Kurohige (Level 19)

My rampage has only just begun!
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Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Sabo VS Byakuya

@luthluth:

Fujitora is casual island level? Tell me how anyone of the admirals are island level.

I think we have different ideas about how big an island is. I don't mean island level as in Japan or something, I mean small island level. He should be stronger than Luffy who was able to destroy the Noah while injured and under water albeit in a bubble however as shown when he fought the Kraken, even having an extended arm out causing a lot of strain. I'm sure he could do that task much easier outside of water and even more so if we assume he has gotten stronger since that arc. Small island level from simply summoning meteors is not far fetched, it not like unsheathing his sword to drop those things is anything but casual.

Kenpachi could destroy fishman island including Noah in one swing, while not using Kendo or probably hes eyepatch.

Kenpachi is in the top 5 strongest captains right now, possibly top 3. He is leaps and bounds above Byakuya even before the skip. I have no idea why you brought him into this when he and Byakuya are not even comparable.

Yes Aokiji has great freezing potential but he cannot destroy an Island with physical force

Neither can Byakuya, not to mention Fujitora could do the same as Aokiji by dropping a bunch of meteors upon the field.

Sabo is awesome and a badass but Kenpachi could one shot him.

Kenpachi one shots pretty much everyone in One Piece at the moment parring the rumors of Don Chin Jao and Prime Garp/Whitebeard. However, again, I have to question why Kenpachi is suddenly in this fight when he is not comparable to Byakuya in any way, shape, or form. Byakuya hardly has anything that puts him at town level, let alone anything close to Kenpachi.

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Sabo VS Byakuya

@Evertonian4Life: How? Sabo is fighting casual island level characters with ease so far. We have not seen what post training Byakuya can do and what is shown so far is not impressive enough to put him above Sabo.

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Sabo VS Byakuya

@taichokage: He one-shot him after literaly sending in a decoy/replica of himself to make Yama reveal his tactics, ability and tire him out. There were a lot of conditions for the fight that strongly suggest he would not have been able to do that otherwise. As for the battle, Byakuya, one of the mid-lower level captains vs the Revolutionary's right hand man... I don't see how Byakuya has a chance as Sabo would crush him post-training, let alone pre-royal guard.

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Kenpachi & Mount Turtle vs Madara & Obito

@Low: Can it make fatal injuries before Mt. Turtle vaporizes them? The sheer size of it will make it hard to inflict a fatal blow with such a tiny attack, no doubt it can harm the beast but I worry that it will be like stepping on a tack or something, unless he can expand it or something.

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Good Buu vs Midora & Magneto

@DBZ_universe said:

Buu: Can Buu kill them?

Hircule: UES! They hurt Bee.

Buu: WHAT!

*Exploded planet* the end lol

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Just Anime » What if Guy and Rock lee came stumbling into the HTC?

@deadman323 said:

interesting, if gai and rock lee are able to learn ki and train at htc ,they will become uber powerful and no one will able to challenge them not even naruto,juubidara or kaguya can fight them

We don't even know what Kaguya can do yet....

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Giorno Giovanna vs Z

@taichokage: I did actually, I was already typing when GeneralVan posted that, my bad. Still GER should also be above Universal since he acted in a space where time was erased from said universe.

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Giorno Giovanna vs Z

@GeneralVan said:

LHWs act independently as well right? They are outside of time also right? Tenchi's wings always came up when he least expected it.

They act independently in the sense that they automatically protect the user. They are still ultimately under the command of the user in terms of attacking and where to go.

@taichokage said:

The Choisin who have a higher scope of power than Giorno individually, are helpless to Z even combined. I love Giorno but I'm not seeing a win here.

The Chousen could all kill Z easily, the problem was that it would result in everything being destroyed. It was like trying to disarm a nuke in the middle of Time Square while the nuke now has arms and legs and it attacking you and everyone around it. If you're not careful then you blow up everyone, if you do nothing then everyone gets killed. Although I dunno why the Chousen did not simply blow up Z and the universe and then simply re-create it all with a thought. Also, I have no idea how you can love Girono, he was honestly the worst "Jojo" with the worst story and villain in the entire arc, only some of the side characters like Mista and Bucciaratti made the manga somewhat enjoyable. The creativity of the Stands were nice like King Crimson but even Araki himself did not know how his own creation worked half the time.

I did say he is multiversal, but did not mention about him being in multiversal defense or offense.. I meant he can travel different universes and even dimensions, he was also able to manipulate counter actor which is potentially megaversal.. basically, what i'm saying is he can go to higher plane of existence than GER and Giorno, and there he can manipulate their fate..

The Chousen were all individually able to take out Z had they not held back, he can't take on megaversal threats when he himself is only low-end multiversal with the LHW. I don't buy him going to a higher existence when this fight takes place in neutral territory, unless you mean the afterlife or something in which case GER would still work as it negates death itself. Also what do you mean manipulate their fate? I'm pretty sure he did that with Tenchi only due to a few things, I don't feel like watching the whole OVA over again so can you tell me what fate manipulation you're talking about?

I think if it was Zinv, who only has 2 LHWs, then Giorno could potentially win given that 2 Wings = universal.

