GIRUGAMESH (Level 7)

@DBZ_universe said:

Why was this bumped?

Because of butthurt Supernatural fans.

@tronboy said:

@GIRUGAMESH said:

From what I know of Supernatural's heavy hitters, they are powerful but not at the level of higher DBZ characters.

Having super speed and "roasting the earth" isn't that big a deal in the face of someone who can beat planet-busters with little effort.

I would have thought it would be fairer if we were using saiyan saga Goku, or failing that Goku when he first arrived on Namek. Anything after that and this is a stomp from what I've seen of Supernatural.

You must not know Michael and Lucifer because they have nigh Omnipotence which means they could pretty much do anything to you unless your an angel archangel death or god and plus there completely immortal the only thing that can kill them is a Angels blade

Nigh Omnipotients example: castiel an angel once told a preacher to choke on his own tongue.

Herp served with extra derp. When have their powers ever affected a being on Goku's level in that way?

While we're at it, Glory from Buffy the Vampire Slayer could beat Goku, since only a magical weapon can defeat her.

@One_Piece_God said:

Where are people obtaining these ridiculous Naruto speed calcs from? Please do not tell me its from OBD. There is nothing that suggest that Hashirama & Madara can match the Bleach characters speed.

There appears to have been a severe influx of stupidity on the site recently.

@bigz007 said:

@GIRUGAMESH said:

@bigz007 said:

Can Naruto team see Bleach team?

Of course, this should be assumed in virtually every case.

Why should this be assumed? In Naruto manga it's stated that they can't see shinigamies.

They may be able to touch them but they still can't see them.

Oh terrific, let's make their opponents and their attacks invisible, I'm sure we'll be in for a fair fight then. Yes, it should be assumed.

@ChromeDisaster said:

I just thought about this. Seeing as how they said Gotei 13 and not captains of Gotei 13, that would mean that they would have to beat every soul reaper in soul society. The two of them doing that is HIGHLY improbable. Hell Kira and his shikai could deal with them lol

Pretty much. It would be the whole of SS minus the royal guards and the king himself vs Hashi and Madara.

I don't see how Wargreymon could hope to keep up with him, and Luffy's attacks are easily capable of causing major damage to him.

Luffy wins without much trouble.

Sasuke wins easily. IMO even this Sasuke>Yamato>Hidan.

Honestly, what to stop him from just cutting through Hidan's scythe with a chidori-infused sword?

Combustion man can send off a blast faster than Kimblee can touch the ground, plus he can spam, unlike Kimblee, and he is considerably more durable. With sozin's comet he'll be firing off attacks that not only outnumber Kimblee's but dwarf them in power.

CM wins with or without the comet.

@taichokage said:

Near the top for sure, but the strongest I'm not sure. Bleach has Aizen and Juha. Aizen the immortal, nuke spamming, absolute hypnotist and what not, then there's Juha, the strongest Quincy and likely the strongest character in Bleach after the Spirit King, and he took Yamamoto's bankai as well. Then in One Piece, the likes of Blackbeard or Kizaru are up there as well. But I am very impressed with the two legendary Shinobi.

Agreed.

@5th said:

@taichokage: Naruto characters IMO have great reaction speed but don't compare to other characters in speed, a good example would be: Itachi, Madara, Hashirama, and Minato.

Albeit Minato might compare to high tiers in speed because of his FTG and "Oh most" flawless reactions.

But yes, Aizen with his released Zanpakuto could possibly beat both Madara and Hashirama

A serious Kizaru could beat either of the two

Or Blackbeard with Whitebeard's devil fruit could too.

But those fights are debatable.

Interesting. Personally I still rate them as some of the best the HST has to offer (the Rikudo sennin likely being the single best, based on hype and scaling).

@Galenbeta said:

You all forget that team bleach has superior speed . Kido and jutsu would just cancel each other out. Anyway because of that they also have a zanpukto advantage

That's one point. Being outnumbered against people faster than you who can fly with a range of abilities is never fun.

@bigz007 said:

Can Naruto team see Bleach team?

Of course, this should be assumed in virtually every case.

@taichokage said:

They would get stomped by the Gotei. If you include past and present there are HST top tiers in the Gotei as well.

