Yusuke52 (Level 15)

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Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15
Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15

Battles » Madara uchiha vs Dangai ichigo

Yes it was sand. We can calculate how much energy is required to raise the sand to that height. OBD calculated lanza's potency as 1.05 MT, which is city+.

Incorrect, that is the lowest possible level to be classed city level at all.

The correct calc for Lanza is 15 MT which is still low city level.


The Bijuu Dama are right there on low end of small Island level with Naruto and Bee's combined Bijuu Dama being up there at high end of Island level (Right at the top).

Madara's Swing is there at 132 MT.

Fragor was calced at 7MT in that blog for the accepted calcs. It also has one at 17MT or thereabouts if I remember correctly but I can't find the blog for it, or more specifically I just could not be bothered to look for it, use the higher value if you want too, and let it never be said that I constricted Bleach to low end values.

Mugetsu, Ichigos strongest attack packs a total of 40 MT when last I checked. Nowhere near enough to break Susanoo or harm Kurama in the slightest.

And his swings... are not even worth mentioning in this regard since they will do jack to Madara.

All of these were created to avoid pointless debates like "Country level Ichigo" and "Aizen can survive planet level attacks" and "Well he looks faster so he must be."

They are completely unbias despite what people like to think given that they only calc what is present there to calc, they have multiple people from different ethnic and social backgrounds looking over said calcs to see if it could be done any better or if anything was wrong. Actually helping one another make the calc as good as it can be.

All of them have different tastes and most of them hate Naruto and Bleach anyway.

Saying calcs are stupid just because you dont like them or you think the numbers are too high is utterly pointless as they were done in the fairest way possible to get the best results from the evidence given.

I dont like the fact that NASA calculates how much fuel is needed for certain ships to leave this planet, I dont like the fact that people calculate the yield of explosives based on a theortical work, yet both occurances have a very high rate of sucess and yield definitive results which we are confident enough to use in the real world.

Why exactly should we not use calcs that have resonable figures given to get a fair result? They give us clear results to something that is otherwise just impossible to guess, and if the battle fourms have been reduced to guess work then what is the point of having a debate at all.

To debate means to give resonable evidence, I have provided you with calcs to get resonable numbers for the feats displayed within them. You dont get more resonable than that.

Bleach is all flash when it comes to feats, in reality they lack alot of things that could actually increase their power. That is due to Kubo refusing to show what the attacks in question DO (Unohana, Yamamoto, Shunsui, most of their Bankai/Shikai are still shrouded in mystery and nobody can say with complete certainty that they know exactly what they do and how powerful they are)

Yamamoto's shikai (ennetsu jigoku) was stated to have enough power to destroy an area exponentially larger than karakura town (making it multi city level).

"Exponentially" is not a stadardized unit of measure or size, It could mean twice the size, it could me 20 times the size, it could mean 100 times the size, it could mean 3000 times the size, We don't know. Completely unquantifable beyond the obvious fact that Karakura Town was going to be destroyed.

Second, it's not multi city level, there is no such thing when debating destructive power, If anything it's on the upper end of City level.

And yama tanked it.

Yamamoto compressed its power to levels we dont know, a good portion of that energy was likely absorbed back into his body without any ill effects, the rest of it hit him. Unquantifiable is another word to describe it. Besides he has City level durability by powerscalling anyway and thats what he would have for tanking the attack.

So I'd say aizen's fragor is easily multi mountain by this powerscaling

And I say there is obviously something wrong with your version of "Powerscaling". It's on the low end of city level tanks to the feats it displayed.

As for this speed advantage people keep saying Ichigo has, it does not exist to any level that makes it worth pointing out.

Mach 20 Naruto to Mach 23 Bleach.

3 Mach is not a "speed advantage" unless they are within breathing distance or a few feet of one another and the other person cant react for shit. And definitely not an advantage against someone who HAS multiple long range attacks and is at a distance of 200 meters on the back of a large beast in very rocky and uneven terrain..

Reaction wise Madara is perfectly scalable to Hashirama who, at the lowest of low estimates, is around mach 30-40 odd in reactions thanks to his reaction feat against a Bijuu Dama, so Ichigo is not blitzing him even if he somehow does cross 200 meters before Madara (A man who sensed Hashirama from across a country) notices him doing so.