The problem is that GER does not need to stop the LHW, he just needs to stop Z who is only casual planet level himself. Unless Z unleashes a giant multiversal blast then GER can always stop him.GER also has infinite reaction speed and can stop Z from moving or attacking, the only thing he could not stop would be the activation of the LHW. Hence why I said a draw because Z won't ever hit GER but GER can't kill Z. GER negates the very concept of death, something that Z is proven to be susceptible to. The thing is GER is not deploying some kind of field, it is simply commanding reality and casualty so that and action is 0, it does not negate in the sense that it blocks, it makes it so that it never happened in the first place.

@LHWKnight: Alright, fair enough.

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Giorno Giovanna vs Z

@Whats_out_the_bag: Fixed. Sorry, I was too lazy to upload them regularly.

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Giorno Giovanna vs Z

@LHWKnight:

Aka manipulating the reality of the situation in question so that it never comes to pass, aka a reality warping mental attack. bending reality so that said impulses where never created in the first place

No, reality itself auto-corrects so that the attack never happened. It has nothing to do with a mental manipulation of any kind. He is removing the effect but keeping the cause. As I said you are trying to take away from the author's purpose and remake GER to your understanding, that's not how it works. We even see Diavolo notice that he is in the loop. Death itself is negates and death has no conscience same with time.

Some of your post are repeating itself so I will reply only to the ones I have not answered:

When they ascended to the higher plain, outside the omniverse, when Z caused Tsunami & Washu to appear, no one other than Z & Tenchi could see them. Once outside the verse, only those who are of that plain can see them as the law of the lower dimensions is that beings from a higher dimension can't exist, mean that other than Z & Tenchi, the chousin at that point where not visible.

Yes but you don't mention that back Z and Tenchi are connected to the Chousen directly,Z knew of their existence and had them appear, also they ascend to another plane. Z was on a higher dimension with them. GER is not D4C, it does not exist in another dimension, it is sorta life Giorno's life energy, the form people see is simply a projections of the user, Stands don't necessarily have a form and are not invisible summoned being. Z could obviously see them by going to that plain.

We are talking about dimension crossing not IT. dimension travel is apart of the speed meter. Sound barrier, light barrier, time barrier, dimension barrier or something along those lines.

Show me Z using any kind of instantaneous reaction that match the speed of a LHW's activation. You are using travel speed as reaction/fighting speed. Show me an example of him using this as some sort of instant reaction. We both watched the OVA but I think only one of us remembers such a feat.

Tenchi literally was aim right for Z and as soon as he unleashed his power, it had cause the systematic destruction of all reality as stated by not only the Chousin but the D's that watched over every dimension, so yes Z did take enough power to destroy the verse to the face.

Reality>>>>>>>>>>>>>Universal. and he was still knocked out. A universal attack is not a reality busting one. I will re-watch the scene just for clarification

No it was only one, wing. five wings alone can destroy more than three universe.

He was warping planets out of existence by merely spawning his 5 light hawk wings.

No universes were destroyed from them being spawned, planets were warped but that was it.

Tenchi being send back in time twice, first by being cut in half by LHW, second using six to block an attack from the Chobimaru, which might I add that Tenchi still not being in control of his powers ended up destroying the universe.
also the chousin turning back time, they are using their power of the light hawk wings.

Z needed to make contact in order to do so. Also that was not Z's doing Airi already noted these events:

Airi notes in GXP, that Tenchi has several powers they haven't discovered yet - some examples include his instant teleportation off the planet when Z destroys much of the Earth, his speedy teleportation to Saturn when Z is about to slice him with his Light Hawk Wings, his traveling back in time after being cut in half by Z, (as well as after stopping the Chobimaru from destroying Earth during the new altered timeline), and his ability to keep up with his friend Seina in a foot race despite Seina having drastic body enhancements and going downhill on a bicycle.

There is no time manipulation int he sense you are using. You could argue Z can travel back in time and kill Girono when he is a baby thus getting rid of GER, however this is not an in-verse fight, he would need to travel to a totally different verse to do so, hence why I never brought iy up, here the battle takes place on a planet Earth, it does not say weather it is Tenchi-verse or Jojo-verse.

he is altering Z's reality, and as I said Multiverse. 10 LHW are casual omniversal. Tsunami-fune exist everywhere and nowhere at all times, in the omnivere. Chousin: are a trio of almost infinitely powerful, hyper-dimensional deities responsible for the creation of all existence within 11- or 22-dimensional space.
What speaks for it is that according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, an omniverse apparently has 4 temporal and 3 spatial dimensions, making 7 in total. So, since the Chousin are hyper-dimensional beings, far above the 11 or 22 dimensions (based on the number of Ds), they should probably qualify. They have also been stated outright as the creators of all existence in their fictional reality.

10 LHW are casual universe buster in the sense that universe could not contain them so 10 LHW would make someone omniversal in the sense that each universe is destroyed one by one, but not all of them being obliterated in one shot.

So all of a sudden the Chick that was chocking Tokimi and told her straight to her face that she would let everything die and was trying to hold tenchi so that Z could play with Ryoko & Ryo-ohki, was being mindful of not killing anyone. *MIND BLOWN*

I assumed you meant Tokimi based on this:

GER is trying to alternate the reality of a being on a higher plane, it may not be physical exertion but in a way it is still power wise and mental.

It is not mental not power, it is the very manipulation of causality, GER>Death>Multiversal, the very concept of death, time and the afterlife are negated by GER, no matter how much you want it to be a mental attack it is not.

Damn and here I thought battles with nigh-omnipotent entities were bad. This is a little nuts, it's like that Z vs Battler thread a while back although I just stopped arguing that after I realized that we weren't getting anywhere.

