321zigzag1 (Level 9)

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Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Gremmy Thoumeaux vs Juubi

@othus12 said:

Pain reached that level years ago

konoha is a village. and a small one for that matter. people know each other lol.

actual cities are extremely big.

define actual large cities.

A large town or a small city at least for konoha, I will also say that the forest of death was supposed to be inside which is 10 km in diameter which has led to some to think Konoha is at least 20 km or more in diameter.

Not that it diminishes what I said, 1st form Juubi razed a range of mountains if I recall which is better than city level in terms of pure vaporization.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Gremmy Thoumeaux vs Juubi

I am not sure why there is still this runaway notion that incomplete Juubi is still only city level when Pain reached that level years ago with his jutsus. Not to mention in some ways large mountain vaporization has more impressive technicalities.

It doesn't take too long for revisionist mentality to be at work for anywhere.

As for Soul Society size is concerned she said it was around 10 days walking distance if I recall. Sure its possible Kubo may have not completely understood it but we still have to take the phrase under some consideration unlike Los Noches which I think its more likely to be a rather very huge city.

@taichokage said:

Don't know if anyone was in that town. It was a war zone. Nobody was confirmed dead. Ino-Shika-Cho was when it was under control. That's why I said by itself.

It goes both ways. Most people will assume dead though because they have no reason to doubt it either.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Gremmy Thoumeaux vs Juubi

@taichokage said:

He has no choice but to confront them eventually. But he obviously wants to do so on his own terms.

I won't be surprised if he fights them all 5 at once.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Gremmy Thoumeaux vs Juubi

@luthluth said:

@321zigzag1:

Oh that scan. Well yes but he does seem to intend to confront them eventually.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Juubi Madara, 8 Gates Mighty Guy Vs Current Kenpachi

@taichokage said:

I don't know how to classify Guy either other than badass. I was sure that if any Sensei were given a final spotlight it would've been Kakashi. I'm glad it was Guy. His battles are always epic.

His 8 gates put 7 gates to absolute shame. So some members such as in MVC are going Night Elephant country level because he broke Madara's black chakra.

His final attack distorts space to the point of being noticeable which led to speculation on speed of that.

OBD and some of MVC went on a riot on that space distorting speed.

As for me it was Tuesday.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Juubi Madara, 8 Gates Mighty Guy Vs Current Kenpachi

As of now Juubito's 4 combined gigantic bijuu bombs are the largest destructive capacity. Small country level+ or more is something I can entertain on that easily.

That being said 8 Gates Gai, I am trying to see how to classify him.

Juubi Madara is just jobbing right now and barely has done anything.

His fight with Sasuke and Naruto should bring out his true strength.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Gremmy Thoumeaux vs Juubi

@Zerogodlike said:

@taichokage:

since Bach wanted to avoid confrontation with them.

Where did he state that?

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Juubi Madara, 8 Gates Mighty Guy Vs Current Kenpachi

@5th said:

@Zerogodlike: That's not the point, if that was an ACTUAL meteorite, it would have more than just a city level effect, it would have planetary devastation, we still have to see the impact.

Sheesh.

While it doesn't make sense. Madara's two meteorites were still

1) much slower in speed

2) Gaara and Onoki slowed it down considerably

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Rikudou Madara Uchiha Vs Sosuke aizen

@taichokage said:

That sounds fair to me. For the record, I'm not trying to lowball Jubito. At the end of the day he can still outdo Aizen in DC.

Perfect Susanoo slash gets thrown in there for DC comparison.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Rikudou Madara Uchiha Vs Sosuke aizen

@taichokage said:

Even when Madara had Kurama cut through the mountains, Kurama was relatively close in size to those mountains as well. They couldn't have been more than a few hundred meters tall. True though, across the HST, mountains tend to be small. I'm no saying this is exclusive to Naruto.

Well Kyuubi in actual size we do know was quite bigger. The ones we see now are just yin or yang chakra versions which are smaller. Also Bijuu sizes are also inconsistent look at Hachibi in the Tobi fight where Gai and Kakashi were.

For the sake of debate mountain I notice, tends to be more of a normative view amongst authors.

@taichokage said:

The mountain Ichigo vaped was small too. I'm just saying because they tend to be so small, country level is too generous let alone continent level for most any HST character scaled to such levels not just Juubito.

Well I am not going to say continental level either simply because Madara in Rikudo Mode has barely shown anything.

I do see where Juubito being small country may come from.

The argument is exclusively based on scaling from Rikudo Sennin creating the moon on his death bed.. So in theory their continental argument could be correct but we don't have the technical feats yet.

