shonen (Level 9)

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Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Cooler vs Goten and Trunks

@EganTheVile1 said:

@shonen said:

@EganTheVile1 said:

@shonen said:

@XImpossibruX said:

@Sonata said:

@XImpossibruX: Metal Cooler would give them a tougher fight, the original Cooler not so much.

It's hilarious how some people on the Vine think Final Form Cooler can beat 2 Super Saiyans.

The same 2 Super Saiyans who gave Android 18 a good fight, and she is way above Early SSj level.

They didn't really give 18 a good fight. She was holding back the hold time.

She was not holding back, she just realized that she was fighting Trunks and Goten who were wearing the Mighty Mask costume and cut the costume in half revealing who they were and getting them DQ'd... It was the best tactic she could use to win, as for the question at hand, Cooler gave base level Goku a decent fight, and was undoubtedly stronger then his brother or father, but he still fell short against an SSJ, now it could be argued Trunks and Goten are no where near Goku's skill, but since they achieved fusion, and I did not see a no fusion clause, I would say that since they have the ability to become Gotenks, an SSJ 3 they have an edge, beyond that since we are talking a movie continuity character like Cooler, I will point out that they survived against Broly, a stronger character.

I'm not going through this explanation again. please refer to my post from the last 2 pages.

You can't rewrite the established power level of Cooler, Goten, and Trunks just because you want Cooler to win, there is a reason the majority are choosing Goten and Trunks over Cooler, go into these battle discussions neutral and don't be offended when people disagree

Please look at the thread before you post. I said Goten and Triunks win, BUT THEY are not on 18 LEVEL. pre ROSAT. Also those power lvel listed for cooler are for a game called budokai 3 which is non cannon.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Cooler vs Goten and Trunks

@ReiKai said:

Bardock had sparks on him when he first went SSJ, but it was still just SSJ. And again adding Baby inside him and yet again no further forms shown. What you're suggesting is no different than those people who 'suggest' Cell can system bust. Words were said, no evidence was given. I'm going by what we've Seen and what numbers we've been given.

What numbers were given ? Please show because these numbers are for Budokai 3, which is a video game and are stand alone for this video game not the actual cannon series.
 
Also like I said GT and animated movies followed different systems. In GT no sparks were ever shown except for that one instant . So you couldn't  differentiate a SSJ and SSJ2 which says something about what the animators were trying to convey for that scene.
 
I've already established a plausible argument that 
 
1. People involved in fusion dance  have no memory of what they did when they are fused because the fusion character is a new person as stated by daizenshuu.
 
2. Trunks and Goten are aware and have recollection of Ultra SSJ as stated by them in the manga. They have no reason to lie. Japanese manga are not american comics in story telling. Authors don't always have to show the actually happen, character statement is enough sometimes.
 
3. In conclusion it seems to suggest that Trunks and Goten did acquire the Ultra SSJ transformation.
 
--
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Cooler vs Goten and Trunks

@ReiKai said:

What is Bad Logic is you trying to use a Character Statement to Suggest something that everyone knows is Unproven.  All this run-around BS you try and concoct is meaningless. The Only thing that is needed is a scan of Trunks and/or Goten actually displaying a SSJ form other than the regular SSJ. That's it. And we all know you can't do it, because it doesn't exist. Not in the anime. Not in the manga. Not even in the movies or (Toriayam forbid) the GT series. Never have they Ever displayed anything beyond SSJ in their entire careers outside of Fusing into Gotenks.

Gt trunks was shown producing spark and lighting similar to ultra SSJ future trunks when  Baby was inside him. GT overall leaves out sparks of characters as evident that despite being a SSJ2 sparks remain absent on vegeta throughout GT.
 
In the original manga we are never given enough time to see whether the character can go Ultra SSJ. Trunks and Goten  are immediately absorbed by Buu and their role for the rest of the SERIES is them being on the sidelines.
 
