axavierhansz (Level 6)

Master Chief has a plasma sword Goku has power pole

Goku is at just before meeting Bulma

At the time of Super Vegeta, nobody was aware that Cell was capable of regenerating from a single cell (they knew he had Namekian Regen but Piccolo can only regen if his head is intact). Vegeta wouldn't become aware of this until he fails at least once.

Due to ignorance it is very likely that Super Vegeta will blast Cell into smithereens but does not spend extra time blasting each individual chunk. If this does happen, which it quite possibly does, on top of getting a second chance Cell also gets a power boost. Also Vegeta doesn't have microscopic vision so if he leaves one or two cells from Cell alive he won't even be aware of it.

Gohan on the other hand was already fully aware of Buu's regen capabilities from watching his previous fights so although Buu has stronger regeneration Gohan will be destroying Buu's pieces every chance he gets. To Buu's credit, he does have better regeneration.

I don't have an opinion on who wins that's why I posted this.

Rules: Whoever kills his opponent fastest wins

Super Vegeta fights semi perfect cell

Gohan after Old Kai's spell fights normal version of Super Buu

Both Vegeta and Gohan are aware that they are being put in a contest with the above rules.

Yugi stomps

reason: Yugi is the only one to have dark hole in his deck out of these players. Yuma and Yugi are the only ones to have monster reborn (but really, Yuma's got nothing on Yugi). dark hole and reborn were both banned for a long time in the actual card game because of how powerful they are. Yugi also has Black Luster Soldier Envoy of the Beginning in his deck which is stated in yugioh gx that the ONLY reason it isn't banned is because almost nobody has one so they didn't bother.

Yugi and Atem are both extremely skilled duelists, with Yugi being able to defeat Atem despite the egyptian cards. Yes, it was a plot device, but Kaiba nevertheless stated that it was an incredible play. Even without the egyptian cards, Yugi/Atem are the most skilled of all. If Egyptian cards are allowed and Yugi is both Atem and Yugi in the same body, then there really isn't any contest.

Egyptian cards roflstomps quasar because they are unaffected by monsters and traps, and any spell effect acting on them will disappear in one turn. What is more, Atem has demonstrated his ability to easily summon egpytian cards even while facing highly skilled opponents (vs Yugi, vs Kaiba, vs Marik), while shooting quasar dragon in the game requires PIS to summon (something about clear mind).

Yugi stomps

@KingOfSnipers said:

I'm guessing this is Mags before the Phoenix screwed his powers up. If so, Cell doesn't stand much of a chance before Erik does something like open up a wormhole in his body.

sry wormhole in body doesn't help. wormhole in body doesn't physically obliterate every single cell of Cell's body, which means cell can regenerate (unless by wormhole you mean black hole). in such a situation, cell would become even stronger, and possibly even acquire magneto's powers (he learned instant transmission from goku). second of all, how fast are magneto's reflexes? are they fast enough to track cell if cell starts pulling evasive maneuvers? how much faster is magneto's reaction time compared to a normal human? cell is extremely fast and is capable of changing directions almost instantly. also what is the time delay between magneto's use of his powers and the actual arrival of the hit?

now i'm not saying that magneto isn't gonna win. but im not sure about his reflexes and casting speed and i think that this factor is gonna play a huge role here. if he can't instantcast, he won't be able to stop cell from firing a planet killing attack

not sure about the forcefield. can someone show scans of the forcefield's full potential? how does it do against planet killers? or quote which chapter the forcefield demonstrates feats to block cell.

actually i'm pretty sure moving at the speed of light or faster is hax

from a relativity standpoint, if ur absolute speed is higher than light, ur mass is, unless im mistaken, infinite. ur energy is also infinite (this is assuming you are something that has mass to begin with, which is why light itself not having infinite mass doesn't contradict anything since it is massless to begin with). infinite mass moving at any type of speed = infinite energy = hax.

now, you're gonna argue that this isn't sci fi forums, screw relativity.

fine. here's another reason why it's hax. anything that is moving faster than the speed of light cannot be seen in a meaningful way. that is, if i am moving towards you at faster than the speed of light, i am,in the context of a fight, invisible. i'mnot actually invisible but you cannot see me before i hit you, since the light that bounces off me travels slower than i do. by the time the light from my body reaches you, i would've hit you already.

this means that in the context of a fight, i am invisible. what is more since this isn't actual invisiblity but rather moving faster than light, there is no countermeasure. it's not like in star trek where your scanners can scan through the romulan cloaking field, because you CAN see me. i'm just invisible because you can't see me before you die.

faster than light movement = unbreakable invisiblity = hax.

now i recognize that some entities don't need eyesight to see. still, the fact that there are ways to defeat you doesn't make you less hax.

e.g. Q in star trek can defeat other Q. just because they're defeatable doesn't make them less hax.