This.

@5th said:

I do indeed believe either of the two on Team Naruto could solo this match.

Well that's more understandable than Phantomrant's post.

@ChromeDisaster said:

I'll give it to team naruto only because we don't know the full extent of the captains' power yet. And no those two will not stomp the gotei. Yamma could out one of them alone. And even if they somehow manage to beat Yamma, the gotei still has more than enough to beat just the two of them

This.

@GeneralVan said:

Piccolo Daimao can beat Akainu...

Master Roshi's turtle can beat Akainu.

@phantomrant said:

@GIRUGAMESH said:

Apparently you can't see reason. I know that Barragan is arrogant, but to erase a random pipe behind him? You must be joking.

And for the reasons stated, no, Stark does not win. Keep riding that train if you want, it's not going anywhere.

I don't understand why you're so against the idea that Baraggan can control his power at will. What's not making sense to me is why you seem to be so concerned about Baraggan aging away his surroundings. He's simply showing his aging power and that pipe was part of his surrounding. There's no meaning behind it. It's completely simplistic.

A "OH NOES I DUNT THINK SO" isn't going to cut it, Girugamesh, we both know that.

Believe it if you want.

And is that second part you referring to Stark losing? If so, apparently you must have skipped the last 3 pages.

@phantomrant said:

@GIRUGAMESH said:

1. No, I mean why would he choose to erase random things around him, e.g. the building he was on? Why does he erase the pipes next to him? There is far more to suggest that it's automatic. Try to accept logic, you're beating this topic to death.

2. NO, they are not, see above. So he turned the field on just to erode some random pipe next to him? Surely you realise how absurd that sounds?

1. To show off his power. It's the only reason why he released. After all, he could have easily stomped Soifon and Omaeda in base, aye?

2. It's not nonsense at all if you analyze Baraggan's character.

Btw, this doesn't change my opinion on how the battle goes. Starrk wins whether the field is automatic or not. I'm just asking for confirmation for future battles where it may make a difference.

Apparently you can't see reason. I know that Barragan is arrogant, but to erase a random pipe behind him? You must be joking.

And for the reasons stated, no, Stark does not win. Keep riding that train if you want, it's not going anywhere.

@phantomrant said:

@GIRUGAMESH said:

1) Why would he choose to do that, in every single case?

2) The background is shown to erode when he is moving in some of the images, go and re-read the chapters.

3) I know that wikias aren't a supreme authority, but it does state that, in describing his ability, that his presence alone decays things.

1. Umm.... because he doesn't have a convenient field around him that's automatically on all the time?

2. There is no distinction between an automatic field or a reflexive field when it comes to that. An automatic field could have eroded it. Or he could have just turned the field on and eroded it. Both are of equal possibility.

1. No, I mean why would he choose to erase random things around him, e.g. the building he was on? Why does he erase the pipes next to him? There is far more to suggest that it's automatic. Try to accept logic, you're beating this topic to death.

2. NO, they are not, see above. So he turned the field on just to erode some random pipe next to him? Surely you realise how absurd that sounds?

@xlab3000 said:

Starrk

Sorry, you're a little late to the party old chap, it's pretty much over.

@321zigzag1 said:

@GIRUGAMESH said:

Accusing me of using the no limits fallacy suggested that I thought that Barragan's power could erase anything, which is why I was annoyed (since Stark really isn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of things).

Fair enough, I accept that some things take longer to erase than others, but the fact remains that they will still be erased.

Sorry, go and check the manga, I really cannot be bothered to go get more scans to prove something that I know to be true. It's the chapter where Stark has released his wolves against the 2 vizards, and they claim that the wolves are the manifestations of ceros. Stark corrects them, saying that they are not ceros, as ceros would not be able to inflict fatal injuries against opponents as tough as them.

And no, it's not a stalemate, as I have said. Stark will not be able to evade Barragan forever, as with a casual respira he was able to tag Soi Fon, who has been implied throughout the series to be one of the fastest (if not the fastest) captains. Again, as I have noted, the 2 vizards were keeping up with Stark ok even before they pulled out their masks. He's fast, sure, but he's not in some completely different league of speed.