The movies for the most part are an alternate timeline of the orignal storyline so i don't know what relevance they have there.
 
All I'm suggesting it is possible they could have acquired it, and which would explain how before ROSAT they could only go to SSJ, you Post ROSAT could jump to SSJ3. I also don't see how character statements equal bad logic. Sometimes writers don't show all the feats, and use character statements instead.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Cooler vs Goten and Trunks

@ReiKai said:

What you showed was nothing more than a Character Statement which more Refers to their ability as Gotenks and not their Personal ability. When Fused it doesn't make them a new person with New memories. The Fused being is not a Baby that needs to be Taught, it is the Collective Power, Ability and Knowledge of the two people who performed the Fusion. The change in Attitude is due to the power flux making them feel invincible. Kitibokai felt the same way when they fused via Potara. Piccolo had that sudden rush when Nail merged with him. And Vegito did the same thing as well. It's what we call a Side Effect.

 
Going to break it down your argument
 
What you showed was nothing more than a Character Statement which more Refers to their ability as Gotenks and not their Personal ability
 
Actually it is never specified whether the ability is exclusive for Gotenks or Trunks and Goten.  The fact they are aware of the Ultra Super Saiyan form indicates that they must have unlocked it on their own and thought it would be enough for Gotenks.
 
When Fused it doesn't make them a new person with New memories. he Fused being is not a Baby that needs to be Taught, it is the Collective Power, Ability and Knowledge of the two people who performed the Fusion
 
I never said the fused person was some baby that had no memories. What I was saying is that the person resulting from the fusion is a new person entirely (with a personality that is a mixture of the two fusion materials used to form him/her) , and  with collective memories of the people involved with the fusion. Daizenshuu even confirms this
 
  • Dance Fusion (Fusion-ha) : Two characters must equal their fighting powers and energy, and perform a three-stage dance (stepping away from each other, stepping back towards each other, extending their index fingers, and touching their index fingers together; they must also say "Fu / sion / HA!" during each step, respectively). The resulting character has its own persona (personality) and attitude, as well as fancy new clothes (such as the ubiquitous vest). Under normal circumstances, the fusion lasts for 30 full minutes. Stages like SSJ3 and SSJ4 reduce this, however, due to the strain on the body. Also, each character must wait a full 60 minutes after de-fusing before being able to do so, again.
 http://www.daizex.com/guides/transformations/fusion/

Also just because the fused person has the collective memories of the people who fuses to make him. Does not imply the people who fuses them have memories of the fused character/
More simply
 
Just because A implies B does not mean B implies A. This is bad logic 
 
Gotenks for example and even Vegetto have never demonstrated techniques of Goku/Vegeta or Goten/Trunks have never displayed. They have a completely unique set of fighting techniques, which just confirm that their a completely unique individual.
  
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Cooler vs Goten and Trunks

@ReiKai said:

A better question is Why Wouldn't they?  There is no end run around this. You can't proven Goten and Trunks can go any higher than SSJ without Fusion, and that's the end of it.

The reason because the fused character are a completely different entity from that of the people who were used to fuse them; see Gogeta exact quote. I just provided evidence above that suggest they accessed a higher form that can be interpreted to mean them individually accessing a higher SSJ transformation.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Cooler vs Goten and Trunks

@ReiKai said:

Explanation: As Previously noted, they could only go SS3 while as Gotenks. They are Both exhausted and the purpose of training was to match their PLs and master the Fusion Dance. Going SS3 also diminishes the time they can remain as Gotenks due to the energy consumption involved.  Nothing has changed. Unless you got something showing Goten and Trunks Separately as ASSJ's or anything about a normal SSJ, then you really don't have an argument.

When has it been shown that people who fuse are aware of what they did when fused ?
 
