321zigzag1 (Level 9)

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Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Dark Shneider vs Shuma Gorath

@Low said:

@321zigzag1 said:

Dispel Bound is not everything I have as an argument. You might not have been listening, but didn't I say DS broke the fabric of reality? Aka big bang level explosion required behind it. Anyway, I quit because you don't appear to want to continue debating, simply due to Shuma being the superior entity, and I have no claim against that.

Should I ask that question on reality back to you? Fabric of reality is not just one. Generally it is thought encompassing the universe. Sise Neg, Death, or Strange cannot break break fabric of reality now? Plus you don't need to be universal to break reality.

To be honest though, Shuma Gorath in a different dimension is really matter of speculation in terms of how powerful he may be. He can be very weak to being pretty powerful.

"You don't appear to want to continue debating."

Not sure where you got that from, I was not trying to imply as such. I have forgotten much on DS anyway. It's nice to refresh yourself.

@Low said:

@321zigzag1 said:

Here's Lucifer explaining how much power it would require to break the reality between dimensions, which was what they were trying to do to break DS out. However, in the fight, DS dealt and tanked such realive force, easily explaining. Like I said before, if I am to simply accept nothing can be done against Shuma, then there is little use in trying to debate. The argument that Dispel Bound is invincible, as you put it, has more to do with the fact DS can keep it going for eternity given if Shuma is not able to attack as many times. DS's speed is so great, he was able to go towards infinity to break Uriel's Dispel Bound, emerging out as superior.

Here's DS dealing and taking reality busting attacks.

This feat, according to Lucifer, requires energy relative to the creation of the universe - Big Bang. Thats all I have to say here, really. Current DS, the one fighting Porno Diano, is even stronger. Hes putting out Galaxy busting+ attacks in a restricted state. If you want to debate on, I have said DS is not a mere galaxy buster. He casually destroys Galaxies.

Then what would you argue on DS at his full power?

"The argument that Dispel Bound is invincible, as you put it, has more to do with the fact DS can keep it going for eternity given if Shuma is not able to attack as many times. DS's speed is so great, he was able to go towards infinity"

Well I hate to break it to you but that's relative too.

Your argument hinges on that Shuma Gorath's volume of attack isn't greater than DS's output or speed of his attack or both or etc.

I will say this though, this is partly up to conjecture because Shuma Gorath isn't the same in all lesser realms in power.

Because infinite is relative itself. Contradictory it sounds like but true. Math is a good example.

I will say this if Dispel Bound succeeds then that is that I suppose.

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Dark Shneider vs Shuma Gorath

@taichokage said:

Good debate guys. I'm not certain myself. I wish I knew more about Shuma. Sometimes wiki checking isn't enough. It essentially comes down to one point, which is stronger the unstoppable force (Shuma's energy eating) or the immovable object (Dispel Bound)?

Both are relative. "unstoppable" "immovable" are relative terms.

Heck I will use Math as an example.

In Math there are infinites but they aren't the same size in concept.

Prime Number infinite vs. Positive Numbers infinite? THe latter is more in quantity despite being both infinite.

The point is though Shuma Gorath at his best always operated on a much higher scale. Problem is that he has few appearances.

@Low

said:

@321zigzag1: Disregarding everything else, considering that he is multiversal+, am I to simply assume DS has no dominion over Shuma? Certainly you don't believe that when a stronger than Darsh wizard (though by behavior both DS and strange dwell in the same level of magic) beats on Shuma,

All you have is Dispel Bound.

What exactly do I have a reason to believe DS can do better than what Death the concept herself did in Cancerverse?

What exactly do I have a reason to believe DS can do better than what Sise Neg can do?

@Low said:

@321zigzag1: DS would not be capable of doing the same thing? Even Strange was taking dominion over foreign powers and beings in his path to supremecy, the exact same thing DS has done.

You are arguing more on concepts than just more on feats. Be more specific in what you are saying on what DS did. You say DS did what STrange did.

Show me. Surely it wouldn't be too difficult?

Just because they both did something similar doesn't automatically translate they are on the same level.

For example Avatar State Aang and Rikudo Sennin are conceptually similar. Yet by feats they are clearly not.

You seem to be going on a tangent DS being a magic user automatically grants STrange feats to him. Except feats are the most important.

