niBBit (Level 11)

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Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » Janemba VS. Hades SS OM Sonata come here!

@peruano99A: Whats wrong with this place? And what do you mean by hardcore debaters? you mean that they are SS fans or something, cus i've been on plenty populair DBZ forums before (being an DBZ fan myself) but even they are sometimes dead wrong. In my experience most people here are pretty open-minded and more relaxed than other forums. Or did is misunderstand you or something :)

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » DBZ Gods run a gauntlet ! ! !

@SpeedForceSpider: Team wins.

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » DBZ Gods run a gauntlet ! ! !

@SpeedForceSpider: I agree this was very fun tread wish more people would join in like Sonata but maybe he will show up eventually. Your right about Toei wanking Goku remember when Base Goku fought the thought form of Mystic Gohan inside of Buu yeah in a real world scenario Mystic Gohan would fart and he would lose an father not that he's around or anything to begin with :). I'm not on you with Vegeta>South but we could go at it again in a diffent tread if you want :) Either way i think the Kai's are not clearing this gauntlet they will make it to round 5 and then they will be defeated, something like this: Put Adult Gohan SSJ2 on the weaker Kai's and it would't take him long to take care of North, West and Kibito Kai, Kibito Kai being possible an high SSJ tier or at best an weak SSJ2, still not enough for Gohan so he would still win, Dabura and SPC could take South, and Goku and Vegeta go up against Grand, now Grand could possible still beat them after a brutal battle (if Grand is somewhere around SSJ3, low/mid tier SSJ3 or even perhaps, he would give them trouble but Goku and Vegeta could hang on long enough for the caverly to arrive and then go a 5 vs 1 and finish Grand Ka, its a random scenario i've thought up maybe you know a bit more effective one but either way i don't see them winning, the Kai's have one possible low/mid tier SSJ3 and one high SSJ2 warrior and thats not enough to clear this you agree?

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » DBZ Gods run a gauntlet ! ! !

@SpeedForceSpider: Its worth mentioning that this is the weakest form of Hirudegarn, easily defeated by Gotenks SSJ3 so yes his power is greater than Vegeta's but not at a ridiculous amount, he got easily! defeated by an Gotenks SSJ3, however Hirudegarn would be the worst example to make as he is an walking PIS machine, beating Gotenks SSJ3 in one hit, butchering Mystic Gohan but loses against Goku SSJ3 who took 4 hard punches in the face and did nothing :S DBZ plothole 158665 :). Again the battle of the Kai's needed to be sped up, hell after the battle was over the episode lasted for like 5 minutes before Kid Buu blew up the Earth so Grand Kai like the other Kai's have very little showings and Grand Kai wasn't even tested he simple got absorbed by Buu, we didn't seen him actual fighting Mega Buu like South did against Kid Buu. Your somewhat right about durability, Vegeta did absorbed a bit more hits than South but the simple fact remains South actually had the strenght to fight with Kid Buu whereas Vegeta absolutly could not do, he did hit Kid Buu (when he was knocked down by Kid Buu's headbutt going all mental and ****) and deliverd 4 punches and that was it. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record :) but yeah Vegeta ofcourse has better durability than South because lack of screentime, how South lost was complete BS with the whole neck kick thing that i explained in my previous post.

Lets say this, if South Kai had recieved 10 more minutes of screentime and ignoring the BS durability, and looking at the battle prior the neck kick and how well he did would you still think Vegeta>South?

In the beginning of the battle he hasen't had a drop of sweat on his forehead, was smiling, and charged Kid Buu head one, he should have far longer durability than what is shown.....aarrrhgg, again think about how stupid that was and so unreal, he did so well against Kid Buu and just one little Neck Kick and his entire body was broken and beaten up, arms/legs and he was bleeding from his head WTF! since when does is happen when you recieve and Kick to the Neck that your arms and legs get destroyed and Face mashed in, you saw how badly injured he was it makes no sense other than the fight needed to be wrapped up, similair in the DBZ movies. In the DBZ movies fighter shown far less durability than in the show because in the show they have longer screentime, think about it, Goku takes hits like an planet from opponents far more powerfull (Frieza before SSJ) than him but after a few kicks from Turles/Slug and he's half dead.