@Supreme Marvel: if i remember correctly, it was either just after he jumped in to try to save vegeta from android 18, or it was after watching android 18 fight vegeta.

it is possible that the future versions are weaker than the main timeliine versions. the events of the future timeline happened very differently.

for example, future gohan doesn't have potential.

it's known for a fact that when gohan is pushed to his limit, when watching others suffer, etc, his power will go up

but in future timeline even after seeing so much suffering, getting his arm blown off, etc, he never showed a little bit of potential

future timeline and main timeline are really different.

@5th: this is debatable but

i think dimensional warping falls under "hax" category. also i think faster than light movements are considered as hax category.

therefore u cant use that character

@UltimateHero0406

are you saying yami yugi is hax? lol hilarious

@SMXLR8

you are a troll. i read the rules of your thread over and over again. it's basically a troll thread. goku has the hax power of teleportation, and even goku ssj1 is many, many times stronger than someone who can tank a planet killer without a scratch. you put ssj3 goku.

all characters i know of that have that level of power also have hax abilities. obviously my knowledge is limited, but from what i have been reading so far from this thread, everyone else is also having a hard time finding one.

the reason i say you're a troll is

-u know that there are very few characters that can tank planet killing attacks but also have no hax abilities

-you ask that we come up with non-hax characters to kill someone that considers planet killers to be as strong as ants, knowing that such characters are extremely rare

-in other words u created the thread knowing that within the rules you set, it is extremely unlikely that anyone will be able to come up with anything good. you know that any argument we make will be futile due to the rules you set

= troll

Oh I forgot to add. If in character, Yami Yugi solos because he can easily convince Goku to play a shadow game, then penalty game on Goku's soul. I mean heck, tao was able to get Goku to try those ring puzzles without much effort. Even if Goku is evil, Yugi's superior psychological manipulation should have no problems convincing Goku to play.

OP is dumb

OP explicitly states no hax powers allowed.

Goku is universal threat (he is equal to Buu who is universal threat)

Thing is, universal threat is already kind of hax by itself, because by DBZ logic, power level increase also allows you to defend against higher level attacks (e.g. first appearance super saiyan future trunks who survived planet killer attack without any damage, and who could use his bare hands to block a sword strike by a planet-buster character).

Basically, anyone who is above a universal threat HAS to be hax (e.g. superman can fight at full strength even after his heart stops = nearly immortal, hulk has theoretically infinite strength depending on his anger level, which puts him on omnipotence power levels). But having hax powers instantly makes the character inadmissible. Plus, Goku has hax powers himself (instant transmission, which, as shown in Cell saga, can be used during battle).

As it stands, SSJ3 Goku > SSJ2 Goku > FPSSJ Goku > early SSJ Goku > early SSJ Future Trunks > Frieza

Freiza = someone who could produce a world killing attack while not at full strength, using a single finger, without any exertion, and early SSJ Future Trunks = tanks planet killing attack without a scratch.

Basically you would need galaxy killers to touch Goku. But how many non-hax characters do we known that can destroy galaxies?

Let me summarize the rules of this battle

Rule 1) Goku wins.

/thread

@SMXLR8 said:

@axavierhansz: SUPERMAN STOMPS

Get out of my thread troll.

Can Taikoubo react/attack faster than the speed of sound?

If no: can he survive in outer space

If no: Taikoubou cannot win because in a worst case scenario for Goku/Frieza, they get desperate and destroy planet, causing Goku to suffocate, and Frieza will probably just leave.

If yes: let the discussions continue

@othus12 said:

yugi should have at least 10 or 20 seconds or else he gets destroyed, maybe if he can summon the monster he wishes he can go straight for horakthy

Why is that? You forget that Yugi has actual magical abilities that can kill/banish/brainwash. Even without monsters, those things are accessible to him. And unless I'm mistaken, Superman does not have superpowers in the area of magic/anti-magic.

Plus, Yugi can bring Superman into a Shadow Game almost instantly, where Yugi can choose a fair game that must be played. If Superman simply destroys Yugi, and that wasn't part of the shadow game that Yugi arbitrarily decides on, Superman will be inflicted a Penalty Game, which can range from hallucinations to death. What is more, Yugi can change a portion of the arena into Shadow Realm.

All of Yugi's magical powers are depicted as instant-cast. Why does he need 20-30 seconds?

@UltimateHero0406 said:

@axavierhansz: Superman kills Yugi. Laser eye beams and such.

