321zigzag1 (Level 9)

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Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Kyuubi Mode Naruto Vs True Bankai Renji, Rukia

@Whats_out_the_bag said:

I was going to wet my pants for a moment based on the title. Didn't know the weak friends were on kyuubi mode naruto's level. Was going to say what's going on.

Thought they got them a big ass power up. But nothing more than the mismatch. Proceed.

Well they have bankais and both are pretty nifty especially the latter or you were not fazed?

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Dream said:

@othus12: With two people still arguing in Hidan's favor, I'm not locking this just yet (even if I'm in favor of the opposition as well).

Meh. I was rather towards indifferent my problem was how fast people said Hidan would lose, but now I am more interested in how Hidan is weaker than CS1 Sasuke, Sound 4, all characters from Part 1. Sure its distracting from the main point in a way so I apologize on that part.

@Haiken said:

@321zigzag1: There is actually no need for such complex calculations and speedscaling stuff.. Toph could just stomp the ground and make a large hole where hidan is standing, and that would be it.. remember how she just stomped the ground when they infiltrated the drill in ba sing se.. Another option for toph is make a large tent-like boulders from the ground to seal hidan to where he is and bury him there..

There is also one option for hidan. that is leaping high so that toph will not be able to sense him, but hidan is a loud type and almost never stops boasting, and toph has that super hearing ability..

But the moment that Hidan tries to leap, toph will most likely sense it and seal him in the ground.. Toph did not sense aang since he is not in a leaping form when he went mid-air, it was airbending, and toph does not know about it..

Now I don't know where you got complex calculations from considering this isn't OBD or MVC to a lesser extent.

Anyhow I already stated from my first post in this thread I can understand why Toph can win and Hidan's offense is not spectacular here. I feel there is an underestimation of his speed here but I considered Toph's earth sense. And I did actually forget metal bending.

I feel though its possible to argue Hidan's experience with Shadow Sewing popping from the ground can compensate. That's just my take, I am sort of arguing on secondary points on feat accuracy.

@UltimateHero0406

said:

@321zigzag1: Exactly, Hidan had more help. Kakuzu is a beast. He's way better help in a break out fight than Shikamaru, and 2 fodder ninjas.

And also, it would be useful if he was fighting someone who couldn't jack up his circle by twitching a finger.

Depends where you are talking about. If you mean in the 2nd fight sure. IF you are talking about the first one where Asuma died well Hidan was mainly fighting against two Asuma and Shikamaru then that is another. Take in mind Kakuzu didn't do anything at first until Hidan lost his head.

@othus12 said:

why is this still going? toph wins. no contest.

My first reply in this post shows my further take but I already stated my position in my first post from this thread anyway so.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Yes there is, if we went by titles as a way to gauge power levels then Freiza would be the ultimate villain, Hulk would be the strongest there is, Kabuto should be well above Kage level BEFORE acquiring sage mode sense he beat Tsunade, arguably one of the most pathetic excuses for a Sannin or Hokage ever. Also if we went by title then Anbu>>>Jounin, but we know that's not true sense Kakashi and Itachi are the only noteworthy anbu, if we went by titles Yamato would be stronger than Gai sense he was a elite anbu and Gai has never been one. Not to mention the in Bleach Captains are meant to be>>>>everyone else but behold Renji and Rukia are already better than every captain who didn't receive special training like Byakuya and Kenpachi. At the very least better than Kensei and Rose. It's pointless, just like bounties in One Piece, Power levels in DBZ after the saiyan saga, the titles Captain in Bleach ect.

I don't know why you went on when I already did agree before hand.

@321zigzag1:

I wouldn't be surprised given that Asuma had already admitted Shikamaru was much smarter than he was and had constantly outwitted him, add in the fact that that he was nominated to be a chuunin maybe a month or so after becoming a genin at the chuunin exams, Temari also stated if he was not so lazy he could have becoming a jounin faster than she did. Also that when Asuma was resurrected with immortality and infinite chakara he was taken care of with mid diff by his squad once they worked up the guts to take him out. Asuma was just not impressive as a jounin and especially not an elite one, you are clinging to titles as a means of support for Asuma and Hidan being worthy fighters with no basis to back it up other than a meaningless title.

Neither did a lot of things in Naruto, like the limit on the chidori, Naruto and half his fights ect.

LOL Kisame would trash Hidan just like Itachi trashed Deidara.

Then show me because blitzing fodder is not impressive at all.

Nope. Intelligence and smarts don't automatically equal being stronger all the time otherwise. Also as for the Edo Tensei fight, it showed what we knew all along. Team 10 had more potential and as a team they surpassed Asuma. Shikamaru in particular showed more potential than Asuma since Part 1 but enough with Part 2 we are talking about PArt 1 where you stated to even consider Part 1 Shikamaru could even be better than Asuma.

