Musou Tensei is all I can say.
You are saying goten and trunks are as strong based off showcases that cannot even be considered as solid proof of their power.
I am saying they are strong based on their showings against opponents with better feats which is decent actually. DBZ has never been all about feats anyway, just hype and character statements. They theoretically have a chance with the rules I have placed. But to claim Trunks is as strong as his ASSJ form in regular SSJ when Vegeta clearly needed ASSJ to face Semi Cell? That is baseless, ludicrous, and downright false. Not trying to be mean, but that isn't a very sound and reasonable argument.
I went based off shown power levels and on hand showcases within the series. You entire argument was a sparring session with gohan(who's power decreased and physical and mental skill deteriorated) and a fight with 18(who suggested herself that she was holding back and the fight itself is inconsistent.) Go freaking figure.
Power levels are invalid after the Frieza saga just pointing that out. If you're referring to "power scaling", then I can also scale based off of their ROSAT training which would make them stronger by far. My argument still holds up, because it was never explicitly stated Gohan's power has deteriorated. He has mastered the SSJ form for the last time man, how does one lose mastery? Even if he lost a bit of power, he is still wayyyy stronger than Mirai Trunks, Piccolo, and all the Androids. The Dabura fight should have told you that much.
he argument got pushed to so i really don't freaking see at all why you are turning this on me.
18 was more surprised than pressured when the boys went ssj, because her opponent was supposed to be a weak, pitiful human with no ability. Trunks and Goten are nowhere near Mirai Trunks nor Piccolo. Not without fusion. #18 and others were Holding Back during the tournament to keep from maiming the other contestants. (BTW she only got "pressured" during the anime version of their fight in the manga version she stomped them and they had to go super saiyan in order to at the very least compare, and when they shot a ki blast she was very well surprised at their power and decided she had to end the fight quickly. Probably because they were going to destroy the stadium at the rate they were going. So in the case that they are above 18 they wouldn't be that far above.)
So basically, FPSSJ Gohan has lost sooo much power that he leveled down to 18 and Piccolo now? Okay I mind's well just concede then right.
Trunks and Goten were going all out while 18 was keeping herself restrained. This is the truth. Unless you want to argue that Mr Popo is on the same level as a Super Saiyan for blocking hits from the boys on the Lookout, who both went SSJ against him.
The fight between 18 and the boys might as well be a gag feat.
Except they never went all out. 18 even shat her pants when Trunks fired off and energy blast and it missed her. And the Mr. Popo thing was to show how much they lacked control. You're now trying to downplay by saying they are weaker than Raditz who would destroy Popo?
I hardly see why this would be an outliner, but I won't bother to keep responding since you just claimed they are weaker than Saiyan Saga level characters.
I am done.
Comics: Thor, Darkseid, Spiderman, Flash, and Shazam. Special mention Superboy/Superman Prime.
Hasn't this been done before?
@DeathHero61: Except Trunks never mastered SSJ neither did Vegeta, your entire argument is based on speculation and playing favorite. Then you go as far to post links to other websites which is against the forum rules. Then you some how managed to twist my words in your favor. I pointed out something and you failed to properly counter my argument. That looks like a long rant on why you believe Goten and Trunks are inferior rather than factual evidence on why Mirai Trunks wins.
@SpeedForceSpider: I'm not saying he would win easily, but with mid-difficulty. Probably more due to being essentially in character and Goten and Trunks wanting to beat up an older guy and Mirai Trunks going a little easy on them. But still, he would win in the end.
No one else is bothering to post why Trunks would win other than experience. Hell, I can even make an argument on why Mirai Trunks would win with mid diff power alone. If that was the case, then FPSSJ Goku should have been stronger than FPSSJ Kid Gohan due to experience barring SSJ2 of course.
1. Taking into consideration that gohan hasn't been in combat for 7 years negates said sparring session. And remember when goten was throwing rocks? Gohan told goten to step back after a while he said he can come closer. Because he had to get use to the flow of combat again. Heck even vegeta when on his usual ranting on gohan
Skip to 11:15 and watch till
It clearly states that he hasn't been training as much as he used to. And it been too long so he needed to adapt thats why he trained for the tournament.(he clearly showed this in the following video below.) Its like riding a bicycle. When you haven't done it in months maybe even years you won't have the same level of skill an maneuverability you had when you used to use it constantly. The same applied for the situation with goten(plus based on that throw it seems he only threw it at hypersonic speeds. IMO, not that it matters either way. He still threw it fast enough to surprise gohan.) Plus throwing rocks at him is not a big deal. Its still not the same as close combat speed.