If we exactly take what was shown from the flashback then your right Vegeta should win because of a far greater durability, but i'm calling BS on that and i want to know if South had more screentime thus not suffering from BS durabillity like displayed alot in the movies, would your then still think Vegeta>South? taking into acount what South did shown, Grand Kai including.

I'm still not sure about where to put Grand Kai, its for me hard to imagine to put a character who lifes for only 3 minutes and put him at SSJ3 lvl, but i think its possible. He's either even or weaker than SSJ3 and i don't think he be stronger and if he was it would be minimum but...i don't know yet :) i gotta say i'm having fun debating with you i hope i'm not boring/irritating you with these wall of texts :) I've said before in the OP that this could be difficult because they only life for 1 episode but thats the fun of it :).

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » DBZ Gods run a gauntlet ! ! !

@SpeedForceSpider: No worries :) yep you're right about him being arrogant than Vegeta. In DBZ - 266 Minute of Desperation, you see Vegeta batteling against Kid Buu he did do decent with his energy attacks but when Kid Buu teleported behind him he punched him to the ground, then kicked him in the face, send him flying, then goes underground and is now behind Vegeta and kicks him again and then gives the headbutt and fals to the ground. That shows that Vegeta had more durability than South did, but like i said the fight obivisly needed to resolve quickly in order to go on to the story. You have watched the episode yourself right, its totally B.S that Kid Buu's one neck kick manages to damage South in such a way that his arm/legs where visible battered, and his front face was beaten up and was bleeding from his head...neck kick... wtf. South could impossibly show more durrabilty than Vegeta in his 2 minutes of fame so natuarily Vegeta has better feats. And now that you've seen it it must be clear even to you that he did more damage than Vegeta did against Kid Buu, counter headbutt, arm ripping, trading punches (witch Vegeta could not do, he dished them but could not take them), as Kid Buu was also toying with Vegeta, Kid Buu was streching himself before Vegeta charged him with an energy attack and yet Kid Buu just stood there with a smile and let it hit, then reforms and then the stuff happens what i just explained, but at first you see Kid Buu being pretty serious when up against South, alter ofcourse he's not because he litterly eats one of Souths energy attacks but like i said the fight needed to resolve at that point.

I would also like your opinion about the analogy i made with the energy barrier, and if you think Grand Kai could be around SSJ3, yes could be i'm not saying he is stronger maybe there even, maybe he a little weaker or maybe a little stronger even (doubtfull). Its like i said, in order do do such an feat you need at the very least need to be in the same league as your opponent, does not mean your stronger or that your close no but still its requirs alot of power to do something like that, and if lets say as an *example* you think Grand Supreme as around SSJ2 like SPC or something than that power gap is astronomical compared to Mega Buu, it would be like Krillin trying to do the same against Goku SSJ1 witch we both know Krillin would die if he'd tried.

Also has your view on South Supreme Kai changed? given the examples that i've given you in my new post or do you stand by your dissision? I say: Goku SSJ2/Majin Vegeta>South Supreme Kai>Vegeta SSJ2.

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » DBZ Gods run a gauntlet ! ! !

@SpeedForceSpider: Your right i have misread about PC, SPC sorry. I already explained that Grand Kai could have possible not known about Kid Buu when it was to late otherwise why would they not simple attack Kid Buu all together there chanses would improve by alot rather than fighting him one by one, and also it could be that they did simple did not see him coming like East Supreme Kai overlooking alot of things, he didn't knew about Cell either even Old Kai isn't all knowing so it is possible. I also explained why i think Grand Kai could be around SSJ3 lvl because, he did deflected back Mega Buu's attack with a energy barrier witch you can read here: http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Energy_Shield. As you can see there alot of diffrent barriers but the info is clear that in order do deflect an energy attack from an opponent you should be at the very least be in the same league as the opponent, Mystic Gohan displayed the same skill against Buutenks and altough Buutenks is alot stronger than Mystic Gohan, the power diffrence is not gargantuan, but if Grand Kai is around SSJ2 like you said then that kind of power diffrence is of epic porportions compared to Mega Buu who in fact is a litte stronger than Super Buu, he would simple not be able to do it. Its not just Gohan or Grand Kai, you can clearly see this in the movies to with Turles/Slug/Bojack. Future Gohan did the same thing against the androids, Future Gohan did not do so when he was at base only as an SSJ, he didn't even attempt and was evading the attacks, but then he turned SSJ and BAM he suddenly had a change of heart. That kind of power diffrence is like Goku SSJ is to Krillin, you don't see Krillin try to do something like that.

