321zigzag1 (Level 9)

hasn't updated recently.
followed by
5
Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Itachi vs Six paths of Pain

@Kobra678 said:

@321zigzag1 said:

@Kobra678 said:

Just a question, since all of the Pain bodies share vision, if Itachi got one of them in Tsukuyomi, would that mean they all are in it?

6 of them share vision in a sense Nagato can see all of them.

Think of them as 6 cameras. Nagato can see through 6 televisions at the same time. One television is affected but not all. Neither the televisions or camera are linked to each other directly.

They are only linked in a sense that the viewer can see through all of them.

This isn't true. Proven when Naruto first fights the Preta Path. All 6 of them share vision with each other. That's the entire reason why he had to take out the Animal Path inside of the Toads mouth.

The camera logic isn't something I created. The toads used it as an example during SM Jiraiya vs Pain fight.

Preta Path happened first. Animal Path happened much later those two are not related events.

PReta Path failed because none of the Paths could anticipate the natural energy aura. Shared Vision helped Preta Path escape.

Animal PAth was blinded so they can take out the summoner so the Multiplying Cerberus summon would be eliminated.

Animal Path was inside the mouth yet the others had no idea where it was because they couldn't see the summoner not sure how this is proof.

@GIRUGAMESH said:

@321zigzag1: I thought he might mean that, in which case he has no argument. Both of them were just toying with each other, it was clear that neither Kakashi nor Obito were really affected by it. Hell, Obito might have even been using his sharingan there as well.

And I still call bullshit on that idea- no MS should ever be taken down by a regular genjutsu. If it was some exceptional, unique one, like Shisui's ability, then fair enough, but otherwise, I simply don't see it.

Either way, I don't see one tsukuyomi taking down all 6 paths, and the technique takes quite a lot out of Itachi to use. Even if he did beat one path with it, he'd be in a worse condition against the rest.

My point was mainly hypothetical on the genjutsu ms vs sharingan part anyway. After all anything is possible in fiction regardless of how ridiculous it might sound. If it can be barely half heartedly explained away it can be done.

I honestly doubt Tsukiyomi can torture something that isn't there. Unless its effects transfer across the chakra waves somehow.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

Actually I just rewatched the fight. Dai Li aGents interefered from the beginning. But I did notice some things.

@Whats_out_the_bag said:

I'm just going to skip the boring crap, and jump right into the yummy goodness.

@321zigzag1:

Hidan the stupidest Akatsuki member was able to figure out how Shadow Sewing worked and its drawbacks. It doesn't take a genious how earth bending works. Hidan wouldn't be able to deduce how Toph does it but he would notice how Toph's movements play a role and how earth is manipulated.

So him learning how Toph earth bends helps him how? He'll be in a hole by time he notices anything really.

As I stated from the very beginning in this thread I can see why Toph can win. Hidan's offense is not very suited here. Plus Kurohige reminded me of her earth sense but especially metal bending.

My problem was that people were making it sound Hidan was such an easy catch when he has shown quite better acrobatics and speed compared to Azula.

Minus knowledge. the point is that it doesn't take a genius to figure how earthbending works at least in general terms.

Not to mention Toph doesn't always start out making a hole. She also is likely at the same time make projectiles or launch you from the ground than make holes.

Things to consider of course that's what I always do. Hidan was able to sense shadow sewing silently creeping behind far away. I don't see why he can't feel the sudden shift in movemen of the earth but regardless.

Doesn't mean that Hidan can't get caught off guard from the ground then launched then trapped either. Both are possible.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Naruto & Killer bee vs Vasto Lorde Ichigo & Ulquiorra

@Kurohige said:

Also here is the link to the calc by Supernova from the lounge, note how this was barley discussed and not many even agreed on it, it's not official here or anything, there was no agreement or debate, I think it should be necroed and then discussed again now that more people are aware.

http://www.animevice.com/las-noches/23-996/size-of-las-noches-and-destructive-power-of-ulquiorra/97-343948/

This reminds of MVC's version of it. It's a debate that will never end. On a hypothetical note I can see where the country level comes from but at the same I feel there are several inconsistencies with it or I don't know.

Anyway nice scan on Aizen.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

It was the fact that Shikamaru could outsmart his opponents which is why he won, he constantly beat people who were far stronger and had more devastating attacks, i.e. Temari, it is also why he was able to climb through the ranks like he did. As a shinobi Asuma is better than Shikamaru, he is a sensei and guides his team. However we have never seen Asuma come up with any sort of plan that would put his leadership above Shikamaru's in part 1. The guy was leading jounin level missions in part 1. Aside from Asuma being their sensei there is nothing to suggest Asuma>Shikamaru. Just like how Kabuto was Jounin level and was taken out by Naruto with one move he barely had time to make decent.

Yup, I dunno why you brought it up then, even so it helps my point; it may not make sense but part 1 Shikamaru is better/more impressive than Asuma a "elite" jounin. Storywise it makes no sense.

Asuma did not engage him for a short period of times; Kisame wanted to have fun and swung at him with one arm WITHOUT even taking the bandages from his sword,Asuma dodged the first one then had to block the second swing, Asuma was struggling from just the tip of the sword and had Kurenai use genjutsu, Itachi activates his genjutsu, Kisame rips Asuma's arm up. Then, Asuma states "You're late, Kurenai..." and Kisame is affected by the genjutsu, Itachi reverses the genjutsu, Kurenai gets herself out of the genjutsu and barley avoids a fatal hit from Itachi and is kicked into the water, Asuma calls out her name and Kisame tells him not to get distracted and charges at him, Kisame swings, Asuma dodges and surprises Kisame with his chakara blades and gives him a small cut on the cheek. Kisame then does a water shark bomb jutsu, Kakashi steps in front of Asuma and uses the technique as well.