It has always been indicated that the fused character is completely different being from the two characters who they are fused from, so where would they have recalled accessing SSJ 3 from then ? In the words of Gogeta "I am not Goku or Vegeta I am Gogeta its over Janemba I've come fro you".
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Goku Vs. Wonder Woman

@othus12
 
Referring to when Goku is SSJ and casual side stepping freiza's death beam which were said to appear as a flash of light.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Cooler vs Goten and Trunks

@ReIKai
 
Explain this statement made by Goten while inside the room of spirit of time training with Trunks.
 *Context: Trunks and Goten resting after training*
Goten:I can't believe their is something even stronger than a SSJ.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Cooler vs Goten and Trunks

@EganTheVile1 said:

@shonen said:

@XImpossibruX said:

@Sonata said:

@XImpossibruX: Metal Cooler would give them a tougher fight, the original Cooler not so much.

It's hilarious how some people on the Vine think Final Form Cooler can beat 2 Super Saiyans.

The same 2 Super Saiyans who gave Android 18 a good fight, and she is way above Early SSj level.

They didn't really give 18 a good fight. She was holding back the hold time.

She was not holding back, she just realized that she was fighting Trunks and Goten who were wearing the Mighty Mask costume and cut the costume in half revealing who they were and getting them DQ'd... It was the best tactic she could use to win, as for the question at hand, Cooler gave base level Goku a decent fight, and was undoubtedly stronger then his brother or father, but he still fell short against an SSJ, now it could be argued Trunks and Goten are no where near Goku's skill, but since they achieved fusion, and I did not see a no fusion clause, I would say that since they have the ability to become Gotenks, an SSJ 3 they have an edge, beyond that since we are talking a movie continuity character like Cooler, I will point out that they survived against Broly, a stronger character.

I'm not going through this explanation again. please refer to my post from the last 2 pages.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Cooler vs Goten and Trunks

@ohgodwhy said:

@shonen: Yeah obviously normal humans wouldn't be able to move around very much but someone like Goku who trains constantly with that that weight on, who's probably more than 100x stronger than your average human wouldn't have much trouble moving around with that weight on.

To Goku, having 250lbs on him must've felt like having less than 5lbs on a regular human, is what I'm getting at.

Heck I bet some real life body builders could easily move around with 250lbs on their body. 50lbs is about 22kg. I bicep curl 18kg with one arm for 10 reps and I'm by no means big at all. Most bodybuilders can easily bicep curl at least 80lbs. So having 250lbs of weighted clothing on isn't even that much of a big deal. Lets look at it another way, the Bench Press record is 1075lbs. Yeah the guy only did it for one rep, but that's one human lifting 4x Goku's weighted clothing.

Lol. Yeah her technique is crap, but still.....

Hope you can see now that 250lbs for Goku would be like 5lbs for a regular human.

 
Except when goku friends tried on his clothes they were shown to have problems moving about the battle field and asked Goku how he was able to fight in all of this. Tien was even shocked by the weight of the clothes and said " he (Goku) was able to fight me in all of this" . They made it out be a big deal, but while the numbers appear small for the Z fighters, we should not forget Toriyama thought Goku lifting 40 tons by Buu arc would be a good idea. This is early dragon ball by the way. Another instance is when Piccolo and Goku fought raditz. Their power level were about 312-330 i think and when they removed their weighed clothing it jumped to 400-450.
 
I'm not familiar with all weight, techniques but their is one where you have dumbells and you move them up from your hips in a  clockwise direction  until the weights are aligned with your shoulders then move them back down to your hips. Its much more difficult to do than bicep curls, and would what i'd image punching would feel like wearing the weights.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Cooler vs Goten and Trunks

@niBBit said:

@ohgodwhy: Agreed. There suit should have handicapted them by some degree but to say that there power is cut by like 75% is ludicrous. The boys are great martial artists Goten was able to spar with Gohan SSJ, hell in there suit they manged to land some weird kicks at 18 witch an normal person could never do, 18 got behind Mighty Mask and Goten turned his body while Trunks was facing forward and kicked her in the gut, try doing that yourself without breaking some stuff :)

As for this battle, the boys would murder Cooler, even 1 vs 1 Cooler gets murdered.

