ohgodwhy (Level 11)

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Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Itachi vs 1st hokage hashirama

@sickVisionz: Maybe not all intelligence but they're certainly not as effective as they would normally be. You can see yourself from the fight, they were just attacking with very basic attacks and not many follow up techniques, almost like they were waiting for orders. Also like I already said, there's no way the real 1st and 2nd would get tagged by explosive tags or caught by Hiruzen when he used his Death God technique.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Kakuzu & Hidan Vs. Deidara & Sasori

@sickVisionz: I have to disagree with you about Deidara being weak. He beat kage Gaara and he only lost to Sasuke, well because everyone loses to Sasuke. Sasuke is a hax character, he's fought and won against some of the most powerful ninja in the Narutoverse and won because his sharingan is hax.

I wouldn't say Deidara is the weakest, that honour goes to Hidan imo who was pretty pathetic given his showings. He barely beat Asuma and was beaten by Shikamaru, who is a very intelligent ninja, but still you have to wonder would Shikamaru have had such an easy time against any of the other Akatsuki.

As for his Deidara, he can do a lot more than just fly and kill himself. Like I said earlier he had already proven himself by defeating Gaara earlier on. Gaara or Asuma? It's pretty obvious defeating Gaara is a far superior feat. Yes he used underhanded tactics but that's using his intelligence and shows great situational awareness, no different from how Shikamaru beat Hidan.

Deidara could create several explosive birds which could fly around, surround and destroy Hidan. However his most deadly attack was when he released millions of microscopic bombs into the air. This was probably one of the most deadly techniques seen in the series and if Sasuke didn't have his hax (sharingan) then it would have been all over. Neither Hidan nor Kakazu have this luxury and would most likely be caught by the attack. Once you've taken a breath, it's all over as every cell in your body gets destroyed. Finally if he does somehow get pushed really far, which he wouldn't, his suicide attack is no joke. It was effectively a nuke and once again Sasuke only escaped because he is hax.

Sasuke was basically the worst possible opponent Deidara could have faced because his chidori attacks made most of Deidara's bomb useless and his sharingan always gives him an unfair edge anyway.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Itachi vs 1st hokage hashirama

@sickVisionz: It's like how Girugamesh said, Orochimaru's technique doesn't make them so much bloodlusted as it does turn them into mindless zombies. They weren't raging around, just using techniques without much strategy or foresight. Personally I don't know why some people insist on making characters bloodlusted, I'm sure some characters would be far weaker if they were bloodlusted and not thinking rationally.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Itachi vs 1st hokage hashirama

You're saying what Itachi himself said was dubious? Really? Itachi wasn't one for joking around and who knows his own strength better than himself.

Also you're right Kabuto did say that but he didn't mean on a strength level. Itachi didn't break free from edo tensei because of his strength, but because his own genjutsu worked against him. That genjutsu was originally meant for Sasuke not Itachi anyway. You're taking what Kabuto said out of context. Kabuto's statement is still valid, you can't keep disregarding what these characters are saying or changing the meaning of what they are saying to fit your own argument.

During the Oro vs Sandaime fight Hashirama was a mindless puppet. Yes he had his techniques but he wasn't able to fight as his normal self especially after Orochimaru implanted those kunai into him. I'm not saying he's any weaker , technique-wise, than he was, in fact I corrected someone once before that Orochimaru's edo tensei doesn't make someone weaker, but if you take away the shinobi's mind then he's half as powerful as he would be. You really think the real Hashirama would get tagged by the Sandaime and not realise? Of course not.

I have however changed my opinion and I do not think old Sandaime was as powerful as I had originally thought him to be.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Itachi vs 1st hokage hashirama

@TheNobody: Exactly. Hashirama was a mindless puppet. Yes he had his techniques but he wasn't able to fight as his normal self. I'm not saying he's any weaker than he was, in fact I corrected someone once before that Orochimaru's edo tensei doesn't make someone weaker, but if you take away the shinobi's mind then he's half as powerful as he would be. You really think the real Hashirama would get tagged by the Sandaime and not realise? Of course not.

Everyone says look at feats, but that was a severely handicapped Hashirama and we have it quoted from not one but two characters within the manga that Hashirama was one of the most powerful characters in the Naruto universe.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Itachi vs 1st hokage hashirama

@GIRUGAMESH said:

@ohgodwhy: Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Everything that has actually been shown so far suggests that Itachi may be able to take EMS Madara; the latter hasn't done anything that would put him above Itachi. Itachi still outclasses Madara in brains and he still has the best susano. Itachi's genjutsu would be a problem for Hashirama I think; Madara has shown a more direct approach with his attacks, attempting to overwhelm his opponents, whereas Itachi, it could be said, is a deadlier opponent, in that he has more attacks that spell insta-win for him: if he catches Hashirama in a genjutsu, it's over, if he hits him at all with his susano, it's over.