I also explained in the OP that it is pretty clear that the fight needed to be sped up to advance the story its sounds like a lame exuse but, South did not had any visible damage on him that is fact, he was holding his own against Kid Buu witch is also fact, then suddenly Kid Buu kicks him in the neck and you then see South Supreme Kai being hurt in the arms,legs, and front face...witch is ludicrous. I remember a friend of mine who said that the Supreme Kai's where fighting Kid Buu alot longer than we see in East Supreme Kai's flashbacks but i don't have solid evidence yet to support that i will try to find more if thats true. Also like i also said Kid Buu gave South an headbutt flying at full speed, when Kid Buu fought Vegeta he stretched his leg hitting Vegeta and then reeled himself towards Vegeta and gave him an headbutt and Vegeta was badly hurt, the second time he did it to Vegeta, Vegeta was spewing blood out of his mouth, yet South endured Kid Buu's headbutt and the matter of fact grabed him and gave an headbutt back and no damage was shown from South, no Kid Buu rushed him again and South ripped is arm of, and past al that headbutting he did in fact hurt Kid Buu more than Vegeta did so that makes him more powerfull than Vegeta.

The episode where you can see the match is called: DBZ - 262 End of Earth, so maybe you could do a little search and watch the episode if you need/want to and judge yourself.

EDIT: I've misread again... you did not say Grand Kai was as strong as an SSJ2 sorry about that, i've been playing Skyrim and DotA all day and i'm a bit tired so my reading skills are noobish :)

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » DBZ Gods run a gauntlet ! ! !

@SpeedForceSpider: Well the wiki says and i believe somewhere in other official sources (can't remember) is that an SSJ3 is 4x more powerfull than an SSJ2 its not stated witch SSJ2 ofcourse could be the weak ass Gohan for all we know but seeing how Fat Buu did against Adult Gohan SSJ2 or Dabura its not something way out there. Dabura is most definitly not Perfect Cell's lvl he is alot highter than that. Adult Gohan SSJ2 who is alot weaker than his Teen self (still SSJ2 tho) was not able to beat Dabura, and even Vegeta said: *Alright Goku bring him down i will finish this, Goku: ohw come on he's hanging in there, Vegeta: Dabura is toying with him you know that!* watching the battle between them a second time you see that Gohan was stressing most of the time, trying to keep up with Dabura and he did manged to hurt him alot of times but Darbura himself said to Gohan: *haha i can feel your power slipping its only a matter of time* and considering that he wasn't at 100%, close but still. To me he is an SSJ2 lvl villian but i doubt he beat SPC since SPC seems to me even stronger than Teen Gohan SSJ2, on the list in terms of power i rank them in this order: Goku>Vegeta>SPC>Dabura>Gohan.

Its true that North, West, East and Kibito Kai should not last long, South however is a problem as the way i see it Goku is the only one able to finish him of, remember this is Vegeta SSJ2 not Majin Vegeta who is able to hold of against Goku SSJ2 so Vegeta SSJ2 would lose against South. And if (if) the info is correct and an SSJ3 is around 4 SSJ2 than Grand would be a big problem, again it isn't a far out idea because Dabura lost to Fat Buu in devestating fashion even the mighty Majin Vegeta did not beat him, and Kid Buu/SSJ3>>>>Fat Buu, and Grand Kai should be around SSJ3 weaker/stronger/even, and considering Dabura and Gohan aren't the best SSJ2's around i'd say they dead weight, Gohan also lost to Fat Buu rather easily even worse than Dabura, and like i said South is also not an opponent to ignore.

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » DBZ Gods run a gauntlet ! ! !