As for attacking power, Ichigo lacks anything that can break Susanoo or harm Kurama, there is no debate to be had in this regard. And to say it's not in Madara's nature to use Susanoo is like saying it's not in a humans nature to want to live. Virtually every instance bar a select few we have seen him in, he has some form of Susanoo active, hell even when using Kurama he though "Rolling with a Bijuu, might as well pimp this ride out and slap on Susanoo for the lolz."

The second this battle starts Bijuu Dama will be fired and Susanoo will be activated to protect not only himself but Kurama from any damage he may take. He is not stupid enough to leave himself exposed to attacks outside of Edo and he has no reason to not use and abuse Susanoo.

"A massive boost in power and defence which takes no toll on my body nor does it use up my chakra at increased rates and gives me an unbreakable defence and strong as hell offence? I will take one of those."

Thats like a solider not using their gun because they are worried they might run out of ammo. Who gives a shit, it's easy to use and does not physically drain me while firing it. I might as well use it since its counter productive for me to not use it.

He has an advantage that costs him very little to exploit, and people are trying to say that he won't go ahead and exploit it when he is shown to do just that? Just no.

Ichigo himself is not one for dodging attacks to begin with, he either blocks them or tries to overcome them. This tactic will not do him any good against Madara, who packs more than enough power to put him down and make him stay down.

If the distance is closed then he has to deal with Ninjutsu and Genjutsu as well as avoiding the constant Bijuu Dama spam and sword swings which contain more energy per swing than Mugetsu's best showing of destruction and have range well beyond the distance stated in the OP.

Not to mention the Gumbai, which he was skilled enough with to perfectly block Naruto's super mini Bijuu Dama. Not only does it block the attack, it also reflects it back at the attacker. If Ichigo wants to try some swordplay with Madara outside of Susanoo, then he is just going to be eating his own shockwaves because the mini Bijuu Dama is far more powerful than his swings and by effect his Gumbai is more than able to block and repel them if he needs it to.

And flight as an advantage to Ichigo? Maybe certain Captains and Vice Captains, but Ichigo?

Do I need to point out the obvious and say that virtually everything he does is in close quarters, he has two attacks that have any decent level of range in this form, one of which is useless at 200 meters due to its rather slow travel time and low energy output and was not even displayed at all, and the other reduces him to a husk of his former self after a single use.

Sure he can go into the sky, but what exactly will that achieve for him? Not a single thing, If anything he makes it worse since he has just removed himself from his own area of comfort as he never fights at long range, he only ever fights in CQC.

On the off chance he is at range, he closes the distance after he fires a Getsuga Tenshou or he just tries to close the gap straight away to engage head to head. Something which wont work out well for him given he is fighting an ethreal warrior with 4 arms and as many blades as it needs, that's hundreds of times his size and moves at impeccable speed despite it's size. Not to mention the thing wearing it like armor is also firing out Bijuu Dama constantly and slapping the landscape into dust with it's tails.

For his feats.

First Image (From this point, it's image set one) is showing the superior power of Susanoo, a feat that by rights is better than anything Ichigo displayed by a large margin. This feat however is not where the 132 MT calc comes from, that comes from his battle with the 4th division. Obviously this is superior yet I wont go as far as to make a number up, unlike some people here who just "wing it" when it comes to Bleach feats.

The second set of images (2,3,4) is the reaction feat. Hashirama, while in mid air, reacts to the enhanced Bijuu Dama, turns and lands, bites his finger and spreads the blood over his hand, and then hits his hands off the ground with plenty of time left for the summoning and a brief moment before the Bijuu Dama impacts. The speed comes from one of 2 things.

a) The dust cloud around the Rashmon Gates is still thick and is just rising over the gates by the time it reaches the other side of the lake, you can see this clearly. It would had to have happened very quickly since dust rises rather fast when its kicked up by such force.

b) Look at the trail it left in the water, the bay where it left is still visibly disturbed by the time its crossed the distance and exploded. Another indication of extreme speeds.

Not to mention that is enhanced with a blade from Susanoo so naturally its going to move faster and cause more damage.

