Maybe DT Kuwabara would have been a better match then, like I originally thought. I still think Elle would put up a good fight against Dark Tournament Yusuke with speed equalized, if it's a melee fight she has a good chance of winning.
I'm pretty sure she used Sword before and that's apart of (Shadow Skill) Eigi, and that can be both close and ranged. Or was that just in the OVA...
Either way, it was a pretty freaking huge rock that was big to enough to crush the town and she altered it's course with a single blow along with taking a large chunk of it off. That's some impressive force right there.
Yusuke does have his range attacks but doesn't Elle has some too? I remember that Shadow Skill (Eigi) has some energy blade attacks for range, and Kyougi does too.
That's why I said speed was equalized. Anyway, I agree with SpeedForceSpider. Scenario 1, Elle can/might win after a good fight. In scenario 2, not so much.
Also, remember, that in the 1998 anime Elle kicked a large chunk out of a meteor in episode twenty-five.
Well, Nate didn't so much "stop" the planetoid as break it to pieces which resulted in significant damage across the globe due to thousands of meteorite impacts.
Either way, Nate was able to exert the amount of power necessary to meet it head-on and shatter it. That wasn't even Nate at his strongest, either. That was Pre-Shaman Nate I believe.
However we do and we know he did it and the means by which he could it was only via a Ki blast of enormous power. As for how SANs sent the planet back, you can say it was because of his 4D tech or his own power. Incidentally, there's no difference between the two. Consider one of Clarke's three laws; "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". That's basically what the Nobility's science was and SANs' exceeds that by venturing into the 4th-Dimension.
Yeah, I seriously doubt Broly is that powerful; going from visible and quantifiable feats he's a powerful planet-buster but that's it. Unless you want to suggest that Broly is a Skyfather-level being, which is beyond silly.
The sacred ancestor's planetoid stopping feat is still something that's almost impossible to use because the specifics behind it are never revealed. Other than speculations on how it went down and happened, it could be anything. A spell, telekinesis, etc. We don't even know if the sacred ancestor could even use it in a fight, has he by the way? However, I'm fine with you using it because of how powerful Nate himself is. It would make for a better match.
However that's the thing. a "Country Buster" in the 4th-Dimension could be a galaxy-wiping event in the 3rd-Dimension. And the context of a Laser may not even apply to 4th-dimensional physics. Pi can equal a tasty snack as far as the 4th-Dimension is concerned and it can be Correct.
How can we know that though? We need actual feats, not wild guesses, before we go around saying that it's that powerful. You have to take it at face value. If it destroys a country, then it's a country-buster and it's as simple as that.
As far as the VHD-verse has been concerned, nothing can hurt him save "D". And SANs has only scarcely made an appearance in the series itself. Most of what anyone has on him is stories and lore as told by the Nobility or Left Hand. Far as I can remember no one has ever directly called him "Dracula". Everyone, including Humans and the Nobility, have all ever referred to SANs as the Sacred Ancestor, The Great One or 'Him'. He is never referred to by name.
You say nothing can hurt the sacred ancestor sort of D, but we have to go by actual displays of power over in-story claims if we want an accurate idea on who wins this. Does the sacred ancestor have an actual defense against all of Nate's numerous abilities?
You sure they never referred to the sacred ancestor as Dracula? I'm pretty sure that's it's generally accepted that he is Dracula, or something.
Valcua kept people a million people alive via tubes and chemicals extending from the 4th-Dimension so no one else could access it, and it kept the minds of his victims clear, never allowing for madness, making them feel their despair clearly with a clear mind and unable to die.
That's interesting, but how does that help the sacred ancestor in this match? As I've said before unless the 4th-dimension has feats of keeping individuals like Nate (people who can teleport into other universes and dimensions) out then I don't see how Nate can't reach it.
Well, then it's hard to quantify if we don't how the sacred ancestor did it. For instance, Broly from the DBZ movies was said to have destroyed a galaxy but we never actually see him do it or know how he did. It would be impossible to use that as a feat.