Prep time, That's how he defeated Hidan. As for Temari he beat it with smarts. He was going to lose against Tayuya however. Yes we already concluded smarts shikamaru is better. Kabuto? He was already described as Part 1 Kakashi level. He easily escaped Kakashi. By your stance Tsunade is worse than Kabuto now?

Naruto temporarily got a move on Kabuto but he never defeated him. He got back up in time to summon Manda. So no. Reread that chapter.

Again you aren't explaining why Asuma is worse. All you doing is labeling his feats bad while upping Shikamaru's chunin exams feat but not explaining why. All you proved was his smarts but we both knew this from the beginning.

You did a nice job of repeating the fight except you seemed to miss one thing.

Why do you think Kisame went for the water shark missile instead of just going at it taijutsu. Because Part 1 Kisame realized pure taijutsu wasn't enough. Sure Kisame would still stomp Asuma in the end but at least in Part 1 Kisame probably surmised taijutsu wasn't enough.

If anything that skirmish puts Asuma above Shikamaru easily but of course by your admission CS1 Sasuke, Shikamaru, etc would do better but we see no reasons why. Unless of course they were all Kisame level

@321zigzag1:

Lol Shikamaru was able to deflect a genjutsu that placed nearly the entire chuunin exams in a deep sleep, Kakashi told them the mission was to hurry and get Sasuke with the help of Pakkun, Shikamaru needed to be a decoy to delay the trackers, he got a majority of the jounin an a shadow possession,however one was hidden, had Shikamaru not used so much chakara he would have one-shotted all of them

So yeah, Shikamaru would have had a easier time however he had to make a quick decision to leave the group and distract them before he could analyse the group and make a good plan, all things considered Shikamaru did great, he used a different tactic than simply charging in and attacking but being able to nearly kill 4-5 jounin at once is incredible. So still not seeing how he isn't above Asuma.

Well this is fascinating, of all the examples, you use the genjutsu arena feat. Yeah the same ones all the elite jounin and anbu easily broke. Unless you think Asuma magically woke up somehow.

Even more interesting you say SHikamaru would have one shotted them all yet he and his group crapped their pants at the mention of 10 jounins chasing them.

The fact Asuma easily dispatched them all yet Shikamaru couldn't should tell you what the author is trying to show you the obvious.

Just because Shikamaru had less chakra doesn't suddenly translate he could defeat them all in one swoop. He caught them as an admission of his smarts but he had no other way of taking them down especially thanks to the hidden 10th one.

In fact that Shikamaru opted to use a well planned ambush is also testament that he couldn't take them on directly in a direct fight.

@321zigzag1:

Storywise, Asuma has the role of a high ranking officer of Konoha and a sensei going by context. That is nothing that Naruto and the other genin have not fought against, Asuma is a role for that of the story to progress and help progress some of the characters in it (Like his team), however, he still did not demonstrate much else that makes him an elite. Look at Hayate vs Baki, both jounin and Hayate was one-shotted, rank means nothing, he was only admired for being able to use a advanced technique. Rank means nearly squat after a certain point.

Shikamaru stated that the person to be a decoy against the trackers would likely die, then stated that he is the best choice since he could be a decoy without dying. The purpose was to get to Sasuke on time, not take out all the trackers. Even then, again, he nearly one-shotted all of them except the one hiding.

They wouldn't be able to use taijutsu and take them out like that, no. However Shikamaru clearly demonstrated the same kind of ability with a different way and Temari was able to clear a entire forest, so yes I think she could have taken them out too.

Yup, Neji did not react to Gai and Kakashi (The fastest people there) and 3 others blindsiding him to stop his attack, he was not going at full speed, anyone can clearly see that, he was simply running, no indication of his speed at all.

Baki is an elite jounin of Sand. Hayate wasn't. He was a special jounin. Just for clarification on that.

He nearly one shotted them all as a result of a well planned ambush. Shikamaru knew he couldn't take them on in a direct fight. Shikamaru played to his incredible strength at the expense of the fodder. If Asuma was there he would have just blitzed them all and the smoked to add insult to injury.

Maybe Temari but only because of the lethal jutsu In the end of the part 1 they were reaching high chunin/low jounin status at the bare least. In fact many consider Kimimaro elite jounin level. Him vs Hidan and Him vs Asuma have been popular matched in many naruto battle forums.

Regardless its an indication of speed. The fact the fodder blitzing Asuma showed yet Shikamaru couldn't at least in speed should tell you something.

@321zigzag1:

That is not the same, seeing a pattern of attack AFTER being saved and experiencing it is not the same as reacting before the attack is made or by muscle movement and memory like Azula was doing.

Also, Sakura is one of the smartest shinobi next to Shikamaru and Kakashi and Chiyo even remarked how extraordinary that was, I don't see how her, albeit memorizing, the attack pattern is any indication Hidan could do the same, a character mocked for his stupidity. Chiyo was also using her, just not the same as before since she had only one hand.

You want a thread of Asuma, no edo tensei, vs The sound 4, Part 1 Shikamaru, Part 1 Temari, and part 1 CS1 Sasuke? Okay.

After looking at the fight once more he and Hidan did not even fight at the point, after he was kicked Hidan leaped at him, Kakashi blocked, then Kakuzu attacked with a jutsu, then launched a lightning jutsu at the others, Kakashi then jumps in the way. Kakashi took 2 jutsu and still fought with Hidan, and yes by that point he was exhausted, he was pushing himself at that point. There was not fight at that point.

I am not exactly sure why you are showing Iron Sand Drizzle which happened before Sakura played ping pong with Sasori. It doesn't take away what I showed in that scan. My point was Sakura was learning to read Sasori's movements, I showed in that scan.

Hidan the stupidest Akatsuki member was able to figure out how Shadow Sewing worked and its drawbacks. It doesn't take a genious how earth bending works. Hidan wouldn't be able to deduce how Toph does it but he would notice how Toph's movements play a role and how earth is manipulated.

There is nothing stopping you from making the thread mein square.