It's calced well into the triple digits, if you dont like that the lowest speeds they have around mach 30-40 odd, so still beyond Ichigo regardless which makes a blitz all but impossible no matter what the distance is.

Madara, having eyes that increase his reaction time should, at the very least, be in this range for reactions too. No amount of downplaying alters the fact he still remains one of the strongest people present in Naruto by a decent margin in every stat, speed included

If Nagato gets mach 20 scaling then Madara is sure as hell getting it too.

The thrid set of images (5,6,7) Display the speed at which Susanoo was able to move its body and arms to place blades into every one of those Bijuu Dama at speeds fast enough where the spread between each Bijuu Dama is only a few feet at most. To say that Susanoo lacks speed is overlooking this key fact that it's more or less as fast, if not faster, than Madara is despite being larger. Similar to Kokujo Tengen Myo'o in this regard without the horrible side effect that comes with it.

It also displays the same level of power Ichigo will never produce in Dangai or FGT form to break through Susanoo.

The final image there is the perfect way of decerning how powerful an attack is. We have a clear depth of the valley that was formed, the only thing we dont have is the length, which can be estimated easy enough in other scans.

Bleach rarely gets things as clear as this for destruction and speed feats, hence why they have very small boosts in power compaired to Naruto and One Piece. If they every get any good feats then sure, use them all you want, if they ever get anything that can break through Susanoo then by all means go right ahead and use it.

Im not so egotistical that I won't conceed something that is blatantly obvious.

Yet as it stands right now they don't, and given Ichigo was at his absolute peak in Dangai form he will likely never have anything that can make him a match for Naruto top tiers such as Madara. I have been wrong before of course so only time will tell.

Madara alone has enough skill and power to take this, Kurama just ensures that this victory is absolute. The terrain itself works against Ichigo as he has less room to attempt to dodge such wide scale AoE attacks.

And I swear to god if I hear any BS about Kurohitsugi and it's "warping time and space" crap I am going to punch a dog in the face.

@othus12: @SpeedForceSpider: Hope that suffices if you can get through it all.

Likely won't change much given no matter how flawless this is, it wont change the fact that Bleach is just Bleach, and people think it's more powerful than it actually is.

I only go by what is resonable and fair. If I didn't I would not have bothered to point out that Lanza is 15 MT and not 1 MT.

Just adding that in before someone claims I am "Wanking" Naruto for whatever reason, when most people here know I dont really "like" any HST series that much to actually put in the time and the effort to find vague feats and wank them to increase power. To be honest they are all equal in my eyes and I could drop all of them today and not a single fuck will be given by myself.

But everything has been said now, and there is nothing more to be said. The only thing left if for someone to start saying Ichigo is a planet buster at which point we should all just GTFO. Dont expect any replies out of me as I have alot of work to finish up before im officially done, and being on here gets me no closer to finishing it.

Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15

Off-Topic » The Speed of Lightning.

@Dream: Yeah I fully understand, he is known to exaggerate.

Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15

Off-Topic » The Speed of Lightning.

@Dream: Yes, it's dealt with very strictly given the abundance of lasers in "weaker" fictional verses (Kizaru in One Piece for example). Same thing with "Black Holes" in this regard. I think it's mostly to do with how technologically advanced the Nobility are in VHD (From what I have read the technology they have is very advanced), they have some very powerful stuff when it comes to the technological side of things.

I will see about reading these books myself, just so I can gauge these feats. The guy sounds very interesting none the less.

You could ask Fang or Kage no Yume (I think they are the VHD buffs over at the OBD, but I'm not 100% on that) about the feat and get a much more refined version from them, and most likely exact numbers too.


That's his profile there. They have him down somewhere between quadruple to quintuple mach in reactions.

Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15

Off-Topic » The Speed of Lightning.

@Dream: Laser just stands for Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. So most lasers should be relativistic at least, I think the type of laser effects it's speed but my knowledge on the exact workings of lasers is very limited.


The OBD have it worded nicely there. You can read that and get a better understanding of how lasers work.

Him cutting the decending leader is MHS. Had he have cut the Return stroke (Like I said this is the part that is actually visible to us, which is the proper discharge from the cloud/ground. I dont know how one would go about cutting a completed ionized path through the air anyway, but if you can figure that out then let me know) then you could give him that 1/3 lightspeed stuff.