In the manga the boys never landed a hit on 18. Though I do agree they win against Cooler.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Olibu vs Vegeta

@niBBit said:

@shonen: So...weighted clothes give an greater speed boost than an SSJ? When Goku was fighting Frieza with the Kaio-Ken and Frieza was at 50% of his maximum, Frieza moved so fast Goku could' even see him and could't even touch him. Goku then goes SSJ and was keeping up with Frieza at 100%. Gohan had trouble keeping up with Cell but when he went SSJ2 he was way faster then Cell even at Full Power. During those fights with Cell Goku had his standaard Orange GI outfit wwitch has weight in them, so if Goku drops his clothes and fight in his underwear he has enough speed to match Cell at Full Power? Why doesn;t Goku drop his clothes in time when he is in battle like he did in the other early saga's?

So out of all those battles that we have seen during all those saga's Pikkon is the only one smart enough to drop his clothes and gain an speed advantage? and Vegeta/Trunks/Goku never crossed there mind of doing this?

SSJ transformation gives more speed increase than some clothes. the weighted clothes had more meaning in the early stages but not during thr freaking Cell Games. Heck the wiki even stated that the last time clothes had an impact is when Piccolo fought with Frieza but even that is debatable.

Again, Pikkon and Goku where fighting equally in there first match alright? then Goku goes SSJ witch gives an huge powerboost right? so at FPSSJ he should dominate Pikkon right? but wait... Pikkon drops is imba zomgbbq clothes and matches the speed and power of that of an SSJ witch is x50. No way. Do you truly believe weighted clothes gave Pikkon THAT much power? read the examples i gave you.

Actually Goku did away with weighed clothes since freiza saga. This was mention when Yamcha asked king kai whether goku was still being worned down by weighted clothes. King kai responded, no the clothes gokou has on are durable but they aren't weighed down.
 
Like I said the clothes Pikkon has on him does not equal the clothes worm by Goku and his friends. Weighed clothing differs between fighters.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Cooler vs Goten and Trunks

@ohgodwhy said:

@shonen: Their suits really don't weigh them down that much lol. I mean they can still move around pretty freely. I'd imagine it being more like wearing a 30lb body suit or something in comparison (probably a lot less seeing as how much stronger they are than a normal human anyway), enough to slow you down but not affect your performance massively, provided you engage in regular training.

Its estimated the body suit goku was wearing at 23rd Budokai when fighting tien is 250 lbs  (boots, armbands and shirt 50 pounds each) . The reason it doesn't appear to affect goku in battle is because goku has been training with it before coming to the tournament. It follows the same principle as Kame-sennin turtle shell. When goku was fighting tien, tien was faster than goku, but once goku removed his weighed clothing he was so fast that Tien had problems tracking his movements, and even when he caught him, Goku had time to grab tien's robe before he was aware. Compare this then to trunks and goten fighting 18, in clothes that don't weigh anything, and them standing on top of each other. 
 
Goku 's  friends themselves tried moving around in the clothes and they found it quite difficult to even fight in it.
 
This is why like i said I much rather prefer fighting someone while standing on top of my best friend than fight someone while trying to move my limbs because I have 
 
50 lb shirt, armband and boots strapped to my body and can't lift a limb.
 
Its obvious goku and company would have increased their weights as they got more powerful.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Olibu vs Vegeta

  @niBBit said:

@shonen: I like how you only comment on the first episode and not the second. Goku goes to FPSSJ witch increases his power tremendously compared to his base..so if Goku at base was keeping up with Pikkon in the speed department than at FPSSJ he should have no problems whatsoever right? Funny because when Goku goes FPSSJ Pikkon is way faster than Goku and shows that he's much faster than Goku. Imagine that... Pikkon is faster than Goku at FPSSJ but not at base??