I'm sick of people using the current edo Madara to back up their Hashirama = God arguments, I really am. Yes he is mocking them, but his uber respect/hatred/admiration for Hashirama would likely make him biased anyway. He didn't even know the full extent of their power when he said that as well, as shown when he mocked Tsunade yet recognized her skills later when she released her self-regeneration jutsu. Anyway, feats>Madara's word, and the feats are most certainly against Hashirama here.

Yes, Kabuto did ackowledge him as being the strongest of the kages even in his old age. But then Hiruzen himself stated that he doubted anyone in the village could beat Orochimaru. And assuming he was the strongest kage at the time, so what? It could be said that Itachi is superior to any of those kage as well. If you really think an old Hiruzen>Itachi then I think you need to go back and read the series again, especially given that we still haven't seen everything Itachi has to offer.

Most of that first paragraph is just speculation. Nothing that Itachi has done so far suggested that he was more powerful than Madara as far as I can remember. He outclasses him in brains? I don't know where you pulled that out from, Madara is merely playing with the kages because he doesn't consider them competition. He knows they can't hurt him so he's willing to take hits. That was evident when he almost blew up everyone with his metorite attack.

Best susanoo? That's possible, I can't really disagree with that but as we have seen Itachi can't keep his Susanoo up for long as it causes a massive strain on his chakra. Even a healthy Sasuke at the kage summit couldn't keep Susanoo up for long and as we know Itachi was pretty much blind before his death. Madara has his EMS and has been using Susanoo without showing much strain.

Madara hasn't used genjutsu because he hasn't needed to, both have different fighting styles. Once again you're speculating, for all we know Hashirama can fight against genjutsu. Sasuke fought off Tsukiyomi without the MS and it wore Itachi out far too much to even bother trying again.

2nd paragraph starts of with more speculation. You assume he's biased yet there's no evidence. He recognised Tsunade's skill but didn't seem too impressed by it regardless. It's almost like he's nurturing the kages, he could easily kill them if he wanted too. What's to stop him from calling in another meteor or several meteors.

"It could be said that Itachi is superior to any of those kage as well" Possibly but it's not been said and you're just speculating. Itachi said himself that if he fought against Jirayai he would have drawn and there's no way he could have known about Jirayai's sage mode so this is normal Jirayai. Finally his EMS self and Sasuke aren't doing too great against Sage Kabuto either.

I've read the manga plenty of times lol that was a bit uncalled for. If Itachi does use that Izanagi technique then I'm fairly sure it's a suicide move or has a very high cost.

Back to the thread seeing as we've gotten sidetracked. Hashirama was also said to be able to self heal and create near perfect wood clones that fooled all the kages when Madara used the technique. If Itachi gets fooled it's all over. Hashirama can also change the entire battlefield into his own forest and he move around freely within the forest. Madara also released all those spores into the air which knocked out most of the kage and seems to have drained their stamina. We haven't seen hardly any of the 1st's techniques yet but Madara seems to be dominating all 5 of the kages with what techniques we have seen so far and Madara isn't even fighting seriously. He hasn't looked like he's strained so far at all.

I still say Madara's statements still stand. I think Kishi purposely keeps mentioning how powerful Hashirama is because he want's us to appreciate his strength. If Madara's words aren't enough for you then how about Kabuto's. He stated that there weren't any ninja in the current era who could match up to the 1st. You would assume that included Itachi as well seeing as he is recently deceased and is now back in edo form anyway.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Kakuzu & Hidan Vs. Deidara & Sasori

Kakazu is very powerful. I can see this coming down to whoever can kill each other's heart first. Kakazu has only 5 hearts but is pretty powerful whereas Sasori has hundreds of puppet bodies into which he can transfer his heart into.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Kakuzu, Kisame, and Itachi Vs. Mihawk, Crocodile, and Jinbe

@FormerCrimsonKing: haha I was just about say that.

As for the perfect defence, that's debatable. He did have the yata shield, but the whole point of the yata shield is that it nullifies all elemental attacks, it doesn't say anything about physical attacks. I would also say that Madara has shown to have the most powerful Susanoo because he would have had longer to perfect it and he had the EMS and yet his Susanoo was completely ripped through by the Raikage and Tsuchikage as well as Tsunade. Mihawk's strength far surpasses any of those guys.

I was also saying Kakuzu would beat Crocodile btw, I may have just worded it wrong although othus12 makes a good point of Crocodile could just dry Kakuzu up before he has a chance. It would be close.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Kakuzu & Hidan Vs. Deidara & Sasori

I think team 2 would win this. Deidara vs Hidan would be a win for Deidara I think, Hidan's not shown himself have amazing skills and seems to have one all his battle using his suicide move which wouldn't be effective against Deidara if he goes airborne. Then I think Deidara could just blow Hidan into smithereens.