The laser feat i'm unsure of as I don't read the novels, I just know some of his feats. It's normally accepted to be relativistic from what I have seen, but as I said I don't know to what level exactly.

Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15

Off-Topic » The Speed of Lightning.

@Dream: Yeah I saw that. It was bad enough he tried to lecture Oxford on English.

I will say he is not wrong with the speed, the return stroke can average speeds around 1/3 the speed of light. But only the return stroke can get to those speeds, the leader is much slower.

The feat in question sounds more like D is cutting a decending leader rather than the return stroke. But I think he deflected lasers at some point in a later novel, which would give him relativistic reactions at best. To what level that is i'm not sure.

Not lightspeed or FTL in any case based on that feat alone.

Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15

Off-Topic » The Speed of Lightning.

@Dream: Yeah the stepped leader is the actual bolt in most cases, the return stroke only happens when the leader has found a suitable path through the air.

In the slow mo videos you can see the leader(s) branching out to find the best path to the ground.

Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15

Off-Topic » The Speed of Lightning.

@Dream: The higher speed that people bring up is the Return Stroke which happens directly after the Leader has plotted a path to the ground. Simply put its the bright flash we all see during a lightning storm.

Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15

Battles » 100 Homunculus Mannequinn Soldiers vs 100 Others

The White Walkers, assuming we are talking about the actual White Walkers and not the Wrights.

They are faster than the Mannequins and have a higher level of intelligence, not to mention actual fighting skill and the fact that Mannequins dont have the destructive power to get rid of them or Dragonglass (Obsidian for anyone who watches the show)/Fire/Dragonsteel (Valyrian Steel for anyone who watches the show, I also can't remember if this has actually worked on them but I do remember Sam saying that Dragonsteel can kill them. Been awhile since I read the books so my knowledge is sketchy on the finer details) to exploit their only known weaknesses.

Might require chopping them into pieces but the White Walkers should finish this up without too much trouble.

Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15

Battles » Kuma & Law Vs Madara & Hashirama

@taichokage said:

I don't know of any calcs for Kuma, but with his being near light speed according to the manga, and that hypersonic+ characters are unable to react properly, I think it's safe to assume.

So no then. Statements mean nothing without calcs and feats to back it up. Just because they cant react to him does not make him lightspeed.

I can tell you of one calc for kuma which was mach 57, that was thrown out and its still too slow even then.

We have never seen Madara or Hashirama move at speeds of vanishing caliber, nor was there a direct statement regarding their speed. Madara has been blitzed by the Raikage before after all.

They don't need to vanish to show speed (Not everything needs to vanish to show speed) when they have a perfectly viable calc right above that gives a definitive number for their reactions and combat speed.

Blitzed by the Raikage who was under the effects of Onoki's Jutsu to lighten his body while in a cocky Edo Form where he let them hit him just to show off his DNA, Somehow I don't think you can milk this cow for much longer before it runs dry.

While we are at it Haku is lightspeed going by statements, guess they still blitz in that regard too then since everyone is faster than Haku.

Honestly, get me a calc that has him at mach 100 in reactions and combat speed. Then we can argue over who is faster, as of right now they are.

To be honest im not in the mood to go on like this proving my points every single time, again and again. Which is funny because joining this thread I knew exactly that this would happen, I should have just left it but here we are.

Genjutsu followed by Susanoo and Bijuu Dama spam. CoO wont help them in time to counter this tactic not to mention calced speed 7 times greater than their own means Hashirama and Madara will get off the first attack.

And its about as cheap as my argument will get on the matter. Nothing more needs to be said on my part everything is there, if you reply to me just read back through what has been posted because this is all you will get in response from me anyway.

If you dont mind im going to go and be sick, this new medication for my infection is having some nasty side effects on me and I just cant be assed debating here right now while I feel like this.

Good day

@othus12: Oh and I also started Toriko, so far its good.

Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15

Battles » Kuma & Law Vs Madara & Hashirama

@taichokage said:

What's up Yusuke52? I just wanted to comment that assuming Madara/Hashirama do have faster reactions, how could they counter Kuma who is indisputably the fastest character of the 4?