Goku at FPSSJ should be an hella lot faster and stronger than at base...duh right? but Pikkon has shown to be the better man. Thats PIS.

As for the weighted clothes, i don't have to remind you that an SSJ transformation is x50, so Pikkon had such weight on him that his power increased at the very least 50 times? I'm not buying that. Imagine that Goku goes SSJ witch increases his power by x50 and then Pikkon removes his clothes and he increases his power by x50, screw SSJ weighted clothes FTW.

 
@Shonen No because Weighed clothing has been shown to not only increase,power and ki, but also Speed. This was most  evident when Goku fought Tienshinhan. Tien was faster than Goku but once Goku took off his weighed clothing he moved so fast, that he was able to grab tien's sash before Tien could even notice it.

 
This is exactly what the writers were leaning at since this is TOEI. The people who brought us the wonderful show called GT.  Why do you think GOku turns SSJ after he takes off his heavy weight, and not at the start of the match.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Cooler vs Goten and Trunks

@ohgodwhy said:

@shonen said:

@Speedforcespider The ASSJ transformation is a transformation as evident when android 18 states that vegeta is transforming before he began to battle Semi-Perfect Cell. It is just not the true ascended transformation of the SSJ, but Is a transformation in its own right

http://www.daizex.com/guides/transformations/saiyan/

Also Trunks stated Vegeta was able to have taken a couple of months ( 2-3 months) by Trunks to obtain ASSJ, he used the remaining months to train and fight effectively with it in battle. Trunks and Goten had 1 full month in the ROSAT, and were shown training together. It was shown in the series that training together one can progress faster than someone training alone. Vegeta and Trunks trained by themselves, so the time taken for them to obtain the form would have been longer than with Trunks and Goten.

I estimate then that Trunks and Goten obtain the ASSJ just shortly before the arrival of Super Buu, which also would explain how they were able to access the SSJ3 transformation.

@ohgodwhy

I’m going to analyzing your argument and breaking it down into point forms.

That analogy you used doesn't really have much meaning here. Android 18 was joking around with SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks, she could've killed them easily at anytime. In fact I would say she was more serious during her fight against Trunks and Goten.

Android 18 wasn't using her full strength in either case, as evident by the fact that she thought Mighty mask was a regular human and was holding back the whole time. Trunks and Goten did not even get a hit in on her, and she was in control of the whole fight. While SSJ Vegeta was shown to get hits in on 18, and actually knock her into the ground and fire a direct ki blast that incinerated her close, and left scorch marks on her body.

Also my analogy does fit it is just you never understood it really to begin with. Here is something closer to home.

http://youtu.be/BNNX3k_golI

Piccolo is stated to have a power level of 3.5 K yet none of his attacks were shown to surprise and alarm vegeta. While Gohan masenko had a power level of 2,800 and Vegeta is shown visible shock and startled telling Nappa to watch out he is more powerful than he appears. The reason for this is because they weren’t expecting a 3 year old to have so much power for his age, This scenario is similar for 18 at the Budokai.

Also both translations still show that she was shocked by their strength. Which obviously shows she wasn't anticipating them to be anywhere near as strong as they were. When she fought Vegeta, nothing he did even fazed her.

Nothing fazed her because both 18 and 17 already had personal information on Vegeta, and had a rough idea of how powerful he was, even though vegeta did exceed their expectations they gradually were able to assess his strength in battle. Trunks and Goten are two little kids who were able to fire off a powerful attack at a level well beyond their years. This would shock anyone in battle. Think of it as fighting a little girl who is able to hit as hard as mike Tyson, wouldn’t that shock you in a fight ?

Besides she had to dodge the attack, if she was strong enough she could've easily taken the hit like she could against Vegeta or failing that she could've deflected it. Trust me, that attack they did would've caused 18 some serious harm.