If your point is correct then one of them should have been able to take on Asuma but they went as a team because they would lose one on one eventually sooner or later. Although Butterfly Chouji changed that after his emotional powerup.

Yes things don't make sense. Hello fiction. Hello real life.

Of course Kisame would trash Hidan overall but Asuma taking him on at least in taijutsu wise for a short time is an indication that shows his superiority to sound 4 which should be kind of obvious.

Why can't Asuma can't do better than those two fodder special jounins?

OF course though by your admission in this train of though when the sound jounin were chasing SHikamaru, Sakura, Naruto and Pakkun. SHikamaru should have been able to take care of those jounins quite better than Asuma did.

But nope instead they crapped their pants in chapter 118 and Shikamaru believe they would be annilihated and after his shadow ambush was running out of time in chakra Shikamaru figured he was going to die before he married and had a lazy life.

Asuma was already quite above chunins or below in part 1. Unless you are arguing CS1 Sasuke, Temari Shikamaru could have done the same.

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/119/9

@321zigzag1:

Too bad we don't know that he is capable of since every fight he is in he is in a team. And lol, why does being a taijutsu specialist mean he doesn't need help? He is a shinobi who works in squads, he needs as much help as any other shinobi. Not to mention he has no won a single fight even in a team.

I don't know and do not care, the evidence is on the paper, at the end of the day, Asuma has done nothing at all to put him within the rank of jounin. Asuma is a jounin because he is a character in the story with the purpose of having a squad 10 jounin leader. Unlike Kakashi who have no story of how he came to ranks, or how good he is, he showed little more than fodder material. The guy has nearly no showing. You are going by a title and nothing more, you have nothing to base it off of anyway.

You are the one said Asuma needs help. I said he is capable of fighting one on one. Being in teams and fighting alone are not always exclusive.

Then this debate is futile because you have the mindset of looking at his feats poor when anyone can look at any feats poor depending on relative context.

You were making a strict in-verse comparison. So unlike multiverse author's word play some more role. Not to mention by your logic CS1 Sasuke should do better against Kisame which is bonkers.

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Hahahaha!
Neji not even paying attention or having no reason to even move at full speed
was stopped by Hayate and the others, Hayate had already noticed before Neji
even moves. Lol how fast was he going, do you have a calc or evidence for the
speed you are going for?

.

Show
me, where it was said sakura was dodging via muscle movement and not speed.
Where it says Sasori was moving his puppets super fast as well.

Are you losing something mate?

Laughing doesn't change what I said. Neji didn't react. In fact that's how blitz or speed feats sometimes operates because speed feats are broad things.

What you now want calculations too? Let's go to OBD and later NBD together shall we on this? Although the latter hates calcs.

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/270/7

Reading Sasori's puppetry could have been more of an anime extension but it shows reading his attacks patterns regardless.

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

He
must have been if he got kicked and sat through an entire fight with Hidan and
Kakuzu before fighting again. Yes Kakashi must have been exhausted. However the
page I read had kakashi get up and block Hidan's assault... no good showing of
anything other than Hidan's mad swinging. Kakashi shook off Kakuzu's attack,
Hidan jumps at kakashi and Kakahsi parrys every one if Hidan's attacks. It
would be pointless for Kakashi with a kunai to attack Hidan like that because
while he would need to decapitate him while Hidan only needs a scratch and
Kakashi is done for. Kakashi was on the defensive.

But
yes he was tired from watching Hidan and Kakuzu fight after a kick.

It started with Azula and Hidan speed comparison but it has become into other things. However, this is a different thread. How about this, why don't you make a thread on what we discussed. Asuma vs those genins and those characters after all you made the claim.

In fact if I recall, you didn't even say why Asuma's or Hidan's or were bad. You just said they were bad because they were unimpressive but didn't really explain why. Then again by your admission Part 1 Shikamaru or CS Sasuke part can do better than Asuma against Hidan in part 2. Or at least I got out of here.

AS for this post.

Kakashi doesn't get that exhausted anymore if you are saying when he was exhausted after being kicked then anything can be interpreted as exhaustion. He was puzzled why Kakuzu wasn't dead but he wasn't exhausted.

We were debating why you think he was exhausted not why Kakashi defended himself so.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Because Asmua has no feats to say otherwise, you are using ABC logic for this, it doesn't work.

It depends on what you mean. You can't have speed without movement but at the same time there are exceptions. Let's say someone had an attack in which they needed to turn on a light bulb and unleash a light speed beam, I am like 2 feet away, the moment I see them reach for the switch I simply kick them in the chest. I don't need super speed for that. You are saying that Azula can't have dodged Toph's attacks without good speed, she can't have just used agility, I am telling you no significant speed was involved, it was just reacting to her obvious stances, it is memory and reaction, not speed, it does not mean speed was not involved, it simply was not a huge part of it, she didn't need good speed at all, just agility and good reactions that are superior to Toph's motions before bending. I tihnk the concept went over your head since we are going in circles with this.