Unless the giant conical bijuu bomb explosions on the land can be better explained as continents maybe then that's that.

Right now though Rikudo Madara barely showed anything. RInnegan Madara with just Sage Mode sort of lived to his hype, but not his jinchuriki form.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Rikudou Madara Uchiha Vs Sosuke aizen

@taichokage said:

The average mountain size in Naruto is small. Some people down play Dangai Ichigo saying its small for a mountain, when Kurama can stand right next to some of them and be almost the same size.

No that's just shonen manga in general especially with the HST. Size inconsistency has its useful arguments for example lets say we are comparing islands. Because its obvious islands have much more of a varied size and distance.

Mountains on the other hand are sort of a different matter so we have to be much more careful about it. Also Konoha mountain was small not the standard ones in Narutoverse.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Itachi vs Six paths of Pain

@Kobra678 said:

@321zigzag1 said:

@Kobra678 said:

Just a question, since all of the Pain bodies share vision, if Itachi got one of them in Tsukuyomi, would that mean they all are in it?

6 of them share vision in a sense Nagato can see all of them.

Think of them as 6 cameras. Nagato can see through 6 televisions at the same time. One television is affected but not all. Neither the televisions or camera are linked to each other directly.

They are only linked in a sense that the viewer can see through all of them.

This isn't true. Proven when Naruto first fights the Preta Path. All 6 of them share vision with each other. That's the entire reason why he had to take out the Animal Path inside of the Toads mouth.

The camera logic isn't something I created. The toads used it as an example during SM Jiraiya vs Pain fight.

Preta Path happened first. Animal Path happened much later those two are not related events.

PReta Path failed because none of the Paths could anticipate the natural energy aura. Shared Vision helped Preta Path escape.

Animal PAth was blinded so they can take out the summoner so the Multiplying Cerberus summon would be eliminated.

Animal Path was inside the mouth yet the others had no idea where it was because they couldn't see the summoner not sure how this is proof.

@GIRUGAMESH said:

@321zigzag1: I thought he might mean that, in which case he has no argument. Both of them were just toying with each other, it was clear that neither Kakashi nor Obito were really affected by it. Hell, Obito might have even been using his sharingan there as well.

And I still call bullshit on that idea- no MS should ever be taken down by a regular genjutsu. If it was some exceptional, unique one, like Shisui's ability, then fair enough, but otherwise, I simply don't see it.

Either way, I don't see one tsukuyomi taking down all 6 paths, and the technique takes quite a lot out of Itachi to use. Even if he did beat one path with it, he'd be in a worse condition against the rest.

My point was mainly hypothetical on the genjutsu ms vs sharingan part anyway. After all anything is possible in fiction regardless of how ridiculous it might sound. If it can be barely half heartedly explained away it can be done.

I honestly doubt Tsukiyomi can torture something that isn't there. Unless its effects transfer across the chakra waves somehow.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

Actually I just rewatched the fight. Dai Li aGents interefered from the beginning. But I did notice some things.

@Whats_out_the_bag said:

I'm just going to skip the boring crap, and jump right into the yummy goodness.

@321zigzag1:

Hidan the stupidest Akatsuki member was able to figure out how Shadow Sewing worked and its drawbacks. It doesn't take a genious how earth bending works. Hidan wouldn't be able to deduce how Toph does it but he would notice how Toph's movements play a role and how earth is manipulated.

So him learning how Toph earth bends helps him how? He'll be in a hole by time he notices anything really.

As I stated from the very beginning in this thread I can see why Toph can win. Hidan's offense is not very suited here. Plus Kurohige reminded me of her earth sense but especially metal bending.

My problem was that people were making it sound Hidan was such an easy catch when he has shown quite better acrobatics and speed compared to Azula.

Minus knowledge. the point is that it doesn't take a genius to figure how earthbending works at least in general terms.

Not to mention Toph doesn't always start out making a hole. She also is likely at the same time make projectiles or launch you from the ground than make holes.

Things to consider of course that's what I always do. Hidan was able to sense shadow sewing silently creeping behind far away. I don't see why he can't feel the sudden shift in movemen of the earth but regardless.

Doesn't mean that Hidan can't get caught off guard from the ground then launched then trapped either. Both are possible.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Naruto & Killer bee vs Vasto Lorde Ichigo & Ulquiorra

@Kurohige said:

Also here is the link to the calc by Supernova from the lounge, note how this was barley discussed and not many even agreed on it, it's not official here or anything, there was no agreement or debate, I think it should be necroed and then discussed again now that more people are aware.

http://www.animevice.com/las-noches/23-996/size-of-las-noches-and-destructive-power-of-ulquiorra/97-343948/

This reminds of MVC's version of it. It's a debate that will never end. On a hypothetical note I can see where the country level comes from but at the same I feel there are several inconsistencies with it or I don't know.