Yes when Hidan leaped at him and swung multiple times and Kakashi blocked. That is a skirmish.

Nope he wasn't exhausted by then either. He wasn't panting nor he commented anything. If anything at the bare least he wasn't exhausted before Shikamaru fled with Hidan to somewhere else. You keep saying look at Kakashi but then that's just subjective.

Then again Kakashi did plan to use Kamui on Kakuzu before Naruto arrived you know. Kakashi against deidara used Kamui twice yet wasn't exhausted. Yet somehow a kick, wind jutsu, two raikiri makes Kakashi exhausted?

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Aizen vs Mukuro vs Itachi vs Babidi

I declare the only purpose for Itachi being in this thread is to say:

Itachi's soloes.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Pyron vs Satan

@eddz99 said:

@othus12 said:

This is Satan from where?

obviously from dragon ball

It's not so obvious, The Mister Satan would definitely stomp here.

Btw he was the first thing that came to mind when i read satan xD

I feel like there are a couple of Satan named characters than I thought.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Grimmjow vs EMS Sasuke Uchiha

@Kurohige said:

@Vapovile:

There is more to a character than DC and speed. Certain Bleach characters do have the hax to bring down Juubidara. Here are just a few examples;

Hax that is overpowered by characters vastly stronger and faster

1. Aizen taking out KS and trapping Juubidara in a fantasy world until Yamamoto can slice him in half, or Barragan can age him to death with Respira.

That implies that the Bleach team has prep for a combo like that, also if it was attacking them all at once with a bijuudama why would he focus only on Aizen, it also would not matter because the simple size of the attack would mean that hypnosis is completely useless here, a country level attack would be a bit out of Aizen's scope of power, how would he prepare for something like that? He wont be able to even dodged in time. This is also assuming they get that close, Barragan would be blown up before his respira can even take over the jyubbi's whole body,

2. With Juubidara distracted with the other Bleach-verse, Rukia can freeze him with her bankai. Remember, this is the ENTIRE verse at once.

Why would the jyuubi be distracted when it was not distracted when fighting the tailed beast and the other shinobi? We can't even guage the power of that bankai and she must concentrate to use it or risk kill herself and those around her as well. Again, Jyuubi has bijuu spam, she wont be able to dodge it, too much speed and power. Jyuubi can also make minion to attack.

3. Zommari unleashing his shield from afar and stopping Juubidara dead in his tracks. Without prep, Juubidara wouldn't know what his power was, so he would be more interested in more powerful characters like Ichigo and Yamamoto.

Zommari would not even know where to attack to control something like the jyuubi, and considering the jyuubi was breaking the control over the people who summoned it I have a hard time imagining Zommari fairing differently. Even so, how would he manage a clean hit before he is blown up by a bijuu bomb? He also has to release in order to use that technique.

I'm going to call it for now. Needless to say, Juubidara may be powerful, but he can't solo an entire verse at once on the scale of Bleach.

Yes it can. They can't survive or dodge a single bijuudama. Unless they start like 2 feet in front of it I don't see things like yamamoto's, or rukia's bankai working either. Aizen, Bach, and Yamamoto are the only threats here and even then they get taken out pretty easily.

Just for sake of points, yours is more hypothetical, not saying it can't happen but we have to wait and see. Let's give Madara more feat time and be more patient.

@nishi99 said:

Juubito solo Bleach? lol. Juubidara probably won't even be able to do that.

Potentially it exists but we still have to wait and see.

In before Moon crashes down. That is honestly my only expectation for the Naruto manga.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Itachi vs Six paths of Pain

@GIRUGAMESH said:

@Jgames said:

@GIRUGAMESH: theres no evidence genjutsu won't work when kakkashi even manage to cast a temporary genjutsu against obito who had the rinnegan, while itachi rofl stomp kakkashi with genjutsu. So them being madara eyes is not a good reason.

Sorry, I must have missed that somehow, when did Kakashi put Obito in a genjutsu?

@Kobra678 said:

Itachi loses the last to for sure, but not sure about the 1st. All he has to do is get one of them in Tsukuyomi (assuming it works) and their linked vision would work against them. Just because they have a Rinnegan doesn't mean he's immune to sharingan genjutsu, or else Danzo and Kakashi wouldn't have been trapped in it.

It's like saying that a genjutsu from a regular sharingan would work on someone with an MS, it just doesn't make sense (to me, at least). Does anyone have any scans of visual genjutsu ever working on someone with rinnegan?

He must be talking about the fight inside the Kamui dimension although I thought Obito put him in genjutsu first and then both had a genjutsu fight.

He's probably using a relative context argument. For example while naturally Rinnegan > MS > Sharingan skill level can make a difference.

For example hypothetically a super uchiha sharingan > regular MS etc.

@Kobra678 said:

Just a question, since all of the Pain bodies share vision, if Itachi got one of them in Tsukuyomi, would that mean they all are in it?

6 of them share vision in a sense Nagato can see all of them.

Think of them as 6 cameras. Nagato can see through 6 televisions at the same time. One television is affected but not all. Neither the televisions or camera are linked to each other directly.

They are only linked in a sense that the viewer can see through all of them.

Also Tsukiyomi effects has to go from the Pain Path to Nagato. Can it be done? I argue against it from my take because Nagato isn't actually there. The only links are chakra waves unless Tsukiyomi can cross the effects through the waves.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » As Nodt VS. Kaname Tousen

Naturally, I consider As Nodt to be above Tousen but Tousen being blind has a particular counter to As Nodt's rather unique trump card.

Tousen being obsessed with justice could be exploited with fear thorns easily or not depending on his resolve, depending how you want to see it.

Unless fear thorns can somehow cut his through his bankai release.

Although Tousen's unique hollow release give him eyes which would backfire on his. His sound attack is powerful though.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Kyuubi Mode Naruto Vs True Bankai Renji, Rukia

@Whats_out_the_bag said:

I was going to wet my pants for a moment based on the title. Didn't know the weak friends were on kyuubi mode naruto's level. Was going to say what's going on.