If anyone still wants to discuss this, have fun, I really cannot be bothered to go over something like this, especially when it has been considered before.

You had the right to be annoyed although. No one likes being accused regardless of being true or false. But that is my mistake if you weren't invoking fallacy. Your opinion on Starrk. I see now a bit more why you said things for you did.

Of course.

Unless someone has a history of rejecting the obvious or etc there is no reason to just brush it off. But you are probably ust getting tired of doing so which is understandable.

You be surprised how people treat Starrk's speed. There are those who its fast as teleportation (relative in truth) to that being powerscaled to SHunsui. Its a bit of a A>B>C logic in speed. VIzards did keep up when Starrk wasn't serious. When he got serious he literally surprised them with speed with a vanish. Your statement also relies on Soifon's shunpo. Here is the thing though not everyone treats her the fastest either. Even I am skeptical on that to a bit.

Repetition is common in these types of things. I have been frustrated by having to repeat myself but I have committed the same errors before.

Out of respect, I will give you a reply.

How is their speed A>B>C? We know that Soi Fon was trying to avoid that respira as much as she could- and she failed. I don't care, and you shouldn't, how she tried to, what matters is that her best efforts failed.

And by the way, go and re-read the chapters. Stark was noted to be moving slower after Barragan's defeat, however, when he was motivated again by lilynette the vizards could still keep up (and again, this was before even using their masks).

@ChromeDisaster said:

@GIRUGAMESH: I apologize. I was quite upset, (not for obvious reasons) and i severely underestimated Barragans power. I wasn't intentionally wanking, I was just overconfident in the abilities of Starkk. Also, I forgot that Barragans ability allows him to manipulate time to a certain extent. I concede.

Cool man, no worries, there was just a couple of things you seemed to be arguing that made little sense. I may have overreacted too, apologies if I came across as aggressive.

@phantomrant said:

lolwut? Either of Team Naruto effortlessly murderstomps. You should have just put them against the entire Gotei 13.

Well someone's hyping Hashirama and Madara a bit much, the gotei 13 would crush them.

@supernova7005 said:

@taichokage said:

But remember that Baraggan dilates time as well. If his respira can't age a blast quickly enough, he can halt it giving him more than enough time to avoid it. That's what he did the first time Soifon used her bankai on him and it had no effect. The only reason it didn't work the second time was because Hacchi put 5 massive barriers around him so he had nowhere to go. Even then he tanked it albeit with damage. Starrk has no such way to confine Baraggan so he could avoid Starrk's attacks endlessly.

Thats because Soifon's bankai is a single hit while Stark fires ceros in thousands using cero metralletta. Barragan has never shown the ability to age these many projectiles at once.

Stark can even confine him using his wolf pack

The wolves need to be close range, therefore they're worthless against Barragan. Ceros will be either erased or will do little against Barragan.

@phantomrant said:

@GIRUGAMESH said:

It's automatic. Anything that comes close to him is aged and disintegrated, as shown by the building that was erased by his very presence.

But how that show it's automatic? He could have simply turned his time field back to age his surroundings, aye?

1) Why would he choose to do that, in every single case?

2) The background is shown to erode when he is moving in some of the images, go and re-read the chapters.

3) I know that wikias aren't a supreme authority, but it does state that, in describing his ability, that his presence alone decays things.

@321zigzag1 said:

@GIRUGAMESH said:

HAHAHA. Ahem. Sorry, but you're getting way ahead of yourself. I am not going anywhere close to it. If I said he could erase an attack from SSJG Goku? Of course. If it was a full power attack from the Juubi? Yes. But Stark? Well, unless you want to suggest that his ceros are way beyond Soi Fon's bankai (they're not, by the way, going by everything that has been suggested), yes, they will be erased too.

...go back and watch the fight, he erased the barriers just fine. Don't forget, he was toying with them the whole time. As soon as got pissed the barriers were like nothing to him, just as he is pissed with Stark in this fight. Besides, Stark's ceros have been shown to be a widespread fire, not concentrated into a single spot. If you can show me a scan suggesting otherwise then great, but until then, Stark's ceros get erased just like everything else. Barragan has never shown to tire using the ability, he could release it again and again. Stark would not be able to continuously repel his attacks forever.

