ohgodwhy (Level 11)

@GIRUGAMESH said:

@ohgodwhy: Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Everything that has actually been shown so far suggests that Itachi may be able to take EMS Madara; the latter hasn't done anything that would put him above Itachi. Itachi still outclasses Madara in brains and he still has the best susano. Itachi's genjutsu would be a problem for Hashirama I think; Madara has shown a more direct approach with his attacks, attempting to overwhelm his opponents, whereas Itachi, it could be said, is a deadlier opponent, in that he has more attacks that spell insta-win for him: if he catches Hashirama in a genjutsu, it's over, if he hits him at all with his susano, it's over.

I'm sick of people using the current edo Madara to back up their Hashirama = God arguments, I really am. Yes he is mocking them, but his uber respect/hatred/admiration for Hashirama would likely make him biased anyway. He didn't even know the full extent of their power when he said that as well, as shown when he mocked Tsunade yet recognized her skills later when she released her self-regeneration jutsu. Anyway, feats>Madara's word, and the feats are most certainly against Hashirama here.

Yes, Kabuto did ackowledge him as being the strongest of the kages even in his old age. But then Hiruzen himself stated that he doubted anyone in the village could beat Orochimaru. And assuming he was the strongest kage at the time, so what? It could be said that Itachi is superior to any of those kage as well. If you really think an old Hiruzen>Itachi then I think you need to go back and read the series again, especially given that we still haven't seen everything Itachi has to offer.

Most of that first paragraph is just speculation. Nothing that Itachi has done so far suggested that he was more powerful than Madara as far as I can remember. He outclasses him in brains? I don't know where you pulled that out from, Madara is merely playing with the kages because he doesn't consider them competition. He knows they can't hurt him so he's willing to take hits. That was evident when he almost blew up everyone with his metorite attack.

Best susanoo? That's possible, I can't really disagree with that but as we have seen Itachi can't keep his Susanoo up for long as it causes a massive strain on his chakra. Even a healthy Sasuke at the kage summit couldn't keep Susanoo up for long and as we know Itachi was pretty much blind before his death. Madara has his EMS and has been using Susanoo without showing much strain.

Madara hasn't used genjutsu because he hasn't needed to, both have different fighting styles. Once again you're speculating, for all we know Hashirama can fight against genjutsu. Sasuke fought off Tsukiyomi without the MS and it wore Itachi out far too much to even bother trying again.

2nd paragraph starts of with more speculation. You assume he's biased yet there's no evidence. He recognised Tsunade's skill but didn't seem too impressed by it regardless. It's almost like he's nurturing the kages, he could easily kill them if he wanted too. What's to stop him from calling in another meteor or several meteors.

"It could be said that Itachi is superior to any of those kage as well" Possibly but it's not been said and you're just speculating. Itachi said himself that if he fought against Jirayai he would have drawn and there's no way he could have known about Jirayai's sage mode so this is normal Jirayai. Finally his EMS self and Sasuke aren't doing too great against Sage Kabuto either.

I've read the manga plenty of times lol that was a bit uncalled for. If Itachi does use that Izanagi technique then I'm fairly sure it's a suicide move or has a very high cost.

Back to the thread seeing as we've gotten sidetracked. Hashirama was also said to be able to self heal and create near perfect wood clones that fooled all the kages when Madara used the technique. If Itachi gets fooled it's all over. Hashirama can also change the entire battlefield into his own forest and he move around freely within the forest. Madara also released all those spores into the air which knocked out most of the kage and seems to have drained their stamina. We haven't seen hardly any of the 1st's techniques yet but Madara seems to be dominating all 5 of the kages with what techniques we have seen so far and Madara isn't even fighting seriously. He hasn't looked like he's strained so far at all.

I still say Madara's statements still stand. I think Kishi purposely keeps mentioning how powerful Hashirama is because he want's us to appreciate his strength. If Madara's words aren't enough for you then how about Kabuto's. He stated that there weren't any ninja in the current era who could match up to the 1st. You would assume that included Itachi as well seeing as he is recently deceased and is now back in edo form anyway.