However, I'll assume that the sacred ancestor can exert such force somehow to avoid any arguments. That, and to make this match more interesting. After all, Nate can stop planetoids as well as evidenced by his moon feat. He only becomes more powerful Post-Shaman and is heavily implied to be capable of destroying the entire planet. A six-thousand mile diameter, that would make the planetoid the sacred ancestor stopped smaller than the earth but significantly bigger than the moon. To give you a sense of scale, earth has a diameter of around 7,926 miles in comparison to its six-thousand mile diameter.
As for the 4-D technology, it sounds impressive but we have to go by feats here. We can't assume 4-D equals an auto-victory, that would be a fallacy. If for instance a laser works by 3-dimensional laws and is powerful enough to destroy a star, over a laser that work by 4-dimensional laws and can only destroy a country or a continent, it would be best to go with the weapon with the superior feats (the laser that can destroy stars). It would be the logical thing to do.
Now, as for trying to stop SANs from using his abilities...no. You're talking about a 10thousand+ year old being regarded as a deity, whose presence can be felt globally, who can effect multiple realms at once (ie, creating a domain inside "D's" subconscious that affected Physical Reality), who (like "D") can access the very deepest layers of consciousness, the deepest of which scant few ever know to even exist called the Mystic Layer. Basically, in a Mental battle, there's no winning over SANs.
You're underestimating Nate's own mental prowess, he has been shown to affect minds in other realities/universes and can outright shut a person's mind down with telepathy or seal their abilities, and he can contend with Xavier (the same Xavier that can influence and affect billions of minds) in that area--even out matching him. Nate's psionic out-lash can also be felt across the world and even in the astral plane, crippling powerful psychics like Jean Grey and Charles Xavier; as evidenced by the the feats provided by CerberusPrime3K. That was before Shaman as well, and Nate grows even more powerful Post-Shaman. Nate's best feat for range, was when he fixed a person's broken psyche by connecting their mind to their alternate selves in other realities/universes. Here are some links for that feat: (Link 1) (Link 2) (Link 3) (Link 4) (Link 5) (Link 6) (Link 7)
Any actual feats for this 4-D dimension stuff? If you're going to compare it to the 5-D imps from DC, it better have some dang good ones. Otherwise, it's just some other plane of existence like the astral realm. I would also like the specifics on this instance that Dracula stopped another planet from hitting the earth. How did he do that exactly? Was it telekinesis, some sort of spell, or did he use some sort of technology? If you could quote the text, for instance. It's a rather vague feat, at the moment.
I'm with Nate on this. The only problem I foresee is that spell that erases people. Nate could probably stop the sacred ancestor from using that spell with his telepathy like he stopped Magneto from using his powers (Link) or Post-Shaman Nate could avoid it by entering the planck length. Nate also has precognition/clairvoyance as well, and Post-Shaman Nate stated that he has three hundred different variations of it (Link 1) (Link 2) (Link 3) (Link 4). It would give Nate a good idea of what the sacred ancestor is capable of. That also shows Nate entering the planck length which seems to stop time, or something similar, and his fight with Ares in it seems to have altered history. It's described as stepping outside of time. Nate could do that, and then go to town on Dracula with his vast array of psionic abilities.
That's not something Nate does all the time. What he Did do was pull Xavier's Astral Body from the Astral Plane and into the Physical Plane, just to show he could. That's not what SANs did. He was still in the Physical world but as a mass of Consciousness. He didn't enter the Astral Plane.
As far as TP goes, those things are fairly common. Psylocke killed Dark Xavier with a TK bubble in the brain and made him stroke out causing brain death. The Crystal Lifeform in VHD can drive millions of people insane in a milisecond. Killing is easy. Feck a sorceress in the 1st Novel made illusions so terrifying they literally killed people with Fear. As I've already said, SANs has done things that affect multiple realms, such as that mental domain he created in "D's" subconscious. And, as noted, SANs can operate with things on a 4-D level, which means there's really not much Nate can do.