Bottom line is, with this distance and terrain and that Hidan is in a 1V1 fight and has building level durability, he loses since all Toph needs to do is stomp the ground and open a fissure to crush Hidan in, or impale him with spikes, smash him with boulders, or metal bend his scythe. Toph has muscle reflex reaction time, she will know where hidan is at all times and can react and keep him form closing in, Hidan is not smart enough to figure out how to get past Toph's blindness like Aang did. Toph wins mid diff. It is not hard for Toph to incapacitate Hidan, skewering him with large rock spikes, or crushing him, or simply letting him fall into a fissure will be enough. OR trapping him with his own weapon with metal bending.

This is in-verse logic so it has to apply to an extent not to mention if we go by your way, it contradicts several things. Like I suppose then Part 1 Shikamaru should have been able to well against Hidan I suppose by your way of thinking yet Part 2 Shikamaru couldn't confront Hidan without a plan.

Speed matters if it there is enough difference to be exploited. You aren't wrong but they all play a role in a differentiating or varied wise. Hidan is quite faster than Azula and demonstrated more acrobats. While he lacks knowledge he has experience of evading things from the ground all of the sudden.

Oh that's fine I already acknowledged Hidan can lose that way. I just found it odd where people made it so easy.

Never saw anyone argue Asuma and Hidan are weaker than Part 1 Temari or CS1 Sasuke before. Strangest stance I ever seen. Last time I saw something similar was someone say Tsunade was weaker than Temari PArt because of lack of feats. (Before the 5 kage fight came along)

As for baseball, they do have speed training you know. Including bat velocity and bat swinging speed. Your baseball example usually works because the person in his experience can react to an extent and swing and the ball is next to him so speed doesn't usually matter as much here.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Because titles like Jounin, Captain, admiral ect. mean nothing after a while, just like power levels, bounties, and whatnot. Asuma is a jounin in title, nothing he has doen has put him on the scale of Gai or Kakashi, two other elite Jounin.

Yes titles don't mean much here all the time but there is no reason to believe otherwise.

Also its very fascinating that you believe you believe Asuma is weaker. Does that mean he is also weaker than PArt 1 Shikamaru too?

Do you not realize that doesn't make any sense either?

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Asuma even acknowledged the speed before blocking and was clearly breaking a sweat. He still wasn't blitzing Kisame, a guy faster than Hidan, and that is not saying much.

Yes because they were not that far from each other in Part 1 at least. They were all jounin or higher.

This is obvious. The fact Hidan could take on Kisame is much better than the other two special jounin.

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Lol you mean the two that were surrounding Shikamaru in part 1 that he basically assassinated?

No.

There were at least 9 ninjas. Asuma assassinated one in a blitz secretly then got the rest in a blitz.

Where did you get only two from? You must have forgotten there was a group chasing them.

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

That was clearly him by himself. He only worked as a team because he had no choice and wanted advantage and also wanted to ambush Akatsuki.
There comes a time when feats while most important in the context of in-verse logic you have to follow its hierarchy.

The fight started with everyone surprise attacking Hidan and them constantly working on a plan of attack, he didn't go in there alone, he had 3 people backing him up until the small part at the end. Not sure what you are trying to say in that second part.

Asuma being a taijutsu fighter doesn't always need help unless he needs it. In that one he felt he needed it.

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Yes because he has no feats to prove otherwise, you are going by titles I am going by what is shown, that is the difference here. I think my arguments holds more weight. AAlso most of the Rookies from part 1 were WELL above their level at the time, unless you believe the sound 4, Naruto vs Sasuke's fight, and the fight with Gaara were that of only Genin level ability

Yeah Gai, Kakashi, Asuma, Kurenai and Hayate stopped a distracted neji from killing Hinata, brilliant.

In this case I had no choice. Do you honestly believe Kishimoto would agree with you? However, I tried to show some feats here and there. But to be honest it makes utter no sense then ASuma to become a Jounin.

I never said that. The entire sasuke chase arc was to showcase the genin that they improved and showed chunin level of abilities or more. Gaara was likely Jounin and so was Kimimaro likely too by then

It was an example of speed regardless of whether you like it or not. Not to mention Neji had his Byakugan on at the time.

(Link to scanlation site removed) -Dream

If we follow your way of thinking we have to evaluate lot of things again. In Narutoverse logic Asuma is above them for obvious reasons. Not to mention those two special jounin are not stronger than Asuma because they lack showings too. In fact their poor showings are worse than Asuma's.

Yet they are better than Asuma? At least Asuma was keeping with Kisame and Hidan for a while.

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Except I was not talking about catching or hitting the ball, I was talking about moving out the way. Read the post again.

