321zigzag1 (Level 4)

@GIRUGAMESH said:

Accusing me of using the no limits fallacy suggested that I thought that Barragan's power could erase anything, which is why I was annoyed (since Stark really isn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of things).

Fair enough, I accept that some things take longer to erase than others, but the fact remains that they will still be erased.

Sorry, go and check the manga, I really cannot be bothered to go get more scans to prove something that I know to be true. It's the chapter where Stark has released his wolves against the 2 vizards, and they claim that the wolves are the manifestations of ceros. Stark corrects them, saying that they are not ceros, as ceros would not be able to inflict fatal injuries against opponents as tough as them.

And no, it's not a stalemate, as I have said. Stark will not be able to evade Barragan forever, as with a casual respira he was able to tag Soi Fon, who has been implied throughout the series to be one of the fastest (if not the fastest) captains. Again, as I have noted, the 2 vizards were keeping up with Stark ok even before they pulled out their masks. He's fast, sure, but he's not in some completely different league of speed.

If anyone still wants to discuss this, have fun, I really cannot be bothered to go over something like this, especially when it has been considered before.

You had the right to be annoyed although. No one likes being accused regardless of being true or false. But that is my mistake if you weren't invoking fallacy. Your opinion on Starrk. I see now a bit more why you said things for you did.

Of course.

Unless someone has a history of rejecting the obvious or etc there is no reason to just brush it off. But you are probably ust getting tired of doing so which is understandable.

You be surprised how people treat Starrk's speed. There are those who its fast as teleportation (relative in truth) to that being powerscaled to SHunsui. Its a bit of a A>B>C logic in speed. VIzards did keep up when Starrk wasn't serious. When he got serious he literally surprised them with speed with a vanish. Your statement also relies on Soifon's shunpo. Here is the thing though not everyone treats her the fastest either. Even I am skeptical on that to a bit.

Repetition is common in these types of things. I have been frustrated by having to repeat myself but I have committed the same errors before.

@GIRUGAMESH said:

@phantomrant said:

Respira won't tag Naruto? So you're suggesting that Naruto's current speed is considerably above Bleach captain-level?

A little bit of that explosion will kill him? Bull. He tanked JR at point-blank, with Soi Fon and the kido vizored questioning how it was even possible that he survived. Sure it would damage him, but it's not as if he's going to just be destroyed if he gets caught on the edge of the explosion. Plus I think you are overestimating Naruto's ability to spam TBBs, he's never shown that capability.

Define Captain level speed. As for BM Naruto's speed depends who you talk to. Most lean to massively hypersonic somewhere starting low two digits in the mid 10s to above. But that's if you care about calculations. My question is can any captain replicate what BM Naruto did.

I asked you then and I will ask you again with this, how are you comparing her bankai to a multi mountain buster. Potency? Destructiveness? If hers is better how so?

He has spammed them against Juubi 1st form.

@GIRUGAMESH said:

HAHAHA. Ahem. Sorry, but you're getting way ahead of yourself. I am not going anywhere close to it. If I said he could erase an attack from SSJG Goku? Of course. If it was a full power attack from the Juubi? Yes. But Stark? Well, unless you want to suggest that his ceros are way beyond Soi Fon's bankai (they're not, by the way, going by everything that has been suggested), yes, they will be erased too.

...go back and watch the fight, he erased the barriers just fine. Don't forget, he was toying with them the whole time. As soon as got pissed the barriers were like nothing to him, just as he is pissed with Stark in this fight. Besides, Stark's ceros have been shown to be a widespread fire, not concentrated into a single spot. If you can show me a scan suggesting otherwise then great, but until then, Stark's ceros get erased just like everything else. Barragan has never shown to tire using the ability, he could release it again and again. Stark would not be able to continuously repel his attacks forever.

Stark himself noted that his ceros wouldn't even be able to inflict fatal injuries on the people he was fighting (the 2 vizards and Shunsui). And yet the kido vizored, who was on the same level as them, was stunned that anyone could survive Soi Fon's bankai (it was even noted to have damaged his best barrier):

Soi Fon's bankai is clearly much stronger than Stark's ceros, and yet Barragan didn't even take it seriously. The only reason he was hit at all the second time around is because he totally underestimated them and was too busy laughing his ass off at their efforts. The thing is, you are applying Barragan when he was toying with them to an angry Barragan. When he was pissed, his power was tearing through kidos.

