Persona 4: The Animation Forum

Nothing to contribute to the subject on hand I guess, but I can't believe that episode 7 is already on Kanji's "dungeon" as it were.

I know for a Fact That Japans LGBT policies are a bit prejudiced compared to other Countries as can be shown by the statements of one Shintaro Ishihara govenor of Tokyo (That man should burn in the fire of every religious representation of hell there is) However I really don't think the episode was that offensive to homosexuals. To me the reactions of both Yosuke and Yuu weren't That Far off from the reactions of the Average straight Teenage Boy . Not to sound heartless but anyone who reads too deeply into their reactions and feels offended probably has a hard time veiwing any sort of video entertainment in General .This episode though is going into my List of all time favourites the last time my sides Hurt from watching an anime was probably Arakawa under the bridge episode 3.

I was extremely satisfied with this episode. They really played up the mild homophobia of our male characters in the episode, which, while perhaps "uncomfortable," helps define them far more. I think that was always the relationship they expected the player to have with Kanji; we're supposed to be a little uncomfortable with Kanji's dungeon because most high-schoolers worldwide are a little uncomfortable with homosexuality in general. Now, I'm not saying that most of us DIDN'T come at the dungeon with a larger world-view than that (I actually didn't like Yosuke for a while because he's kind of a homophobe) but it puts Yu in the position they maybe always expected.

All this talk about Kanji's dungeon really makes hard to wait until Rise's. I can imagine a pseudo-role reversal with Yosuke (and maybe Yu) extremely fired up about going and not wanting to rush through with the girls having to kick them into gear as opposed to the guys wanting to just forget about Kanji and leave.

In a way, I can relate to Kanji's fears. The Shadow is basically what he's afraid others will see him as if they knew about his hobbies. That he likes to draw, sew, and likes cute things. When I was in school, people gave me some crap because I liked to draw and I can sew. Hell, a few years back I made some Roman shades for my bedroom. I just didn't care what people thought about me, but it did make dating difficult being both short and looking younger for my age.

This episode makes me wish we were doing this as a podcast.

@Hachikuji:

Yes, Japan has issues with homosexuality, but they are far better than some African nations that want to make it a crime punishable by death. Those become even more disturbing when you discover some of those laws are being sponsored by religious groups in the U.S.

Western media is hypocritical when it comes to gays and lesbian characters. Lesbians have it better in comics, but gay men are treated as more tokens, who almost never get any spotlight or stories. I remember reading after Marvel had Shatterstar kiss Rictor that Shatterstar's original creator was not happy about that. We also see it in movies. A straight actor can play a gay man and people applaud, but when does an openly gay man get cast to be the male romantic lead in a guy/girl relationship? It's acting. Their personal life shouldn't mean anything.

@Little_Socrates:

I think Nick's main point was the cast's reactions to Kanji's Shadow.

It was easily the funniest episode so far. I rarely say this, but I laughed out loud when Yosuke and MC summoned their Personas early (and later Chie) since the game always let the shadow monologue without interference.

@Hailinel said:

I saw nothing wrong with the depiction of Shadow Kanji or his buds, Nice Guy and Tough Guy. Shadows are not meant to represent the whole of a person's psyche. They're only a fragment twisted out of proportion. Shadows are meant to be over the top in their manifestations of what concepts they represent. For Kanji, that representation happens to be an oversexed, effeminate homosexual. For Chie, it was a controlling dominatrix. For Yukiko, it was a princess looking for a prince to take her away (and take other things, as well). All three of these Shadows twist the sides of their respective wholes into something sexually over the top, and this is to say nothing of the Shadows that come after in Rise and Naoto.

To be offended by the representation of Kanji in his Shadow is to sell the nature of the Shadow short; whether or not Kanji is actually homosexual is immaterial to the discussion. He's a teenager that's frustrated by the way others treat him and confused about what it is he truly desires. Is he gay? Straight? Bi? His attraction to Naoto, who herself is a non-traditional model of her gender, adds to his confusion. Is he attracted to her because she acts masculine? Is his attraction to her as a person regardless of her feminine traits, or lack thereof? He doesn't know, and that's perfectly understandable given where he is at that point in his life.