She decided to dodge the attack does not indicate that she would have gotten damage; it was just her preference to doge the attack. Even when battleling Vegeta she showed preference to dodge ki base attacks whenever possible rather than taking them head on or deflecting them. Possibly because she doesn't want her clothes all ruined as evident when vegeta attack actually hit her in the androic arc.

Example - 18 choose to dodge vegeta attack rather than take it head on.

http://i.imgur.com/LlMF1.jpg

Then you say that she was holding back and she was at the disadvantage because she didn't want to kill them. Do you honestly think they wanted to kill her too? Chances are they didn't realize just how powerful they were because like you said, they don't have great ki control. I doubt they wanted to kill innocent people too. As well as this they had the massive disadvantage of fighting on each others shoulders. They were frustrated during that fight because they couldn't get in sync with each other, as they both stated several times. That's a huge disadvantage.

Budokai tournament rules state that if you kill a combatant you are disqualified from the tournament.Android 18 did not know who mighty mask was, and wrote him off as a human, if she pushed to hard and fought at full strength she could have possibly killed him and lose any chance of gaining the prize money. I never said Trunks and Goten wanted to kill her.

Actually I said Goten does not have ki control as in Goten has poor aim and control over his kamehameha attack as evident against his match with trunks. Whether they wanted to or not is not the problem. The problem is 18 realize it was Goten and Trunks the minute they turned SSJ, what she didn’t know was whether it wasTrunks or Goten who was firing the shots. Also whether they wanted to or not the first Attack they fired was rather close and near to the city, she couldn’t risk them firing another shot and damaging/KILLING someone. Think of it as equivalent to a grown woman trying to disarm a gun from a small child who is firing the gun in the middle of the street.

Goku at 23 Budokai was able to fight effectively against Tienshinhan wearing weighed clothing. The clothes Trunks and Goten wore was not weighed down and would only provide mild disadvantage in moving about in the battle field. This is the only disadvantage it gave and it did not slow down how fast they punched or kicked in base. It can also be seen that them not being in sync actually is an advantage more than a disadvantage seeing that 18 would have a hard press time in determining their attacks since its two independent minds controlling the arms and legs. Lastly, Trunks stating their at a disadvantage is in keeping with his character, he is a little kid after all, and would use any excuse possible to explain his failings.

Finally we don't know how well she would've done against them when they went SSJ. She only won that fight because she outsmarted them and attacked their middle. They both went the wrong way to dodge and thus ended up being split in half. So she was basically pushing them back a little in the base form and as soon as they turned SSJ and fired off what they thought was a weak ki blast, she had no choice but to dodge it and showed great shock at how much power they had.

Actually the destructo disc is actually a good indicator her powers against gotten and trunks. It has been shown numerous times in the series that the destructo disc is one of the slowest base ki attacks, even slower than a generic ki blast.

Example

Freiza was able to dodge a barrage of krillin destructo disc attacks casually in his 2 form. Nappa evaded krillins destructo disc within inches of it hitting him. Goku evaded Freiza’s destructo disc casually without showing any signs of trouble. Yet when Trunks and Goten are faced with android 18 destructo disc in the scan below, they are shown panicking from the attack, and failed to casually move out the way as so many fighters in the past have done. This indicates that 18 still had the advantage.

The anime also alludes to her fighting the kids just fine when they are SSJ.

http://i.imgur.com/Sfh11.jpg

I thought you were raising some vaild points before, points that I disagreed with, but valid nonetheless but then you went and said that. They were at a HUGE disadvantage, for you to say that they were at a mild disadvantage and then to change even that to a advantage is to me, ludicrous. Try fighting with someone on your shoulders and tell me that it's easier. Trunks basically had no use of his legs and Goten had no use of his arms so obviously that's an almost debilitating handicap right there. The weighted clothes arguement that you made holds no weight here (pardon the pun). Like I said, I'd rather fight in weighted clothes than on top of someone's shoulders and so can most people in the world I imagine.

