@nishi99: This thread is long done, I'm debating to clear up the misunderstandings.
@EVA_01: The force if moon hits the earth should be able to wreck the earth, let alone 13x the force.
@BarThaRipper: this is what we call an outlier. an outlier is a feat done by a character that is only done once, and is much more powerful then what they normally show to be capable of.
for instance: Spiderman beating up a Herald of Galactus. is it apart of the story? yes. is it official? yes. was is a legit feat? nope. Spidey is only a 25 tonner with hypersonic reactions, nowhere near Herald level.
see what i'm trying to say? Roshi did indeed blow up the moon, it did happen, but its an outlier, and thus he's only consistently a city-to mountain buster. nowhere near moon level.
Lol I know what an outlier is, the infamous Batkick is a good example of one but for some reason I have never found Roshi's moon feat that unbelievable. Its a debate that's been going on for years and it certainly wont end now lol I get both POV's, it really does not make sense, but it wouldn't be DB's only inconsistency.
roshi's feat is very unbelievable when you realize tao pai pai who was stronger got killed by a grenade.
You mean how humans could also make beings stronger than the emperor of the universe is also believable?
Goku was shown to be resistant to ordinary bombs. The only plausible explanation is that the grenade made by RR ( Who made androids stronger than the ultimate race in the universe ) had moon level potency which is also quite believable.
There were 2 moon busting feats on panel, calling it outlier makes me laugh :3.
Cosmicknight is probably coming here to bring his "Lol Goku got hurt by a rock, Lol Cell's strongest punch only destroyed a small boulder" argument.
Dream already explain to him the concept of attack potency, not sure if he just refuses to believe it or not.
Piccolo at 400 busted the moon at 400 yet Nappa at 7,000 only busted a continent, why is that?
That attack that busted the moon would not do shit to someone who had 5,000 powerlevel, but I can assure you that Nappa's two finger technique would kill someone at that league, why you ask? It's the potency of the attack, we don't base fictional attacks by its scope of destruction, we base it on its potential. We can see Frieza's planet busting attack not hurting Trunks, yet Android 18's small boulder punch attacks hurt Trunks like hell. Another example would be the kamikazee of Chiaotzu at the powerlevel of 1,000+, that attack that cost his LIFE only had the scope of as much as a hill, yet Piccolo Daimao at 200+ destroyed a city.
The only way we can get the attack potential is if we powerscale, of course there are PIS moments and outliers, that's why we use reasonable statements to back it up.
However, you might be thinking of it to be double standard. "Doesn't that mean that an attack that destroyed a galaxy can only so much be an ant bite to a person?", the answer is no, of course you need to generate enough energy to make it Galaxy Level. Galaxy Level AoE = Galaxy Level Potency, But Galaxy Level Potency is not always = Galaxy Level AoE.
That concludes my argument.
What happened to debaters these days o.o
Vegeta's a planet buster ( Pre-Ape ) for the following reasons.
- Goku and the Z fighters can sense powerlevels, they should know if it's a bluff.
- Piccolo at 400 busted the moon, which makes it logical for Vegeta at this level to bust a planet ( Don't give me that pitiful outlier excuse ).
- Vegeta busted the planet on anime ( Non-Canon but gives us an idea ).
And yes cell's statement is true, but...
...1 - He can probably only do it by busting the sun.
...2 - No current Goku cannot bust the galaxy even if we powerscale from this, the difference between the solar system and the galaxy is like a human and the sun.
If we go by feats then yes Juubi wins this, but don't forget, many characters are weak without feats, one example of this would be One-Above-All. Thus we should also consider reasonable statements and powerscales.
Team 1 probably wins both rounds.
He'd probably SS level or something.
They do. The poison is Coco's life force. They arn't clones or dummies. It's a perfect duplicate down to the bones. We saw when he recreated Careru down to the super speed ability it possessed. There's no known limit but I'd assume a reasonable assumption is that he cant create a doll stronger than himself. Coco can definitely win this poison doll and mold spear. Of course Piccolo can as well but it's 50/50.
He'll be able to sense it's fake due to another presence having greater ki, but he will not know of the poison.