Thought they got them a big ass power up. But nothing more than the mismatch. Proceed.

Well they have bankais and both are pretty nifty especially the latter or you were not fazed?

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Dream said:

@othus12: With two people still arguing in Hidan's favor, I'm not locking this just yet (even if I'm in favor of the opposition as well).

Meh. I was rather towards indifferent my problem was how fast people said Hidan would lose, but now I am more interested in how Hidan is weaker than CS1 Sasuke, Sound 4, all characters from Part 1. Sure its distracting from the main point in a way so I apologize on that part.

@Haiken said:

@321zigzag1: There is actually no need for such complex calculations and speedscaling stuff.. Toph could just stomp the ground and make a large hole where hidan is standing, and that would be it.. remember how she just stomped the ground when they infiltrated the drill in ba sing se.. Another option for toph is make a large tent-like boulders from the ground to seal hidan to where he is and bury him there..

There is also one option for hidan. that is leaping high so that toph will not be able to sense him, but hidan is a loud type and almost never stops boasting, and toph has that super hearing ability..

But the moment that Hidan tries to leap, toph will most likely sense it and seal him in the ground.. Toph did not sense aang since he is not in a leaping form when he went mid-air, it was airbending, and toph does not know about it..

Now I don't know where you got complex calculations from considering this isn't OBD or MVC to a lesser extent.

Anyhow I already stated from my first post in this thread I can understand why Toph can win and Hidan's offense is not spectacular here. I feel there is an underestimation of his speed here but I considered Toph's earth sense. And I did actually forget metal bending.

I feel though its possible to argue Hidan's experience with Shadow Sewing popping from the ground can compensate. That's just my take, I am sort of arguing on secondary points on feat accuracy.

@UltimateHero0406

said:

@321zigzag1: Exactly, Hidan had more help. Kakuzu is a beast. He's way better help in a break out fight than Shikamaru, and 2 fodder ninjas.

And also, it would be useful if he was fighting someone who couldn't jack up his circle by twitching a finger.

Depends where you are talking about. If you mean in the 2nd fight sure. IF you are talking about the first one where Asuma died well Hidan was mainly fighting against two Asuma and Shikamaru then that is another. Take in mind Kakuzu didn't do anything at first until Hidan lost his head.

@othus12 said:

why is this still going? toph wins. no contest.

My first reply in this post shows my further take but I already stated my position in my first post from this thread anyway so.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Yes there is, if we went by titles as a way to gauge power levels then Freiza would be the ultimate villain, Hulk would be the strongest there is, Kabuto should be well above Kage level BEFORE acquiring sage mode sense he beat Tsunade, arguably one of the most pathetic excuses for a Sannin or Hokage ever. Also if we went by title then Anbu>>>Jounin, but we know that's not true sense Kakashi and Itachi are the only noteworthy anbu, if we went by titles Yamato would be stronger than Gai sense he was a elite anbu and Gai has never been one. Not to mention the in Bleach Captains are meant to be>>>>everyone else but behold Renji and Rukia are already better than every captain who didn't receive special training like Byakuya and Kenpachi. At the very least better than Kensei and Rose. It's pointless, just like bounties in One Piece, Power levels in DBZ after the saiyan saga, the titles Captain in Bleach ect.

I don't know why you went on when I already did agree before hand.

@321zigzag1:

I wouldn't be surprised given that Asuma had already admitted Shikamaru was much smarter than he was and had constantly outwitted him, add in the fact that that he was nominated to be a chuunin maybe a month or so after becoming a genin at the chuunin exams, Temari also stated if he was not so lazy he could have becoming a jounin faster than she did. Also that when Asuma was resurrected with immortality and infinite chakara he was taken care of with mid diff by his squad once they worked up the guts to take him out. Asuma was just not impressive as a jounin and especially not an elite one, you are clinging to titles as a means of support for Asuma and Hidan being worthy fighters with no basis to back it up other than a meaningless title.

Neither did a lot of things in Naruto, like the limit on the chidori, Naruto and half his fights ect.

LOL Kisame would trash Hidan just like Itachi trashed Deidara.

Then show me because blitzing fodder is not impressive at all.

Nope. Intelligence and smarts don't automatically equal being stronger all the time otherwise. Also as for the Edo Tensei fight, it showed what we knew all along. Team 10 had more potential and as a team they surpassed Asuma. Shikamaru in particular showed more potential than Asuma since Part 1 but enough with Part 2 we are talking about PArt 1 where you stated to even consider Part 1 Shikamaru could even be better than Asuma.

If your point is correct then one of them should have been able to take on Asuma but they went as a team because they would lose one on one eventually sooner or later. Although Butterfly Chouji changed that after his emotional powerup.

Yes things don't make sense. Hello fiction. Hello real life.

Of course Kisame would trash Hidan overall but Asuma taking him on at least in taijutsu wise for a short time is an indication that shows his superiority to sound 4 which should be kind of obvious.

Why can't Asuma can't do better than those two fodder special jounins?

OF course though by your admission in this train of though when the sound jounin were chasing SHikamaru, Sakura, Naruto and Pakkun. SHikamaru should have been able to take care of those jounins quite better than Asuma did.

But nope instead they crapped their pants in chapter 118 and Shikamaru believe they would be annilihated and after his shadow ambush was running out of time in chakra Shikamaru figured he was going to die before he married and had a lazy life.

Asuma was already quite above chunins or below in part 1. Unless you are arguing CS1 Sasuke, Temari Shikamaru could have done the same.

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/119/9

@321zigzag1:

Too bad we don't know that he is capable of since every fight he is in he is in a team. And lol, why does being a taijutsu specialist mean he doesn't need help? He is a shinobi who works in squads, he needs as much help as any other shinobi. Not to mention he has no won a single fight even in a team.