This may have to be a agree to disagree situation as much as I hate it. The only thing is I'm not seeing how Z is gonna get past GER's causality manipulation, he altered he state of being into light o get past Tokimi's field, GER does not deploy a field or anything, it's just reality resets it. It's not like Z is unleashing a giant multiversal wave that one-shots them all, Giorno can still negate Z himself, and it's not a mental assault but a reality altering one. Z himself must come close to Girno and make contact, GER is faster ans would stop him from ever moving, the concept of distance and movement would be negated, if Z launches the wings at him or stretch them GER is still faster and can simply negate distance and instantly move. hence why I say it's a draw, neither side can do anything here. GER is above death itself, altering different reaalities and constantly creating new deaths and beginnings.

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Giorno Giovanna vs Z

@LHWKnight:

Erasing actions? actions are functions of the body, meaning that by erasing the actions, you are stopping body movement. and all actions are controlled by the brain sending impulses and receiving impulse. this mean that anything trying to erase those actions are still a form of mental attack since you are trying to stop the impulse of the brain.

Nope, you are trying to change the way GER works; it is not mentally stopping the opponent at all, reality is simply being manipulated to where the action never took place hence why the erasure of time and death are negated.

you are talking about effecting his history, how can he do that without stopping the LHW's
you can't effect the time of a being that exists outside of the time plane that you are effecting.

Because he is not harming Z by stopping his actions, why would the LHW react?

staying completely normal in made in heaven which is only universal isn't impressive at all compared.

The arrow fell out of Gold Experience at the end, Girono had no idea what happened nor the limits of his ability. He simply kept the arrow in safe keeping. Araki originally intended Girono to appear in part 6 but wrote him out because with his ability he would have stopped Pucci and stopped him from the universal reset thus stopping part 7 or 8 form being made. Made In Heaven also created multiple universes as Emporio was int he new one while part 7 and 8 took place in another alternate timeline.

LHW are able to protect the mental & physical aspects of the being.

I know, I stated that and watched the OVA, the problem is GER and it's ability is neither of those things.

Tokimi: That's enough Z, no more...
Z: Are you sayin' that it's useless, That's my line!
Tokimi: You would convert into optical light to penetrate my body? How foolish, Do you realize what materializing from degraded light would do?
But, you can't stop me with your power in the lower dimension! You'd wind up destroying the world if you did.
What Tokimi was worried about was the eradication of the universe, not Z, who would in fact still live but would have been weak and unable to do anything due to the damage that he did to his own body by forcefully converting himself from the light of his own powers.

Her being worried about the universe being destroyed does not mean Z would have not been taken out, it just means her priority was protecting the universe over beating Z, Tokimi even stated that Z can't harm her, he is still susceptible to universal damage. And again it does not matter since that is not what GER is doing.

okay so now all of a sudden Z can't see GER... excuse me, Z is walking with the creators of an omniverse and you are saying that he wouldn't be able to see a stand that isn't even on Tokimi's level?

The Chousen allowed themselves to be seen as shown when they were talking to Tenchi and the rest of the cast. There is nothing to show they were trying to hide themselves or something and that Z could see them anyway. Everyone was talking to them.

Also Tenchi only need one wing to stop a black hole, while the other wings were used to protect to girls from being killed. also you realized that Z only went after him by flying do to the fact that Tokimi was in the vicinity. all he would have had to do in order to get to tenchi instantly is dimension travel, which in fact is instant teleportation.

And yet with the power you are hyping Tenchi should have only needed one wing to protect himself and the girls, the process still required 3 wings to stop all the damage. Teleportation is not infinite speed nor instantaneous movement, it's like arguing that Goku is faster than GER because he has IT. GER has infinite speed and reaction. The activation of the LHW are instant but not Z himself, he is not on equal speed of the LHW. It has been quite known that Z is MFTL, not instantaneous. Teleportation is not comparable with instant reactions.

Tenchi intentionally unleashed his powers to kill Z, which was shown when Tenchi glared at him and unleashed all of it.
Tenchi's power was able to destroy all of reality if Tokimi had not released her sister's powers so that they could all work to contain that power, which his future self told him that no one could stop.

Tenchi got angry and unleashed his power, he still could not control it. Z was not hit with a reality busting attack, that is just silly to think so.

Also remember when he erased a portion of the moon, by nothing more than just moving his hand? also LHW can reduce the time to absolute so instead of needing to hit GER, he can make it exist inside it's cosmic body, therefore killing it.

Cool, casual moonbusting was something that mid-tier Dragonball characters could replicate. Nothing GER can't easily stop. Z himself only demonstrated casual planet busting. All 5 LHW being unleashed at once destroyed multiple planets.

Show me LHW manipulating time.

Ultimate hax is LHW sense the scale of power is greater than GER can with his. The most the entire verse can hold is up to 10 LHW, however it only takes three to create merge and destroy 3 universes, which is more than GER can even manage.

You act like GER is nulifying the LHW, he is just altering reality and stopping Z actions from becoming true. Z having universal LHW does not stop him. I have only seen it merge the universes, where did it destroy them? 10 LHW are casual universal.

also considering the fact that Z manipulated a counter-force to the goddesses power supports the fact that something on a universal scale is not going to stop him.

Said Goddess was mindful not to harm anyone. GER is not exerting any kind of force to stop Z, it's simply reality stopping his movements.