Sakura did not read Sasori's muscle movements or anything, all she was doing was running for her life and dodging incoming attack barley until Chiyo took over. Also Sasori's attacks had a large AoE and were a lot more predictable than Toph's bending.

Not really, Kakashi was simply parrying Hidan's attacks, and after he blocked kakuzu's attack

Kakashi even says he is pushing it and you can see he is exhausted.... Really, dude, this was emphasized, it's why they were getting worried, fighting them was costing a lot of energy, Hidan at full power was still only able to fight on par with a exhausted Kakashi. This is a tired argument because it's obvious Kakashi was tired. Hidan's speed is average at best.

Also manga is visual, if you can't plainly see he is exhausted just by looking then i dunno what to say, not everything needs to be spelled out:

Not in speed. all they need to do it cut his head off and he is done, in fact Asuma could have done that on their first encounter had it not been for Kakuzu.

You must have missed the part where Sakura was evading them and Chiyo was commenting on it even Sasori remarked on it if I recall. In fact it was supposed to be testament as part of her evasive skills she learned from Tsunade. Please reread that fight.

This is what occurred.

1. Kakuzu got his heart destroyed.

2. Kakahi got kicked away

3. Kakuzu unleashed his hearts

4. Hidan and Kakuzu fought. I am talking about this part. You think Kakashi was already exhausted by then now?

Then after the wind heart fire heart was released then hidan attacked Kakashi once more. The blur lines indicates measure of speed there too.

So you are saying Kakashi was tired by then?

Btw where did you read they were getting worried about his exhaustion etc.

He didn't look exhausted when Kakashi first clashed with Hidan before the wind heart that is obvious unless you are trying to argue Kakashi got exhausted after the kick.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Dodging requires some measure of speed. How else can you pull it off? You need to be fast enough. If you are too slow then that is that. So if speed wasn't a factor then Toph shouldn't have had a problem catching her.

I addressed this many times. Le tme make an example: a pitcher is about to throw a 100MPH fastball, you, being a experienced baseball player know the stance the pitcher takes before throwing, the moment the pitcher reels back for the windup you move to the side right BEFORE the pitcher throws. That would require speed no greater than a average person. it's the same thing that Azula did.

Also Kakashi was never exhausted nor panted in that fight.

He doesn't need to be panting, you clearly saw he exhausted a lot of energy, most mangakas don't put that much detail in their, it's kinda implied after he was panting from protecting the others, he is a ninja and works through that.

You misread what I said, I didn't say you say Azula was jounin level.

Wat? Please read the post right under this that you made.

By saying Hidan isn't much better than Azula you are pretty much implying Azula is near jounin level of speed which quite frankly I rarely see people push such arguments.

No I'm saying Hidan is not jounin level based on speed, you know that sad excuse for a jounin with the shades? Yeah is he really impressive? Was Genma, or hayate as well? No, don't bring a title up like it means anything. He is a S-Rank ninja because of his actions, this is like trying to say a certain character form One Piece is strong because of their bounty. And... did you really rip those emoticons from the Naruto forums...

Not a perfect example by the fact people have missed by swing too slow.

It's no different from sakura reading sasori's puppetry yet if she was too slow she would have been wounded much sooner.

You are forcing the panting issue. Kakashi did a raikiri blitz then got a kick. Then he fought Hidan. Yet he was already exhausted that quickly?

Hayate blitzed Genin Neji's attack you know. Sudden interception?

Also two special jounins also forced the SOund 4 into CS2 otherwise they would have lose. the same sound 4 who lost to the elite genin who were probably chunin at the point in ability.

Hidan is above all of them.

yet somehow Asuma is weaker than them and the 2 special jounin.

You can't just separate literally this and that you need all of them.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

@Dream said:

I can buy Avatar characters having some form of sonic speed in reactions as a legitimate case was shown a while back with Aang evading the beam attack of Combustion Man. But movement speed of that caliber and anything in hypersonic territory still pushes it.

I was referring to reaction speed/reflexes.

@321zigzag1:

Yeah by Akatsuki standards or elite jounin standards. So therefore....?
Your posts depend on Shikamaru and Asuma. Shikamaru used to be slow but in Part 2 he improved in speed. His shadow jutsu isn't that slow if it was able to catch Tobi.
Kakashi wasn't exhausted then. If he was he couldn't have done two raikiri's after. He was never panting the entire fight.

I'm pretty sure Kakashi just got done with a raikiri and protecting Ino and Choji from Kakuzu's attack. Shikamaru has NO credible speed feats, you say he got faster but we have no clue by how much. He is a tachtition, why would he be known for good speed with anything but jutsu?

Yes. Knowledge played a key role as I answered Spider earlier but you have to have the movements and agility to back it up. You cannot have one without the other.