And I doubt Yugi can even banish Superman unless he is beaten in a duel. So unless Superman is given a deck, this won't be much of a fight.

I specifically stated that Yugi has all of his powers for use. I'll edit the post to make that clearer.

What's to stop Yugi from creating a portal to the shadow realm to redirect/nullify the laser?

What's to stop Yugi from simultaneously mind crushing Superman at the same time that Superman fires a laser? I could be mistaken but Mind Crush doesn't seem to need aiming. He kind of just banishes in that general direction and his opponent gets mind crushed.

Not saying Yugi wins, not saying Superman wins. You guys debate it. But you're gonna need to do better than that to say Superman stomps.

Rules: Superman is restricted to the speed of sound, and flying 300 meters above ground, and cannot dig underground.

Fight takes place in a cell games arena 10,000 times bigger area. Boundaries of arena extend above the arena (i.e. can't just fly outside). Both combatants start at opposite sides of the arena in plain sight of each other. Yugi has a 0.75 second head start (equal to human reaction time) so that superman can't just use his superhuman reactions to instantly finish Yami Yugi. Yami Yugi has all his powers. Edit: To clarify, this means that Yugi can use any power he has been shown to possess, regardless of their situational requirements.

Both will try their best to incapacitate/kill/banish into shadow realm their opponent

Fight!

If anyone watches the Soul eater franchise, they would know that the most annoying character is Excalibur, by a large margin.

Hiro is the only one who could put up with it (for a while), but despite being the single weakest student at death academy, he was able to instantly defeat 3 of the strongest students, including shinigami's own son, with infinitesimal effort, due to the power of excalibur.

Scenario: Excalibur did not catch a cold, so Hiro did not get rid of him. Hiro over the course of many months learns a lot about how to use Excalibur to its potential, including unlocking all its techniques.

Vs shinigami at peak power

Both bloodlusted

who wins?

@ohgodwhy: If Majin vegeta ssj = non majin vegeta ssj2

then

goku ssj = ssj2 vegeta since majin vegeta = goku

during cell games vegeta is probably half of goku's strength, if not more (going by what vegeta sensed from goku powering up at korin's place, vegeta believed that he had surpassed goku. goku stated that the power-up was only 50%.)

assuming during cell games vegeta is roughly half of goku's strength

then

cell games vegeta > vegeta with 7 more years of training

look man i respect your opinion but what you're saying is bs. vegeta is one of the hardest training characters in the series. how can vegeta LOSE POWER after 7 years of intense training?

i realize i shouldn't beat a dead horse but i feel that your last post was just too illogical for me to not attack. unless you're trolling, in which case you've succeeded.

i mean, yes it is possible that vegeta got weaker after 7 years of intense training. i'm not the author, i dont know. like u said, its up to the readers to decide what to believe.

@axavierhansz: You raise good points but at the end of the day, the facts are the facts.

1) The Majin curse only worked on Vegeta because there was evil in his heart.

2) Dabura noted that Vegeta had a lot of evil in his heart. As the demon king, I'm sure he's fairly adept at identifying evil.

3) Piccolo himself told Vegeta that regardless of any good he may have done, he was still going to hell (or a different plane, as were his direct words) because of all his past transgressions.

4) He didn't seem too bothered when he killed all the hundreds of people in the crowd, twice. Or when he killed all the innocent Namekians. Or when he blew up that planet with those weird aliens on it (Although that was anime filler I'll admit).

As Piccolo has stated, Vegeta's soul would be cleansed in the otherworld. This would explain why he was no longer Majin and why he was able to be revived as a good guy wouldn't it?

Now as for my point about Goku being far superior to Vegeta. I believe that still stands, he was well beyond Vegeta ever since the Frieza saga and that gap only got wider, not narrower. The fact of the matter is this, Vegeta simply could not hold a candle to Goku if it wasn't for the Majin transformation. For me, this is clear evidence that the Majin transformation increased his power significantly. Plus like I stated, Goku trained in the other world for 7 years. He received numerous benefits over that time that Vegeta did not such as training from the Kais, Limitless Ki (This was hinted when he said he couldn't hold his SSJ3 transformation on Earth for Long), Immortality because he was already dead (So he could receive massive Zenkai boosts). What did Vegeta have? Gravity training?

But yeah, Goku's always been well ahead of Vegeta, it's the whole reason Vegeta let himself fall under the transformation as was stated by Vegeta himself. He knew the only way he could hope to even compete with Goku SSJ2 was to accept the becoming Majin and effectively selling his soul.