Kakazu is very powerful. I can see this coming down to whoever can kill each other's heart first. Kakazu has only 5 hearts but is pretty powerful whereas Sasori has hundreds of puppet bodies into which he can transfer his heart into.

@FormerCrimsonKing: haha I was just about say that.

As for the perfect defence, that's debatable. He did have the yata shield, but the whole point of the yata shield is that it nullifies all elemental attacks, it doesn't say anything about physical attacks. I would also say that Madara has shown to have the most powerful Susanoo because he would have had longer to perfect it and he had the EMS and yet his Susanoo was completely ripped through by the Raikage and Tsuchikage as well as Tsunade. Mihawk's strength far surpasses any of those guys.

I was also saying Kakuzu would beat Crocodile btw, I may have just worded it wrong although othus12 makes a good point of Crocodile could just dry Kakuzu up before he has a chance. It would be close.

I think team 2 would win this. Deidara vs Hidan would be a win for Deidara I think, Hidan's not shown himself have amazing skills and seems to have one all his battle using his suicide move which wouldn't be effective against Deidara if he goes airborne. Then I think Deidara could just blow Hidan into smithereens.

Kakazu and Sasori are definitely the two heavy weights here though. Personally I think Sasori would take this though. His arsenal is just too impressive, he has 100 puppets which could just overwhelm Kakazu. Then he has the Kazekage puppet which is pretty powerful and all his iron sand is poisoned so if it hits Kakazu once it's potentially all over. His body is a weapon in itself with flamethrowers and cables. Finally Kakazu has only 5 hearts, whenever Sasori's body is destroyed he can just switch his heart to another puppet almost instantaneously. He only lost to Sakura and Chiyo because he was tricked with his parents puppets.

Team 2 should win this I believe. Mihawk's already got the title of the strongest swordsman in the OP world which says lots about the power he possesses. Susanoo would be useless against Mihawk's powerful slashes which have been shown to cut giant glaciers and ships in half with ease. Mihawk also has incredible speed, even Luffy in gear 2 was barely dodging his slashes and Luffy in gear 2 is probably faster than almost everyone in Naruto and with his hawk eyes he has incredible vision and can defend from almost any attack. He was one of the very few people who escaped from Marineford without even a scratch.

Jinbei would have to fight Kisame because Kisame vs Crocodile would just be a complete mismatch. This would actually be quite close but I can imagine Kisame fighting similarly to Hodi Jones who was defeated fairly easily by Jinbei earlier on in the series. It would be close but personally I think Jinbei would win this with his fishman karate.

Crocodile vs Kakuzu would also be quite close I can imagine because Kakuzu can also use water techniques but not as well as Kisame. I think if you take away logia intangibility from Crocodile then he could potentially lose this one.

Overall though I think Mihawk is just too powerful and could probably solo here.

@GIRUGAMESH: So are you saying that Itachi could take EMS Madara who fought Harashima several times to a draw and who has himself stated that Harashima was the greatest shinobi of his generation? If you believe that then fair enough but personally I don't think Itachi was quite as powerful.

Personally I think Madara's statement still stands. I can appreciate that newer generations of shinobi could be more powerful than their predecessors but as we can see Madara is dominating all 5 of the kages at once and he is continuously mocking them saying that ninja are weaker now than they were in his time.

Also I still say that an Elderly Hiruzen was one of the most powerful shinobi ever. Kabuto acknowledged him as still being the strongest out of all the kages at the time.

@sickVisionz: Completely agree with this. Everyone somehow seems to have gotten it into their heads that the 3rd hokage was weak and I really don't understand how. It's been stated and shown that the Edo Tensei techinique doesn't make a ninja any weaker.

I suppose you could say that Orochimaru's Edo Tensei wasn't as good as Kabuto's because it made them into mindless puppets but it still stands that the 3rd hokage in old age fought almost equally against the 1st, 2nd and Orochimaru.