Stark himself noted that his ceros wouldn't even be able to inflict fatal injuries on the people he was fighting (the 2 vizards and Shunsui). And yet the kido vizored, who was on the same level as them, was stunned that anyone could survive Soi Fon's bankai (it was even noted to have damaged his best barrier):

Soi Fon's bankai is clearly much stronger than Stark's ceros, and yet Barragan didn't even take it seriously. The only reason he was hit at all the second time around is because he totally underestimated them and was too busy laughing his ass off at their efforts. The thing is, you are applying Barragan when he was toying with them to an angry Barragan. When he was pissed, his power was tearing through kidos.

Barragan not giving two craps:

And Barragan giving several craps:

The vizored had to don his mask just for his barrier to give any delay at all.

THe way you described it made it sound like it was an instant snap that's why I said "no limits fallacy" You made it sound like that single wave was enough, pardon me if I misunderstood but the way you argued it, made it sound like that.

Where did Stark say that?

So then there is a good chance to be a stalemate if we go by what you said as long Sarrk just keeps fleeing about.

Your VIzard statement still lends credibility what I said, respire ages things very quickly but it will take a bit longer or even more depending on the matter encounters.

Accusing me of using the no limits fallacy suggested that I thought that Barragan's power could erase anything, which is why I was annoyed (since Stark really isn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of things).

Fair enough, I accept that some things take longer to erase than others, but the fact remains that they will still be erased.

Sorry, go and check the manga, I really cannot be bothered to go get more scans to prove something that I know to be true. It's the chapter where Stark has released his wolves against the 2 vizards, and they claim that the wolves are the manifestations of ceros. Stark corrects them, saying that they are not ceros, as ceros would not be able to inflict fatal injuries against opponents as tough as them.

And no, it's not a stalemate, as I have said. Stark will not be able to evade Barragan forever, as with a casual respira he was able to tag Soi Fon, who has been implied throughout the series to be one of the fastest (if not the fastest) captains. Again, as I have noted, the 2 vizards were keeping up with Stark ok even before they pulled out their masks. He's fast, sure, but he's not in some completely different league of speed.

If anyone still wants to discuss this, have fun, I really cannot be bothered to go over something like this, especially when it has been considered before.

@phantomrant said:

Something comes to mind. Is Baraggan's TDF reflexive or automatic? Meaning does he dilate time around him according or his will and thus be able to turn it off at any time or is it really like a field that surrounds him and it always stays up?

It's automatic. Anything that comes close to him is aged and disintegrated, as shown by the building that was erased by his very presence.

So if you were wondering, Stark can't really snipe him, and even if he did, his ceros would do little.

@phantomrant said:

@GIRUGAMESH said:

That's my point, he'll accelerate the detonation so that it goes off miles away from him (it might even catch Naruto and Sasuke if he's quick enough, though that's unlikely). A bijuudama will do little damage (if any) if it gets hits by a respira a fair way off and then some of the explosion gets nullified by his auto-decay.

You're assuming the starting distance to be that huge?

@nishi99

Mind specifying starting distance, then OP?

If Barragan was going straight for the kill, he wins. All in character, I say it could go either way.

It's impossible for Baraggan to win even if he's bloodlusted. You're already assuming the distance to be significant. There's nothing stopping both a Naruto to spam TBBs. All he has to do is close the distance. It's not like Respira will even tag Naruto. Baraggan is at a significant disadvantage regardless of distance because the TBBs will continously close the distance until the explosion hits him (and even a little bit of that explosion will kill him seeing as JR blew off half of his face and he was really pissy about it). And it's not like Respira's AoE is infinite. It's likely that once Respira is in sufficient range to age away an incoming TBB, Baraggan himself will be in range of the TBB that he'll get pulverized by the blast radius.

Respira won't tag Naruto? So you're suggesting that Naruto's current speed is considerably above Bleach captain-level?

A little bit of that explosion will kill him? Bull. He tanked JR at point-blank, with Soi Fon and the kido vizored questioning how it was even possible that he survived. Sure it would damage him, but it's not as if he's going to just be destroyed if he gets caught on the edge of the explosion. Plus I think you are overestimating Naruto's ability to spam TBBs, he's never shown that capability.

