed Karakura in his flames and could have destroyed it multiple times over.
An unspecified area greater than a small town (Aizens words) is Town level+. A bijuu bomb from any Bijuu past Shikaku is calced into 4 gigatons worth of destructive energy, that puts it on island level, far beyond anything Bleach has ever shown. And said feat required him to die in the process, Bijuu can spam city busters and not have to kill themselves doing so, not impressive one bit in this regard.
So once again I say gigaton level durable Wood Golems coated in Susanoo are being brought down on their ass.
What's to stop them from binding their opponents?
What is to stop Hashirama from binding them with Wood Dragon? It's displayed the strength to not only bind Kurama but also drain its energy. This works both ways the problem is even should they somehow get bound, which wont happen until pigs fly mind you, they can still control already active Mokuton and Susanoo so it wont do jack shit to stop the onslaught and even while immobilized they are still going to slap them into the ground.
Gonna have to try alot harder than that to put them beyond current Naruto levels
You make alot of claims based on statements without a single quantifable feat to back it up.
This is Bleach wank at its finest, claiming that he has 15 million degree flames at face value yet the ground under his feat was perfectly fine. Given Juhabach and his statement of being turned to dust if his blut vein was not active would mean the ground at his feet would be burning up, cracking and likely just outright meling just by him standing there. Yet it didnt, so once again show me some feats or its a bassless assumption and a no limits fallacy when clear limits are shown and calced to.
Kurohitsugi stopping something larger than a mountain? No limits fallacy.
Binding Kido working on something similar? No limits fallacy.
Any of their attacks even remotely harming a Mokuton formation that is able to take a 4 gigaton level explosion point blank and not have a scratch on it? No Limits fallacy, and grasping at some straws once again to try and push Bleach above Naruto but failing spectacularly.
When you can actually construct an argument using quantifable feats and less use of fallacious statements get back to me, otherwise my argument still stands, Unlike Yamamoto and Aizen as far as the battle is concerned.
@taichokage: Glass Canons? Explain how his Mokuton, which he can produce with a thought, protecting him from a point blank island level explosion is being a glass cannon? His personal durability is around multi city block scaling from a standard high tier character unless you are saying he is weaker than your standard high tier? If so then we will need to have a look at most of the Bleach team given most of their feats are obtained from other characters. Speed is a good example of this.
He is regarded by most after that feat to have one of the best defences in the HST through abilities alone. Feats wise its far superior to Zanka no Tachi whos calcs dont exceed 300-400 megatons per second so its going to be hard pressed to burn through it at any decent level of speed to actually block his attacks. Let alone stop 1000 hands raining down on his old ass. Just because he uses heat energy to fuel his attacks does not make it any more powerful against wood that is able to take gigatons worth of energy in an instant and not so much as deform because of it. If he even tries to burn it with his Bankai the old man is getting slapped into the ground and then crushed under a tree. If anyones durability is crap its his, beyond his shield he has no means to actually defend himself for a barrage of wooden fists that are strong enough to catch a Bijuu Bomb and Susanoos blade in mid air.
And while good movement speed has yet to be shown for them, what they lack in speed they make up for in reactions with him blocking the sword swing from susanoo and the Bijuu Bomb which he was not only able to react to but counter and also do so by changing its trajectory.
Exlain to me how either of them will deal with Guan Yin let alone the spam of wood release he alone is able to output? You claim Bleach team has hax like they have none of their own, did you forget about Advent Flowering Trees and Tsukuyomi? Both of which can be activated at incredible speeds by either of them and will knock them out long enough for Hashirama to drop a mountain on their heads. In regards to Tuskuyomi, it's far more applicable in combat than Kyoka Suigetsu as it serves better for subterfuge and long term manipulation. While it can be used in battle its nowhere near the level that Tsukuyomi is able to output instantly through eye contact, Not to mention it has a much faster activation time and given that no Captain to date has shown any resistance against illusions at all they can be caught in it. He is going to have a hard time fooling Hashirama with KS when he is milking Senjutsu inside the head of the Wood Golem while leveling the ground around him with Guan Yin.
Both of them have limited precog so that makes up for the speed loss (But given their status inside Naruto they are more than able to get speed scaling from FRS at mach 20 Bleach only has mach 23 speed, dont make them out to be so fast they could blitz two people how have more than enough reaction feats to block and counter anything they can throw at them)
Any hax they have is swiftly dealt with via wood spam and Wood Golem cloaked in Susanoo. In all honesty Madara nad Hashirama can control the flow of the batter to a far greater level than Yamamoto and Aizen can.
Aizen has displayed nothing in his final form that would even scratch Hashirama Mokuton, and the only thing he is good for here is using illusions which are swiftly dealt with via quick activation of Tsukuyomi.
Hashirama and Madara have displayed more than enough to win this. People here are selling them incredibly short given they displayed more superior and actually quantifable feats in one chapter than Aizen and Yamamoto did combined in their final few. To call them glass cannons is a horrible downplay of the above scans. Both have durability around Mountain - Island level with their respected jutsu, Yamamoto and Aizen are getting crushed under Guan Yin and there is nothing they can do to stop it.
The advantage they have in hax is so small that is not even worth arguing over when the opposition can spam a city wide forest on your ass before you can use it.
The goal is who can do more evil deeds
Aizen was not that evil in all honesty. Depends on how you view evil really, I see Yamamoto as being more evil that him given the multiple genocides he ordered without a shread of remorse.
@SpeedForceSpider: Fair points but the whole ordeal is less than spectacular given that Itachi went on with his monologue and even with that all the damage it done was burn away some skin and muscle, Had he have been bloodlusted and in his healthy form, like he is in this battle, he would have used Shinra Tensei straight away and countered with his own attacks.
Izanami wont help him much since it requires direct physical contact to initiate and actually instigate, not only that be it requires the physical contact between himself and Nagato to have the same "feeling" on both counts. Itachi has to cover 100 meters to use it, and Nagato has a plethora of long range attacks to take him out with while he tries to cross the distance. Izanami wont do much for him.
Izanagi is a hefty gamble given that even if it does work his chakra is going to take a huge hit since its chakra usage is INCREDIBLY high even with Hashirama's cells, and its potential without the cells is also very low, as even Danzo was taking big dips in his chakra when using it, and he pimped out his own body just to make use of it. And for Itachi to try using it outside of edo would be near suicidal and leave him little to no chakra to follow up with a counter. He struggles enough with his chakra, Izanagi would just make things worse for him.
Edit: Also Itachi never displayed Izanagi so there is no guarantee that he would know how to even use it since he himself has never displayed it. We cant say Yamato can use Moukujin no Jutsu just because he knows Mokuton, even if he had the chakra to pull it off himself.
Knowing that Izanami is a counter to it does not mean he can utilize it himself.