At the end of the video he says he got used to it so goten could come closer. That supports my previous point about adaptation.
He was obviously holding back against goten, he was still casually blocking everything goten could do even in base form so that point about goten vs gohan is moot. He obviously wanted goten to get stronger, so giving him a better challenge was far more efficient than his base form. Plus in that fight he effortlessly beat him without breaking a sweat even in ssj from in the first place. Goten himself even remarks how no matter how hard he tries he can't beat gohan.
Goten clearly has limits. Same goes for kid trunks. Thats all i need to say, they have nothing that puts them on par with namek goku. Let alone mirai trunks and we can argue all day even with canon feats. Trunks surpassing 18, 17 and stomping semi-perfect cell is literally way above any feat they have.(18 even mentioned that after they went into SSJ that "maybe i shouldn't have underestimated them" Which further suggest she was holding back. In fact her beating vegeta and 17 one shotting future trunks is more impressive than what they shown.
BTW deflecting a KI shot is completely different from getting in a close combat rumble with a combatant in the DBZ and by the way the same broly was beating on goku and gohan and are you seriously going to argue that goten and trunks are stronger than them? Funny thing is Goku Trunks and Gohan would have at least put up a semi-decent fight against that version of broly at the time. Goten and trunks got wrecked utterly. And even tried to run away on multiple occasions during the fight. Heck i'd argue that based on broly's behavior during his fight with the boys that he was holding back too.
2. Wearing him out? That depends on your definition on said term. 18 stated she underestimated them which suggested she was holding back. And one good blow from her made them struggle to get up during their fight.
3.Not really im going based off pure showcases. Piccolo is way above 18 and 17 and trunks is waaaay above piccolo and 16 and SEMI-PERFECT CELL. We can argue all day whether or not the G&T vs 18 fight was legit or downplay but even then it wouldn't matter since trunks has feats far above "giving 18 trouble" Goten and Trunks have no showings that give us a solid and i mean solid idea of their power level. All we seen really is sparring against other opponents, and people holding back on them. Thats literally it. The Ado and Cabo fight is the only fight that seems legit. Goku even said ado and cabo were perfect combatants for them. Back to 18. Stomping vegeta and trunks and yet her getting pressured by goten and trunks IS downplay.(In fact i find it funny how 18 was so impressed by trunks's nuke level energy blast when weaker versions of herself and her brother were nuking cities as a hobby and were stomping all the z fighters effortlessly.) Akira has done some questionable shit in his own series. So i consider it WIS.
4. Maybe. But then again he did went head first against perfect cell when he first appeared despite how inevitable it was while goten and trunks by just the sound of buu's voice ran off sooooo kinda makes you wonder. Anyway thats not even relevant. Moving on.
5. I never tried to make it relevant i just mentioned it for the heck of it. -.-
6. Funny still allot better than pretty much anything goten and trunks did without fusion so again not relevant.
1. Yet it never stated anywhere that Teen Gohan lost any of the said power. How does one lose his power from lack of training? Vegeta was only pointing out how he and Goku surpassed him in terms of power not how he got any weaker. If that was the case then Dabura would have stomped Gohan with ease. Holding back? Goten was clearly pushing him into a corner the entire sparring session and Gohan had to resort to flying. In case you ignored what I have been saying the whole time, they trained in the ROSAT for almost a year, their power had a considerable boost since. And that riding bike analogy you used doesn't apply in the slightest. Once you mastered a skill(in this case Gohan mastered the SSJ form) it doesn't up and disappear just because you got lazy. If anything, Vegeta was talking about the SSJ2 form since the SSJ forms full potential is brought out. And again, lazy or not, he would annihilate Mirai Trunks with absolute ease.
2. Not it doesn't depend actually. It is actually a very sound and straightforward argument. I even posted a scan in my defense, your video doesn't work by the way.