Anyway nice scan on Aizen.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

It was the fact that Shikamaru could outsmart his opponents which is why he won, he constantly beat people who were far stronger and had more devastating attacks, i.e. Temari, it is also why he was able to climb through the ranks like he did. As a shinobi Asuma is better than Shikamaru, he is a sensei and guides his team. However we have never seen Asuma come up with any sort of plan that would put his leadership above Shikamaru's in part 1. The guy was leading jounin level missions in part 1. Aside from Asuma being their sensei there is nothing to suggest Asuma>Shikamaru. Just like how Kabuto was Jounin level and was taken out by Naruto with one move he barely had time to make decent.

Yup, I dunno why you brought it up then, even so it helps my point; it may not make sense but part 1 Shikamaru is better/more impressive than Asuma a "elite" jounin. Storywise it makes no sense.

Asuma did not engage him for a short period of times; Kisame wanted to have fun and swung at him with one arm WITHOUT even taking the bandages from his sword,Asuma dodged the first one then had to block the second swing, Asuma was struggling from just the tip of the sword and had Kurenai use genjutsu, Itachi activates his genjutsu, Kisame rips Asuma's arm up. Then, Asuma states "You're late, Kurenai..." and Kisame is affected by the genjutsu, Itachi reverses the genjutsu, Kurenai gets herself out of the genjutsu and barley avoids a fatal hit from Itachi and is kicked into the water, Asuma calls out her name and Kisame tells him not to get distracted and charges at him, Kisame swings, Asuma dodges and surprises Kisame with his chakara blades and gives him a small cut on the cheek. Kisame then does a water shark bomb jutsu, Kakashi steps in front of Asuma and uses the technique as well.

Prep time, That's how he defeated Hidan. As for Temari he beat it with smarts. He was going to lose against Tayuya however. Yes we already concluded smarts shikamaru is better. Kabuto? He was already described as Part 1 Kakashi level. He easily escaped Kakashi. By your stance Tsunade is worse than Kabuto now?

Naruto temporarily got a move on Kabuto but he never defeated him. He got back up in time to summon Manda. So no. Reread that chapter.

Again you aren't explaining why Asuma is worse. All you doing is labeling his feats bad while upping Shikamaru's chunin exams feat but not explaining why. All you proved was his smarts but we both knew this from the beginning.

You did a nice job of repeating the fight except you seemed to miss one thing.

Why do you think Kisame went for the water shark missile instead of just going at it taijutsu. Because Part 1 Kisame realized pure taijutsu wasn't enough. Sure Kisame would still stomp Asuma in the end but at least in Part 1 Kisame probably surmised taijutsu wasn't enough.

If anything that skirmish puts Asuma above Shikamaru easily but of course by your admission CS1 Sasuke, Shikamaru, etc would do better but we see no reasons why. Unless of course they were all Kisame level

@321zigzag1:

Lol Shikamaru was able to deflect a genjutsu that placed nearly the entire chuunin exams in a deep sleep, Kakashi told them the mission was to hurry and get Sasuke with the help of Pakkun, Shikamaru needed to be a decoy to delay the trackers, he got a majority of the jounin an a shadow possession,however one was hidden, had Shikamaru not used so much chakara he would have one-shotted all of them

So yeah, Shikamaru would have had a easier time however he had to make a quick decision to leave the group and distract them before he could analyse the group and make a good plan, all things considered Shikamaru did great, he used a different tactic than simply charging in and attacking but being able to nearly kill 4-5 jounin at once is incredible. So still not seeing how he isn't above Asuma.

Well this is fascinating, of all the examples, you use the genjutsu arena feat. Yeah the same ones all the elite jounin and anbu easily broke. Unless you think Asuma magically woke up somehow.

Even more interesting you say SHikamaru would have one shotted them all yet he and his group crapped their pants at the mention of 10 jounins chasing them.

The fact Asuma easily dispatched them all yet Shikamaru couldn't should tell you what the author is trying to show you the obvious.

Just because Shikamaru had less chakra doesn't suddenly translate he could defeat them all in one swoop. He caught them as an admission of his smarts but he had no other way of taking them down especially thanks to the hidden 10th one.

In fact that Shikamaru opted to use a well planned ambush is also testament that he couldn't take them on directly in a direct fight.