I don't know and do not care, the evidence is on the paper, at the end of the day, Asuma has done nothing at all to put him within the rank of jounin. Asuma is a jounin because he is a character in the story with the purpose of having a squad 10 jounin leader. Unlike Kakashi who have no story of how he came to ranks, or how good he is, he showed little more than fodder material. The guy has nearly no showing. You are going by a title and nothing more, you have nothing to base it off of anyway.

You are the one said Asuma needs help. I said he is capable of fighting one on one. Being in teams and fighting alone are not always exclusive.

Then this debate is futile because you have the mindset of looking at his feats poor when anyone can look at any feats poor depending on relative context.

You were making a strict in-verse comparison. So unlike multiverse author's word play some more role. Not to mention by your logic CS1 Sasuke should do better against Kisame which is bonkers.

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Hahahaha!
Neji not even paying attention or having no reason to even move at full speed
was stopped by Hayate and the others, Hayate had already noticed before Neji
even moves. Lol how fast was he going, do you have a calc or evidence for the
speed you are going for?

.

Show
me, where it was said sakura was dodging via muscle movement and not speed.
Where it says Sasori was moving his puppets super fast as well.

Are you losing something mate?

Laughing doesn't change what I said. Neji didn't react. In fact that's how blitz or speed feats sometimes operates because speed feats are broad things.

What you now want calculations too? Let's go to OBD and later NBD together shall we on this? Although the latter hates calcs.

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/270/7

Reading Sasori's puppetry could have been more of an anime extension but it shows reading his attacks patterns regardless.

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

He
must have been if he got kicked and sat through an entire fight with Hidan and
Kakuzu before fighting again. Yes Kakashi must have been exhausted. However the
page I read had kakashi get up and block Hidan's assault... no good showing of
anything other than Hidan's mad swinging. Kakashi shook off Kakuzu's attack,
Hidan jumps at kakashi and Kakahsi parrys every one if Hidan's attacks. It
would be pointless for Kakashi with a kunai to attack Hidan like that because
while he would need to decapitate him while Hidan only needs a scratch and
Kakashi is done for. Kakashi was on the defensive.

But
yes he was tired from watching Hidan and Kakuzu fight after a kick.

It started with Azula and Hidan speed comparison but it has become into other things. However, this is a different thread. How about this, why don't you make a thread on what we discussed. Asuma vs those genins and those characters after all you made the claim.

In fact if I recall, you didn't even say why Asuma's or Hidan's or were bad. You just said they were bad because they were unimpressive but didn't really explain why. Then again by your admission Part 1 Shikamaru or CS Sasuke part can do better than Asuma against Hidan in part 2. Or at least I got out of here.

AS for this post.

Kakashi doesn't get that exhausted anymore if you are saying when he was exhausted after being kicked then anything can be interpreted as exhaustion. He was puzzled why Kakuzu wasn't dead but he wasn't exhausted.

We were debating why you think he was exhausted not why Kakashi defended himself so.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Because Asmua has no feats to say otherwise, you are using ABC logic for this, it doesn't work.

It depends on what you mean. You can't have speed without movement but at the same time there are exceptions. Let's say someone had an attack in which they needed to turn on a light bulb and unleash a light speed beam, I am like 2 feet away, the moment I see them reach for the switch I simply kick them in the chest. I don't need super speed for that. You are saying that Azula can't have dodged Toph's attacks without good speed, she can't have just used agility, I am telling you no significant speed was involved, it was just reacting to her obvious stances, it is memory and reaction, not speed, it does not mean speed was not involved, it simply was not a huge part of it, she didn't need good speed at all, just agility and good reactions that are superior to Toph's motions before bending. I tihnk the concept went over your head since we are going in circles with this.

Bottom line is, with this distance and terrain and that Hidan is in a 1V1 fight and has building level durability, he loses since all Toph needs to do is stomp the ground and open a fissure to crush Hidan in, or impale him with spikes, smash him with boulders, or metal bend his scythe. Toph has muscle reflex reaction time, she will know where hidan is at all times and can react and keep him form closing in, Hidan is not smart enough to figure out how to get past Toph's blindness like Aang did. Toph wins mid diff. It is not hard for Toph to incapacitate Hidan, skewering him with large rock spikes, or crushing him, or simply letting him fall into a fissure will be enough. OR trapping him with his own weapon with metal bending.

This is in-verse logic so it has to apply to an extent not to mention if we go by your way, it contradicts several things. Like I suppose then Part 1 Shikamaru should have been able to well against Hidan I suppose by your way of thinking yet Part 2 Shikamaru couldn't confront Hidan without a plan.

Speed matters if it there is enough difference to be exploited. You aren't wrong but they all play a role in a differentiating or varied wise. Hidan is quite faster than Azula and demonstrated more acrobats. While he lacks knowledge he has experience of evading things from the ground all of the sudden.

Oh that's fine I already acknowledged Hidan can lose that way. I just found it odd where people made it so easy.

Never saw anyone argue Asuma and Hidan are weaker than Part 1 Temari or CS1 Sasuke before. Strangest stance I ever seen. Last time I saw something similar was someone say Tsunade was weaker than Temari PArt because of lack of feats. (Before the 5 kage fight came along)

As for baseball, they do have speed training you know. Including bat velocity and bat swinging speed. Your baseball example usually works because the person in his experience can react to an extent and swing and the ball is next to him so speed doesn't usually matter as much here.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Because titles like Jounin, Captain, admiral ect. mean nothing after a while, just like power levels, bounties, and whatnot. Asuma is a jounin in title, nothing he has doen has put him on the scale of Gai or Kakashi, two other elite Jounin.

Yes titles don't mean much here all the time but there is no reason to believe otherwise.

Also its very fascinating that you believe you believe Asuma is weaker. Does that mean he is also weaker than PArt 1 Shikamaru too?

Do you not realize that doesn't make any sense either?