@SpeedForceSpider: I agree with you again :) maybe and thats a big maybe Kibito Kai could rival an weaker SSJ2 if not he's definitly high SSJ tier. I'm sorry but what are ASSJ/MSSJ? Its possible that the Kai's win this but after a brutal and devestating battle. Yeah the way i see it and of course this is just a bit of a stretch, Vegeta SSJ2 could handel North, West, Kibito Kai without that much of a trouble, Goku SSJ2 would face South, and Dabura, Gohan, Cell would charge Grand Supreme in witch they possible could lose, after Vegeta finishes of the other Kai's he helps out Goku against South and then focus there attention against Grand who should be weakend, how much i don't know because if Grand Kai is around SSJ3 or slightly lower that could cause alot of trouble as an SSJ3 is roughly 4x stronger than an SSJ2 so he should take Gohan/Dabura/Cell and they aren't the highest SSJ2 lvl's aournd.

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » DBZ Gods run a gauntlet ! ! !

@SpeedForceSpider: Yeah i did some re-thinking (lol) and now i think that Grand Supreme Kai is not around Super Buu's lvl i'm beginning to believe that he would be around SSJ3, weaker/stronger, Super Buu i hink is a bit much and like you said if he was JUST as strong as an SSJ3 he would have found Kid Buu much sooner than letting his fellow Kai's die, but that can also be explained that he probably didn't know about Kid Buu then, because in all honesty East Supreme Kai wasn't all knowing he overlooked alot of things, not saying that the other Kai's are the same but it could be. There was one scene in witch East Supreme Kai was talking to the Grand Supreme Kai that the other Kai's were dead at the hands of this new creature, that could be the time they start beginning to know about Kid Buu otherwise The Grand Supreme Kai would have gather all the Kai's and attacked Kid Buu head on, North, West, East are cannon fodder they are around Goku SSJ lvl when he fought against Cell maybe Perfect Cell (Full Power) at best so they die easy, but South Supreme Kai who is an high SSJ2 lvl could have joined forces with The Grand Supreme Kai and MAYBE have taken out Kid Buu. But otherwise i think your right he at best would be around SSJ3, Super Buu is to much. And yeah Grey Buu was damn powerfull he was literly manhandeling Fat Buu, Grey Buu isn't as strong as Super Buu maybe half of its power maybe a little less so yeah he should be an HIGH SSJ2 tier surpassing Majin Vegeta easily.

Since were talking about the Kai's here what about Kibito Kai's power? East Supreme Kai's power could be around Goku's when he fought Cell maybe Perfect Cell (Full Power), not stronger than that because he was dreading Dabura and Dabura is an SSJ2 lvl villian. Kibito i think is a little weaker than East Suprme Kai because (if i'm correct) he is not a Kai himself and he revers East Supreme Kia as his master so he is a student i think, but when they merge into Kibito Kai could he rival an weak SSJ2 opponent such as lets say Adult Gohan SSJ2 who i believe is weaker than Dabura. Or Kibito Kai is slightly weaker even than Adult Gohan SSJ2 making Kibito Kai an HIGH tier SSJ

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » DBZ Gods run a gauntlet ! ! !

@SpeedForceSpider: No fusion allowed sorry :) what are your thoughts about Grand Supreme Kai, do you agree of the things i said about him on the first page?

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » DBZ Gods run a gauntlet ! ! !

@Sonata: I've updated my second EDIT2 in the OP, i think that Majin Vegeta, Goku SSJ2, South Supreme Kai are pretty much even in terms of power, altough in a battle my vote would be Goku/Majin Vegeta because they have shown more fighting skill and other attacks than South's brief apperance, still i think none of them would walk out of that fight unscratched. And again i'm using the Goku SSJ2 who fought against Majin Vegeta not the one against Kid Buu witch is DBZ Plothole nr # 12645, he stalemates Majin Vegeta who has trouble with Fat Buu who is weaker than Kid Buu but still manages to fight with Kid Buu for 20 minutes :S. I've been searching other boards who include South Supreme Kai but most of them say that he is around SSJ3 lvl because he fought evenly with Kid Buu, witch is B.S because if he was SSJ3 lvl he would not have been defeated and absorbed by Kid Buu, some say he would be even far more powerfull than SSJ2 Goku sitting somewhere between SSJ2 and SSJ3.