Sorry I did not see your post.

Do you mind showing me the calc for his speed then?

Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15

Battles » Kuma & Law Vs Madara & Hashirama

@othus12 said:

You and i know we cannot calc how long it takes to raise that thing up since it hasnt been animated. on the other hand laws room is pretty much instant.

Both true. But given the scale of the battle and the threat Madara was, we can safely say it only took him a matter of seconds to summon it. Unless you want to say it took him minutes?

hashirama has to enter sennin mode and do a hand sign.

Or he can just clap his hands and trees will grown right under their feet.

no guan yin doesnt exceed the range of room. laws room cut along an entire island

This time it was my fault.

I ment to say size, his room will not encompass the entire statue leaving a good portion of his body outside of it.

So once again I ask how he plans to counter MHS Mokuton release spam? Given his reactions do not exceed Mach 20, I can't see where you will take this argument.

He has to open his room and cut, Hashirama has to clap his hands or slap the ground. Madara only has to glance at him and he is under a genjutsu. Given they are 7 times faster in this regard I fail to see how Law will somehow beat them to the punch.

Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15

Battles » Kuma & Law Vs Madara & Hashirama

@othus12 said:

there has been no proof that laws ability weakens by the distance. anything inside his room can be manipulated at will. one cut and they will be in half no matter if they are on the whole other side of the island.

You misunderstand me, it will cause delay if you will.

Is it easier to shoot someone with a .44 from 5 feet away or 500? That is what I mean when I say that.

Also Guan Yin far exceeds the range his Room can reach, how do you plan to structure your argument to let him counter 1000 hands coming down on him at mach 143? Given the speed he can react and move at, Guan Yin will be up in the seconds this battle starts long before Room is activated.

Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15

Battles » Kuma & Law Vs Madara & Hashirama

@YoungChief said:

Tough one, but Hashirama is not getting blitzed here. His most recent calc/feat puts him at massively hypersonic, the only speed he's gonna have any trouble with is their teleporting, which he is probably used to since his brother invented the flying thunder god technique, also hashirama's wood has been shown to tank bijuu bombs from the kyuubi, island busting power isn't gonna do much to him if anything at all, btw there isn't a one piece character that's an island buster yet, you'd have to stretch things a bit to find even a mountain buster in one piece that isn't named whitebeard or blackbeard, and even with them it's a stretch since the best quake fruit feat is splitting an island

Better to quote you than write an essay on this myself.


Where did you get this information from? Because I have not seen any 'massively hypersonic' speed feats from Hashirama.

The Bijuu Dama he countered was moving that those speeds.


By effect Madara also gets this, along with Prime Kurama and the Juubi I think.

That does not count for movement speed by the way, this only works for reactions and combat speed. For the record his wood release can move at those speeds to match the fired Bijuu Dama.

I have not seen any island busting feats in Naruto either & why won't an island busting attack not do anything to him.

The Bijuu Dama are calced to release 4 gigatons worth of energy, thats enough to give them island level firepower (Small island level), and that is the low end for them. Naruto can charge his up to around 1 Teraton and the combined Bijuu Dama from Bee and Naruto was around 2.1 Teratons or something in that range.

The "island busting" attacks won't work because their defence no-sells said Bijuu Dama. Kurama covered in Perfect Susanoo took the beat down from Guan Yin AND the forced detonation of fired Bijuu Dama to break down.

With that said "Island Busting" can break through, it just requires far more power than One Piece has ever shown even by its top tiers (Subject to change of course on both fronts, Should Hashirama block some of the Juubi's attacks it just gets worse for One Piece).

Law seems to have cut Punk Hazard in two, if you do not believe that feat shown (as I am a bit sceptical myself), he is certainly a mountain slicer.

The feat is viable, but only in terms of range, not power. His cuts don't deal damage, its how he follows them up that matters. (There was a debate on exactly how his power works to avoid NLF, but its far to long and boring to read all the way through so we can just ingore it in this battle).

With that said following up his cut is next to impossible as Hashirama and Madara can just summon a defence around them and continue their attack. His cuts dont slow down the attack in any way and given the speed advantage they have over them they can counter it before is already to late.