Either way, Dracula's a mass of consciousness, and Nate has given thoughts form before. He's given Maddie's thoughts form in the other example I showed you and that wasn't in the astral realm. He also brought people back to life, and created new bodies for them with his power. He probably could force Dracula into a physical form.
That 4-D stuff doesn't really tell me much. Is his body or consciousness in another dimension or universe, is that what you mean? If so, Nate can easily reach him. After all, he can teleport into other universes and connect another person's mind to their alternate selves (LINK 1) (LINK 2).
That millions of minds thing doesn't sound nearly as impressive as Xavier's feat of weaponizing the billions of Skrull thoughts and feelings in his attempt to psychically assault Galactus.
No. Xavier can Mind Control billions of people and something he had to consciously focus on. Heck, Thanos pulled a bigger Mindwhammy on Galactus, and Thanos doesn't have the range of TP That Xavier does, just a stronger Mind and Will.
And I never said anything about SANs' aura, so where are you pulling that from? And Xavier wasn't moving around as a mass of consciousness, he was using his Astral Body, a projection of his mental self. When SANs moves as a mass of consciousness it appears as a Mass of Black Clouds covering a large area. People, things, etc, Die as a side effect of his presence passing over them because their minds are crushed under the weight of his consciousness. It's not an attack. It's just something that happens.
It's something that effects the mind, either way, correct? Nate would be able to defend against it then. He can also forcibly give something that is immaterial a physical form through the use of his psionics. He did this with Xavier when he plucked his astral form from the astral plane (LINK), and can even give thoughts a physical form by accident (LINK). If you're saying that Dracula can transform into a mass of black clouds/consciousness, that is.
Xavier can kill people with his telepathy, along with a lot of other things. He can freeze a person's perception of time for starters, or give people strokes and lots of other crazy stuff. He can do more than just control people.
SANs could kill people instantly by just passing over them as a mass of consciousness. It wasn't even ability. It was just a side-effect.
Xavier can do the same to billions of people, and even attempted to mind-crush Galactus (LINK). It didn't work, but he had some serious cajoles to even try that. Nate is at his level in that area and can even out-match him at some points, even before he's Shaman, so it's not likely that Dracula's aura will have any real effect.
EDIT: What I meant was that Xavier could kill people with his telepathy, and do something similar.
Well, Nate can phase through matter, create psychic armor and duke it out with the Hulk, survive in the vacuum of space and shut off a person's powers with his telepathy.
As Shaman, he can teleport himself and others into different universes. He can also enter the planck length, the time in-between moments, to greatly increase his speed or manipulate time along with all his other aforementioned abilities.
Nate's telepathy is powerful enough to contend with Xavier's telepathy (one of the most powerful telepaths in Marvel), even before he becomes Shaman.
You sure about that?
Here's an example of Pre-Shaman Nate, and he only becomes more powerful as Shaman.
He has powerful telepathy as well, so Dracula's aura is not likely to work.
Here are many of his feats: Link
H4X powers mean nothing if you don't have the time to even use them or the reaction necessary to activate them before complete and utter disintegration. Perhaps you simply weren't paying attention. It doesn't matter what TP Luke might have or what he can do when Activating his attunement to the Force to a higher level, when all Goku needs is to Look at him to destroy him.
I have payed attention and what you've said, repeatedly, is nonsense. You don't know Luke as he is in the expanded universe, and I am not inclined to believe anything you say considering this matter either. You're ignoring Luke's reaction feats... again.
@GIRUGAMESH: I was responding to ReiKai, not to you in this post. I apologize for any misunderstanding. If that's what that comment about me was about.
Not in terms of destructive capacity, what I've been trying to explain is that Luke can win via telepathy or his other H4X. Power means nothing, if a character doesn't have a defense against those H4X.
You say Goku's FTL and stuff, but since you don't bother to give good explanations to support it I'm not inclined to believe you.