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Asuma even acknowledged the speed before blocking and was clearly breaking a sweat. He still wasn't blitzing Kisame, a guy faster than Hidan, and that is not saying much.

Yes because they were not that far from each other in Part 1 at least. They were all jounin or higher.

This is obvious. The fact Hidan could take on Kisame is much better than the other two special jounin.

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Lol you mean the two that were surrounding Shikamaru in part 1 that he basically assassinated?

No.

There were at least 9 ninjas. Asuma assassinated one in a blitz secretly then got the rest in a blitz.

Where did you get only two from? You must have forgotten there was a group chasing them.

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

That was clearly him by himself. He only worked as a team because he had no choice and wanted advantage and also wanted to ambush Akatsuki.
There comes a time when feats while most important in the context of in-verse logic you have to follow its hierarchy.

The fight started with everyone surprise attacking Hidan and them constantly working on a plan of attack, he didn't go in there alone, he had 3 people backing him up until the small part at the end. Not sure what you are trying to say in that second part.

Asuma being a taijutsu fighter doesn't always need help unless he needs it. In that one he felt he needed it.

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Yes because he has no feats to prove otherwise, you are going by titles I am going by what is shown, that is the difference here. I think my arguments holds more weight. AAlso most of the Rookies from part 1 were WELL above their level at the time, unless you believe the sound 4, Naruto vs Sasuke's fight, and the fight with Gaara were that of only Genin level ability

Yeah Gai, Kakashi, Asuma, Kurenai and Hayate stopped a distracted neji from killing Hinata, brilliant.

In this case I had no choice. Do you honestly believe Kishimoto would agree with you? However, I tried to show some feats here and there. But to be honest it makes utter no sense then ASuma to become a Jounin.

I never said that. The entire sasuke chase arc was to showcase the genin that they improved and showed chunin level of abilities or more. Gaara was likely Jounin and so was Kimimaro likely too by then

It was an example of speed regardless of whether you like it or not. Not to mention Neji had his Byakugan on at the time.

(Link to scanlation site removed) -Dream

If we follow your way of thinking we have to evaluate lot of things again. In Narutoverse logic Asuma is above them for obvious reasons. Not to mention those two special jounin are not stronger than Asuma because they lack showings too. In fact their poor showings are worse than Asuma's.

Yet they are better than Asuma? At least Asuma was keeping with Kisame and Hidan for a while.

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Except I was not talking about catching or hitting the ball, I was talking about moving out the way. Read the post again.

Sakura did not read Sasori's muscle movements or anything, all she was doing was running for her life and dodging incoming attack barley until Chiyo took over. Also Sasori's attacks had a large AoE and were a lot more predictable than Toph's bending.

Not really, Kakashi was simply parrying Hidan's attacks, and after he blocked kakuzu's attack

Kakashi even says he is pushing it and you can see he is exhausted.... Really, dude, this was emphasized, it's why they were getting worried, fighting them was costing a lot of energy, Hidan at full power was still only able to fight on par with a exhausted Kakashi. This is a tired argument because it's obvious Kakashi was tired. Hidan's speed is average at best.

Also manga is visual, if you can't plainly see he is exhausted just by looking then i dunno what to say, not everything needs to be spelled out:

Not in speed. all they need to do it cut his head off and he is done, in fact Asuma could have done that on their first encounter had it not been for Kakuzu.

You must have missed the part where Sakura was evading them and Chiyo was commenting on it even Sasori remarked on it if I recall. In fact it was supposed to be testament as part of her evasive skills she learned from Tsunade. Please reread that fight.

This is what occurred.

1. Kakuzu got his heart destroyed.

2. Kakahi got kicked away

3. Kakuzu unleashed his hearts

4. Hidan and Kakuzu fought. I am talking about this part. You think Kakashi was already exhausted by then now?

Then after the wind heart fire heart was released then hidan attacked Kakashi once more. The blur lines indicates measure of speed there too.

So you are saying Kakashi was tired by then?

Btw where did you read they were getting worried about his exhaustion etc.

He didn't look exhausted when Kakashi first clashed with Hidan before the wind heart that is obvious unless you are trying to argue Kakashi got exhausted after the kick.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Dodging requires some measure of speed. How else can you pull it off? You need to be fast enough. If you are too slow then that is that. So if speed wasn't a factor then Toph shouldn't have had a problem catching her.

I addressed this many times. Le tme make an example: a pitcher is about to throw a 100MPH fastball, you, being a experienced baseball player know the stance the pitcher takes before throwing, the moment the pitcher reels back for the windup you move to the side right BEFORE the pitcher throws. That would require speed no greater than a average person. it's the same thing that Azula did.

Also Kakashi was never exhausted nor panted in that fight.

He doesn't need to be panting, you clearly saw he exhausted a lot of energy, most mangakas don't put that much detail in their, it's kinda implied after he was panting from protecting the others, he is a ninja and works through that.

You misread what I said, I didn't say you say Azula was jounin level.

Wat? Please read the post right under this that you made.

By saying Hidan isn't much better than Azula you are pretty much implying Azula is near jounin level of speed which quite frankly I rarely see people push such arguments.

No I'm saying Hidan is not jounin level based on speed, you know that sad excuse for a jounin with the shades? Yeah is he really impressive? Was Genma, or hayate as well? No, don't bring a title up like it means anything. He is a S-Rank ninja because of his actions, this is like trying to say a certain character form One Piece is strong because of their bounty. And... did you really rip those emoticons from the Naruto forums...

Not a perfect example by the fact people have missed by swing too slow.

It's no different from sakura reading sasori's puppetry yet if she was too slow she would have been wounded much sooner.

You are forcing the panting issue. Kakashi did a raikiri blitz then got a kick. Then he fought Hidan. Yet he was already exhausted that quickly?

Hayate blitzed Genin Neji's attack you know. Sudden interception?

Also two special jounins also forced the SOund 4 into CS2 otherwise they would have lose. the same sound 4 who lost to the elite genin who were probably chunin at the point in ability.