You simply move before the attack happens, Toph must make the gestures before bending, Azula react to Toph GESTURES not her bending, something Hidan would have no knowledge of.

Ok the ambush worked partly as a distractiion point from the initial shadow jutsu which both ninjas' advanced senses picked up. Kunai was the result of the distraction, they both reacted to it easily though.
You need to read that chapter again. Hidan got trapped because Shikamaru already bound him. He used the sewing to bring the wires together.

My point was is that if that was enough of a distraction to get them then the ground itself attacking you should be more than Hidan has shown to react too. Also, can't Toph metal bend his scythe, rendering him useless?

That bender lightning is supersonic? Although that being you are talking more on reflex category I believe.
In that case I suppose I could bring the case of Zaku's airwaves being supersonic as so claimed and Genin Sasuke dodged it.
Temari in PArt 1 could react to sound waves as well.

It's not natural lightning but considering Iroh was able to react to such a thing and Zuko and Azula surpassing him by this point it should be close. Curse mark Sasuke from part 1>>Asuma, Temari is the same case. Hidan relies on immortality and Kakuzu and has no good speed feats to speak of, just because a feat was acted out from a earlier part does not mean everyone after that is superior. Asuma could barley even react to Kisame in their first meet and Kisame is supposed to be faster than Hidan. We have absolutely no progression of Asuma's skills from part 1 to part 2, so we can't just base his speed off of characters from part 1, especially characters that are superior to him. I don't doubt Asuma could beat Dosu, but then again Asuma is more of a planner and surprise attacker than a full on brawler, his entire team is based on teamwork and working together, Asuma has never really been in a one on one match, his best feat was giving a cut to Kisame's cheek when he was caught off guard. Tayuuya, curse seal Sasuke, and Temari from part 1 are more impressive than Asuma from any of his showing, I have no doubt they would beat him with mid difficulty.

That lightning feat. IT has been a source of controversy. Some say Iroh put him his arm then lightning went through him and he didn't seem to realize it until right after. I will say this he did seem bewildered.

Now now, why would Genin Sasuke or Temari being stronger than Asuma. Asuma is an elite jounin.

Barely react? He dodged fine actually after he got his arm shaved.

Asuma blitzed the sound fodder jounin ninja. Unless you are saying the genin can do the same.

That was clearly him by himself. He only worked as a team because he had no choice and wanted advantage and also wanted to ambush Akatsuki.

There comes a time when feats while most important in the context of in-verse logic you have to follow its hierarchy.

Now I see where this all comes from you think Asuma is weaker than Part 1 Genin or some of them.

Btw elite jounin easily intercepted Neji.

Also two special jounin who are weaker than ASuma managed to force Sound 4 into CS2 in order to win. The same Sound 4 who lost to the Genin.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1 said:

Not false, do you really think Asuma just forgot about his team despite his words? Shikamaru himself even admits that Asuma has to fight this guy while trying to protect the 3 of them, they are only chuunin, look at 4:22

I already addressed that Azula dodging Toph was not speed, Hidan is slow in general, he was tagged by almost everything thrown at him, he was only fighting on par with a exhausted kakashi. I never said Azula was Jousnin level at anything, please read the arguments again.

@Whats_out_the_bag: I don't think so but it is extremely fast, iroh reacted to natural lightning and Zuko should have surpassed him at this point, Azula was fighting on par with Zuko as well.

In that sense we are both correct in a sense. Asuma also admitted inferiority to both of them.

Asuma fighting Hidan with all out is in a way of protecting them. After Kakuzu wasn't attacking it was Hidan.

Protecting is a broad word after all.

Dodging requires some measure of speed. How else can you pull it off? You need to be fast enough. If you are too slow then that is that. So if speed wasn't a factor then Toph shouldn't have had a problem catching her.

Also Kakashi was never exhausted nor panted in that fight.

You misread what I said, I didn't say you say Azula was jounin level.

By saying Hidan isn't much better than Azula you are pretty much implying Azula is near jounin level of speed which quite frankly I rarely see people push such arguments.

@Kurohige said:

And all this was despite Asuma having to pay attention to keeping his team safe, keeping one eye on Kakuzu in case he decided to interfere, and having no knowledge until after he had one leg disabled by Hidan's curse so he couldn't move quickly. So basically, he's not super slow like Oonoki running on the ground carrying luggage or a typical genin, but he's relatively slow for a jounin but makes up for it with his curse, immortality, a giant scythe, taking advantage of ignorance of his abilities, sneak attacks, having Kakuzu as a distraction, and acrobatics. Nothing really better than Azula, Hidan also called himself the slowest member of the Akasuki.

Now that I am looking at your previous argument closer also this is false. If I recall Asuma told the other two keep on eye on them. He and Shikamaru kept full concentration on Hidan only. He wasn't keeping an eye on Kakuzu at all. Where did you get this from?