Barragan not giving two craps:

And Barragan giving several craps:

The vizored had to don his mask just for his barrier to give any delay at all.

THe way you described it made it sound like it was an instant snap that's why I said "no limits fallacy" You made it sound like that single wave was enough, pardon me if I misunderstood but the way you argued it, made it sound like that.

Where did Stark say that?

So then there is a good chance to be a stalemate if we go by what you said as long Sarrk just keeps fleeing about.

Your VIzard statement still lends credibility what I said, respire ages things very quickly but it will take a bit longer or even more depending on the matter encounters.

@taichokage said:

We've yet to see the bankai of either captain and thus, their greatest assets, but as it stands, Hashirama and Madaa should take this soundly. Even with bankai I have doubts that it would be enough. The only possible way I see team Bleach winning is if Shunsui pulled off kageoni well.

Wasn't Shunsui's bankai hyped up to be something dangerous?

Ceros can be aged its just the more dense and bigger it is the longer it takes. Aging is still very fast but enough difference in high speed level.

Same concept with Kido just like what occurred in Haachi's fight

@ChromeDisaster said:

@GIRUGAMESH: Looking back on your post, I understand where your coming from. But I just find it hard to believe that he can age a cero. That just seems and sounds odd for some reason.

Ceros can be aged its just the more dense and bigger it is the longer it takes. Aging is still very fast but enough difference in high speed level. However you and I both know Starrk deals with spamming.

My problem is that Respira seems to be hyped up like some godlike instant deletion by a snap which it clearly isn't. there clearly is a timeframe even if short.

@DBZ_universe said:

Well Starrk can't get close to Barragan that's for sure.

But that's his style long range spam.

But its still high difficulty if Starrk wins I believe, respire is tough to overwhelm even with casual city block+ wolves and cero spam

@GIRUGAMESH said:

@321zigzag1 said:

Does the wolves have to bite to explode?

Its not farfetched that incredible number of ceros would soak up respire.

Actually, yes it is. There was apparently no limit to it, and Barragan's respiras would go through them.

You are approaching no limits fallacy. If its that powerful he should have aged away the barriers with ease as well. But it did not.

He should have been able to age the explosion with ease inside the field. But it did not. He has to keep spewing respire for that to occur.

I will say it again.

Respira dissipates when it comes in contact with matter, (not sure how that affects air), Ceros can slow it down and Starrk only needs to slow down a portion enough for his size.

Its spam vs a stationary guy spewing out.

Respira doesn't go on forever, it will dissipate the more matter it makes contact for it to age away.

Its not like an everlasting wave.

@Destinyheroknight said:

@321zigzag1:

Naruto have never started out with a Bijuu ball, to a unknown opponent.

I did say it helps that Naruto won't make a dash in close combat unless its a clone.

But however let me tell you something. Baraggan likes sit up in the air. What attack do you think Naruto is going to choose in BIjuu Mode? Granted it doesn't mean he won't try to super jump but the bijuu ball option is always an option especially against an aerial opponent.

Also your statement on Naruto not firing a bijuu bomb at an unknown opponent is not exactly something that's grounded. Its in character for him to actually to use it. He just doesn't always.

@Destinyheroknight said:

@321zigzag1:

If he fire one both him and Sasuke will be caught in the explosion. And there is a chance that it would miss, since Barragan like to stay in the sky and Naruto have never use a Bijuu ball on a opponent who can fly

Take in mind that being caught in the explosion aftermath depends on distance and how far Baraggan is up there. I

Take in mind that BIjuu Mode Naruto has survived Juubi's monstrous beam with loss of some of its tails and can protect Sasuke.

Have you not seen BM Naruto's bijuu bomb's size? Its incredibly much bigger and many times its size. The fact Baraggan doesn't try to evade while he is up there makes it even easier.

Maybe not but he sure used it when Tobi was jumping about way up in the sky to force him to use Kamui. Tobi was technically in the air.

Your points are great for pointing out their potential danger but feats seems to suggest it won't be a problem and that an aerial opponent is likely going to encourage bijuu bomb even more.

@Destinyheroknight

said:

@321zigzag1:

Like I say earlier, only way they can win if Barragan go on a villainous rant and not finish them off

Also please don't post pirate sites links on here

Like how he finished off the VIce Captain Omaeda and Soifon?