But it won't come to that in the first place. He wont get "Room" open at the standard distance before he is slapped by a wooden hand. The further from Hashirama the less effective "Room" is overall, the closer he is and its easy for him to be completely blitzed into oblivion by Mokuton spam.


I just tried to find the page for 30 minutes, no luck, I know it's on the OBD somewhere

It's cool, it's the link above.

As Hax as they are, it won't help them in the slightest.

Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15


@othus12: Sounds good, I plan to read through it before it gets too far into the story, once a manga gets to a certain point the odds of me sitting down and catching up drop significantly.

Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15


@othus12: Not much, I don't read Toriko (Or more accurately I haven't gotten around to it yet) so I can't say with confidence. Assuming he is around equal to the kings, he has the stats to deal with Naruto (Triple digit reactions etc.).

Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15

Battles » Kyuubi Mode Naruto Vs Enel

@othus12: Look man it's not that I think Enel is weak, its just that Naruto has been getting insane boosts to power and speed these last few chapters that put them (Top Tiers) head and shoulders above the rest (Makes sense given its in the end game now). If the distance is larger then maybe he could zip away and wait it out (thats what I said in my first post as his only real chance of winning, a direct confrontation is suicidal) but its standard distance and the Bijuu Dama will be a few feet from his face by the time its ready to be fired.

Against anyone else from Naruto bar the likes of the Obvious (Hashirama, Naruto, Madara etc.) he can win, but these guys are packing som insane AoE and firepower not to mention incredible defences and top end speed and reactions.

Thats my point, I don't doubt his speed while moving via lightning but he only has mach 7 reaction (Higher with Mantra) and combat speed to compliment that which is what will get him killed here as these attacks are far to fast for even Haki to give him the edge.

The reason for the 8/10 is because on the off chance he does get away but more often than not he is going to be face to face with a Bijuu Dama, and that is not going to go well for him.

Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15

Battles » Kyuubi Mode Naruto Vs Enel

@othus12 said:

i know you love naruto but clearly you are overhyping him A LOT

first, i cleared that i forgot intan was off (nerfing enel should give you an idea of how this is a mismatch but ok)

Thats fine but as I have said even if it was on the outcome would not change due to NLF.

second, saying naruto can tank blasts in the range of Teratons is one of the biggests lies ever. 10 teratons are enough to erase a country the size of the united states so clearly you don't even understand the scale of power you are talking about.

Twist my words some more why dont you. I said:

a teratons worth of energy

A teraton, as in singular or 1. How do we know this, because the Juubi is calced at 1 teraton with its casual beams and Naruto was outright shown to tank that beam. I understand the scale of power more than you (based on a poor attempt at trying to show the different values of destructive capacity) and 1 teraton is the equivalent for high end island busting levels.


Do some research yourself before you claim I am wrong.

Also you need to check your values.


By erase, you mean destroy everything completely. You will need more than 10 to do that to the USA.

he was tanking multi-mountain level blasts at best.(bet you wanna gang him with zebura right?)

Island level, all Bijuu dama contain 4 Gigatons worth of energy making them all island level. Despite what you might think size does not directly equate to power.

And no I don't, Zebura is calced well into the teratons and is faster by a large margin. In what way did I give you the impression that he would be fight the Toriko verse?

you should go to the OBD, enel destroyed pein with ease, some people even called it spite.(guess that tells you something about enel's reaction time)

Twisting my words once again.

I never said Enel would beat Pain, I believe I said that Pain has faster reactions and combat speed, which the OBD agrees with else they would not quote him at being at Mach 7 in combat and reactions outside of his lightning movement speed. they also said the same in a battle between him and Stark at which they quoted his "mach 7 reactions and combat speed".

Once again do some more research before you try and prove me wrong.

now haki adds to the reaction time massively because its precognition opposed to true reflexes, the weakness of haki users is that they may not be able to keep up (explained by marigold and sandersonia) unless you think marigold has better reaction time than enel right? even she could foresee luffy at gear second and luffy is at hypersonic+ (BTW enel was dodging luffy at lightning speed, thats what forced luffy to use random attacks)

Skypeia Luffy is around mach 10, this is calced, his attacks are slower than this.