Kakazu and Sasori are definitely the two heavy weights here though. Personally I think Sasori would take this though. His arsenal is just too impressive, he has 100 puppets which could just overwhelm Kakazu. Then he has the Kazekage puppet which is pretty powerful and all his iron sand is poisoned so if it hits Kakazu once it's potentially all over. His body is a weapon in itself with flamethrowers and cables. Finally Kakazu has only 5 hearts, whenever Sasori's body is destroyed he can just switch his heart to another puppet almost instantaneously. He only lost to Sakura and Chiyo because he was tricked with his parents puppets.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Kakuzu, Kisame, and Itachi Vs. Mihawk, Crocodile, and Jinbe

Team 2 should win this I believe. Mihawk's already got the title of the strongest swordsman in the OP world which says lots about the power he possesses. Susanoo would be useless against Mihawk's powerful slashes which have been shown to cut giant glaciers and ships in half with ease. Mihawk also has incredible speed, even Luffy in gear 2 was barely dodging his slashes and Luffy in gear 2 is probably faster than almost everyone in Naruto and with his hawk eyes he has incredible vision and can defend from almost any attack. He was one of the very few people who escaped from Marineford without even a scratch.

Jinbei would have to fight Kisame because Kisame vs Crocodile would just be a complete mismatch. This would actually be quite close but I can imagine Kisame fighting similarly to Hodi Jones who was defeated fairly easily by Jinbei earlier on in the series. It would be close but personally I think Jinbei would win this with his fishman karate.

Crocodile vs Kakuzu would also be quite close I can imagine because Kakuzu can also use water techniques but not as well as Kisame. I think if you take away logia intangibility from Crocodile then he could potentially lose this one.

Overall though I think Mihawk is just too powerful and could probably solo here.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Itachi vs 1st hokage hashirama

@GIRUGAMESH: So are you saying that Itachi could take EMS Madara who fought Harashima several times to a draw and who has himself stated that Harashima was the greatest shinobi of his generation? If you believe that then fair enough but personally I don't think Itachi was quite as powerful.

Personally I think Madara's statement still stands. I can appreciate that newer generations of shinobi could be more powerful than their predecessors but as we can see Madara is dominating all 5 of the kages at once and he is continuously mocking them saying that ninja are weaker now than they were in his time.

Also I still say that an Elderly Hiruzen was one of the most powerful shinobi ever. Kabuto acknowledged him as still being the strongest out of all the kages at the time.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Itachi vs 1st hokage hashirama

@sickVisionz: Completely agree with this. Everyone somehow seems to have gotten it into their heads that the 3rd hokage was weak and I really don't understand how. It's been stated and shown that the Edo Tensei techinique doesn't make a ninja any weaker.

I suppose you could say that Orochimaru's Edo Tensei wasn't as good as Kabuto's because it made them into mindless puppets but it still stands that the 3rd hokage in old age fought almost equally against the 1st, 2nd and Orochimaru.

Now Harashima has been stated by, Madara himself, to have been the greatest shinobi of their time. Itachi's very powerful but even Itachi admitted that if he fought Jirayai it would have been to a draw. I don't think there's really much competition here, Harashima would take this.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Itachi vs 1st hokage hashirama

I know it might be a bit late to say this but never underestimate the 3rd hokage. I still maintain that the 3rd hokage was probably the most powerful ninja in the entire series.

"In fact, he was so powerful that he was admired as theGod of Shinobi (忍の神, Shinobi no Kami) in his prime. Even in his old age, he was said to be the strongest Hokage that Konoha ever had as well as the strongest of all the five Kage at the time of his death.

Edit: OH wow this deleted half my post, stupid website. Basically Harashima wins.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Madara Uchiha vs Whitebeard

@Haofan123: I agree it's my bad really but we're already into this debate now lol feel free to join in, maybe I can change the thread title or something. It's pretty much a Madara vs Akainu thread anyway so feel free to create one if you want.

Edit: I don't think I can change the thread title.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Madara Uchiha vs Whitebeard

@Nerx: 1. That's silly. How would they destroy them all?

2. Amaterasu is slow burning, I agree with that but once it's on you there's no getting it off unless you remove the clothing, chop off your limbs or the user decides to inactivate it. It seems to cause great pain when it touches skin and as has been shown before it stomps on other fires.

3. I already referred to the ecosphere statement. Yes they did that but they did it over 3 days. Like I said earlier Madara changed the battlefield in seconds. Also Nagato destroyed Konoha in one move, I'd say that was pretty battlefield changing and I haven't seen anyone in OP other Whitebeard unleash an attack of that caliber. Before you say it took all of the 6 paths to do that attack remember that the 6 paths of Pein are just all his powers split into 6 and Madara is probably able to do a more powerful version of the attack.

