321zigzag1 (Level 9)

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Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@SpeedForceSpider said:

@321zigzag1 said:

Sorry to say but who cares in all honesty? As I recall I have addressed SaladKing's points already. The arguments for Hidan are utterly unimpressive. Him having a decent amount of agility doesn't change the outcome by much.

Oh I don't know. Azula only lives in a verse where she has knowledge of earth bending. That pretty much speaks for itself.

You may not care but you are not everyone however.

That's because you have the impression Hidan is slow which is fine but slow for one universe isn't the same another. IT's relative. Hidan is still faster than majority in Narutoverse anyway.

Azula has knowledge but she also had the agility and acrobatics skills to back it up.

You cannot have one without the other. This is obvious.

@katanalauncher said:

@Whats_out_the_bag said:

What's stopping Toph from simply stomping her feet and trapping him in the ground?

The fact that Hidan can chop her head in ten different pieces in that time?

So blitz from 10 yards in distance?

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

@Saladking said:

@Kurohige:

Too bad its not that easy for her to do, if it was she would have soloed Azula

She probably needs her opponents to stand still which a bloodlusted Hidan won't do.

Azula was an expert bender with knowledge of everyone on Aang's team by that point, she knew about Toph and earthbending in general so she knew how to avoid and counter her bending. Azula also took on Aang, Zuko, Katara, Iroh, and Sokka, some of them at the same time, so I don't see how Toph being bested by a more experienced bender who could solo nearly the whole team on their first encounter is something to discredit her for. No she does not need he opponent to stand still, Aang was literally zooming around he using his air bending and the moment he feet touched the ground she attacked where he was, it was only because he messed with her senses by flying could he get past her bending and knock her out of the ring. By the end of the series she also has metal bending so could she not just bend the metal in Hidan's scythe and trap him with that? Hidan is always bloodlusted, that was why Kakuzu had to bail him out most of the time, bloodlusted just means you are out to kill your opponent, it does not mean you lose all personality and go into a fit of rage attacking the opponent like many seem to think, that is called being in-raged. Whitebeard was bloodlusted when he fought Akainu but he didn't go firing off quakes at Luffy or his crew in an attempt to hit all the navy soldiers and Akainu, same thing here. Lol Hidan and Kakuzu were both tagged by explosive kunai being thrown at them and needed their defenses for it, I'm sure someone bending the earth would catch Hidan off guard. Hell, Considering Hidan's fighting style, his speed stat is somewhat less important. Reactions and deception is generally how he draws blood. Also, throwing his scythe he barely grazed Asuma and striking with his stake he could't do any damage to Shikamaru either. Add in the fact his Curse is prep-heavy and yeah, his attack speed is slow, but his overall agility isn't any worse than anyone elses.

@321zigzag1:

Yes Hidan is faster but I guess the questions of speed difference is different for people.

Hidan is agile and has great melee speed but his movement speed is pretty unimpressive, he has shown more physical strength than speed as shown when he leaped at kakashi, Shikamaru caught his off guard with a straight up punch and you are supposed to have me believe he will notice the ground he is standing on to suddenly attack him and he will be able to avoid it?

But I am pretty sure Hidan is quite faster than Azula not to mention he kept up with Kakash in taijutsu.

Kakashi had a kunai, Hidan had immortality and curse that required a scratch to activate, if anything if Kakashi did anything but be on the defensive, he'd be an idiot. Furthermore, given Hidan's superior range with the scythe, and the risk of death from losing a drop of blood, not putting 100% into defense would've been idiocy on Kakashi's end as well. It has nothing to do with speed, it has to do with the fact that anything Kakashi did offensively would be futile considering even if he stabbed Hidan a million times, it wouldn't do anything(the guy stabs himself every fight without problems) and the risk of damage defensively was increased 100fold from the curse. Also consider that despite this, Hidan still had to sneak up from behind while Kakashi was in midair(and use Kakuzu's Fuuton Mask/heart help the other time) Take those factors away and Kakashi would've blitzed Hidan to kingdom come.