I kind of get what you're saying about having two independent minds fighting but at the end of the day they can't communicate effectively with one another at all. Say if Trunks wants to back off but Goten wants to kick, then there's obviously going to be a problem there. If Trunks wants to move anywhere, he'd have to give a vocal command to Goten which would obviously waste a lot time and probably give away their next move to their opponent.

Plus they both were having problems, not just Trunks.

Sorry man but I totally, 100% disagree with that particular statement.

As for the rest of your arguement, she knew Might Mask wasn't an ordinary human. This was evident when both Might Mask and 18 totally ignored Hercule and unless she's stupid she should've realised he wasn't an ordinary human he started flying.

Most of DBZ is pretty open to interpretation so while I respect your opinion, I don't really agree with it. Only that one point I really strongly disagreed with.

I rather fight with someone on top of me, than try to fight someone wearing 250 lb body suit on me.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Olibu vs Vegeta

@SpeedForceSpider said:

@niBBit: No. Zenkai's only work for near-death experiences.

@shonen: *Facepalm*

Gohan one-shotted those Cell Jr's at SSJ2 and made Cell regurgitate after one hit. I suggest you re-watch DBZ.

 
 
You forgot to mention cell survive a series of hits from gohan prior to him regurgitating.  Though now that I am thinking of all this the feat doesn't make any sense since Pikkon was having difficulty with FPSSJ Goku and FPSSJ  Goku during the cell games literally crapped his pants at Full powered cell who then took 2 hits from gohan, and was shown badly damaged, yet pikkon recovers from Goku's  Kai-o-ken attack almost instantly.
 
Cell jr roughly equal to ASSJ Vegeta~ASSJ Trunks.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Olibu vs Vegeta

@niBBit said:

@shonen: DBZ Abriged made fun of weighted clothes before, Piccolo's weighted clothes weighed around 50 kg or something...wtich becomes meaningless later in the series. Kamicollo having problem with 50 kg? don't think so.

You didn't provide anything that suggested they where equall. Lets look at the 2 episodes together shall we? first up: DBZ - 183 Final Round. Pikkon fight Goku in his base form, Goku rushed at Pikkon hitting him with several blows, Pikkon just stood there and took the hits in witch Goku replied:

Goku: I know your faster than this, its because those punches weren't strong enough to hurt you is that it.

Pikkon: *laughs*

Seconds later Pikkon punched Goku and sends him flying, Goku then used his speed and Pikkon is flustered/surprised by it, we get to this later. Goku and Pikkon clash and Goku tries to push Pikkon back, later Pikkon tried to push Goku back but he could't we get to this later. Pikkon then remoeves his weighted clothes and Goku goes FPSSJ and then the in the next episode DBZ - 184 Goku Vs Pikkon they fight.

All the previous things like strenght and speed witch Pikkon had trouble with goes out the window as Pikkon was dominating the fight against Goku FPSSJ. Goku starts the fight of by blasting at Pikkon and Pikkon with the utmost of ease dodges everything Goku trows at him witch is funny because Pikkon was first a little flustered by Goku's speed in base form witch is PIS because FPSSJ>>>>Base. When they where fighting in the air after Pikkon used his Thunder Flash Attack Goku said:

Goku: Darn! i need to catch him ofguard!

Pikkon smiles and speedblizes him sending him down to the arena, so on more than one occasion Pikkon has shown that he is alot faster then Goku at FPSSJ, and if thats true Pikkon being suprised/flustered by Goku's speed at base is simply PIS as FPSSJ>>>>>>Base. Pikkon not able to push Goku back or had trouble keeping up with him at base and then the next episode dominating Goku at FPSSJ is PIS.

EDIT: Looking at the weighted clothes, your telling me that Pikkon's clothes weigh so heavy that his PL increased at least x50? as an SSJ transformation is x50? those are some heavy clothes.