"Offended" is the wrong word - "uncomfortable" would be better. As I said in the article, there's an argument to be made that these exaggerated, unreal gay stereotypes fit the Shadow model perfectly. Either way, though, seeing that same Japanese hackneyed depiction of gays is a little exhausting.

Still, like Kris pointed out below, my main problem was with the cast's reactions to the Shadows. I don't think of Yu, Chie, Yukiko and Yosuke (well, okay, maybe Yosuke) as being homophobic at all, and the bafflingly angry reactions all four of them had to Shadow Kanji felt at odds with the characters as I've come to know them.

@Hailinel said:

I also appreciated the way that the episode tapped into Kanji's Social Link by working elements into the pre-bath house section of the story. It was able to fit an important element of Kanji's character seemlessly into the exposition, and in this case, did a better job than the game in demonstrating the level of skill Kanji actually has in his chosen hobby.

Agreed! I thought that was an elegant solution that condensed his Social Link down to a few minutes without feeling rushed or anything. They handled that tremendously well, I thought.

@golguin said:

It was easily the funniest episode so far. I rarely say this, but I laughed out loud when Yosuke and MC summoned their Personas early (and later Chie) since the game always let the shadow monologue without interference.

I think the fact that the battle music started playing (and then suddenly tape-stopped) was the bit that sealed it for me. Them getting all meta and self-referential and messing with our expectations of them is something I hope we haven't seen the last of!

I really enjoyed this episode too. But I swear Yu and Yosuke just got their bums pinched. I don't think he put his finger up there...

@Hailinel said:

@dixperiken said:

I really enjoyed this episode too. But I swear Yu and Yosuke just got their bums pinched. I don't think he put his finger up there...

As a friend of mine put it in describing the scene, they got kancho'd.

Not quite accurate, thankfully.

I always found it weird that people use the word "homophobe" in relation to scenes in Kanji's dungeon. Like they say, it's not paranoia if they're really out to get you. I'm not afraid of homosexuals (homophobia), but if I had to enter a place like Kanji's dungeon, where there were large muscled men/shadows intent on assrape... I would think twice about entering.

People are way too sensitive about some issues - though personally I don't get offended by anything (Jimmy Carr is one of my favourite comedians). If I did, it would be the stuff that seems malicious, which Persona 4 hijinks are definitely not.

@Hailinel said:

@Babylonian: I think that all of the characters acted appropriate for the situation that they were in. Yosuke's evidenced homophobia from the game aside, it's easy to see even someone that isn't homophobic pausing before entering the bathhouse. As Dunchad noted, Shadow Kanji and his buds weren't just exuding homosexual vibes; Nice Guy and Tough Guy in particular molested Yu and Yosuke. Yukiko would have likely been the voice of reason in the group had she not been embarrassed and enraged by the idea that her own Shadow had behaved in just as sexually explicit a manner.

So no one is strictly acting with a homophobic attitude here. I imagine that most people wouldn't approach an oversexed, supernatural caricature of someone they know without expressing obvious hesitance at the very least.

That's not really a fair depiction you're painting, though, is it? The butt stuff didn't even happen until the final battle, and their entire way through the dungeon everyone - all four characters - were bursting at the seams to wreck this dude. The team was busting out their Personas early and entertaining leaving Kanji in the dungeon all before anything had happened other than Shadow Kanji being flamboyantly gay near them.

They weren't "pausing before entering the bathhouse," they were uncharacteristically out for blood for no real reason other than that this character was acting "too gay" or whatever. That kind of sucks!

Still, on second viewing, I'm a little less perturbed by it than I was initially. It can be mostly brushed aside as high schoolers being high schoolers, I think. Still, the premise of this column is to document our initial reactions to the episode, and my first impression was "Man, this is a little disappointing," and overall, I still feel that way about the general tenor of this episode, which at best can be taken as "be gay if you want, but don't 'act like it'."

Just wanted to say that I've been loving this feature, it's great! I have not missed an episode of P4A and it's nice to get some thoughts on it from both you @Babylonian and @FoxxFireArt, keep up the good work.