Hidan's feats are largely overblown because people ignore/forget/miss the details and context. Hidan's best skill is his precise acrobatic maneuvering to avoid precision attacks. However, he's only really used it to avoid Shikamaru's shadow needles, which have never been noted to be particularly fast(people are constantly dodging his shadows when he doesn't sneak up on them) and he's never used it to avoid a large attack likeToph's tidal waves of earth. He didn't even come out successful in his direct clashes with Asuma. The first time they clashed, Asuma destroyed his weapon. The second time, he distracted Asuma with another weapon, which Asuma destroyed and in turn, got off one scratch, which Asuma would've been more careful about had he known about the curse and wouldn't have meant anything had he not had the curse. Blocking three shurikens would be impressive if we didn't constantly see people constantly blocking attacks like that(like Haku blocking Zabuza's shuriken with his needles) And all this was despite Asuma having to pay attention to keeping his team safe, keeping one eye on Kakuzu in case he decided to interfere, and having no knowledge until after he had one leg disabled by Hidan's curse so he couldn't move quickly. So basically, he's not super slow like Oonoki running on the ground carrying luggage or a typical genin, but he's relatively slow for a jounin but makes up for it with his curse, immortality, a giant scythe, taking advantage of ignorance of his abilities, sneak attacks, having Kakuzu as a distraction, and acrobatics. Nothing really better than Azula, Hidan also called himself the slowest member of the Akasuki.

Kakashi was also being stalked by Hidan and 2 of Kakuzu's masks and even with a mere kunai he held his own. He even escaped the "death trap" were Kakuzu makes good use of Hidans immortality by using Masks to attack the whole area while Hidan keeps Kakashi busy. I would also like to add that hidan was fighting with a tired Kakashi after he had used his lightning blade multiple times and protected his team from Kakuzu's attack.

Pretty good points although I may look at them later again.

However it still doesn't answer the Azula question. We have to remember Hidan's movement speed was unimpressive by Akatsuki's standards. We are comparing two different verses.

You are basically saying Azula has jounin level of speed. Is this what we are trying to prove now?

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Sternritter "V" vs. Shukuro Tsukishima

@taichokage said:

I was talking about Stern Ritter V not Tsukishima in regards to the Quincy arrows.

Yes I apologize for that mistake. I don't know how I messed that up.

I suppose for plot reasons, it's likely individual preference and yes CIS too

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Sternritter "V" vs. Shukuro Tsukishima

Fullbringer not a Quincy.

I just have a feeling V's offense is something not too spectacular. I could be wrong.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Sternritter "V" vs. Shukuro Tsukishima

At least V didn't explain his powers like an idiot unlike many Bleach characters.

Does he have the means to kill Shukuro though?

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

Hidan is faster, but given the distance and his building level durability all Toph needs to do is flex and put him in the ground. Hidan is best used in combo matches, not one on one fights, especially against ranged fighters.

Yes Hidan is faster but I guess the questions of speed difference is different for people.

But I am pretty sure Hidan is quite faster than Azula not to mention he kept up with Kakash in taijutsu.

He schooled both Asuma and Shikamaru's shadow sewing at the same time though.

Also the distance is 10 yards.

Although yes Toph has the means to bury to Hidan and incapacitate him but I don't see why some people here make it sound it will be easier than Azula

@UltimateHero0406 said:

@321zigzag1: What are you talking about?

Asuma rolled him pretty hard lol Literally, as in head rolling.

Kakuzu had to put him back together.

And his sacrifice jutsu is worthless without cover as we saw recently.

Sure Asuma beheaded him.

After he suffered 3rd degree burns although Hidan didn't.

After he was pierced via voodoo through his left knee that he couldn't walk properly.

After Shikamaru barely managed to hold him with Shadow Sewing and force him out of his Ritual circle.

After Hidan managed to cut Asuma despite Shikamaru's shadow stitching assistance.

Long After Asuma admitted both Hidan and Kakuzu were stronger than him and that he needed Shikamaru to be on the advantage although that failed too.

His ritual is nearly useless on one on one but the distance is 10 yards.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Pyron vs Satan

@othus12 said:

This is Satan from where?

obviously from dragon ball

Solos with mustache.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

Also how the heck is Hidan being caught "Easily" when she failed to do with Azula in that short skirmish?

Nobody addressed this.

Granted Dai Li Agents interfered but Toph had Aang and Azula lacked firebending at the time.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@othus12 said:

@Saladking said:

@othus12:

Hidan has better speed and durability, I don't see how Toph's "stats" are better

speed? any calcs to back that up?

It's a no brainer why Hidan has better speed and durability.

Do you see Toph possess any significant human durability or movement?