Dodging mach 7-10 attacks is not the same as dodging a mach 30+, and if his reactions were as high as you say then he should have had no trouble dodging Luffys attacks without the use of Haki.

bijuu dama calced at mach 30? thats cute(not to mention wrong, bijuu dama was calced at mach 20 in naruto forums)

Ah you mean this one?


The one that was recalced at the bottom of the first page and then thrown out because distance and timeframe were wrong? It was also recalced to mach 42 in the same thread.

Conversely this the upper limit of their speed.


Mach 143. (that is accepted by the way)

Nice try but no dice.

enel's speed was calced at mach 437 and his range is well over 10 miles

Yeah, in his lightning form, he still needs to react to use it which wont happen unless you can prove it. Now go right ahead and get some scans showing Enel at the same level as everyone else in One Piece in speed and reactions without the use of his lightning body.

By this effect I want you to show him dodging mach 20 fighters on panel right here, right now.

I was generous and doubled his reactions with the use of Mantra to mach 15 (Highly resonable as their best calc for speed is mach 19 that is used regularly), I even said you could stretch it to mach 20 if you want as thats just above how far the One Piece verse goes currently.

If you want to be a dick about Naruto than I can be just as much of a dick with One Piece.

And yeah thats fine about his range, Naruto was able to sense each of his friends from across a country during the war so range is not an issue here as there are at the standard distance and either can attack each other instantly.

for all you know as soon as the fight starts enel can get away, and spam el thor from a distance so far naruto wouldnt realize what hit him, he can also go away until his kurama form fades. enel can do so many things to make this an unfair fight, the only chances i give naruto of winning are because of enel's cockiness but not because of naruto's power.

As I already covered the Bijuu Dama would be in the air long before he tries to run. A fact that seems to escape your grasp. He is going to try and attack right at the start same as naruto, the only differece here is Naruto is going to fire a Bijuu Dama and enel is going to fire a few bolts at him. he is going to have to react to the Bijuu dama that has just been fired a few feet in front of his face and then turn into lightning and then zip away to dodge it. He is going to need reactions well into the MHS range to do this even for a mach 20 Bijuu Dama. So go ahead and prove it.

I could also debate that with intangibility off he cant fully turn into his lightning form else that would break the rule, so he is not going to run anywhere.

Also here is list for tanking feats. (Over a teraton, so i say 1 teraton, unless you think Naruto and Bee are stronger than the thing that has been slaping them around since its rebirth)


And there is Skypiea Speed. Mach 6.5 (7 Which is what I said already)


That awkward moment when you think you are right but couldn't be more wrong.

Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15

Battles » Kyuubi Mode Naruto Vs Enel

@othus12 said:

@eddz99: how is biju dama gonna kill lightning?


- Intangibility off.

Please stop acting like he is intangible here, and even if he was it's generally accepted that a strong enough attack (beyond their natural durability outside of logia form) with enough AoE or "force" to blast the Logia Body beyond its limits of reforming is enough to kill them so as not to invoke a NLF on Logia.

Same principle applied to Aizen when everyone claimed he was immortal beyond any and all limtis of destroying his body by physical means. Same rule applies here, if the attack is strong enough then he is screwed regardless as his natural durability can't tank the attack anyway.

It's fair and well rounded, so even if he could turn intangible he is still getting obliterated before he can do anything to counter.

or even hit him?

The Bijuu Dama moves at speeds well beyond the reaction times on anyone in One Piece, he won't be able to react to it and dodge it once it's fired. The same goes for Kizaru, the only person who would have much of a chance is likely Kuma given his repel can be handy in such a situation.

besides it takes to much time to charge, in that time enel can do the 100,000,000 volt vari in narutos face and that would kill him.

That changed the second Naruto and Madara and Bee force spammed Bijuu Dama like bullets from a gun at massively hypersonic speeds (Varies from mach 30 to mach 140). The Charge time is virtually non existent now given the gaps between each Bijuu Dama is only a few feet in the continuous barrage.

The only time it charges now is when 2 or come combine their power into one and even then thats only a few seconds. Given the above (And the fact that Madara was able to put swords into all of them too shows you just how fast he really is.) It's fired and explodes long before Enel can react to it.