I say 50/50 if piccolo decides to go h2h, pure 100 in favor of piccolo if piccolo decides to go ki blast ( Like he did against raditz )
^ Before Nail
After nail I don't think the poison will touch piccolo due to the speed of his punches.
DBZalmost every shounen anime, full of shit.
Dude i'm being nice, special beam canon >>> masenko in terms of speed.
That's nice, and that's relevant to what i said previously how?
You said it wasn't special beam canon, special beam canon is much much faster than masenko, thus making my argument much more favorable.
Piccolo managed to destroy the moon before gohan did some real damage
Cool...I guess., Gohan's powerlevel at that time was somewhere around 1,000 ( given the 10x powerup ),
Power levels are irrelevant, but proceed.
Irrelevant? Piccolo at 400+ destroyed the moon with mid effort, no way gohan at 1000 powerlevel could not spam continent level attacks.
which was enough powerlevel to spam continent level blasts, yet when piccolo destroyed the moon, not even a landscape was destroyed.
Who said any APE could do anything like that? The most we've seen a great Ape destroy was a mountain. And for your argument to hold any weight, we would need to see how fast one of these Great Apes can destroy one of these continents.
The most we've seen current krillin destroy is a mountain, so are you implying he is only mountain level ignoring powerscales?
That and we have no real time to base it therefore we can only base it anime time.
Yeah.. You can't do that. lol
So inconclusion you have wait for it. NO TIME FRAME.
I'm cool with it being really fast, but don't try and make it as if it was light speed. lol
Yep No Timeframe, but we have the following proofs
-Gohan not shown even destroying a city in the mentioned timeframe
-The blast reached the moon before piccolo even said moon
-The moon was in the same position when the blast reached it.
Do you have any counter proofs now?
Then try to connect it to every other one of his attacks, as well as every other Ki BASED attack ( Not saying you did this, just DBZ fans have been doing this for a while.)
Every other one of his attacks is also fast, but not SHOWN to be fast specially in the anime since timeframes are not given, just like Goku arrived to namek and beat frieza in just 1 hour seemed like weeks for us.
because on another scan raditz fails to outrun a ki blast.
I'm not saying he was faster than SBC, but the point that he managed to dodge it gives him relativistic feats, and i could argue that the ki blast that outrun him was above relativistic.
Already went over this several times now, potency claim Im not buyi
So you're saying that Piccolo daimao at 200 powerlevel is city level yet Chiaotzu's suicide at 1,200 powerlevel caps only at small boulder? I don't think that's what you're implying.
- Two on panel moon busting feats shown on manga by two below 500 powerlevel guys
- Goku can sense powerlevels ( He knows if it's a bluff or not )
- Again, didn't dream explain to you the concept of attack potency which applies in almost all shounen animes? ( Otherwise current hisoka would only be small boulder level )
It isn't a stomp. This is borderline extreme difficulty , toriko team wins for few reasons, since gynu Corp wouldn't work together, and just end up on rock paper scissors.
7 planet busters
If guldo stops time they are screwed, racoom could solo.
@flashback180: how does this matter in a race?Big difference between movement speed & travel speed, flying drains a lot more energy
@eddz99: a short burst of speed is useless in a 1 million KM race. toriko outruns goku's flight.
A short burst? Who knows if they cannot do it for a long time? You can say the same for toriko. The snake way is 1m km, goku must have rested in between that's why it took that long, what makes you think toriko won't do the same?
@eddz99:Round 1: Goku outspeeds Toriko specially with kaioken ( Raditz dodging special beam canon that hit the moon in 5 seconds in point blank range )
First, special beam canon wasn't the blast that blew up the moment if that's what you're implying
Second, how and where did you get this 5 sec time frame from?
Dude i'm being nice, special beam canon >>> masenko in terms of speed.
Piccolo managed to destroy the moon before gohan did some real damage, Gohan's powerlevel at that time was somewhere around 1,000 ( given the 10x powerup ), which was enough powerlevel to spam continent level blasts, yet when piccolo destroyed the moon, not even a landscape was destroyed. That and we have no real time to base it therefore we can only base it anime time.