3. Piccolo being above 17 and 18 has been made irrelevant already. It has been stated if the fight were to have been dragged out, then 17 would have outlasted him anyway. Piccolo didn't have a real advantage to speak of. And did you just say Trunks was above Semi-Perfect Cell in regular SSJ? Proof please? Because even Vegeta needed to ascend to face him and Trunks isn't stronger than his father in the least. I restricted ASSJ per the OP. The Ado and Cabo fight is still non-canon, so if you can use that special legitimately, then Broly Second Coming and Bio Broly are canon and those feats contradict your statements. The boy's would solo if that came down to it.
4. If it's not relevant then why bring it up? Since we are on the subject of fear, Trunks feared 17 and 18, Perfect Cell, and FPSSJ Goku. So does that make you wonder? And these are children by the way. Don't get me started on how in every saga, the Z-Warriors are craping their pants against the stronger villain. Look how SSJ3 Goku was whimpering against base Super Buu.
5. Bravo oh Bravo.
6. You say not relevant like your opinion > mine. Not something I would recommend doing in a debate, at least make an effort to refute my point.
1. While she was holding back plus i never said they wouldn't stomp frieza while fused. Proof right? Although there is no canon material, since they have no showcases in the main series i might as well use it anyway.
Goten and trunks in their base forms were getting beaten by ado and cabo in their base forms. Ado and cabo were stated to be as strong as frieza. As interesting as this is, nobody knows about frieza's ability to mask his power via transformations. The only people who knew about this was the Z fighters obviously, and some of the ginyu force IIRC. Taking that into consideration people only seen frieza in his first form.
They only legit beat them by getting coached by gohan. Now if they went ssj they likely would have beated them with far less difficulty considering the big gap super saiyan powerups give from base to said powerup. But it still would just barely compare to frieza's other forms.
2.ASSJ is ascended super saiyan right? He didn't use that.(he only went into the first stage of ssj to fight them.) I don't blame him considering how it slowed him down against cell. Goten and Trunks are featless.
3. that was such BS android 18 was downplayed so much. She easily beat up SSJ vegeta and SSJ future trunks, there is NO WAY goten and trunks should be giving her any trouble at all. So you saying that just emphasizes the BS. Even funny thing is, even if what you said is true and the fight isn't BS she hit them hard enough to make them struggle to get up while they on the other hand barely scratched her when they landed hits.
4. They don't fear him?
Skip to 8:45 and watch till 9:24
Gotenks and fused individuals in general have shown to be heavily arrogant. Just like gotenks.
And whether or not anyone would agree with me is meaningless. Piccolo is equal to 17 and has fought against imperfect cell as well. And powered up even further afterwords to the point where he assisted in fighting the cell Juniors and cell himself.. Thats far above goten and trunks even if you try to BS with the android 18 fight.
1. You're insinuating they are too weak to face Frieza when the series contradicts this. Why was Goten able to pressure FPSSJ Gohan during a sparring session? We all know even a no training FPSSJ Gohan would lolstomp Mirai Trunks and Frieza.
So now we are using non canon material as evidence? Okay well Trunks managed to defect a blast from an amped Broly. Mirai Trunks couldn't do anything to his weaker version in Movie 8. That special with Ado and Cabo isn't a legit showing.
2. They are feat-less now? Wearing out Gohan and 18 isn't feat-less especially without any formal training. Given they trained quite a bit in the ROSAT, I highly doubt they are push-overs at this point. Their individual power has obviously risen due to the boost in the Fusion, in which they were able to face Super Buu mind you only in SSJ.
3. Aren't you downplaying Goten and Trunks though? She easily beat up SSJ Vegeta and Trunks yet claimed Goten and Trunks were giving her trouble. You also emphasized BS by showing the video of that silly special.
4. Fear actually means nothing because I bet you Mirai Trunks would crap his pants against Buu.
And arrogance is irrelevant, Vegito is a result of arrogance and was pretty OP'd. As was SSJ3 Gotenks. You don't have any scans to prove to me the boys will be arrogant enough to make a difference individually.
And yet Piccolo was still going to lose because of the energy difference, the Cell Juniors were stomping his ass BTW. The only ones fighting decently against them where Ascended Trunks and Vegeta.