 
DBZ Abridge= Cannon now ? Weighed clothing aren't all equal dude.  Yes and I am saying that since the weight of the clothes were never determined. Also if weighed clothing didn't matter Piccolo wouldn't have been wasting his time every damn fight to take off his weighed clothing.
 
Let's look at all the little things you omitted to provide your argument.   

 
DBZ Episode 198
After Goku punches Pikkon  
 
Goku: Well you better start blocking when I use my real strength (Indicating the series of punches initially were just sparing punches)
 
Pikkon : No (can't identify the word)

Pikkon punches Goku ,and goku is shown flying backward but recovers before Pikkon Ki blast are able to connect.  Goku vanishes with Pikkon astonished and confused. Goku appears above Pikkon and tries to hit him. Pikkon dodges the dissapears causing Goku to be on guard while waiting for him to appear.
 
(This indicates Pikkons attacks are on a level that base goku can handle, which is much lower than the level cell hits would be)
 
Pikkon fires a series of ki blast at goku with goku shown to evade all the blast.  Goku then fires his ki blast and pikkon dodges it.  Pikkon fires his ki blast and goku dodges it.
(This ki blast showing shows their speeds are comparable with one another) 
 
Both Pikkon and Goku fire controlled ki beams at each other that chase each other on the battle field. Both beams cancel out each other.
 
(This indicates that Base goku ki attacks can harm Pikkon, and emit similar levels of  energy.)
 
Goku and Pikkon begin grappling  with both combatant shown putting in  effort and strain. Goku begins pushing Pikkon outside the ring.
 
(This indicates Base Goku has more strength than weighed cloth Pikkon)
 
King Kai: At a boy Goku push him right out
 
Grand Kai: Looky looky these kids are something to watch
 
(Indicating grand kai is more impressed with Goku fight with Pikkon than his fight with Olibu) 
 
Goku pushes pikkon at the edge of the ring with Pikkon shown to be visibly trying to push back with all his strength
 
Pikkon: Is this the real strength your talking about or are you just playing with me.
 
Pikkon begins pushing back
 
Goku holds his ground
 
Pikkon : Why can't I push him back. i no he can't be stronger than me.
 
(Weighed clothes Pikkon shows doubt showing that Base goku is in his league)
 
Pikkon attempts to kick GOku. Goku breaks the grapel and dodges the kick with gracefully
 
Pikkon GIVES A MEAN STARE AT GOKU
 
Pikkon: Your much stronger than I thought GOku.
 

 
All evidence point to weighed clothes Pikkon is roughly on par with Base Goku during the cell games.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Olibu vs Vegeta

@SpeedForceSpider said:

@shonen said:

@SpeedForceSpider said:

Pikkon took a Super Kaioken punch to the face he is pretty overpowered IMO.

Yep that is overpoweredthe kai-o-ken was x2. So he literally got hit by SSJ 2.

Yeah and if we take that feat seriously then he is a low tier SSJ2 level like Super Perfect Cell.

You mean Pikkon. Taking one hit from a SSJ2 doesn't make you a Super perfect cell level.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Olibu vs Vegeta

@SpeedForceSpider said:

Pikkon took a Super Kaioken punch to the face he is pretty overpowered IMO.

Yep that is overpoweredthe kai-o-ken was x2. So he literally got hit by  SSJ 2.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Olibu vs Vegeta

@niBBit said:

@shonen: Like i said that was PIS i my book. Pikkon being a little flustered by Goku's speed and strenght like not able to push him back like you said but in the next episode Goku went FSSJ and Pikkon dominated the battle, overpowering him. So Goku (base) strenght>>Goku FSSJ strenght?

You forgot to mention Pikkon also before fighting Goku at Full power took off his weighed clothing which has been shown to lower battle power, speed and strength throughout the series. The amount of weighed clothing is undetermined but it must have been enough to bridge the gap between Base Goku and FPSSJ  goku. I listed many instances in the fight that happened, that shows they were about equal initially.
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