Now Harashima has been stated by, Madara himself, to have been the greatest shinobi of their time. Itachi's very powerful but even Itachi admitted that if he fought Jirayai it would have been to a draw. I don't think there's really much competition here, Harashima would take this.

I know it might be a bit late to say this but never underestimate the 3rd hokage. I still maintain that the 3rd hokage was probably the most powerful ninja in the entire series.

"In fact, he was so powerful that he was admired as theGod of Shinobi (忍の神, Shinobi no Kami) in his prime. Even in his old age, he was said to be the strongest Hokage that Konoha ever had as well as the strongest of all the five Kage at the time of his death.

Edit: OH wow this deleted half my post, stupid website. Basically Harashima wins.

@Haofan123: I agree it's my bad really but we're already into this debate now lol feel free to join in, maybe I can change the thread title or something. It's pretty much a Madara vs Akainu thread anyway so feel free to create one if you want.

Edit: I don't think I can change the thread title.

@Nerx: 1. That's silly. How would they destroy them all?

2. Amaterasu is slow burning, I agree with that but once it's on you there's no getting it off unless you remove the clothing, chop off your limbs or the user decides to inactivate it. It seems to cause great pain when it touches skin and as has been shown before it stomps on other fires.

3. I already referred to the ecosphere statement. Yes they did that but they did it over 3 days. Like I said earlier Madara changed the battlefield in seconds. Also Nagato destroyed Konoha in one move, I'd say that was pretty battlefield changing and I haven't seen anyone in OP other Whitebeard unleash an attack of that caliber. Before you say it took all of the 6 paths to do that attack remember that the 6 paths of Pein are just all his powers split into 6 and Madara is probably able to do a more powerful version of the attack.

4. Gaara said "Is he a god" when he called in the meteorite. Also the rinnegan has the power to revive the dead which is pretty amazing and certainly no such power has been seen in the OP verse. The statement is obviously a hyperbole but it gives indication to his overwhelming powers.

5. Earth, Water whatever. Magma is just like fire in the end and fire is weak against water and earth regardless of the universe. If you have a fire what do you put it out with... water. What happens when magma reaches the sea? It turns to stone.

6. The no haki statement stands because it's the same thread, we shouldn't need to agree to it. I 100% agree that if we give the admirals haki they will win because it lets them react to lightspeed attacks a.k.a Kizaru. It's the same as if we give them logia intangibility they will win. But then someone could say Madara has Genjutusu so he could win. There's a reason I'm not giving either one those powers and that is because it would make the battle unfair.

7. Rather than trying to find flaws in my statements could you please come up with your own.

@Nerx: What do you mean he can mash it with gura 2? Isn't the gura gura no mi Whitebeard's fruit? The whole point of a substitution is it's meant to get mashed so it can cause a distraction. Harshima's substitutions are near perfect, no one could see through them until it was too late. Same should apply for the admirals.

Now you're just underestimating amaterasu. There has never been any showing that I can remember where Amaterasu was defeated. At the end of the day though the real strength of Amaterasu is that it is a directed attack. It burns whatever the user the see, so unless you can escape his eyes you're going to get burned. Yes they don't radiate heat but I still believe that magma vs amaterasu would equal a win for amaterasu.

I don't remember any attack from the admirals cracking marineford, only Whitebeard nearly destroyed Marineford. Yes Akainu and Aokiji transformed the landscape of an island which is very impressive indeed but they did it over a time period of 3 days. Madara completely changed the landscape of the battlefield in seconds when he turned the whole battlefield into a forest, which he effectively controlled at his whim.

Also we haven't yet mentioned that fact that Madara has the rinnegan which grants him near god-like powers. If his powers are anything like Nagato's (which they probably are and possibly better) he can summon monsters by the dozens, can attract or repel anything like when summoned a meteor (Nagato destroyed all of Konoha with one attack), as well as giving him access to all types of chakra. This means he could use earth techniques as well which are obviously magma's natural enemy and knowing Madara he can use them at a really high level.