Hidan is above all of them.

yet somehow Asuma is weaker than them and the 2 special jounin.

You can't just separate literally this and that you need all of them.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

@Dream said:

I can buy Avatar characters having some form of sonic speed in reactions as a legitimate case was shown a while back with Aang evading the beam attack of Combustion Man. But movement speed of that caliber and anything in hypersonic territory still pushes it.

I was referring to reaction speed/reflexes.

@321zigzag1:

Yeah by Akatsuki standards or elite jounin standards. So therefore....?
Your posts depend on Shikamaru and Asuma. Shikamaru used to be slow but in Part 2 he improved in speed. His shadow jutsu isn't that slow if it was able to catch Tobi.
Kakashi wasn't exhausted then. If he was he couldn't have done two raikiri's after. He was never panting the entire fight.

I'm pretty sure Kakashi just got done with a raikiri and protecting Ino and Choji from Kakuzu's attack. Shikamaru has NO credible speed feats, you say he got faster but we have no clue by how much. He is a tachtition, why would he be known for good speed with anything but jutsu?

Yes. Knowledge played a key role as I answered Spider earlier but you have to have the movements and agility to back it up. You cannot have one without the other.

You simply move before the attack happens, Toph must make the gestures before bending, Azula react to Toph GESTURES not her bending, something Hidan would have no knowledge of.

Ok the ambush worked partly as a distractiion point from the initial shadow jutsu which both ninjas' advanced senses picked up. Kunai was the result of the distraction, they both reacted to it easily though.
You need to read that chapter again. Hidan got trapped because Shikamaru already bound him. He used the sewing to bring the wires together.

My point was is that if that was enough of a distraction to get them then the ground itself attacking you should be more than Hidan has shown to react too. Also, can't Toph metal bend his scythe, rendering him useless?

That bender lightning is supersonic? Although that being you are talking more on reflex category I believe.
In that case I suppose I could bring the case of Zaku's airwaves being supersonic as so claimed and Genin Sasuke dodged it.
Temari in PArt 1 could react to sound waves as well.

It's not natural lightning but considering Iroh was able to react to such a thing and Zuko and Azula surpassing him by this point it should be close. Curse mark Sasuke from part 1>>Asuma, Temari is the same case. Hidan relies on immortality and Kakuzu and has no good speed feats to speak of, just because a feat was acted out from a earlier part does not mean everyone after that is superior. Asuma could barley even react to Kisame in their first meet and Kisame is supposed to be faster than Hidan. We have absolutely no progression of Asuma's skills from part 1 to part 2, so we can't just base his speed off of characters from part 1, especially characters that are superior to him. I don't doubt Asuma could beat Dosu, but then again Asuma is more of a planner and surprise attacker than a full on brawler, his entire team is based on teamwork and working together, Asuma has never really been in a one on one match, his best feat was giving a cut to Kisame's cheek when he was caught off guard. Tayuuya, curse seal Sasuke, and Temari from part 1 are more impressive than Asuma from any of his showing, I have no doubt they would beat him with mid difficulty.

That lightning feat. IT has been a source of controversy. Some say Iroh put him his arm then lightning went through him and he didn't seem to realize it until right after. I will say this he did seem bewildered.

Now now, why would Genin Sasuke or Temari being stronger than Asuma. Asuma is an elite jounin.

Barely react? He dodged fine actually after he got his arm shaved.

Asuma blitzed the sound fodder jounin ninja. Unless you are saying the genin can do the same.

That was clearly him by himself. He only worked as a team because he had no choice and wanted advantage and also wanted to ambush Akatsuki.

There comes a time when feats while most important in the context of in-verse logic you have to follow its hierarchy.

Now I see where this all comes from you think Asuma is weaker than Part 1 Genin or some of them.

Btw elite jounin easily intercepted Neji.

Also two special jounin who are weaker than ASuma managed to force Sound 4 into CS2 in order to win. The same Sound 4 who lost to the Genin.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1 said:

Not false, do you really think Asuma just forgot about his team despite his words? Shikamaru himself even admits that Asuma has to fight this guy while trying to protect the 3 of them, they are only chuunin, look at 4:22

I already addressed that Azula dodging Toph was not speed, Hidan is slow in general, he was tagged by almost everything thrown at him, he was only fighting on par with a exhausted kakashi. I never said Azula was Jousnin level at anything, please read the arguments again.

@Whats_out_the_bag: I don't think so but it is extremely fast, iroh reacted to natural lightning and Zuko should have surpassed him at this point, Azula was fighting on par with Zuko as well.

In that sense we are both correct in a sense. Asuma also admitted inferiority to both of them.

Asuma fighting Hidan with all out is in a way of protecting them. After Kakuzu wasn't attacking it was Hidan.

Protecting is a broad word after all.

Dodging requires some measure of speed. How else can you pull it off? You need to be fast enough. If you are too slow then that is that. So if speed wasn't a factor then Toph shouldn't have had a problem catching her.

Also Kakashi was never exhausted nor panted in that fight.

You misread what I said, I didn't say you say Azula was jounin level.

By saying Hidan isn't much better than Azula you are pretty much implying Azula is near jounin level of speed which quite frankly I rarely see people push such arguments.

@Kurohige said:

And all this was despite Asuma having to pay attention to keeping his team safe, keeping one eye on Kakuzu in case he decided to interfere, and having no knowledge until after he had one leg disabled by Hidan's curse so he couldn't move quickly. So basically, he's not super slow like Oonoki running on the ground carrying luggage or a typical genin, but he's relatively slow for a jounin but makes up for it with his curse, immortality, a giant scythe, taking advantage of ignorance of his abilities, sneak attacks, having Kakuzu as a distraction, and acrobatics. Nothing really better than Azula, Hidan also called himself the slowest member of the Akasuki.