All you argued was Dispel Bound and you first initially claimed it was invincible but then you admitted they can be broken. It's all relative.

Here I will start things off then.

Classic Strange fluctuates. Normally he would be weaker than DS by a strong margin but at his best he operates universal to beyond. For example he can be an avatar for Eternity. His power fluctuation also depends on his conjuring power.

Normally Shuma Gorath's showings on earth are pitiful to his real self in his actual dimension with the exception of Sise Neg. But I am assuming Shuma Gorath is at his best the neutral dimension can allow.

@Low said:

@321zigzag1: If I'm to simply accept based on nothing, I guess I should quit? lol. iight. I see how it is.

You never bothered to even counter Death example or Sise Neg example yet you call it nothing.

For what purpose?

Who told you it was nothing?

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Dark Shneider vs Shuma Gorath

Because Shuma Gorath has barely any fights and most of them are in his depowered state, we have to recognize that his is more based on statements and indirect conclusions partly.

@Low said:

@Saladking:

Okay, heres the deal. A sorcerer like DS managed to beat Shuma, someone with magic that Shuma is eating. Dispel Bound already blocks such trival attempts as eating energy.

@321zigzag1: Oh dispel bound can be broken alright. But, DS was constantly repairing any damage done to it (as they are literally various manners of shields) in a millionth of a second. Some of the shields outright ban certain aspects like power while there are blocks and stuff like that. Shuma is breaking them, but if he is not able to overpower DS's speed of reforming, eventually, DS will just win. He's survived an FTL battle with another Dispel Bound user, countering and repairing at the same time, this was likely slower than his actual speed which would be against Shuma as in this case, he does not have to deal with another Dispel Bound.

Equating Classic Strange at his best with Dark Schneider isn't going to cut it. Dormammu himself who is generally overall above him doesn't compare to Shuma Gorath (if you dispute that make a thread)

So now you say it can be broken? Then why did you say it can't be?

When Classic Strange went to fight Gorath, he was trained under Kaluu in the art of black magic and he surpassed him. Later Classic Strange merged with one of SHuma Gorath's minions, Arioch who was a dimensional god if I recall, who had the power to make himself powerful as he can imagine. (technically no limits fallacy but it speaks of Shuma Gorath's power indirectly)

Even then it didn't do anything so Strange proceeded to absorb Chaos Energy from Shuma Gorath and defeat him but in that process he started to turn into another SHuma Gorath himself.

Even with small portions of Shuma Gorath's power Strange was unconsciously destroying galaxies casually.

Already this is above DS.

The only thing you are hanging on is the whole Dispel Bound hax spell which is relative in its power itself.

If Sise Neg who was going back in time to the original source of the universe, who could destroy Strange with a mere thought self-admittedly, yet in all his powers over reality couldn't do anything to Shuma Gorath.

What does exactly DS has over? DS isn't close to Sise Neg who made Classic Strange overpowered as he is wet his pants.

All you have is this Dispel Bound route.

If you want a situation where Shuma Gorath in his lesser realms was killed off temporarily, it was in Cancerverse by 616 Death.

Except Death is very multiversal.

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Dark Shneider vs Shuma Gorath

@Low said:

@321zigzag1 said:

Whats the point of your argument though?

Take in mind that arguments work both ways.

You claimed that dispel bound is invincible and can't be broken by anything whatsoever, even in the multiversal multiple fictional context, which is something that is impossible to prove in any means.

@Low said:

@321zigzag1 said:

Unless Shuma proves he has adequate means to go through absolute defenses of this level, if you consider the concepts of the beings in question that DS has faced, Dispel Bound is holding up. Shuma has sort of lost to magical beings before.

Are there any beings comparable to Shuma Gorath in Bastard?

@Low

said:

@321zigzag1 said:

Shuma has sort of lost to magical beings before.

The list is very short, and nearly all of them were due to plot or sealing and some of them were by Dr. Strange sorcerer supreme.

For example Conan the Barbarian situation or nearly any Shuma Gorath appearance which are very few.

The strongest example is likely when 616 version of Death killed the entire Cancerverse including the 4 angular ones, one of them was Shuma Gorath. But even if he didn't die there.

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Dark Shneider vs Shuma Gorath

@Low said:

@CrosswindVortex: Dash negates immortality using Dispel bound.

