ohgodwhy (Level 11)

@WhiteLion: A is the one who's overhyped.

I'd say the mistake is comparing Sasuke and Juugo to the 1st and 2nd. It's a whole different ball game, the 1st and 2nd would be leagues faster and leagues more powerful, unless you want to try and convince me that Sasuke could take one of them on. Like I said in another thread, speed is relative. Although it may have looked like a slow battle between Hiruzen and the 2 former kages, they may have actually been fighting at a speed similar to that of A. It's not totally impossible, and to say A is the third fastest character in the series is a fallacy. A thought he was the fastest character before he met Minato, yet he was outsped. He probably thought he was the second fastest character but then Naruto outsped him too. At the end of the day we have no idea how he compares to Hiruzen, they may in fact be very similar in speed and I wouldn't rule that out at all.

1st and 2nd didn't want to fight him? That wouldn't have mattered anyway because they were totally mind controlled, they had no say in the matter. They were fighting at their full power, maybe not using their best jutsus but they weren't holding anything back. Kabuto's Edo Tensei was different from Orochimaru's because he purposefully let his Edo's retain their personalities thinking it would let them fight better and morally cripple his enemies. Trust me the 1st and 2nd were coming at Hiruzen with all they had. Even the Top Anbu members at the time were amazed by the high level of the battle and those are some of the most powerful ninja in Konoha

Oonoki is slow and old. He was also soundly beaten in his youth by Madara, this was shown in a flashback. Yes he has a very powerful jutsu but it's only effective if it connects so in order for it to work he has to trap his enemy. I don't see how he could do that against the God of Shinobi.

It's not all hype, I really don't understand how people can just take all character statements as hype. That's just plain old ridiculous. 3 people stated it, why would the author of the manga state it 3 different times from 3 different people if it wasn't true. It's a manga, things are said for a reason. Also it was in the databook, there's no possible comeback that you can provide for this that isn't wrong. Hiruzen in his prime was the GOD OF SHINOBI, he would've taken any of the Kage on easily.

Either way, the thirds been revived so we'll see what he can do now. As far as this battle goes, it's a win for the third.

@WhiteLion: What we do know is this.

Hiruzen fought the First and Second Hokages on his own for a while. Everyone knew that Hiruzen was well out of shape, Enma even stated he was miserable compared to his prime yet he was still able to fight against both of them for a while. Now admittedly there is no way that the 1st and 2nd were in their prime but the fact still stands that it was 2v1.

Madara stating that ALL the kages were crap compared to the 1st Hokage and that they should all practically be ashamed of themselves. What does this say about the Raikage?

Raikage's speed is massively over hyped because he made Sasgay look like a little girl. IMO that's really not that impressive, Sasgay's speed wasn't out of this world.

Oonoki would destroy Hiruzen? Right sure. Did I mention the part where Hiruzen fought against the 1st, 2nd and Orochimaru? Did I also forget to mention that Orochimaru is pretty much a kage level himself. Why's Oonoki getting so hyped anyway? Because of what he did to Sasgay?

Kabuto's not the only one to have made that statement. Iruka said it too and so did Orochimaru. It's also in the first databook. Hiruzen in his prime was the God of Shinobi, just accept that fact and move on. In his old age, he may have lost a lot of chakra but his techniques would have remained.

Even old third Hokage would beat Raikage. There's a reason he was known as the God of Shinobi in his prime.

Check Naruto chapter 140, page 3. Kabuto outright states that he was the strongest of the Five Kage at the time, even in his old age.

Prime Hiruzen was without a doubt the strongest Kage.

Easy win for the Raikage.

If Lee could somehow open all gates though (Possibly in Part 2) then his power should surpass that of the Raikage's and in a 5 mile race I would assume it could last long enough to give him the win.

Edit: I missed the 5 gate limit, yeah Lee loses.

Luffy's probably slightly stronger or at the least equal to Zoro. You just have to look at their teachers, Zoro was trained by the Mihawk who's pretty damn awesome but Luffy was trained by Silvers Rayleigh who is just legendary and was easily able to fight against a marine admiral. Other than that though we can't really tell as neither has come anywhere near straining themselves since the timeskip, unless they've been hindered by some outside factor.

Standard shounen rules also point to Luffy being stronger and he always ends up fighting the main boss who is usually the strongest but like I said they could be equal too. I'm against anyone saying Zoro's stronger though.

You say non Edo Madara but we have no idea how Madara fights without his Edo and the infinite chakra that comes through being Edo.

However, Edo Mardara had he not been in Edo form would've died several times already. It's only because he's in Edo form that he continues to live. What we also know about Madara was that before he died, he got beaten by Shodaime and this was while he had the 9 tails under his control. He didn't have the rinnegan then either.

All in all, what I'm saying is there's not much point in making a thread about non Edo Madara because we have no idea how powerful he really is.

As for this thread, Madara would lose to Mihawk in scenario 1. Speedwise, Mihawk should be faster as he was able to easily push back Gear 2 Luffy and strength wise, he's far superior to Madara.

Once Madara's activated Perfect Susanoo though, then the power advantage would certainly seem to shift in Madara's advantage so he should be able to claim the win as his sword swings also have a wide area of effect. However, Mihawk could possibly still avoid them using his superior speed. We haven't really seen enough of Perfect Susanoo to come to a conclusion.

Vash wins, much faster than the other two.