Now that I am looking at your previous argument closer also this is false. If I recall Asuma told the other two keep on eye on them. He and Shikamaru kept full concentration on Hidan only. He wasn't keeping an eye on Kakuzu at all. Where did you get this from?

Also, argument on Azula on Hidan comparison depends on Hidan being slow but yet you have nothing on to support for Azula's speed.

This makes it invalid argument.

Hidan is slow by Akatsuki standards, it doesn't mean he is slow by Narutoverse standards.

Even fodder sound ninja jounin was able to blitz named main character Sakura when she was a genin or almost lop off genin Shikamaru's head before Asuma rescued him.

You have shown nothing to support Azula's speed yet you are implying indirectly she is near jounin level of speed. But the question is how?

Slow is relative.

@SpeedForceSpider

said:

@321zigzag1 said:

Not exactly. I did agree he had a decent amount of agility. However you're under the impression his speed is incredible. I can agree he is faster than the majority of the Narutoverse, but we have to still take into consideration the only people with decent speed feats are the top tiers.

Now I don't where you got that I said it was incredible. Considering I was going on a relative argument and I have said few times Hidan is slow by Akatsuki standards.

Depends on what you mean by "decent speed" because that is relative too.

But I will tell you casual faster than eye speed is something genin have been able to do.

@SpeedForceSpider said:

@321zigzag1 said:

More or less so. But still without knowledge, Hidan will still get grounded without knowing her abilities. It's because Azula has knowledge that she can utilize her agility and acrobatics. I am not really arguing for the fact that he cannot dodge it. I am arguing the fact that he won't know what's coming to him is all.

Whatever you say man.

Hidan didn't know what was coming to him from Asuma or Shikamaru yet he didn't have a problem. Considering the sewing was popping from the ground and stretching yet Hidan was able to figure it out.

So we agree that it needs both good.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Whats_out_the_bag said:

@Kurohige:

Isn't that lightning hypersonic.

Who knows to be honest but the higher it goes more outlier inconsistency it becomes.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

However it still doesn't answer the Azula question. We have to remember Hidan's movement speed was unimpressive by Akatsuki's standards. We are comparing two different verses.
You are basically saying Azula has jounin level of speed. Is this what we are trying to prove now?

No Hidan's movement speed is unimpressive at all. Did you read the parts in that post explaining that? Hidan was tagged by Shikamaru and Asuma multiple times, Hidan's only worthy speed feats are dodging Shikamaru's shadow jutsu, which is not known for it's speed at all, and fighting on par with a exhausted Kakashi.

Yeah by Akatsuki standards or elite jounin standards. So therefore....?

Your posts depend on Shikamaru and Asuma. Shikamaru used to be slow but in Part 2 he improved in speed. His shadow jutsu isn't that slow if it was able to catch Tobi.

Kakashi wasn't exhausted then. If he was he couldn't have done two raikiri's after. He was never panting the entire fight.

@Kurohige

said:

@321zigzag1:

Azula dodged Toph because Toph must make gestures and movements like any other bender and Azula, being an expert bender and trained since she was a child knows about this, all she needs to do is watch Toph's movement and stances and brace herself to move accordingly.What I am saying is that Azula avoiding Toph's bending is not a means for basing Toph's bending speed nor hidan's ability to react to it. Hidan AND Kakuzu were hit by an ambush of explosive Kunai from the trees and Hidan himself was caught in a trap set by Shikamaru that sprung from the ground, it would be similar with Toph, only instead of wires and paper bombs it would be earth, less predictable and faster.

Yes. Knowledge played a key role as I answered Spider earlier but you have to have the movements and agility to back it up. You cannot have one without the other.

Ok the ambush worked partly as a distractiion point from the initial shadow jutsu which both ninjas' advanced senses picked up. Kunai was the result of the distraction, they both reacted to it easily though.

You need to read that chapter again. Hidan got trapped because Shikamaru already bound him. He used the sewing to bring the wires together.

@Kurohige said:

@321zigzag1:

Aang, Zuko, Amon, Azula and Kitara have not only reacted to Lightning of Firebenders, but they actually out moved it >_>

I have 2 feats alone of reacting after the Super Sonic Lightning hits. Iroh has also done the same as has Azula.

That bender lightning is supersonic? Although that being you are talking more on reflex category I believe.

In that case I suppose I could bring the case of Zaku's airwaves being supersonic as so claimed and Genin Sasuke dodged it.

Temari in PArt 1 could react to sound waves as well.

Post by 321zigzag1 (637 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Battles » Toph vs Hidan

@Kurohige said:

And all this was despite Asuma having to pay attention to keeping his team safe, keeping one eye on Kakuzu in case he decided to interfere, and having no knowledge until after he had one leg disabled by Hidan's curse so he couldn't move quickly. So basically, he's not super slow like Oonoki running on the ground carrying luggage or a typical genin, but he's relatively slow for a jounin but makes up for it with his curse, immortality, a giant scythe, taking advantage of ignorance of his abilities, sneak attacks, having Kakuzu as a distraction, and acrobatics. Nothing really better than Azula, Hidan also called himself the slowest member of the Akasuki.

Now that I am looking at your previous argument closer also this is false. If I recall Asuma told the other two keep on eye on them. He and Shikamaru kept full concentration on Hidan only. He wasn't keeping an eye on Kakuzu at all. Where did you get this from?

Also, argument on Azula on Hidan comparison depends on Hidan being slow but yet you have nothing on to support for Azula's speed.

This makes it invalid argument.

Hidan is slow by Akatsuki standards, it doesn't mean he is slow by Narutoverse standards.

Even fodder sound ninja jounin was able to blitz named main character Sakura when she was a genin or almost lop off genin Shikamaru's head before Asuma rescued him.

You have shown nothing to support Azula's speed yet you are implying indirectly she is near jounin level of speed. But the question is how?

Slow is relative.

Mandatory Network

Submissions can take several hours to be approved.

Save ChangesCancel