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Giorno Giovanna vs Z

@Haiken said:

@Kurohige: I go with Z here.. seeing that he is a multiversal entity (not by DC but by where he has been), he should be able to bend the laws of a single universe.. He created his own dimension outside the reach of the Choushin where there he monitored Tenchi and the others, and also played with their fate.. I don't see anything stopping him from going to a higher dimension and play with Gio..

Z is not a multiverse buster or multiversal defense, he needs universal for 2 wings and he has 5 so something above low universal will do. He can monitor Giorno but not GER which is independent just like Silver Chariot Requiem or Notorious B.I.G. His actions would also be negated before he could leave. Z is more effective in person. why would he leave the dimension when it would be more effective to use his LHW? His durability should only be around universal+ not that it matters against GER's ability.

@taichokage said:

GER does everything Kurohige said it does. But the LHW's are pretty much the same thing as GER but I go with Z because of his higher level. He's multiversal while Giorno has only shown universal.

The Chousen stated that 10 LHW existing would destroy the universe, the LHW are>>>>Z, Z himself only has 5. It took all 3 Chousen to keep Tenchi, who's power was above Z to keep from shattering the multiverse. Z is not even universal without LHW.

@othus12 said:

the scope of the LHW is still greater and has been used against more powerful opponents.

The opponents being more powerful mean nothing given what the LHW are. They could be used by a 10 year old kid and still easily fend out planetary threats. The true LHW are the life force energy of the Chousen so naturally regardless of who you are if they hit you then you're done for. The problem here is that they will never hit as Z's actions and will are set to 0. LHW can delete matter and energy itself from existence, GER uses none of those as his ability as Stands are not energy or matter, nor are the effects of GER.

@LHWKnight said:

@Kurohige: considering that all entities higher than the third dimension don't exist in the first place according to the laws of the third dimension, and yet Z is still above the D3 in power.

Z exist outside every dimension, not just the 4th, in fact he exist in a separate dimension not within the Chousin's range, which is the dimension he was in when spying on Tenchi and the girls.

also Z can be anywhere in the universe at any given moment and manipulate the laws of the lower dimension, meaning that fourth dimension time & space. Speed is really a non issue here.

Also Z said that the only way for Tokimi to stop him was to destroy the universe, well that is indeed false because what was said in japanese was this that she couldn't stop him without destroying the universe, it does not say she would kill him, and this is supported by the fact that in order to completely stop Z Tenchi had to practically destory all of reality and every dimension and it is also supported by the fact that Z wasn't completely erased by Tenchi's powers going wild even though he was hit point blank with the full force, knocking him unconscious, which allowed Tokimi to start again with him.

Therefore Z is Multi-universal and a universal entities power would only be a minor annoyance at best. so while yes you would usually be correct that similar abilities would cancel each other out, the big deciding factor is the scope of the ability.

GER is only universal in scope while Z himself is easily Multiversal in scope.

Let me give you another example of this so you can better understand it. Z's five LHW vs Zinv's three. ability wise they are exactly the same, however unlike Zinv, Z has two more wings and can work on a broader scale.

The speed argument alone is debunked as he was seen traveling to Earth, he did not arrive in a mere instant, Z never demonstrated that kind of ability otherwise he would have had an easier time blitzing Tenchi. Z is only MFTL, he does not have infinite speed or reaction like GER, only the activation of the LHW can be considered instant. GER is faster than Z, Z has automatic shield but it wont help since there is nothing to shield against, there is no attack happening.

Also with Tokimi Z himself stated that the attack to destroy the universe would indeed stop him, and Tenchi's power was simply going out of control, that was not a means to beat Z. Even if such an attack can't kill him it is enough to render him into a state on which he can't fight. it doesn't matter anyway since GER is not going to harm Z, there is nothing to suggest that he will be able to prevent his actions from being negated. The LHW require contact to work, GER does not make contact, nor does it deploy some sort of field to use it's ability. It just happens. GER is not energy nor matter, Z will also be unaware of GER and it's ability. He wont even know what he is fighting or defending against, he will only see and experience Girono.

The other problem is that those feats are displays of durability, GER's ability ignores that as it is not an attack, also it can negate things without them coming into contact with him. Z taking universal level attacks don't mean anything since he has not shown resistance to this kind of reality warping on that scale. Z himself has only demonstrated casual planet level ability without LHW and even needed ships to fight before he got them. LHWs function by converting damage into harmless energy as word of god states however things like psionic attacks, GER etc are harder to judge. If something is Multiversal then any attack be it phasing or not bypasses the LHW regardless. Phasing won't work an LHW as it cuts pseudo dimension and 3 LHWs allowed Tenchi to survive a black hole. There is nothing to prove it defends against causality manipulation like GER, which rewrites history so that anything that is “too fast” gets trumped before it happens.

Two LHW can be overwhelmed by attacks stronger than a universe buster. Even with 5 eventually the LHW would fail at some point.

Gold Experience Requiem,stops the attack from ever happening, can completely disable the opponent body, mind, and will, and can send them spiraling off into an infinite death loop.

Ultimate hax > Ultimate speed and destructive capacity which is what LHW are. GER is not doing anything destruction therefore the LHW are not able to nulify it, it's matter manipulation, energy.