Also, argument on Azula on Hidan comparison depends on Hidan being slow but yet you have nothing on to support for Azula's speed.

This makes it invalid argument.

Hidan is slow by Akatsuki standards, it doesn't mean he is slow by Narutoverse standards.

Even fodder sound ninja jounin was able to blitz named main character Sakura when she was a genin or almost lop off genin Shikamaru's head before Asuma rescued him.

You have shown nothing to support Azula's speed yet you are implying indirectly she is near jounin level of speed. But the question is how?

Slow is relative.

@SpeedForceSpider

said:

@321zigzag1 said:

Not exactly. I did agree he had a decent amount of agility. However you're under the impression his speed is incredible. I can agree he is faster than the majority of the Narutoverse, but we have to still take into consideration the only people with decent speed feats are the top tiers.

Now I don't where you got that I said it was incredible. Considering I was going on a relative argument and I have said few times Hidan is slow by Akatsuki standards.

Depends on what you mean by "decent speed" because that is relative too.

But I will tell you casual faster than eye speed is something genin have been able to do.

@SpeedForceSpider said:

@321zigzag1 said:

More or less so. But still without knowledge, Hidan will still get grounded without knowing her abilities. It's because Azula has knowledge that she can utilize her agility and acrobatics. I am not really arguing for the fact that he cannot dodge it. I am arguing the fact that he won't know what's coming to him is all.

Whatever you say man.

Hidan didn't know what was coming to him from Asuma or Shikamaru yet he didn't have a problem. Considering the sewing was popping from the ground and stretching yet Hidan was able to figure it out.

So we agree that it needs both good.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Whats_out_the_bag said:

@Kurohige:

Isn't that lightning hypersonic.

Who knows to be honest but the higher it goes more outlier inconsistency it becomes.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

However it still doesn't answer the Azula question. We have to remember Hidan's movement speed was unimpressive by Akatsuki's standards. We are comparing two different verses.
You are basically saying Azula has jounin level of speed. Is this what we are trying to prove now?

No Hidan's movement speed is unimpressive at all. Did you read the parts in that post explaining that? Hidan was tagged by Shikamaru and Asuma multiple times, Hidan's only worthy speed feats are dodging Shikamaru's shadow jutsu, which is not known for it's speed at all, and fighting on par with a exhausted Kakashi.

Yeah by Akatsuki standards or elite jounin standards. So therefore....?

Your posts depend on Shikamaru and Asuma. Shikamaru used to be slow but in Part 2 he improved in speed. His shadow jutsu isn't that slow if it was able to catch Tobi.

Kakashi wasn't exhausted then. If he was he couldn't have done two raikiri's after. He was never panting the entire fight.

@Kurohige

said:

@321zigzag1:

Azula dodged Toph because Toph must make gestures and movements like any other bender and Azula, being an expert bender and trained since she was a child knows about this, all she needs to do is watch Toph's movement and stances and brace herself to move accordingly.What I am saying is that Azula avoiding Toph's bending is not a means for basing Toph's bending speed nor hidan's ability to react to it. Hidan AND Kakuzu were hit by an ambush of explosive Kunai from the trees and Hidan himself was caught in a trap set by Shikamaru that sprung from the ground, it would be similar with Toph, only instead of wires and paper bombs it would be earth, less predictable and faster.

Yes. Knowledge played a key role as I answered Spider earlier but you have to have the movements and agility to back it up. You cannot have one without the other.

Ok the ambush worked partly as a distractiion point from the initial shadow jutsu which both ninjas' advanced senses picked up. Kunai was the result of the distraction, they both reacted to it easily though.

You need to read that chapter again. Hidan got trapped because Shikamaru already bound him. He used the sewing to bring the wires together.

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Aang, Zuko, Amon, Azula and Kitara have not only reacted to Lightning of Firebenders, but they actually out moved it >_>

I have 2 feats alone of reacting after the Super Sonic Lightning hits. Iroh has also done the same as has Azula.

That bender lightning is supersonic? Although that being you are talking more on reflex category I believe.

In that case I suppose I could bring the case of Zaku's airwaves being supersonic as so claimed and Genin Sasuke dodged it.

Temari in PArt 1 could react to sound waves as well.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

And all this was despite Asuma having to pay attention to keeping his team safe, keeping one eye on Kakuzu in case he decided to interfere, and having no knowledge until after he had one leg disabled by Hidan's curse so he couldn't move quickly. So basically, he's not super slow like Oonoki running on the ground carrying luggage or a typical genin, but he's relatively slow for a jounin but makes up for it with his curse, immortality, a giant scythe, taking advantage of ignorance of his abilities, sneak attacks, having Kakuzu as a distraction, and acrobatics. Nothing really better than Azula, Hidan also called himself the slowest member of the Akasuki.