I suppose one could argue her reaction augmented by earth sense is better.

@SpeedForceSpider said:

OH NO! Why would I make an argument if the majority decided on a victor already? Are you on something?

It's called a debate. I have no problem with Toph winning. But most of the arguments for Toph seem to rely on Hidan being blatantly useless.

Which is partly correct.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@UltimateHero0406 said:

I still fail to see how that guy made the Akatsuki. He basically Ino with a sythe lol

Stronger than Asuma.

Kept up with Kakashi in taijutsu and in speed at least during the immortals arc. (Kakashi likely improved in speed by now)

Pretty durable guy and his body doesn't follow the basic rules of human anatomy.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Pyron vs Satan

@hitsusatsu11 said:

What is pyrons true form? Some ppl have said he's galaxy level, in which case id have no problem giving him an easy win, some have said he's only planet +, which would make it a much tougher fight.

His true form is supposed to the one where he is quite bigger than milky way galaxy.

planet+ is based on his darkstalkers ending where he turned earth into of his planet ring around his finger

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@othus12 said:

toph wins. her stats are wayy too much for hidan to handle. btw his character doesnt help either. she can seal his movements with ease and its not like he is gonna break way from a bed of solid rock.

@Dream said:

Bloodlusted, then Hidan's likely to get massacred here since Toph would likely spam her Earthbending and the Jashin fanatic isn't so potent at far distances with his attacks.

@Haiken

said:

@GeneralVan: it would be really hard to blitz toph due to her sensing ability.. remember that one kick in the ground is all it needs to capture an enemy with toph.. while in character, Hidan does not move around much early, so that would be easy for toph, specially since Hidan does not have precog and toph does not do any seal to "warn" the enemy if she attacks..

Didn't Toph fail to contain Azula for a short period of time before two Dai Li Agents appeared?

And I am pretty sure Hidan is much faster and more acrobatic than Azula was who was pretty acrobatic herself.

Aside from the fact Hidan's offense isn't very good here, as long Toph defends herself with rock armor solidly, I fail to see Toph successfully catching Hidan that easily.

Hidan also is less predictable with his scythe attack attached with the cable. Less orthodox and straight forward.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Pyron vs Satan

This is Satan from where?

Pyron's true power is technically unknown. We do know his real size is quite bigger than Milky Way Galaxy.

Which seems to suggest Galaxy+ in destructive power at least.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Pain vs Zommari

@GIRUGAMESH said:

Zommari is annihilated, assuming they're in character.

So what's your take on Zommari's speed and amor on Pain?

@luthluth said:

@phantomrant: Zommari will get repeled but not impaled. Arrancars have steel skin called Hierro which protects them from blunt attacks. Pain hasnt shown the ability to slash steel or any thing near as hard, hes rod was broken by Kakashi who has slightly superhuman strength. It is very likely Zommari will incapacitate the deva path, since Nagato has no knowledge of hes opponent and Zommari can spam Brujerias eyes in all directions, which controls the body part it hits.

Rods are very sharp. They naturally pierced through sage mode enhanced skin which can easily take sharp piercing rocks with ease even in incomplete state.

Kakashi didn't break it, that was Sage Naruto if I recall and KAkashi is superhuman not slightly. Genin have better than peak human leg strength to do what they do.

However, judging by this post and the previous two, and of course the false tree level durability and 12 year old logic, which are completely not supported in the manga.

Makes it appear you have an unfair belief towards Naruto feats. It's not hard to take low end feats and try to justify it as a 100% fact, it can be done for any series. Comics for example too or even DBZ.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Pain vs Zommari

@UltimateHero0406 said:

Pain could get the drop on Zommari if all the bodies make an effective first strike. But if Zommari releases, they're honestly doomed.

@phantomrant said:

thus the Pains skewer him with their rods.

giggity

Zommari may be stupid but with six bodies he may go all out amor all sides. That being he isn't the most durable if I recall. His released lower body is durable but not his main chest and upward.

@luthluth said:

@phantomrant:

They get surprised, blitzed and one shoted by 12 year olds and tree level attacks yet you say they have far superior reaction feats lol.

This part of the post is being dishonest. If you are going to bring up Naraka's situation, you have to remember more things for greater accuracy.