As I said before, if Naruto did charge a bijuudama or two using the prep time, then Barragan would be too arrogant to do anything about it and would likely go down. If Sasuke plants an amaterasu in Barragan's eye socket, then the team wins. But if he doesn't use that time, or if they don't use that strategy, then there's not much that they could do once Barragan starts letting off wide-scale respiras, especially since they're in the village (less room for movement).

@supernova7005 said:

Naruto stomps, Sasuke gets destroyed

Naruto isn't stomping anyone, and Sasuke may actually be useful here.

@321zigzag1 said:

@GIRUGAMESH said:

@321zigzag1 said:

Does the wolves have to bite to explode?

Its not farfetched that incredible number of ceros would soak up respire.

Actually, yes it is. There was apparently no limit to it, and Barragan's respiras would go through them.

You are approaching no limits fallacy. If its that powerful he should have aged away the barriers with ease as well. But it did not.

He should have been able to age the explosion with ease inside the field. But it did not. He has to keep spewing respire for that to occur.

I will say it again.

Respira dissipates when it comes in contact with matter, (not sure how that affects air), Ceros can slow it down and Starrk only needs to slow down a portion enough for his size.

Its spam vs a stationary guy spewing out.

Respira doesn't go on forever, it will dissipate the more matter it makes contact for it to age away.

Its not like an everlasting wave.

HAHAHA. Ahem. Sorry, but you're getting way ahead of yourself. I am not going anywhere close to it. If I said he could erase an attack from SSJG Goku? Of course. If it was a full power attack from the Juubi? Yes. But Stark? Well, unless you want to suggest that his ceros are way beyond Soi Fon's bankai (they're not, by the way, going by everything that has been suggested), yes, they will be erased too.

...go back and watch the fight, he erased the barriers just fine. Don't forget, he was toying with them the whole time. As soon as got pissed the barriers were like nothing to him, just as he is pissed with Stark in this fight. Besides, Stark's ceros have been shown to be a widespread fire, not concentrated into a single spot. If you can show me a scan suggesting otherwise then great, but until then, Stark's ceros get erased just like everything else. Barragan has never shown to tire using the ability, he could release it again and again. Stark would not be able to continuously repel his attacks forever.

Stark himself noted that his ceros wouldn't even be able to inflict fatal injuries on the people he was fighting (the 2 vizards and Shunsui). And yet the kido vizored, who was on the same level as them, was stunned that anyone could survive Soi Fon's bankai (it was even noted to have damaged his best barrier):

Soi Fon's bankai is clearly much stronger than Stark's ceros, and yet Barragan didn't even take it seriously. The only reason he was hit at all the second time around is because he totally underestimated them and was too busy laughing his ass off at their efforts. The thing is, you are applying Barragan when he was toying with them to an angry Barragan. When he was pissed, his power was tearing through kidos.

Barragan not giving two craps:

And Barragan giving several craps:

The vizored had to don his mask just for his barrier to give any delay at all.

@ChromeDisaster said:

@GIRUGAMESH: Are you kidding me? Show me a scan and or clip of Barragan aging a cero or any type of energy attack for that matter. Theoretics hold no weight here and you know it. From your logic, Barragan should have been able to just make the entire battlefield disappear just by being there, or, like 321zigzag1 said, he should have been able to age the kido barriers from the beginning. Barragan is not reaching Starkk with Respira. End of discussion. Soi Fan is fast, but by your logic, just because people with abilities similar to and or greater than hers could keep up with Starkk, Barragan can catch him with respira? No.No.No. What's keeping Starkk from sniping Barragan from a distance? Remember, the only reason Soi Fan was caught with respira is because she is a close combat specialist and she had to close in on her opponent to deal damage until she used her bankai. Im not doubting Barragans ability, but respira is being overrated. Besides, you must be forgetting that every time a wolf is defeated, it is replaced by 2 more. Barragan just can't win when he just causes many more problems for himself. It's going to be a never ending battle the more he destroys the wolves.