Now that I am looking at your previous argument closer also this is false. If I recall Asuma told the other two keep on eye on them. He and Shikamaru kept full concentration on Hidan only. He wasn't keeping an eye on Kakuzu at all. Where did you get this from?

Also, argument on Azula on Hidan comparison depends on Hidan being slow but yet you have nothing on to support for Azula's speed.

This makes it invalid argument.

Hidan is slow by Akatsuki standards, it doesn't mean he is slow by Narutoverse standards.

Even fodder sound ninja jounin was able to blitz named main character Sakura when she was a genin or almost lop off genin Shikamaru's head before Asuma rescued him.

You have shown nothing to support Azula's speed yet you are implying indirectly she is near jounin level of speed. But the question is how?

Slow is relative.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@SpeedForceSpider said:

@321zigzag1 said:

Sorry to say but who cares in all honesty? As I recall I have addressed SaladKing's points already. The arguments for Hidan are utterly unimpressive. Him having a decent amount of agility doesn't change the outcome by much.

Oh I don't know. Azula only lives in a verse where she has knowledge of earth bending. That pretty much speaks for itself.

You may not care but you are not everyone however.

That's because you have the impression Hidan is slow which is fine but slow for one universe isn't the same another. IT's relative. Hidan is still faster than majority in Narutoverse anyway.

Azula has knowledge but she also had the agility and acrobatics skills to back it up.

You cannot have one without the other. This is obvious.

@katanalauncher said:

@Whats_out_the_bag said:

What's stopping Toph from simply stomping her feet and trapping him in the ground?

The fact that Hidan can chop her head in ten different pieces in that time?

So blitz from 10 yards in distance?

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

@Saladking said:

@Kurohige:

Too bad its not that easy for her to do, if it was she would have soloed Azula

She probably needs her opponents to stand still which a bloodlusted Hidan won't do.

Azula was an expert bender with knowledge of everyone on Aang's team by that point, she knew about Toph and earthbending in general so she knew how to avoid and counter her bending. Azula also took on Aang, Zuko, Katara, Iroh, and Sokka, some of them at the same time, so I don't see how Toph being bested by a more experienced bender who could solo nearly the whole team on their first encounter is something to discredit her for. No she does not need he opponent to stand still, Aang was literally zooming around he using his air bending and the moment he feet touched the ground she attacked where he was, it was only because he messed with her senses by flying could he get past her bending and knock her out of the ring. By the end of the series she also has metal bending so could she not just bend the metal in Hidan's scythe and trap him with that? Hidan is always bloodlusted, that was why Kakuzu had to bail him out most of the time, bloodlusted just means you are out to kill your opponent, it does not mean you lose all personality and go into a fit of rage attacking the opponent like many seem to think, that is called being in-raged. Whitebeard was bloodlusted when he fought Akainu but he didn't go firing off quakes at Luffy or his crew in an attempt to hit all the navy soldiers and Akainu, same thing here. Lol Hidan and Kakuzu were both tagged by explosive kunai being thrown at them and needed their defenses for it, I'm sure someone bending the earth would catch Hidan off guard. Hell, Considering Hidan's fighting style, his speed stat is somewhat less important. Reactions and deception is generally how he draws blood. Also, throwing his scythe he barely grazed Asuma and striking with his stake he could't do any damage to Shikamaru either. Add in the fact his Curse is prep-heavy and yeah, his attack speed is slow, but his overall agility isn't any worse than anyone elses.

@321zigzag1:

Yes Hidan is faster but I guess the questions of speed difference is different for people.

Hidan is agile and has great melee speed but his movement speed is pretty unimpressive, he has shown more physical strength than speed as shown when he leaped at kakashi, Shikamaru caught his off guard with a straight up punch and you are supposed to have me believe he will notice the ground he is standing on to suddenly attack him and he will be able to avoid it?

But I am pretty sure Hidan is quite faster than Azula not to mention he kept up with Kakash in taijutsu.

Kakashi had a kunai, Hidan had immortality and curse that required a scratch to activate, if anything if Kakashi did anything but be on the defensive, he'd be an idiot. Furthermore, given Hidan's superior range with the scythe, and the risk of death from losing a drop of blood, not putting 100% into defense would've been idiocy on Kakashi's end as well. It has nothing to do with speed, it has to do with the fact that anything Kakashi did offensively would be futile considering even if he stabbed Hidan a million times, it wouldn't do anything(the guy stabs himself every fight without problems) and the risk of damage defensively was increased 100fold from the curse. Also consider that despite this, Hidan still had to sneak up from behind while Kakashi was in midair(and use Kakuzu's Fuuton Mask/heart help the other time) Take those factors away and Kakashi would've blitzed Hidan to kingdom come.