@Babylonian said:

Still, on second viewing, I'm a little less perturbed by it than I was initially. It can be mostly brushed aside as high schoolers being high schoolers, I think. Still, the premise of this column is to document our initial reactions to the episode, and my first impression was "Man, this is a little disappointing," and overall, I still feel that way about the general tenor of this episode, which at best can be taken as "be gay if you want, but don't 'act like it'."

Yep, this is basically what I think. Its pretty messed up when you think about it this way: Yu Narukami accepted the fact that Kanji likes "cute shit", but at no point in that entire exchange, and especially if you look at the episode, does he accept Kanji's flamboyant alter ego(which is his sexual confusion, rage and loneliness personafied). I mean.....not only would that make Yu no different from the people who used to judge Kanji for not fitting into normal japanese gender roles, it even affirms them. It really makes it seem, like you said, that the episode is saying "its okay to like cute things....as long as you don't act like an icky homosexual". The investigation team is even treated as justified for hating the flamboyant shadow(they get no negative consequences like making it stronger or whatever, which should have happened).

Not that the stuff in this episode was the worst thing ever or the most homophobic piece of fiction imaginable(like Bakuman and sexism), its simply the part where the source material is, like, one of the 3 videogames in existence that acknowledges LGBT issues. And doesn't make a total mockery of its gay character. Besides, why is Kanji's shadow the only one who got this treatment?

...I mean fucking Yukiko got an entire episode with dramatic jpop, on top of birdcage symbolism and shit. Yosuke and Chie's shadows(and hey, look at it this way: did we get shitty dominantrix jokes the entire episode?) were billed as much more threatening opponents as well. Why is Kanji the only that got turned into a circus attraction?

@Hailinel said:

At no point do any of the characters state that, nor is that the message I got from the episode. The flamboyant homosexual that is Shadow Kanji is, once again, not representative of the whole. It's just a part of him that's twisted out of proportion

And that part of him is thoroughly rejected in the anime. The part that represents Kanji´s sexual confusion is the butt end of gay jokes and nothing else. He´s treated like a monster and the characters all have a bizarre, seething rage for him simply because he's flamboyant(Please don't spin this into "acting a little awkward")and the men fear him because "oh no he's gay he's gonna rape us in the butt".

Again, Yu Narukami accepts the fact that Kanji "likes cute shit", but does he accept the sexual confusion? Looking at this episode, that aspect of Kanji's personality is reduced to nothing more than a joke. You can handwave this away as them acting like a bunch of twats(IE:teenagers) but that's not the investigation team's role in the story at all. They're supposed to be a group of misfits who accept someone regardless of what society around them says-- that means not doing the exact same thing which lead to the creation of Shadow Kanji in the first place.

Yosuke(who gets berated by Chie for his dickish behavior against Kanji in the game) is supposed to be the exception, not the rule.

Oh, and before this comes up: No, I wouldn't have wanted them to cheesily yell at Kanji "we acceppppttt youuu~!" and wrap their arms around him in a group hug(though it wouldn't be that out of place looking at some parts of the Yukiko episode..), here's a start:

Don't have the investigation team erupt into blind rage and try to kill him simply because he introduced himself flamboyantly. (I laughed at the scene, though, even if I felt pretty bad about it.)

Is he? Maybe, but he's at a point in his life where he's trying to figure things out. To paint him as 100% positively gay is not doing justice to the complexity of the character.

Uhhh...sure? Don't see how that's relevant to the discussion.

Also, we have no idea how the other dungeons are going to play out. We've still got a flipping strip club to go through, if that says anything. The point is, these Shadows are not meant to paint a positive portrait of the characters they spawned from.

I don't see how anything you said changes that his shadow is the only given the comedy treatment so far. Will Rise, Naoto and Teddie get the comedy treatment too? We don't know yet, but I can only speak of what we've seen so far, and so far: Yosuke got a serious episode, Chie got a serious episode, Yukiko got a serious episode, and Kanji didn't.

Unrelated for a second: Is it just me, or is Yu Narukami's friendship speech of the week(TM) the lamest thing ever? Only the Yukiko episode felt like it actually took more then Yu saying "I think you're pretty cool".