@321zigzag1:

Storywise, Asuma has the role of a high ranking officer of Konoha and a sensei going by context. That is nothing that Naruto and the other genin have not fought against, Asuma is a role for that of the story to progress and help progress some of the characters in it (Like his team), however, he still did not demonstrate much else that makes him an elite. Look at Hayate vs Baki, both jounin and Hayate was one-shotted, rank means nothing, he was only admired for being able to use a advanced technique. Rank means nearly squat after a certain point.

Shikamaru stated that the person to be a decoy against the trackers would likely die, then stated that he is the best choice since he could be a decoy without dying. The purpose was to get to Sasuke on time, not take out all the trackers. Even then, again, he nearly one-shotted all of them except the one hiding.

They wouldn't be able to use taijutsu and take them out like that, no. However Shikamaru clearly demonstrated the same kind of ability with a different way and Temari was able to clear a entire forest, so yes I think she could have taken them out too.

Yup, Neji did not react to Gai and Kakashi (The fastest people there) and 3 others blindsiding him to stop his attack, he was not going at full speed, anyone can clearly see that, he was simply running, no indication of his speed at all.

Baki is an elite jounin of Sand. Hayate wasn't. He was a special jounin. Just for clarification on that.

He nearly one shotted them all as a result of a well planned ambush. Shikamaru knew he couldn't take them on in a direct fight. Shikamaru played to his incredible strength at the expense of the fodder. If Asuma was there he would have just blitzed them all and the smoked to add insult to injury.

Maybe Temari but only because of the lethal jutsu In the end of the part 1 they were reaching high chunin/low jounin status at the bare least. In fact many consider Kimimaro elite jounin level. Him vs Hidan and Him vs Asuma have been popular matched in many naruto battle forums.

Regardless its an indication of speed. The fact the fodder blitzing Asuma showed yet Shikamaru couldn't at least in speed should tell you something.

@321zigzag1:

That is not the same, seeing a pattern of attack AFTER being saved and experiencing it is not the same as reacting before the attack is made or by muscle movement and memory like Azula was doing.

Also, Sakura is one of the smartest shinobi next to Shikamaru and Kakashi and Chiyo even remarked how extraordinary that was, I don't see how her, albeit memorizing, the attack pattern is any indication Hidan could do the same, a character mocked for his stupidity. Chiyo was also using her, just not the same as before since she had only one hand.

You want a thread of Asuma, no edo tensei, vs The sound 4, Part 1 Shikamaru, Part 1 Temari, and part 1 CS1 Sasuke? Okay.

After looking at the fight once more he and Hidan did not even fight at the point, after he was kicked Hidan leaped at him, Kakashi blocked, then Kakuzu attacked with a jutsu, then launched a lightning jutsu at the others, Kakashi then jumps in the way. Kakashi took 2 jutsu and still fought with Hidan, and yes by that point he was exhausted, he was pushing himself at that point. There was not fight at that point.

I am not exactly sure why you are showing Iron Sand Drizzle which happened before Sakura played ping pong with Sasori. It doesn't take away what I showed in that scan. My point was Sakura was learning to read Sasori's movements, I showed in that scan.

Hidan the stupidest Akatsuki member was able to figure out how Shadow Sewing worked and its drawbacks. It doesn't take a genious how earth bending works. Hidan wouldn't be able to deduce how Toph does it but he would notice how Toph's movements play a role and how earth is manipulated.

There is nothing stopping you from making the thread mein square.

Yes when Hidan leaped at him and swung multiple times and Kakashi blocked. That is a skirmish.

Nope he wasn't exhausted by then either. He wasn't panting nor he commented anything. If anything at the bare least he wasn't exhausted before Shikamaru fled with Hidan to somewhere else. You keep saying look at Kakashi but then that's just subjective.

Then again Kakashi did plan to use Kamui on Kakuzu before Naruto arrived you know. Kakashi against deidara used Kamui twice yet wasn't exhausted. Yet somehow a kick, wind jutsu, two raikiri makes Kakashi exhausted?

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Aizen vs Mukuro vs Itachi vs Babidi

I declare the only purpose for Itachi being in this thread is to say:

Itachi's soloes.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Pyron vs Satan

@eddz99 said:

@othus12 said:

This is Satan from where?

obviously from dragon ball

It's not so obvious, The Mister Satan would definitely stomp here.

Btw he was the first thing that came to mind when i read satan xD

I feel like there are a couple of Satan named characters than I thought.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Grimmjow vs EMS Sasuke Uchiha

@Kurohige said:

@Vapovile:

There is more to a character than DC and speed. Certain Bleach characters do have the hax to bring down Juubidara. Here are just a few examples;

Hax that is overpowered by characters vastly stronger and faster

1. Aizen taking out KS and trapping Juubidara in a fantasy world until Yamamoto can slice him in half, or Barragan can age him to death with Respira.