At the end of the day Z can't defend against his actions be negated, GER can't kill or harm Z but the LHW only protect him from matter and mental manipulation. Tenchi needed 3 LHW to escape something like gravity. GER easily negated universal time erasure. It's a draw because neither can do anything to each other. The only thing Z has that matters are LHW but Z needs to use them, GER is faster and can stop his actions or will. GER in independent, killing Girono does nothing anyway. Both the LHW and GER are instant, but Z is not instant. GER will continue to disable all of his movements. The very concept time and DEATH ITSELF are negated eternally by GER. It's a draw.

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Giorno Giovanna vs Z

@LHWKnight: Too bad that does not help your case, you are forgetting that killing Giorno wont do anything to GER who acts independently of it's user, much like how Silver Chariot Requiem can as well. How does any of the things you mentioned mean he can prevent having his actions reduced to 0? I never argued that GER could kill Z, I'm saying Z wont be able to hit GER. Z did not beat any Chousen, he only resisted for a bit, phasing through the goddess does not help much, was their any indication of he reality warping to stop him? GER does not need to stand against the creators since Z's feat was nothing practical, they were not even actively trying to kill him, only halt him. Not sure how the wings would react to GER since all it's stats are marked as "None", Z can't mindrape a Stand and doing that to Giorno wont do a thing to GER.

Yes he can exist in the 4th dimension, however it is still a plane of existence, GER literally moved where time simply did not exist, the very concept was erased and he moved just fine. Z being able to exist on a higher dimension does not put his speed on the same level of GER as he was moving where time was erased, not just another dimension.

Show me Z using demonstrating any form of infinite speed.

Power means nothing when you can't use it, LHW protect the user from damage, something GER is not doing, it is only negating an actions, LHW are not reality warping in the sense that Z can imagine himself bypassing the negating effects. GER may not be able to survive a hit from the LHW but it wont matter since Z will never hit him with it. GER negated the future as Diavolo has epitaph allowing his to perfectly predict the future, GER still negating the effects. Also about his snapping his fingers, anything that is not the LHW gets negated easily. To escape a black hole Tenchi needed to get rid of the gravity, there is nothing to prove Z can get rid of something that does not really exist, GER simply stops Z himself from performing the actions by turning it to the zero point. There are not really any feats of Z defending against attacks like that.

GER nullifies ANYTHING so it has 0 effect. That's the exact same thing LHWs do. Only difference is Z himself is only a galaxy level being. The only other thing LHW defend against is mind manipulation according to Tokimi. Also its not that Tokimi could not stop Z, its just that If Tokimi had directly tried to stop Z from getting to Tenchi, the result would've been the immediate destruction of the universe.It was also said that the power to destroy the universe was required to stop Z, GER is low end universal.

Hence why I said they'd stalemate and quit if anything. Z can't tag GER can GER can't kill or harm Z.

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Giorno Giovanna vs Z

@LHWKnight said:

Um yeah Z is MFTL + and has 5 LHW. one touch is all it takes to win. Z is a Multiversal entity.

GER is still faster as it has infinite speed and can exist outside of time, he can make anything 0 with will alone meaning he can make Z's speed 0 as well. GER can also negate anything Z does, people forget while he may not be able to negate the LHW he can negate Z actually using them or negate his attack and place him in a constant loop of doing the same move over and over. He can kill Giorno in one hit but that problem is he will never get the hit in as GER erases the effect but keeps the cause. His evolved and ridiculously more powerful stand that has it's own independent will. It's able to react automatically to threats even when time is erased and sets all attacks and the opponents willpower back to zero, and can trap a person into facing a series of death over and over again for eternity. It can basically manipulate time, space, reality, and death/life of its victims. He is also able to ignore causality and operates out of reality and is able to create alternate timelines or even realities. It also has automatic(Infinite) reaction time.

@othus12: @taichokage: @flashback180:

“Nullification of Action and Effect: Gold Experience Requiem’s ability is to turn anything, including his opponent’s attack and willpower, back to the state of “zero”. Hence, it is near invincible, as all “supposed” actions created by an opponent would have been reset (back to point zero). If the opponent is killed by the stand itself, then they will also continuously experience death, as they will die but repeatedly return to point “zero”. It is mentioned by Giorno himself that he is unsure of the exact workings and limits of Requiem’s powers. Requiem also appears to have a consciousness of its own that is unknown to Giorno.

In other words, Requiem has the opposite effect of King Crimson; while King Crimson erases the “cause” while keeping the “effect” (i.e time where a bullet would hit him is erased, causing the bullet to warp past him), Requiem keeps the “cause” but erases the “effect”, thus causing endless scenarios where actions and initiatives are started, but the effects of such does not occur (i.e Diavolo’s incomplete cycles of deaths, upon dying by Requiem’s Blazing Fists, he would then experience the knife of a heroin addict, an autopsy gone wrong, being hit by a car, and so on for eternity.)

GER does note need to even make contact, as he can simply set Z's will to even fight to 0 or his breathing, ect. He may not be able to do anything to the LHW but they need a wielder; GER is independent of Girono, keep in mind that Z could not see GER anyway as even beings from the afterlife cannot see or interact with Stands. With the LHW it isn't reality warping. Chousin exist outside of space/time and reality. They actually reside outside of the Multiverse. Reality means nothing to the LHW. They effectively nullify all forces used against them and be used for both offense and defense. In effect there's no stopping a LHW unless you have LHW yourself. It's already shown that whatever target is struck is destroyed in its entirety. When Kagato was killed by Tenchi, the Ship itself was destroyed was well because it was connected to Kagato (it's where most of Kagato's power came from).