Finally, I think that first scan I posted does show that Vegeta was indeed impressed that Goku had finally surpassed Gohan. For me, it's clear, it's in the text and I think you're overthinking it. Like you said, it's DBZ, there's no need to overthink things. SSJ2 Teen Gohan was really powerful, Vegeta noted when Dabura and Gohan fought that Gohan's power had fallen significantly since the battle with Cell.

@ohgodwhy said:

Excellent points. Finally an intelligent debate.

First I would like to note that it's pretty easy for Dabura to SAY that there is a lot of evil in Vegeta's heart. That's all very well, but I think the consensus is that character statements are only acceptable proof if they are not contradicted by actual feats/events. In this case, the fact that Vegeta was revived by a wish reviving good people is an event directly contradicting Dabura's character statement. Unless I'm mistaken, in such cases we reject the character statement and accept the actual event as true.

Second of all, you said that Vegeta was cleansed. If we accept Piccolo's character statement as true, then Vegeta was NOT CLEANSED. Why? Because Piccolo himself stated that not only will Vegeta be cleansed, he would be given a new existence (i.e. reincarnation). If Vegeta had been cleansed successfully, please tell me why he was still dead? He should have been reincarnated already. Therefore it is evident that he was either unsuccessfully cleansed, there was nothing to cleanse, or that there wasn't enough time to cleanse him yet. Furthermore, not sure about the manga, but in the anime, when Vegeta was about to be sent back to Earth by Yemma, his first words were :"So, the mighty King Yemma comes grovelling to me". Does that sound like someone who's been cleansed to you? What is more, after being revived, Vegeta was furious at Goku, and refused to co-operate with Goku to fight Buu until after Goku used a lot of persuasion and Buu almost killing them both. Again, doesn't seem very cleansed, does it? The result of cleansing has already been shown in dbz: Uub. Successful cleansing actually makes the person nice. Vegeta remains selfish and mean, showing that he was not cleansed. You might be saying, well doesn't that prove he's evil? No. Selfish, mean, and evil are NOT the same thing. Selfish, mean Vegeta would act like that without needing to be evil. Cleansed vegeta would not.

I'm not overthinking it. It's just that if Vegeta indeed received a massive boost through the majin spell, this would contradict many parts of dragonball z, while if he received only a small boost it would contradict none. As many have stated, a 5% overall power difference (i.e. speed and poewr level and ki) can mean the difference between a draw and a decisive win. A small boost like that would be consistent with the storyline: the charm increases Vegeta's strength negligibly but tapping into his rage and fury allows him to power up more effectively (saiyan transformations have been stated many times to be emotion based), but the charm itself doesn't increase Vegeta's strength. It is also possible that Vegeta can't transform into the super saiyan 2 form without the majin charm, as, again, saiyan transformations are emotion based, so he needed to unlock his hatred to gain access to ssj2. This last point is especially likely since

a) this explains why Vegeta needs majin charm

b) this explains why Vegeta was impressed with Goku, since he required majin charm to go ssj2

c) this does not require a high level of evil in Vegeta to work

d) since this doesn't require a high level of evil in Vegeta, the underworld cleansing paradox wouldn't happen (to reiterate, vegeta cleansed = vegeta reincarnated. vegeta not cleansed = vegeta can't be reborn, assuming vegeta is evil)

e) since Vegeta doesn't need to be highly evil any more, it explains how he was able to be revived by a wish reviving only good guys

f) it wouldn't suggest that Vegeta's strength stayed roughly the same after 7 years of hardcore training

g) it would explain why Goten and Trunks never achieved ssj2: they never had the emotional upheaval or training in afterlife with infinite ki or magically unlocked anger needed to gain ssj2. after all, it was clear that goten and trunks had massive potential, seeing how they both achieved ssj far earlier than even Gohan.

Summary: majin spell giving Vegeta access to ssj2 is consistent with everything in the storyline, including the scans you posted. majin spell giving vegeta a massive power boost has a very large number of inconsistencies which I have pointed out. it just doesn't add up.

in which case ssj2 vegeta still stomps cell+gohan since it assumes he has the ssj2 form already.

@ohgodwhy said:

@axavierhansz: Yes, I'm a troll. Well done you got me.

First of all, Vegeta wouldn't have sacrificed himself for the Earth, clearly he doesn't care about humans because he just killed hundreds of them for no reason. The only reason why I think he sacrificed himself for was to save his son and his wife, who he does care about. That's two people.

How about the millions/billions of aliens that Vegeta killed throughout his entire life? Does one good act make up for the years of evil he committed? He's clearly got evil in his heart but he became a lot more tame after gaining a family and friends but like I and Piccolo stated, that wouldn't make up for a lifetime of evil.