Also his attacks will not get through the shroud to actually hit him in the face, lets clear that up first. It was able to tank a teratons worth of energy straight to the chest with no visable signs of effort so Enel will be there for a long time spamming his attacks to break through that.

While some might call the fight PIS, it does not matter either way. Its the only fight we have to go off with him in it and his reactions im sorry to say were not that good compaired to guys later on. His Haki was impressive, no doubt about that. But it does not mean that he is "faster" than anyone else, only going by what is shown. If or when he does appear again im sure he can get a boost to match the new characters, but until then he is still only mach 7 in reactions and combat speed whether you like it or not.

I'm not giving him feats he has not earned the right to be powerscalled from. I conversely will do the same for Naruto with the new Mach 140 calc (When I last checked) for Hashirama and Madara until he earns the right. But if you want to give him mach 19 speeds to make him equal to the rest of the verse then I will by all rights give Naruto mach 140 combat and reactions.

Either way you want to swing this you still need to provide feats to back up your claims on his reactions and combat speed. I don't doubt his Lightning MOVEMENT speed, but he first needs to react to use it to escape the Bijuu Dama.

rasen shuriken shouldnt be able to to do anything to enel at all. besides if pein got away surely enel can too

not fast enough, he could barely outrun the raikage. enel is lightning speed with precognition reflexes btw i forgot intan was off.

Its packing firepower above his threshold so yes it will kill him if it hits, it also moves at mach 20 speeds which I have already covered. It would be an incredible stretch to give him mach 20 reactions (His Haki might be better than the others but that does not mean he is as fast or faster than anyone at mach 20, and to give you the idea "if you polish a shit, it's still a shit"), the most I would give him is just above mach 10 to around mach 15 using Mantra, which is double what it was before, but even then thats unlikely and a random guess too since he has never displayed anything on this level. While he might be able to react to it, he is going to have to be very careful as a single slip up and he is getting sliced to pieces.

Even if I did allow you to have mach 20 the Bijuu Dama is still double his speed and reactions, if not more. He still won't react in time to dodge it.

But if Logia Dispersion was on, the Rasenshuriken would not touch him so I will give you that. It lacks the overall power, force and AoE to get past the Logia Body

And he casually dodged the Raikage. His lightning speed is MOVEMENT ONLY (Please dont bring this up again until you can show feats on a level where he can react to these attacks to actually use it.) he still needs to react to mach 20 attacks which is something he has never done before, precog or not (I give you the benefit of the doubt here, I let him have decent reactions for late game One Piece despite never showing them, still won't change the fact the Bijuu Dama are too fast for him to react to).

Also the bolded, Nagato is a solid and proven mach 20+ fighter in combat and reactions. He is by rights faster than Enel in this regard, just because he can dodge it does not mean Enel can.

Im not underestimating Enel, I know full well what he can do, but when you are fighting something that exceeds your verse in speed (in this context, reaction and combat, Naruto also has a form of precog of his own but it works more on instincts and predicting movement and energy than Haki) and outright power through AoE, it's hard to make a convincing argument in which he can react to and run from explosives that move faster than anything in his verse and by effect anything he himself has actually reacted to.

Naruto wins this more times than not, Enels ONLY chance is to run away and hit him when the Shroud runs out in which is a rare instance given he will be dead most times before he gets the chance to try this.

I give the win to Naruto 8/10 with the Logia Body on or off (Possible 7/10 with it on).

When or If he shows back up in the manga and gets some more beffiting feats in the reaction and speed department, then we can come back and talk this through again. As it stands, a Bijuu Dama to the face 8 times out of 10.

Post by Yusuke52 (441 posts) See mini bio Level 15

Battles » Jedi vs Gotei 13

@DBZ_universe said:

Real feats that were shown in the manga rather than wrong calculations.

I would love to know what exactly makes these calculations wrong? You claim its a fan site and therefore the calcualtions they work hard to obtain are wrong, by effect all these battles are fan made and by your logic any conclusion we come to is wrong as well as that is fan made too.

I am more than happy to say Konohamaru can wipe the floor with Yamamoto as the obvious fan made conclusion we come to based on the battle should be wrong in your eyes.

Or will you apply double standards and say that somehow we as fans are above other fans of the series who come from a different site?

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