4. Gaara said "Is he a god" when he called in the meteorite. Also the rinnegan has the power to revive the dead which is pretty amazing and certainly no such power has been seen in the OP verse. The statement is obviously a hyperbole but it gives indication to his overwhelming powers.

5. Earth, Water whatever. Magma is just like fire in the end and fire is weak against water and earth regardless of the universe. If you have a fire what do you put it out with... water. What happens when magma reaches the sea? It turns to stone.

6. The no haki statement stands because it's the same thread, we shouldn't need to agree to it. I 100% agree that if we give the admirals haki they will win because it lets them react to lightspeed attacks a.k.a Kizaru. It's the same as if we give them logia intangibility they will win. But then someone could say Madara has Genjutusu so he could win. There's a reason I'm not giving either one those powers and that is because it would make the battle unfair.

7. Rather than trying to find flaws in my statements could you please come up with your own.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Madara Uchiha vs Whitebeard

@Nerx: What do you mean he can mash it with gura 2? Isn't the gura gura no mi Whitebeard's fruit? The whole point of a substitution is it's meant to get mashed so it can cause a distraction. Harshima's substitutions are near perfect, no one could see through them until it was too late. Same should apply for the admirals.

Now you're just underestimating amaterasu. There has never been any showing that I can remember where Amaterasu was defeated. At the end of the day though the real strength of Amaterasu is that it is a directed attack. It burns whatever the user the see, so unless you can escape his eyes you're going to get burned. Yes they don't radiate heat but I still believe that magma vs amaterasu would equal a win for amaterasu.

I don't remember any attack from the admirals cracking marineford, only Whitebeard nearly destroyed Marineford. Yes Akainu and Aokiji transformed the landscape of an island which is very impressive indeed but they did it over a time period of 3 days. Madara completely changed the landscape of the battlefield in seconds when he turned the whole battlefield into a forest, which he effectively controlled at his whim.

Also we haven't yet mentioned that fact that Madara has the rinnegan which grants him near god-like powers. If his powers are anything like Nagato's (which they probably are and possibly better) he can summon monsters by the dozens, can attract or repel anything like when summoned a meteor (Nagato destroyed all of Konoha with one attack), as well as giving him access to all types of chakra. This means he could use earth techniques as well which are obviously magma's natural enemy and knowing Madara he can use them at a really high level.

I think with the exception of Kizaru who could just speed blitz Madara would put up a good fight against the other two admirals and possibly win.

We are still assuming no haki here for the admirals so they can't predict attacks and no logia based defense. They can still transform into their respective states but aren't immune to damage.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Madara Uchiha vs Whitebeard

@Nerx: The point of substitution jutsus isn't too withstand damage but to create a distraction so the user can launch a surprise attack. He caught Tsunade with it and I don't see why he couldn't kill any of the admirals with it either.

I don't think Amaterasu is as hot as the sun, I'd never say it was because like you said it clearly isn't. However we do know that it can rip right through a fire frog stomach and so far once it hits someone there is no stopping it from killing you unless you remove a limb or the user removes it themselves. As for heat, it pretty much ate right through Sasuke fire jutsu but lets just say Akainu's magma is the same strength as Amaterasu for argument's sake.

Harashima's sleep technique wasn't a genjutsu. I'm fairly sure it released tiny spores into the air which when inhaled causes someone to fall unconscious.

Maybe they could stop his magatama attack, that's debatable.

I think the admirals could probably crack it too but I'm fairly sure it heals itself, it is just a form of chakra shield after all.

I think maybe we could say they're about even then. Madara = Admiral level. Madara has lots of techniques but the Admirals have raw power.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Madara Uchiha vs Whitebeard

@Nerx: His defence is definitely a weakness but as was seen in the recent chapters he can create almost perfect substitution jutsus. Attack strength wise Amaterasu will most likely be able to defeat Akainu's magma, he can put them all to sleep with Harashima's jutsu, his magatama attack was so powerful it needed both Gaara and the Tsuchikage's best defence to stop it.

I think he has enough skills to avoid being tagged and even if he did I think Susanoo could withstand a couple of blows from the admirals. Attack strength wise the admirals are not quite on the same level as Whitebeard.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Madara Uchiha vs Whitebeard

Lol got a bit side tracked here.

I think the general consensus here was Whitebeard would win. He certainly seems to be in a league of his own, even within the OP universe.

However I think I would place peak Madara slightly above an admiral, if you take away their haki powers and I think most people could agree with that.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,507 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Itsuki "Ikki" Minami vs Temari

Battle to the death.

Current Temari vs Current Ikki

No genjutsu

100m away at the start

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