Especially with the tree level:

Sage Rasengans, sage kicks, kn6 bombs are tree level now? I guess Zommari's slashes can't even scratch the ground then in comparison. Which also shows you ignored what I rebutted to yours earlier when I provided examples.

As for surprised, blitzed, 12 year old segment. You make it sound you only read Naraka Path vs Konohamaru and called it the entire feat list of Pain.

Konohamaru succeeded with the classic shadow clone feint which everyone falls for but he is also the weakest path. Other Paths have shown superior feats in all areas even if you take the low ender out.

Konohamaru isn't Sage Naruto or Kakashi or close to them. The whole chapter was to hype up Konohamaru's growth against the weakest Path.

Technically before Konohamaru pulled a feint, he or the clone was actually blitzed by the Naraka Path before the clone went poof. Did you remember that? The same path who took down other nameless jounins and chunins including Ebisu.

Also Phantomrant you also should be more specific with Pain's reaction feats. You and he are just running circles with mainly statements although he is bringing up actual scans.

Comes down to what you think with FRS feat and sonido. After Images in Zommari's case are more of a special type of case I believe.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Pain vs Zommari

@luthluth said:

@321zigzag1: The Nakara path was healed by the king of hell just like the Asura path

Nope if it was we would have seen it. We never saw that. What happened then after is unknown. We both not all bodies have similar durability but most of them tanked blunt sage attacks.

Asura Path is likely the most durable to an extent as raikiri failed to cut him even when he was heavily damaged.

Some have argued Deva Path though due to kn6 bijuu bomb.

@taichokage

said:

The Deva still had legs and a torso. Given that the paths are inanimate, their speed shouldn't be mitigated by reaching their "limit". They're zombies essentially.

Body damage hindering its effectiveness. Think of it as robots receiving enough damage that it affects its performance. Its a minor inconsistency in a way after dodging the FRS feat (the infamous FRS feat) although after shinra Tensei failed, Deva Path did actually collapse to his knees in that chapter before Naruto was thrown with the rasengan.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Pain vs Zommari

@luthluth said:

@phantomrant: Wow are you serious?! The Naraku Path got caught off guard and one shoted by a 12 year old. FAR Lessar bleach characters have are capable of so much more its ridiculous. Zommari was shown and stated to be the fastest in the Espada, he can make 5 solid clones of himself with speed but thats only " Bleach-exclusive".

And the next time we see Naraka Path, he was fine. The mini rasengan didn't do anything to him. He was defeated by double senjutsu rasengan. Same with Animal Path.

As for Deva Path, I call it damage cumulation. That body reached its limit. And what was the point of the Gillian feat? It has no connection here.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Pain vs Zommari

@taichokage said:

I hope you aren't indicating that Pain is near or greater than Zommari's speed. He couldn't avoid Naruto within 5 seconds.

One explanation I saw was that Deva Path by then "was exhausted and drained" from Nagato first. Plus the body was at its limit.

@luthluth said:

@hitsusatsu11: Zommari is fast enough to make solid clones of himself they even bleed after getting attacked. He has much better stats than the pain bodies who break apart from tree and wall level attacks. Zommari uses hax and gains control of the bodies

Zommari isn't an offensive destructive type.

Anyway tanking senjutsu enhanced punches and kicks are wall and tree level? Sage Rasengans are wall and tree level?

There is concentrated damage.

If Zommari wins its because of his unique hax. I say though Pain overall is quite a stronger character.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Erza Scarlet vs Rukia Kuchiki

@Haiken said:

Actually, if we put this at powerscaling with Mirajane.. Erza would be = Rukia or Erza just a bit below Rukia..

If we think about it, Mira should atleast be able to keep up with Rukia and send blasts that would probably be able to knock her off.. But Erza is shown as someone stronger or on par with Mira..

What is this all based on?

Also Erza is a close combatant. That's suicide against Rukia's shikai.

Unless someone wants to gauge Erza's strongest special armor.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Marco vs Ulquiorra

What was Marco's strongest destructive output?

Just a re@Haiken said:

@LHWKnight: I don't see LHW killing an Omni, LHW couldn't even scratch Tokimi at the time.. And the Chousins are far below EGD.. EGD seals omnipotents in a single slash with Shining trapezohedron, He actually imprisoned the creator of the Omniverse in their world.. We are far off topic now.. haha

Off topic but we also reached to the point where "omniverse" or "Omni" has relative perks behind it. All because writers don't think the same.

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