Dispel Bound cannot be broken by magic, reality warping or any other force.

These statements are technically relative to the power level of the user.

@Low said:

@CrosswindVortex: Only a Dispel Bound can cancel dispel bound.

Just like "Only an Uchiha can defeat an Uchiha"

It's relative within multiversal context.

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Deidara Vs Laxus

@Saladking said:

@GeneralVan said:

Deidara should actually have a slight speed advantage. If Laxus doesn't kill him before C4 then he's going to have a bad time.

C4 gets deactivated by a simple lightening blast. Why Sasuke didn't just do that was baffling because his chidori needles were deactivating his bombs in the beginning of the fight

he admitted he was testing the deactivation theory when he saw it didn't explode next to Tobi, but he wanted to make sure it wasn't just that Deidara didn't want to commit friendly fire.

Also a mere chidori needle wouldn't deactivate C4. You need a powerful lightning attack. For example Laxus' roar would suffice to break most of it up but of course him being naturally lightning also negates C4.

This is just a classic anti-character matchup. Laxus is literally anti-Deidara any shape or form.

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9
Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Mr. 5 (OP) vs Deidara (Naruto)

@taichokage said:

Scenario 1 might go to Mr. 5. Deidara's flight being restricted is huge. He relies on it to dash away from his own explosions or be out of their range in the first place. He couldn't use any decent explosions whereas Mr 5 can easily snipe him with his small explosions. Scenario 2, Deidara by a landslide.

Deidara is odd. Unlike Haku who is the only in the series to do actual multiple one hand seals, Deidara managed to do an hide under the earth technique, a shadow clone, and substitution while armless.

The shadow clone was for suicide clone explosion while he hid under the earth.

I suppose if his flight is restricted he can rely on those plus use a clay centipede like he did against Itachi.

Mr. 5's durability how good is it? I don't recall it has been forever.

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Deidara Vs Laxus

@Low said:

Luxus one stomped S+ class dark guild by himself.

That's because Raven Tail was mostly fodder to the higher level FT mages. It's more of a massive disappointment to Raven Tail's supposed hype as a dark guild.

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » pre timeskip Tenten (Naruto) vs Kenshin Himura (Rurouni Kenshin)

@othus12 said:

@321zigzag1: really? is he able to dodge tentens big weapon shower scroll? i recall kenshin getting tagged by slower weapons

Well inconsistencies always exist but I say the tag if I recall has to do with more opponents keeping up or that one of the antagonists who was faster than him, forgot his name who was under Shiskio I believe.

Other than long shower scroll what does she have?

I mean there is the kunai bomb but other than that. She can't win cqc.

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » pre timeskip Tenten (Naruto) vs Kenshin Himura (Rurouni Kenshin)

Minus variety of weapon spam and scroll usage, I am pretty sure Kenshn is quite superior. He even has bullet time reflexes at worst case and cut steel with his strength.

Part 2 Tenten would lose as well.

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Szayelaporro Granz Vs Kabuto Yakushi

Base Szayel is rather pretty poor. His prep also involves analyzing his enemy and in his homefield advantage. That's I say Kabuto's prep is better all around.

The only real threat is Carbon Copy for Szayel's released form.

Gabriel Resurrection and Possession of Kabuto's nervous system and body are also threats if Kabuto swallows and eats him.

I wonder if Oral Rebirth is a plausible counter those.

@luthluth said:

Kabuto ends up begging for death.

Sage Kabuto has genjutsu and Manda II.

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Kimimaro (Naruto) vs Senji Kyomasa (Deadman Wonderland)

@TheNeutralOne said:

@UltimateHero0406:

Has kimi's bones ever had to cut through iron? Has he ever even fought anyone with that capability?

He has stated I think when he was in his regular form that his bones were at least as hard as steel. Some translations go "harder than steel"

So at least steel hard quality and above. Of course CS2 is likely to quite boost that.

CS2 Kimimaro was slower though but far denser and stronger all else if I recall.

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Madara vs Fujitora

@TheNeutralOne said:

I was disappointed in the current chapter of naruto. Because now the only way they can win is through some pbs power of friendship garbage.

I will dred the moment when madara says "Believe it!" and they win.