Does a cero last forever? No? There's your answer. Respira would age it as easily as it did kido or just about anything else. Fact: anything that does not last forever can be erased by Barragan.

And what on earth are you talking about? You're going off on a rant that makes no sense. Erase the whole battlefield? If he wanted to with respira, sure, but there's not much point to it. And I never suggested that his auto field extends for miles.

End of discussion? Cease your wanking, you have proved nothing with your statements. Were you pissed when you wrote that or something? Barragan was aging the kido barriers, look back over the chapters.

'No.No.No'? Ok...get back to me when you have something to back yourself up with, because my argument still stands.

If person A is as fast or nearly as fast as person B and they get hit with a casual attack, then there is a decent chance that person B would get hit if attacked by loads of serious attacks.

Your reasoning is flawed again, Soi Fon didn't rush in when she got tagged, she was flying away as fast as she could- and still got tagged. Respira speed>Soi Fon speed, this is fact. The fact that you make so many clear errors prevents me from taking your argument seriously.

And again, the wolves are not just being hit or destroyed, they are being aged. And honestly, if Barragan was bloodlusted then he wouldn't give a damn about the wolves, he'd just fire off bombardments of respiras against Stark. You can try to downplay respira all you want, Stark is not getting through. And even if he did land a bunch of ceros, so what? If lots of them weren't even strong enough to even deliver fatal wounds to those vizoreds, then how the hell are they supposed to put down Barragan?

As ever, Barragan wins. The wolves need to get close range to even do anything (have fun with that Stark), the ceros would still be erased (and according to Stark's own statement, would barely even affect Barragan even if they did hit) and the respiras from a pissed Barragan would tag Stark before long.

@taichokage said:

But remember that Baraggan dilates time as well. If his respira can't age a blast quickly enough, he can halt it giving him more than enough time to avoid it. That's what he did the first time Soifon used her bankai on him and it had no effect. The only reason it didn't work the second time was because Hacchi put 5 massive barriers around him so he had nowhere to go. Even then he tanked it albeit with damage. Starrk has no such way to confine Baraggan so he could avoid Starrk's attacks endlessly.

Correct.

@phantomrant said:

@GIRUGAMESH said:

Though Aizen owning Barragan the way he did was PIS as far as I'm concerned, unless Barragan actually chose to turn off his decay field so he could sit on his throne without it decaying.

Or Baraggan simply didn't have his time hax abilities since it was before he became an Arrancar (if you're referring to the first time he met Aizen).

That's possible actually, fair enough.

@321zigzag1 said:

Does the wolves have to bite to explode?

Its not farfetched that incredible number of ceros would soak up respire.

Actually, yes it is. There was apparently no limit to it, and Barragan's respiras would go through them.

@Ikki_Minami_: Still Barragan for me to, and once he realises that hitting Stark might be difficult he'll get pissed and I don't see that ending well for Stark.

@ChromeDisaster: I know, I know, that is what I meant :S

And you must be joking, I do not exaggerate when I say that Barragan could have won against the enemies Stark was facing without much trouble, Shunsui included (unless his bankai gave him some sort of teleporting powers). If Stark and Barragan had swapped enemies then they both would have survived, the shinigami lucked out.

Apparently you don't fully understand Barragan's power, anything that comes close to him is disintegrated, he doesn't need to trigger it or consciously use it. Stark could fire ceros at every angle at him and it would still do squat. I know his wolves are powerful but even they wouldn't be enough, especially in this since Barragan is bloodlusted and could release a widespread respira.

As for hitting Stark, I've already said why he'd be able to tag him, but I'll state it again. It reasons that if a casual Barragan could tag Soi Fon, one of the fastest captains, with a normal respira, then repeated, larger respiras (the kind he released when he got pissed that they damaged him) would be enough to tag him before too long. Stark is damn fast, but he isn't much faster than the likes of Soi Fon (since those vizards were able to keep up with him just fine).

@321zigzag1 said:

It was his respira that tagged in released form not his pure speed.

I know, sorry if it seemed like I was suggesting something else. If a casual respira could tag Soi Fon (who is implied to be one of the fastest captains), then IMO loads of larger respiras from a pissed Barragan could eventually tag Stark.