I think with the exception of Kizaru who could just speed blitz Madara would put up a good fight against the other two admirals and possibly win.

We are still assuming no haki here for the admirals so they can't predict attacks and no logia based defense. They can still transform into their respective states but aren't immune to damage.

@Nerx: The point of substitution jutsus isn't too withstand damage but to create a distraction so the user can launch a surprise attack. He caught Tsunade with it and I don't see why he couldn't kill any of the admirals with it either.

I don't think Amaterasu is as hot as the sun, I'd never say it was because like you said it clearly isn't. However we do know that it can rip right through a fire frog stomach and so far once it hits someone there is no stopping it from killing you unless you remove a limb or the user removes it themselves. As for heat, it pretty much ate right through Sasuke fire jutsu but lets just say Akainu's magma is the same strength as Amaterasu for argument's sake.

Harashima's sleep technique wasn't a genjutsu. I'm fairly sure it released tiny spores into the air which when inhaled causes someone to fall unconscious.

Maybe they could stop his magatama attack, that's debatable.

I think the admirals could probably crack it too but I'm fairly sure it heals itself, it is just a form of chakra shield after all.

I think maybe we could say they're about even then. Madara = Admiral level. Madara has lots of techniques but the Admirals have raw power.

@Nerx: His defence is definitely a weakness but as was seen in the recent chapters he can create almost perfect substitution jutsus. Attack strength wise Amaterasu will most likely be able to defeat Akainu's magma, he can put them all to sleep with Harashima's jutsu, his magatama attack was so powerful it needed both Gaara and the Tsuchikage's best defence to stop it.

I think he has enough skills to avoid being tagged and even if he did I think Susanoo could withstand a couple of blows from the admirals. Attack strength wise the admirals are not quite on the same level as Whitebeard.

Lol got a bit side tracked here.

I think the general consensus here was Whitebeard would win. He certainly seems to be in a league of his own, even within the OP universe.

However I think I would place peak Madara slightly above an admiral, if you take away their haki powers and I think most people could agree with that.

Battle to the death.

Current Temari vs Current Ikki

No genjutsu

100m away at the start

I'd have to give this to the Dovahkiin too. He pretty much single handedly saved all of of Tamriel and in my game fought at least 50 dragons :D. He could also take on entire city guards.

@Newdeath: I remember Trunks saying the 18 and 17 from the present were far more powerful than the 18 and 17 from the future. However I do agree that SSJ Gohan should be able to take this without too much difficulty. Vegeta who had just turned SSJ was able to annihilate 19 without any trouble so there's no reason why Gohan wouldn't be able to either.

Also 19 and 20 were completely shocked when Goku went SSJ and were completely unprepared for his increase in power.

Full Metal Panic was the first anime that got me hooked. Although I'm rewatching Medabots now and it's actually hilarious, I didn't remember it being quite this funny.

This is actually a good battle. I don't think Madara would go down without putting up a good fight but still against 3 admirals it might be too much. Kizaru can move at lightspeed and the only way to really be able to counter him is to be able to move at lightspeed yourself or be very proficient with haki, neither of which Madara is. So Kizaru could technically one shot Madara.

In terms of strength both Aokiji and Akainu were able to completely change the structure and weather of an island with a battle which is no small feat. Kurama was said to be able to destory mountains and cause Tsunamis but as we've seen Tsunamis are pretty much useless against Aokiji.

Finally there's durability. Madara's Susanoo was penetrated by an attack from the Raikage with the Tsuchikage. A powerful attack no doubt but not amazing. Akainu was able to survive an attack from Whitebeard that almost ripped Marineford apart and this was after taking a beating anyway.

Although I will concede that Harashima's cells give Madara a really impressive arsenal and maybe in a 1v1 he could win but I don't see him winning against all 3 admirals. I don't think the Kyuubi will be as a big a factor in this fight as two extra admirals.

Pein takes this imo.