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » DBZ Gods run a gauntlet ! ! !

@Sonata: Yes your right. Buu's body isn't exactly the most sturdy. Pretty interesting stuff so far :)

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » DBZ Gods run a gauntlet ! ! !

@Sonata: Agreed Mystic Gohan would beat up even The Grand Kai, heck i would say he could solo them as Grand Supreme Kai could/possible/maybe be around SSJ3 lvl and at best around Super Buu and Mystic Gohan destroyed Super Buu with a smile on his face.

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » DBZ Gods run a gauntlet ! ! !

@Sonata: Goku SSJ2 would murder East West and North Kai, i'm not sure he could do it easily against South but he should win. I'm having trouble with Grand Kai's power, he deflected Mega Buu's attack and chopped him up with one attack. Like i said before, him deflecting Mega Buu's attack does not mean he'd be just as strong as him, like Mystic Gohan did against Buutenks, but its safe to say that your power should be huge to do something like that, and this was Mega Buu where talking about not Super Buu, Mega Buu should be little stronger than Super Buu as both Goku and Vegeta said so themselfs. I'm thinking two things either he is around Goku SSJ3 or he is around Super Buu's lvl maybe a little weaker, i strongly believe he is not stronger than Mega Buu. What do you think?

If Grand Kai is SSJ3 or above then he could probably clear this gauntlet right?

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » DBZ Gods run a gauntlet ! ! !

@Sonata: i've edited my last post if you did not see it. Yep true Goku is stronger than Vegeta SSJ2 thats why indeed he let himself under Babidi's control to close the gap. Anyway sorry for the confusion i've updated the OP, do you still think the Kai's win this?

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » DBZ Gods run a gauntlet ! ! !

@Sonata: My mistake, i should be more clear about the rules: This is Goku SSJ2 in the beginning of the Buu saga thus the one who fought Majin Vegeta and in there fight it was an stalemate. I think that i know what your going to say that Goku was holding back because he wanted to let Vegeto think he could win but, actually Vegeta said: *I've traveled to the Other World, i know all of your SSJ3, you hid it during our battle, you allowed me to think i could beat you!!* it was the SSJ3 that Goku was holding back, and in the End of the Buu saga (wich is not the Goku i mean, sorry about that i will update the rules) he fought Kid Buu in his SSJ2 form wich is totally B.S because, he first was afraid to fight Fat Buu at SSJ2 and could only beat him in his SSJ3 form but now suddenly in his SSJ2 Form he can stand up against Kid Buu who is even stronger than Fat Buu?

EDIT: Even after the episode where Vegeta suicides, Goku explains to Krillin (Who was pushing Goku to fight Fat Buu) that *Vegeta and i where evenly matched, he even gave his life and he still could not beat him, so what chance do i have against him* This his him talking about his SSJ2 battle against Majin Vegeta. Even in there battle Goku claims that there evenly matched (before Vegeta explains that he wanted to put under Babidi's control). I think in the Manga they we talking more about it but don't know that for sure.

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » DBZ Gods run a gauntlet ! ! !

@Sonata: I probably misunderstand you but, first you say that the Kai's would win, but then say that Goku SSJ2 would solo all of the Kai's?

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » DBZ Gods run a gauntlet ! ! !

@GrayWolf2: Yeah i'm starting to think the same, in order to do such an attack you need to be around the same league, Mystic Gohan althou alot weaker than Buutenks still managed to do okey-ish in the beginning of there battle, so if thats true than The Grand Supreme Kai could be stronger/should be stronger than an SSJ3?

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » DBZ Gods run a gauntlet ! ! !

@Sonata: Would putting Vegeta SSJ2 and Goku SSJ2 in the final round make it more interesting, the last round then occupies 5 people who are SSJ2 lvl.

Post by niBBit (663 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Battles » LSSJ Broly vs Nono

Wow after reading up what she can do i'd say she takes this, stoping a moving planet is no easy thing to do.

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