It was much easier to anticipate that with Juubito but its much harder to see that with Madara's situation but who knows.

Madara using Rinne Tensei will be the worst thing ever.

@waybig1010101 said:

how badass would it be if madara wins the war

That would be interesting.

But my only expectation is for the moon to be destroyed only because of the hilarity of the sh**storm that will wave across the internet.

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Fujitora[One Piece] vs. Bluenote [Fairytail]

@Jinbeifan1 said:

@321zigzag1: still based on the little we've seen from acnologia, we dont know whether he's strong enough to tank meteors spamming him from space. Despite being strong enough to destroy a tiny island, admiral level people supposedly have the durability to tank large city busting attacks from WB. If the admirals all have around the same durability, at least Akainu and Aokiji did, then he should be able to take the attack and keep fighting. that's if the black dragon can even get the shot off.

It is true acnologia has just mainly hype but its not surprising to imagine him tanking those meteors Fujitora summoned.

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Madara vs Fujitora

@waybig1010101 said:

with verse equalizer shouldn't madara be able to absorb Fujitora's abilities?

Absorbing gravity is not possible.

Unless you are some cosmic entity that feeds on space and time and what not. There is one such being in Marvel if I recall.

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Fujitora[One Piece] vs. Bluenote [Fairytail]

@Jinbeifan1 said:

@321zigzag1: technically even if Acnologia tried to fly up for a roar, Issho could just bring him back to the ground with his gravity attack or just send a meteor into his back and then keep spamming them lol

Gravity power is relative to the user. Acnologia is big and is likely to possess enormous strength. We may have not seen Fujitora's true gravitational amount but based on this I don't see how he can stop Acnologia.

His roar is implied to casually destroy a tiny island.

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Madara vs Fujitora

@taichokage said:

Hashirama sage power AND his Mokuton plus he didn't have the Rinnegan back in the day. It's looking like Madara at his maximum is as great a threat as the imperfect Jubi if not greater which is insane. There's a reason why he not Obito is apparently the final villain of this arc.

SM Rinnegan Madara. Perfect Body, Perfect Eyes. Of course this is assuming Kishimoto will show the true power of what boost sage mode will do for his eyes and of course any new combination with this Rinnegan.

Black Zetsu also went up on the Akatsuki tier.

@Obito said:

Yeah, Madara would not fall for Talk No Jutsu like Obito.

The last thing we need is for Madara himself to use Rinne Tensei that would be even worse than Tobi doing it.

@One_Piece_God said:

Naruto characters powers are getting ridiculous.

Recent chapter shows Madara back to 100% + Hashirama's sage powers.

Man Hashirama's power must truly be nigh-godly if nearly all the most powerful people in the series try to replicate/steal it.

What if Hashirama was alive as well at 100% he would literally own the battlefield. I use to say Itachi=God in Naruto but its now Hashirama=God.

I want the moon destroyed.

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Fujitora[One Piece] vs. Bluenote [Fairytail]

@Jinbeifan1 said:

bluenote could move a ship to the ground... Fujitora can send a meteor from space rocketing toward the ground. And he's faster. And stronger. And he's an admiral. He could beat the entire grimoire heart

Bluenote is a small fry compared to him. Very small fry.

Heck even Deva Path with half of nagato's chakra was able to blow away 3 giant summons away. Bluenote has yet to do that.

Bluenote is a real gravity user compared to Deva Path but his raw power is just inferior and even worse compared to Fujitora.

@eddz99 said:

@Jinbeifan1: @Kobra678: @TheNeutralOne:

So fuji wins the gravity match? :O

Read my statement above and yes its not really a contest.

Bluenote is just massively inferior in raw power in any way. Only his black hole matters except it is so god awful that it barely did anything.

@GhostRipple said:

Fujitora solos FT quite easily

Acnologia?

Post by 321zigzag1 (644 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Madara vs Fujitora

@TheNeutralOne said:

If madara is alive fujitora can pin him down and launch meteors at him.

That doesn't prevent him summoning Susanoo. That is the problem. Is Fujitora's gravity is so oppressive that not even Perfect Susanoo can stand up?

Anyway alive Madara seems about to attain greater power than the underpowered Juubito was with both Rinnegan and Sage Mode, assuming Kishimoto does this.

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