LHW multiply all things by a factor of zero. Meaning regardless of the force or strength of any kind of assault or defense, it's reduced to nothing and effectively nullified in its entirety. You could throw the Big Bang at them and it wouldn't do anything.

However GER is defensive and simply prevents the attacker from doing anything, resetting before it acts. Lastly the Light Hawk Wings will block any attack, from any dimension, under most circumstances. Two Light Hawk Wings squaring off would apparently be futile, however Z has the ability to sacrifice his own LHWs to cancel out Tenchi's.

LHW does have some weaknesses in that it can only focus on either offense or defense not borh at the same time for tree ships at least. Also LHW like Dispel Bound can be overcome with enough power though in this case it required enough energy to bust a universe to overcome Z's two LHW. The problem is, Z is not going to be aware of GER nor it's abilities so he wont know weather to go for offense or defense, if he charges at GER he is reset and loops before the LHW make contact which they need to do in order to work. Tenchi escaped a black hole by multiplying the gravity by zero but he was aware of those properties and gravity is all around us, with GER how doesZ protect against his actions being reset, he wont even know. Not to mention GER can prevent Z from making more LHW by erasing his will to make more or prevent the actions. The LHW still have to make contact and they do protect the user from harm but GER is simply preventing Z from ever reaching his action, there is nothing for the LHW to "protect" his from. They are said to work outside the laws of the universe, and are capable of violating the laws of physics. It doesn't mean a LHW user can just warp reality any way he/she so wishes, what it means is that the LHWs simply do not let the natural laws of physics get in the way of their intended function something that does not apply to GER.

if anything the fight is a draw: GER sets back the LHW who then negate GER which get then set back by GER... endless circle, unless my above argument is valid in which case GER negates Z's actions of negates his will to fight.

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Which Naruto characters can defeat Raditz?

@othus12 said:

Remember when Trunks cut Freiza in half? That was a planet busting slash; if Freiza had dodged that and Trunks hit the floor then the planet would have been cut in two

not really. the potency attacks have no DC properties at all. just like when vegeta sends a barrage of ki blasts and some touch the ground. if there were no potency the earth would explode.

@Dream said:

Piccolo's blast was obviously a heavily concentrated moon-level city buster.

The problem with considering Roshi's moon-busting feat legit is that many of the Dragon Ball feats around that point either resort to toonforcing, are nowhere up to that scale in potential destructive scope in comparison (prominent superhuman characters were only at least building-busting at 21st Budokai level with Roshi's destruction of Mount Fry Pan making him at best a probable city-buster with the attack) and the series being quite inconsistent with its feats and storytelling. Are you suddenly going to make characters like Namu, General Blue and Ninja Murasaki moon-level just because of that feat when they never showed that level of destructive capability within Dragon Ball and claim "because it's attack potency"?

Guys that post was full of sarcasm, I was just making fun of the silly arguments for DBZ's inconsistencies XD however you guys did bring up really good points I never thought about and can use against the other fanboys,

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Which Naruto characters can defeat Raditz?

@LHWKnight said:

@Kurohige: where did you get that from, that makes absolutely no sense, or else more of their attack if messed would have caused the planet to explode. like say a stray energy beam.

I want you to go back and read my post, only this time I want you to notice the strong sarcasm that I posted with. It wasn't a serious post at all.

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Saitama vs Toriko

@othus12:

saitama is also the most hyped thing on his verse. i dont see how that's a counter argument. in fact the entire rest of his verse seems fodder when compared to him.

Except Saitama is not hyped, he was flat out shown to be the strongest hero at the very beginning of the story and proved so in chapter 1 onward. I'm not sure what is particularly hyped about him, I mean he has not said something like "I hope I have a chance to use THAT technique, the one capable of harming God himself!" or anything like that. It's more accurate to say Saitama is the most powerful in his universe. Not at all like the situation with Toriko.

i was putting examples of how this is a common issue in fiction.

DBZ's a bad example since it has a lot of variable within it's own realm that it is really hard to compare it to other fictions. A better example would be the tailed beast in Naruto but even though they are all multi-mountain busters with casual attacks they are still hidden in humans or have attitudes that cause them to stay hidden (3 tailed beast hid underwater). There were not 9 colossal monsters just roaming around at once and not destroying anything, except the 9 tails which we saw nearly destroy the village.

i agree man, however the truth is a level 100 would never beat a lvl 200. you dont think in toriko about busting, you think about fighting capabilities. you go for hax and yeah some have raw power but most have some sort of hax like what we saw with the Hiru heel and its blood drain and the tonyuudou with his illusions.

I know, I even said a beast of a higher rank would win against a lower rank, however it does not mean it outclasses the beast in every way, for example it's like saying Mount Turtle can fly faster than a Five-tailed Giant Eagle; a level 2 capture beast.Even though Mount Turtle could likely roar and kill the thing, that does not mean it's gonna be beating it in a flying contest. That is also why I don't think all beast higher than level 70 are as durable as Mount Turtle either, a beast that specialized in defense. Again this does not apply for everything as the legendary beast are of course stronger and more durable otherwise Zebra would have been able to one-shot them as well, however as I said that is not the case for all of them.

the lasers came from the back of his neck. its a point blank man. and the sattelite was further away than the moon is to earth.