So like I said, Vegeta is at his core evil, hence why he gained a massive power up as Majin Vegeta.

Then I suppose you can look at how much of a powerup that Spopovich got. I doubt that he in his entire life time killed even 0.001% of the people that Vegeta killed and Spopovich too received a massive power up.

I also posted a scan above which showed that Vegeta was impressed that Goku SS2 had surpassed SSJ2 Teen Gohan's PL, why would Vegeta be impressed by such a feat if he himself had also surpassed SSJ2 Teen Gohan's PL.

In conclusion, I believe that SSJ2 Teen Gohan > SSJ2 Vegeta and the Majin transformation clearly gave Vegeta a big power up.

AS for your theories, like I said I disagree with all of them because the Majin powerup increases someone's power level depending on how evil they are. I suppose the closest option you gave was possibility 2. I've already explained why Goku would've been much stronger than Vegeta at this point.

First of all: the at core evil point is DIRECTLY refuted by canon. When it was wished for all good people who died after Babidi came to earth would be revived, Vegeta was revived. Therefore Vegeta = good guy. During early DBZ, Vegeta actually hinted that he didn't want to kill innocents. He said that he didn't want to be ruthless but it was the only thing he knows due to Frieza. Being a ruthless killer by choice is evil. Being a ruthless killer because you were forced to fight since you were a child is not evil. After Frieza died, Vegeta has proven with his actions that given a choice, he fights on the side of good. How many people he has killed in the past is irrelevant. Past sins cannot be erased, but they do not determine a person's goodness or evilness. Otherwise, Piccolo, Tien are evil too.

Also, you said that Vegeta only sacrificed himself for his wife and son. Vegeta DIRECTLY STATED that he also did it for Goku ("and yes, even for you, Kakarot"). So your point is instantly disproved. Before that, we could hear Vegeta thinking to himself "I may be gone, but this planet will be safe" (in anime anyway). Again, disproving your point. Furthermore, when Vegeta was no longer Majin, he took extra care to make sure that the people he killed would be brought back to life when making the wish. Even Goku didn't think about doing that. If Vegeta didn't care about human life, why would he do that? 100 people is not going to make a difference to the Spirit bomb. If he doesn't care about human life, why would he bother?

Of course vegeta would be impressed that Goku had surpassed Gohan. Before seeing Goku's strength, Vegeta believed himself to be the strongest out of all of Earth's warriors. Vegeta saw Goku as a disgrace to Saiyans, or, at minimum, a low class warrior. If you were the prince of all Saiyans, would you not be impressed if a low class warrior matched the strength you were only able to achieve after 7 years of constant training? Or would you be like, meh, that low class warrior guy is exactly as strong as I am even after I have trained hard for 7 years, I'm not impressed. Which would it be?

I am not saying you are wrong, I am merely saying that Vegeta being impressed proves nothing. If Vegeta was the same as Goku's strength before the Majin charm, it would still be in-character for him to be impressed by Goku's strength. Vegeta's direct statements, thoughts, and actions, as well as the fact that he was reborned by a wish which only revives the good guys, all serve to prove that Vegeta's level of evil is extremely low. Therefore, if majin charm boosts strength based on level of evil, Vegeta would gain little strength.

Lastly, if you're saying that Vegeta gains a boost that is greater than Spopovich's in terms of a multiplier, you're basically saying that Vegeta got weaker after 7 years of training (re-read my previous posts to understand why). This is impossible.

@ohgodwhy said:

@axavierhansz: What was one of the first things Vegeta did in his majin form? I believe it was to kill 100s of innocent people in the crowd, yeah I'm fairly sure he's pretty evil.

I read your post, but I didn't agree with any of the points so I ignored it.

So you're saying that a guy that kills 100 people but sacrifices himself to save billions is evil?

Again, I'm not saying Vegeta is pure hearted or good or anything. But anyone who sacrifices his life to save others cannot be classified as Evil. Furthermore, keep in mind that the Majin charm increases his original level of evil. Vegeta kills 100 people AFTER receiving the majin charm. In other words, he killed 100 people WHILE IN A STATE OF MAGICALLY INCREASED EVIL. In that same state of MAGICALLY INCREASED EVIL, he blows himself up to save the planet, EVEN THOUGH he knows that in the afterlife he will suffer in hell. Again, I stress that this selfless act was while in a state of artificially increased evil. Therefore Vegeta's normal evilness is very very low. Therefore if Vegeta's strength is increased based on his amount of evil, he would gain nearly zero power.

You say you read my post. Which point didn't you agree with? All of them? How about instead of just saying you're wrong, post what was wrong with my reasoning so we can have an intelligent discussion? Or are you a troll?