Why do you think from beginning I stated that the respire winning logic seems to depend on BM Naruto just oogling and standing there.

Granted a serious respire is serious but I don't see why he can't dash away with his bijuu shunshin.

Pirate site links? Well that's my bad, so then which type of links are then allowed?

Does the wolves have to bite to explode?

Its not farfetched that incredible number of ceros would soak up respire.

I honestly doubt 5 mugetsu is going to affect current Juubi, the chart speaks for itself in its offensive prowess. It even survived casually its own biggest bijuu bomb seen yet.

@GIRUGAMESH said:

@321zigzag1 said:

The statement isn't ironic, by 'uber destructive power' I meant a level above Naruto's. And I wasn't disputing the other Espada, as far as I'm concerned Barragan would beat any of the others without much trouble. Honestly, he'd beat Tousen and possibly Gin as well, if Mr Kido hadn't been there he would have dominated nearly all of the shinigami.

A viable way for the team to win is if they figure out his power, Naruto throws Sasuke close to Barragan and then, if Sasuke could focus amaterasu enough, he could plant it within Barragan's skull (since he could see through his eye sockets/jaw). If they did that then I think it would work.

Since when Soifon's bankai combined Haachi's field is greater than a multi-mountain buster? Hence why its ironic.

Starrk himself can spam city block+ size spams.

http://www.mangawolf.com/bleach/361/5

Are you arguing her bankai missile potency's power now because even then I don't see how its greater than all the intense chakra that is condensed.

He can't age something that incredibly much bigger and dense that fast even worse when coming at incredibly high speed.

All these comments are reduced to this. Respira, respira everywhere. But there are limits as shown to Soifon's bankai and Haachi's I don't see why his bijuu bomb especially multiple of them cannot do anything.

The chance of Amaterasu of being decayed vs burning then? I don't think Amaterasu is a good idea.

It was his respira that tagged in released form not his pure speed.

With Starrk's incredible speed how does Baraggan take down Starrk? Although high difficulty for Starrk if he wins. Spamming is the only option.

@nishi99 said:

@taichokage: Genjutsu could still work on him even if he has no eyes in release remember he looked at Aizen's Shikai and lost.

Bijuu Ball would be a better option.

@Destinyheroknight

said:

Barragan should take this, no attacks can really get to him (because of his powers and ability to fly) and Genjutsu is useless. The only way Naruto and Sasuke can win is if Barragan go on a villainous rant and let his guard down (but he would still be in the sky, making it hard to hit him)

Naruto would be the first to go down, since he like to go for close combat in the beginning of fights. Sasuke would last a little longer, but will share Naruto fate

Bijuu ball is more than enough considering its size.

If Naruto goes close combat but it could also be a clone who attacks first. Usually its the latter.

@The_Legendary_SuperSaiyan_Hulk said:

@321zigzag1: Mako was because Amon's concentration was turned more onto that other guy(the equalist that saw Amon blood-bending), loosing him enough to raise his hand just enough for it. Amon was doing his 'psychic' blood-bending, he needs to focus for it.

The bolt was fired after Amon walked up to Mako. So what about Korra?

This inevitablely then brings up the question of how that fire kid managed to resist to fire a bolt and korra overcame it momentarily

@taichokage said:

Ten tails is not that impressive. Hinata imbued with a fraction of Naruto's chakra could hit a tail away and what not. It also miserably failed to overpower half the power of the weaker Kyubi for a long time and it just got punked by the Hokage. I did say based on feats and the current Juubi. Full power Juubi is almost certainly too much, but I'm not impressed by the current one to any notable extent. And yeah Zebra and Toriko almost since their introduction were stronger than team Naruto.

Its because the kyuubi's chakra is that strong. Have you not read the part where it even protected from gigantic weather disasters that covered the entire terrain even making a makeshift mushroom cloud effect towards the end?

I don't know what you are going on about but Kyuubi was easily overpowered.

Hokages are receiving the final part 2 inflation powerup in that drastic barrier tanking even that largest bijuu ball in history.

Lets not forget its internal body durability

Also apparently someone did a chart on juubi's output. Its still quite greater than mugetsu.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?435880-Who-is-the-strongest-the-Juubi-can-beat&p=16302118&viewfull=1#post16302118http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?435880-Who-is-the-strongest-the-Juubi-can-beat&p=16301941&viewfull=1#post16301941