The guy who fired the laser was able to easily outspeed the attack he fired, Saitama was so vastly superior to him in speed that he was fighting his afterimage nearly the whole time. Even if it was a bit further away than the moon the attack still reached within a few seconds, the guy blitzed the attack and Saitama blitzed him. You have to be at least 10x faster than something to blitz, Genos blitzed the laser and Saitama blitzed him.

go watch the starjun fight. toriko does have precog so the moment he realizes saitama is a monster he is going full power. toriko has never held back. besides saitama seems to love taking hits.

Yes and in typical Toriko fashion he would likely launch his kugi punch or fork and knife.His stronger attacks takes lots of time and appetite energy, someone of Saitama's speed wont let him do. I never suggested Toriko would hold back, I am just stating the techniques he normally uses. It's like saying that because Goku can read a power level he starts out with spirit bomb, or Naruto can sense a huge amount of chakara so he uses a tailed beast bomb, or Luffy uses his precog and starts out with Elephant Gatling. They use different techniques more commanly depending on the situation. Again, would a weaker attack like that work on a man who has no fear like Saitama?

idk what you are talking about. what statement?

My mistake I read your comment wrong.

cmon man, that's just ridiculous. i think you may love saitama a bit too much.

He's not even in my top 10 favorite characters or manga and I just starting reading his manga like 2 weeks ago... How is using direct story meaning I love Saitama? Arguing in favor of a character does not mean I an attached to him.

. at least let him be above multi continent before you put him on infinite levels. idk...you seem to put him on moon level yet he never destroyed the moon...did i miss something? even when he got sent to the moon he only left a small crater on the ground so what the heck is going on?

In the original manga:

Saitama's Limiter already broke and it is stated multiple times, that he trained a year and a half more. He already reached infinity. to further explain this The 8th S-class hero find his creator and nemesis, the head of "House of evolution". He ask him why he stopped to make devil plots.

The mad scientist said then than all his fighters were destroyed by an intruder who were the goal of his researchs. He explains than all creatures have a maximum potential which can not be surpassed, a limiter. But this limiter has been broken by a normal, maybe even under-average, guy : Saitama. Since Saitama get ride of his limiter, we can say he doesn't have a maximum which means his power is limitless.

The difference between Saitama and Garou was, that Garou was just breaking his Limiter, he was still no match.

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Saitama vs Toriko

@othus12:

you sure reply tons man. im pretty sure you can sumarize such huge text.

For Pete's sake, it's not like I made a wall of text; I gave detailed arguments to both you and Taichokage. Of course it's gonna be longer than a paragraph. I make my post detailed so I don't have to go over every little thing in the argument in a bunch of separate post. I'm sure the homework you had assigned to you in 5th grade made you read more than anything I ever posted.

actually its alredy hinted at star levels.

One beast is hinted at that, and it's arguably the most hyped thing in the series so far; the demon king, a majority of the characters are hinted planet level. Unless you are talking about the quote "Go on and take a bite our of the stars" which is not really an outliner for anything, it's just like the line "Aim for the stars". One of the main character's dream is planet level feat. But I digress, as a whole you cna argue they are hinted at star level in you take the fairy tail into account.

so its believable for DBZ to have over 10 multi planet busters in earth yet is not believable for toriko to have continental monsters? seems legit.

Where did I mention DBZ anywhere in my argument? DBZ in an entirely different debate in itself and not at all like my example with Toriko.

ts all about potency man. of course the abilities of monsters are very different. a level 400 would never lose against a lvl 100. mansam himself said capture levels were spot on. and to tackle a 100 you need to have country level capabilities.

Not all the time considering some capture levels are based upon ability and how dangerous they are rather than raw power. That's why I don't think that capture level alone is enough, as I said we have hundreds of supposed continental rampaging beast running around that part of the land is still intact. I'm not denying that a level 500 beast is stronger than a level 100, however I don't think they can just all be considered as durable as Mount Turtle or as lethal of poisons as another weaker beast, they usually have something else going for them.

now you are just overhyping. the name has nothing to do really with actual speed.
its quite proven he is not. there is a timer on his best attack against garou remember?

That's not what hype is... hype would imply that there was never a feat to give int he first place or I was simply speculating based off of a random statement. We see a guy named lightspeed Flash who is stunned at how easily Saitama dodged him and thinks to himself that he actually managed to dodged a light speed attack. You are going by that calc that showed his slashes get timed and only put him at MHS I believe. So yes you are right in that regard, however you are also forgetting that he:

1. He effortlessly dodges a laser that in theory should be light speed and I don't mean he predicted the laser coming and dodged like Batman does with bullets, he watched the laser come to him and then dodged it at the last second when he felt like it (we see this in slow mo). he out ran a guy who out ran a beam attack ( that he fired)

2. He effortlessly dodges attacks from Lightspeed Flash then gone even faster and still he wasn't as fast as the current villain Garou who then powered up even further and then Garou still wasn't as fast as Saitama.

also

he just did on a recent chapter. he used it against a "fodder" monster on the 400's. like i said: toriko's mindfuck is just a watered down version of his full Conduct of the King. it is implied he can bring to reality any image he sets up as ultimate routine.

You're not hearing me; if he is fighting against an opponent that is his physical equal or superior I don't see him just starting out with that, if a fork or knife does nothing to him why would he go into such a casually attack? Also would that work on someone like Saitama? Would he be able to intimidate someone like him? Due to Saitama's power, he has simply never known what fear was. Garou's power completely useless against someone who had nothing to fear.

its not. its around 5-6 times ours.

My point still stands in tandem to that argument.