Lol, well he's pretty powerful. He's been shown to summon lightening, he uses it in a few of his moves although it's nowhere near the level of Kirin. He can generate giant shockwaves and he easily took out an entire legion/army of soldiers by himself. He's easily a bullet timer, most of the SC cast are (Mitsurugi was shown to be able to dodge rifle round in Soul Blade and Ivy dodged Cervantes bullets from close range). In the SC4 opening he can generate fire, hot enough to stop Siegfried from freezing over an entire tower and to create a giant flame on top of the tower.

3 mins in.

Nightmare vs Pre-MS Sasuke

Sasuke has all abilities that he had during the Itachi fight

No genjutsu

No mindfuck

Speed can be made equal but I'm fairly sure both are pretty much super sonic+, Sasuke's not shown to be anything faster than this and Nightmare via powerscaling.

Who wins?

@Jinbeifan1: I see, he's never really shown any such feat in the games or short films though but it's possible.

@ImDictatorBowDown: Yeah, you have a point there but like Jinbeifan1 said, Law's well out of Buggy's league and would easily end him with counter shock.

Unless Buggy somehow got super powerful over the two years and is the new shichibukai...............

@Jinbeifan1: You're right about his super strength, not sure about when he dodged bullets though?

Master Chief is still human, very peak human but still human whereas some of these anime characters show near superhuman/supersonic reactions speeds. I think if speed was equal, then the Chief would take the win.

Hmm, Trafalgar has his Room with which he pretty much cut an entire island in half. I don't see how Madara's going to get around that, in fact I don't really see how anyone can beat Trafalgar because we haven't really seen any weakness to his technique yet as far as I can tell. Madara doesn't have haki to shield himself either and all of Madara's attacks could be easily sent the other way once they enter the room and if Madara enters the room, then he's really boned.

I think I'd like to see if Trafalgar's DF has some real weaknesses because it seems pretty OPed at the moment. I think haki shielding may its weakness but Madara doesn't have that anyway.

Sousuke's a competent soldier, I think probably near peak human levels but not quite at Revy's level. Sousuke's main talent is piloting arm slaves, there's no one better at doing so than him. Mao also observed this.

I can't say I'm too familiar with the other two, but in a fight Revy should be able to take out Sousuke seeing as she could take on a guy who could cut bullets in half.

So for round 1 I'd say Revy

and for round 2, I'd say maybe Revy again.

But like I said, not too familiar with the other 2.

Maybe Team Naruto can win against the young versions, I don't remember them doing anything significant as their young versions.

However as the part 2 versions, it's a fairly easy win for team 2.

Minato should win this one, we've not really seen much of him but I feel fairly confident he'd win after a good fight.

@axavierhansz: Or it's possible that Majin Vegeta in his SSJ form was equivalent to Vegeta in his normal SSJ2 form. Then when he powered up to fight Vegeta he became SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, which let him match up to Goku's power level.

But it seems that the key difference between us is the gap between Goku and Vegeta. I believe that Goku was far beyond Vegeta, which is why Vegeta needed the added bonus to even match up to Goku whereas you seem to think that there was less of a gap between the two and the Majin transformation doesn't grant a significant power boost?

Either way lets leave this debate here, I see that I can't convince you and you haven't really convinced me either. Let whoever can be bothered to read our debate come up with their own conclusion as to how much of a power boost the Majin transformation gave to Vegeta.

@SpeedForceSpider said:

@niBBit: Exactly bro :) I'm on Opera as well @Supreme Marvel: Maybe that's why. On chrome it works just fine.

Yeah the anime really alters the situations to the point were it can sometimes be ridiculous. I agree with you 100% on this post :)

I don't get your pms most times either and I'm on chrome. Weird.

@axavierhansz: You raise good points but at the end of the day, the facts are the facts.

1) The Majin curse only worked on Vegeta because there was evil in his heart.

2) Dabura noted that Vegeta had a lot of evil in his heart. As the demon king, I'm sure he's fairly adept at identifying evil.

3) Piccolo himself told Vegeta that regardless of any good he may have done, he was still going to hell (or a different plane, as were his direct words) because of all his past transgressions.

4) He didn't seem too bothered when he killed all the hundreds of people in the crowd, twice. Or when he killed all the innocent Namekians. Or when he blew up that planet with those weird aliens on it (Although that was anime filler I'll admit).

As Piccolo has stated, Vegeta's soul would be cleansed in the otherworld. This would explain why he was no longer Majin and why he was able to be revived as a good guy wouldn't it?

Now as for my point about Goku being far superior to Vegeta. I believe that still stands, he was well beyond Vegeta ever since the Frieza saga and that gap only got wider, not narrower. The fact of the matter is this, Vegeta simply could not hold a candle to Goku if it wasn't for the Majin transformation. For me, this is clear evidence that the Majin transformation increased his power significantly. Plus like I stated, Goku trained in the other world for 7 years. He received numerous benefits over that time that Vegeta did not such as training from the Kais, Limitless Ki (This was hinted when he said he couldn't hold his SSJ3 transformation on Earth for Long), Immortality because he was already dead (So he could receive massive Zenkai boosts). What did Vegeta have? Gravity training?

But yeah, Goku's always been well ahead of Vegeta, it's the whole reason Vegeta let himself fall under the transformation as was stated by Vegeta himself. He knew the only way he could hope to even compete with Goku SSJ2 was to accept the becoming Majin and effectively selling his soul.

Finally, I think that first scan I posted does show that Vegeta was indeed impressed that Goku had finally surpassed Gohan. For me, it's clear, it's in the text and I think you're overthinking it. Like you said, it's DBZ, there's no need to overthink things. SSJ2 Teen Gohan was really powerful, Vegeta noted when Dabura and Gohan fought that Gohan's power had fallen significantly since the battle with Cell.