Hidan's feats are largely overblown because people ignore/forget/miss the details and context. Hidan's best skill is his precise acrobatic maneuvering to avoid precision attacks. However, he's only really used it to avoid Shikamaru's shadow needles, which have never been noted to be particularly fast(people are constantly dodging his shadows when he doesn't sneak up on them) and he's never used it to avoid a large attack likeToph's tidal waves of earth. He didn't even come out successful in his direct clashes with Asuma. The first time they clashed, Asuma destroyed his weapon. The second time, he distracted Asuma with another weapon, which Asuma destroyed and in turn, got off one scratch, which Asuma would've been more careful about had he known about the curse and wouldn't have meant anything had he not had the curse. Blocking three shurikens would be impressive if we didn't constantly see people constantly blocking attacks like that(like Haku blocking Zabuza's shuriken with his needles) And all this was despite Asuma having to pay attention to keeping his team safe, keeping one eye on Kakuzu in case he decided to interfere, and having no knowledge until after he had one leg disabled by Hidan's curse so he couldn't move quickly. So basically, he's not super slow like Oonoki running on the ground carrying luggage or a typical genin, but he's relatively slow for a jounin but makes up for it with his curse, immortality, a giant scythe, taking advantage of ignorance of his abilities, sneak attacks, having Kakuzu as a distraction, and acrobatics. Nothing really better than Azula, Hidan also called himself the slowest member of the Akasuki.

Kakashi was also being stalked by Hidan and 2 of Kakuzu's masks and even with a mere kunai he held his own. He even escaped the "death trap" were Kakuzu makes good use of Hidans immortality by using Masks to attack the whole area while Hidan keeps Kakashi busy. I would also like to add that hidan was fighting with a tired Kakashi after he had used his lightning blade multiple times and protected his team from Kakuzu's attack.

Pretty good points although I may look at them later again.

However it still doesn't answer the Azula question. We have to remember Hidan's movement speed was unimpressive by Akatsuki's standards. We are comparing two different verses.

You are basically saying Azula has jounin level of speed. Is this what we are trying to prove now?

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Sternritter "V" vs. Shukuro Tsukishima

@taichokage said:

I was talking about Stern Ritter V not Tsukishima in regards to the Quincy arrows.

Yes I apologize for that mistake. I don't know how I messed that up.

I suppose for plot reasons, it's likely individual preference and yes CIS too

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Sternritter "V" vs. Shukuro Tsukishima

Fullbringer not a Quincy.

I just have a feeling V's offense is something not too spectacular. I could be wrong.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Sternritter "V" vs. Shukuro Tsukishima

At least V didn't explain his powers like an idiot unlike many Bleach characters.

Does he have the means to kill Shukuro though?

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

Hidan is faster, but given the distance and his building level durability all Toph needs to do is flex and put him in the ground. Hidan is best used in combo matches, not one on one fights, especially against ranged fighters.

Yes Hidan is faster but I guess the questions of speed difference is different for people.

But I am pretty sure Hidan is quite faster than Azula not to mention he kept up with Kakash in taijutsu.

He schooled both Asuma and Shikamaru's shadow sewing at the same time though.

Also the distance is 10 yards.

Although yes Toph has the means to bury to Hidan and incapacitate him but I don't see why some people here make it sound it will be easier than Azula

@UltimateHero0406 said:

@321zigzag1: What are you talking about?

Asuma rolled him pretty hard lol Literally, as in head rolling.

Kakuzu had to put him back together.

And his sacrifice jutsu is worthless without cover as we saw recently.

Sure Asuma beheaded him.

After he suffered 3rd degree burns although Hidan didn't.

After he was pierced via voodoo through his left knee that he couldn't walk properly.

After Shikamaru barely managed to hold him with Shadow Sewing and force him out of his Ritual circle.

After Hidan managed to cut Asuma despite Shikamaru's shadow stitching assistance.

Long After Asuma admitted both Hidan and Kakuzu were stronger than him and that he needed Shikamaru to be on the advantage although that failed too.

His ritual is nearly useless on one on one but the distance is 10 yards.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Pyron vs Satan

@othus12 said:

This is Satan from where?

obviously from dragon ball

Solos with mustache.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

Also how the heck is Hidan being caught "Easily" when she failed to do with Azula in that short skirmish?

Nobody addressed this.

Granted Dai Li Agents interfered but Toph had Aang and Azula lacked firebending at the time.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@othus12 said:

@Saladking said:

@othus12:

Hidan has better speed and durability, I don't see how Toph's "stats" are better

speed? any calcs to back that up?

It's a no brainer why Hidan has better speed and durability.

Do you see Toph possess any significant human durability or movement?

I suppose one could argue her reaction augmented by earth sense is better.

@SpeedForceSpider said:

OH NO! Why would I make an argument if the majority decided on a victor already? Are you on something?

It's called a debate. I have no problem with Toph winning. But most of the arguments for Toph seem to rely on Hidan being blatantly useless.

Which is partly correct.

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