Ficasdaltonphant was just walking on the sole scene it appeared, NVM attacks. seriously trying to put levels on the 2000's at country level is ridiculous. we have monsters on the 100's at such level.

Right....that seems like a bit of a stretch you're making, I mean the character made a direct statement about the creature but now you're saying that he was talking about a specific part of the creature?

stop the underhype.

Yeah I'm underhyping because I don't think Toriko casually beats a guy who flies into the moon at relativistic speed just fine and punches a hole through it as well. Nor do I believe that a bunch of fodder monsters are planet level+ based on a level and many things that imply the contrary. I get Toriko is awesome and all and I agree, the guy is a serious powerhouse and no doubt the strongest of the current HST. However a majority of your arguments come from levels and hype rather than feats. In addition Saitama strength can be whatever it needs to be, it is limitless. Saitama's Limiter already broke and it is stated multiple times, that he trained a year and a half more. He already reached infinity. to further explain this The 8th S-class hero find his creator and nemesis, the head of "House of evolution". He ask him why he stopped to make devil plots.

The mad scientist said then than all his fighters were destroyed by an intruder who were the goal of his researchs. He explains than all creatures have a maximum potential wich can not be surpassed, a limiter. But this limiter has been broken by a normal, maybe even under-average, guy : Saitama. Since Saitama get ride of his limiter, we can say he doesn't have a maximum which means his power is limitless.

The difference between Saitama and Garou was, that Garou was just breaking his Limiter, he was still no match.

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Saitama vs Toriko

@taichokage said:

I did say that I think Toriko could lose in the near future. At this particular moment though, Saitama only tops him in durability feats at least based off the new manga which is not the same as the old.

That was not my point; people are saying Toriko may lose but only for a little bit then he powers up again or some nonsense. I mean going by the hype people want to throw around Toriko's universe is aiming at planetary characters and that's about it while OPM is going far beyond that, going by the type on manga the two are I don't see how Toriko surpasses the guy, every feat up until now with Saitama have been casual while we are using Toriko's very best feats. I don't see where people are getting that Toriko will surpass Saitama. Saitama appears to be physically superior to the guy who knocked him to the moon and I have yet to see Toriko demonstrate that kind of power.

Toriko gets wind of Saitama's power, CoK, done. At least until he gets more feats. Again don't think I'm unreasonable. I honestly think Saitama will surpass Toriko albeit not for very long.

How does he get wind of his power? He would need to experience it first. I don't see Toriko taking more than a few blows before going down.

@othus12:

like what? jumping back to the planet? seriously though we dont even know the timeframe for saitama to reach the moon. at tops its sub relativistic and pre time skip mid tiers like coco and gaoh were perfoming movements at that speed. needless to say toriko tagged gaoh.

Assuming Saitama reaches the Earth from the moon by flying at even greater speeds then yes, keep in mind his reactions should be much faster. Again these are pretty much casual feats for Saitama.

Also Saitama was casually dodging and blocking attacks from Lightspeed Flash, who as his name implies, is light speed

i disagree. conduct of the king has been used both on weak and powerful opponents, in fact its quite a gamebreaker against an evenly matched opponent. its just that right now the sole image is so powerful there is no need to bring it to reality against weaker foes, hence the mindfuck.

I never doubted he would use it, I just don't think he would do it so casually, as you said it was a gamebreaker, if Saitama is much stronger than a guy who knocked him into the moon and blew a hole through it then I don't see Toriko surviving long enough to use his said gamebreaker. With Physical attacks Toriko is not hurting a guy who was shoved into the moon at relativistic speeds.

I also don't agree with capture levels as a way to confirm a monster's power: "If every monster that was 130 or above could destroy an entire continent then the world would be destroyed, there are hundreds of thousands of monsters in the gourmet world 100+ (most of them berserk monsters prone to destruction), in fact pretty much every single one of them is way above that level and there are monsters in the 1000+ range as well, do you think those guys are casual planet busters? I mean talk about over rating.

I feel like people don't quite understand how big a continent or how big a country is and just throw out these wow words. The planet in Toriko is only 3.3x bigger than our planet, one guy that can destroy an entire continent with ease even a small one like austrailia would be able to make short work of the planet after a few attacks, not even the Ficasdaltonphant who was at 2650 capture level and was stepping on a guy who could step on mountains would I consider continent busting level, maybe small country and I mean like a state sized country like Colorado sized and he would have to be packing serious fire power besides his massive size."

I see Saitama winning this 8/10 times.

Post by Kurohige (3,679 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Battles » Saitama vs Toriko

The overestimation of Toriko is crazy; I mean a feat that puts Saitama above Toriko or shows he can hurt him is played off with "Well Toriko will get better soon anyways" or "Toriko will get X power-up soon!" When One Punch Man is not even at the halfway point yet. What makes you think Saitama wont eventually fight an incredibly hax opponent to further demonstrate his power? Just give Saitama credit where credit is due. Hell, if Saitmaan demonstrated a FTL feat next chapter Toriko has no chance. Hax is th only way I see Toriko winning this fight and mindfuck is doubtful since Toriko wont really that so casually again a physically superior foe. You also said that "if raw power doesn't cut it" that is assuming Toriko survives long enough to come to that realization unless he just starts out with it. I will wait for the next chapter but I see a lot of downplaying and overestimating, just about any feat that places Saitama above or on par with Toriko is brushed off with "Well Toriko will get better" instead of "Okay he loses for now".

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