That implies that the Bleach team has prep for a combo like that, also if it was attacking them all at once with a bijuudama why would he focus only on Aizen, it also would not matter because the simple size of the attack would mean that hypnosis is completely useless here, a country level attack would be a bit out of Aizen's scope of power, how would he prepare for something like that? He wont be able to even dodged in time. This is also assuming they get that close, Barragan would be blown up before his respira can even take over the jyubbi's whole body,

2. With Juubidara distracted with the other Bleach-verse, Rukia can freeze him with her bankai. Remember, this is the ENTIRE verse at once.

Why would the jyuubi be distracted when it was not distracted when fighting the tailed beast and the other shinobi? We can't even guage the power of that bankai and she must concentrate to use it or risk kill herself and those around her as well. Again, Jyuubi has bijuu spam, she wont be able to dodge it, too much speed and power. Jyuubi can also make minion to attack.

3. Zommari unleashing his shield from afar and stopping Juubidara dead in his tracks. Without prep, Juubidara wouldn't know what his power was, so he would be more interested in more powerful characters like Ichigo and Yamamoto.

Zommari would not even know where to attack to control something like the jyuubi, and considering the jyuubi was breaking the control over the people who summoned it I have a hard time imagining Zommari fairing differently. Even so, how would he manage a clean hit before he is blown up by a bijuu bomb? He also has to release in order to use that technique.

I'm going to call it for now. Needless to say, Juubidara may be powerful, but he can't solo an entire verse at once on the scale of Bleach.

Yes it can. They can't survive or dodge a single bijuudama. Unless they start like 2 feet in front of it I don't see things like yamamoto's, or rukia's bankai working either. Aizen, Bach, and Yamamoto are the only threats here and even then they get taken out pretty easily.

Just for sake of points, yours is more hypothetical, not saying it can't happen but we have to wait and see. Let's give Madara more feat time and be more patient.

@nishi99 said:

Juubito solo Bleach? lol. Juubidara probably won't even be able to do that.

Potentially it exists but we still have to wait and see.

In before Moon crashes down. That is honestly my only expectation for the Naruto manga.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Itachi vs Six paths of Pain

@GIRUGAMESH said:

@Jgames said:

@GIRUGAMESH: theres no evidence genjutsu won't work when kakkashi even manage to cast a temporary genjutsu against obito who had the rinnegan, while itachi rofl stomp kakkashi with genjutsu. So them being madara eyes is not a good reason.

Sorry, I must have missed that somehow, when did Kakashi put Obito in a genjutsu?

@Kobra678 said:

Itachi loses the last to for sure, but not sure about the 1st. All he has to do is get one of them in Tsukuyomi (assuming it works) and their linked vision would work against them. Just because they have a Rinnegan doesn't mean he's immune to sharingan genjutsu, or else Danzo and Kakashi wouldn't have been trapped in it.

It's like saying that a genjutsu from a regular sharingan would work on someone with an MS, it just doesn't make sense (to me, at least). Does anyone have any scans of visual genjutsu ever working on someone with rinnegan?

He must be talking about the fight inside the Kamui dimension although I thought Obito put him in genjutsu first and then both had a genjutsu fight.

He's probably using a relative context argument. For example while naturally Rinnegan > MS > Sharingan skill level can make a difference.

For example hypothetically a super uchiha sharingan > regular MS etc.

@Kobra678 said:

Just a question, since all of the Pain bodies share vision, if Itachi got one of them in Tsukuyomi, would that mean they all are in it?

6 of them share vision in a sense Nagato can see all of them.

Think of them as 6 cameras. Nagato can see through 6 televisions at the same time. One television is affected but not all. Neither the televisions or camera are linked to each other directly.

They are only linked in a sense that the viewer can see through all of them.

Also Tsukiyomi effects has to go from the Pain Path to Nagato. Can it be done? I argue against it from my take because Nagato isn't actually there. The only links are chakra waves unless Tsukiyomi can cross the effects through the waves.

Post by 321zigzag1 (650 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » As Nodt VS. Kaname Tousen

Naturally, I consider As Nodt to be above Tousen but Tousen being blind has a particular counter to As Nodt's rather unique trump card.

Tousen being obsessed with justice could be exploited with fear thorns easily or not depending on his resolve, depending how you want to see it.

Unless fear thorns can somehow cut his through his bankai release.

Although Tousen's unique hollow release give him eyes which would backfire on his. His sound attack is powerful though.

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