Persona 4: The Animation Forum

@TopographicOcean said:

Don't get me wrong, this whole under-age Idol culture and fanservice issue in Japan still stands.

Good, then what's the point with bringing up the west? The only person comparing the two cultures was FoxxFireart for one post, and then he dropped it. This is a column about a Japanese cartoon, and this discussion spawned from the writer saying a certain aspect of JP culture bothers him.

No one is saying the west is innocent, we're just talking about this extremely specific instance of Japanese culture.

@TopographicOcean said:

Maybe I'm wrong, and Japan itself has the real problem and ours is negligible. With that decided, why the hell bother watching anime? If it's THAT much of a problem to you and as a whole? Watching anime with fanservice you disagree with isn't going to get rid of it. If anything, it's selling out. Your morals and principles must not be worth much if you keep watching despite the fact you disagree with the content. Not implying anyone talking here does this, but it happens and it's worth a mention considering the conversation.

Or maybe fanservice just isn't morally repugnant enough to make me stop watching anime completely. Its kind of gross and pathetic, but its a symptom of a greater problem more than anything. I'd never watch something completely horrible like Strike Witches, but if it crops up in an otherwise good anime, then I deal with it.

If you think that makes me a "sellout", well......whatever.

(not that I actually watch much anime these days-- "moe" kinda destroyed it in my eyes.)

@TopographicOcean said:

Which brings me something else... The entire discussion would have been a lot more intriguing and thought provoking if it didn't dissolve into snide comments and condescension. I honestly do hate to sound preachy, but this could have actual been a good way to talk about these issues... And look what happened.

I think the conversation so far has been pretty good, not sure what you're talking about. Though I'm not up for writing long blocks of text anymore...

@Hailinel: That was in response to "it'll probably be for the purpose of looking cute." with regards to having Nanako strike a pose. I used an example of blatant sexualization to get to the core of the argument.

@mutha3 said:

Or, you know, shy anime girls. Otaku tend to like those.

Frankly, I'm not buying it. You want to claim that scene wasn't meant to be sexually provocative? Then tell me, what was the reason we got a long pan across their legs up to their chests, while they were blushing? Why did the same happen with Chie's legs one episode later? Why did Chie and Yukiko slide on their butts in jelly with Shadow Kanji? Why was the scene where Shadow Rise undid her bra necessary?

The answer to all of the above: Fanservice. Where does Fanservice come from? Who is it aimed at? Why can't you pick up a single anime these days without constantly being assaulted by it?

Wait, so depictions of girls being shy is now considered a sexual assault on your senses now?

If the Chie scene you are referring to is the one I'm thinking of, again, that is a sexual assault on your senses now?

The bath house scene was just down right slapstick comedy stupid. What are they suppose to slide on? Their chest or back? What's your preference?

Shadow Rise is grotesque, not sexually provocative. I'll just keep repeating that line.

Well, if you consider the first two lines of this response being a sexual assault on your senses, then no, you can't pick up most media without being assaulted by it. Sorry to break it to you.

@mutha3 said:

@Hailinel: That was in response to "it'll probably be for the purpose of looking cute." with regards to having Nanako strike a pose. I used an example of blatant sexualization to get to the core of the argument.

Except that wasn't Nanako posing, and neither was the pose blatant sexualization, but a depiction of the grotesque.

@Turambar said:

@mutha3 said:

Or, you know, shy anime girls. Otaku tend to like those.

Frankly, I'm not buying it. You want to claim that scene wasn't meant to be sexually provocative? Then tell me, what was the reason we got a long pan across their legs up to their chests, while they were blushing? Why did the same happen with Chie's legs one episode later? Why did Chie and Yukiko slide on their butts in jelly with Shadow Kanji? Why was the scene where Shadow Rise undid her bra necessary?

The answer to all of the above: Fanservice. Where does Fanservice come from? Who is it aimed at? Why can't you pick up a single anime these days without constantly being assaulted by it?

Wait, so depictions of girls being shy is now considered a sexual assault on your senses now?

If the Chie scene you are referring to is the one I'm thinking of, again, that is a sexual assault on your senses now?

The bath house scene was just down right slapstick comedy stupid. What are they suppose to slide on? Their chest or back? What's your preference?

Shadow Rise is grotesque, not sexually provocative. I'll just keep repeating that line.

Well, if you consider the first two lines of this response being a sexual assault on your senses, then no, you can't pick up most media without being assaulted by it. Sorry to break it to you.

Me@

edit: n/m, don't really feel like carrying this debate on.

@Turambar said:

It's less me being ok with pedophilia as it is me not giving a damn when the character is a 2d fictional character in a setting where their actual age is not given any focus at all. The idea that we are going to be all protective over fake girls on our computer screens has always been and will always be retarded as far as I'm concerned when the line between ok and not ok has always seemed to rest on the thin line of what age the game tells you she is. If the game made it a big deal that the reason why guys should get their rocks off is because they are under aged, then you might actually have a point. In this case, you do not.

I can't lie: this whole "whatever maaaan age is just a number" approach to this problem kind of makes my skin crawl, and is the reason bans like this get proposed.

@TopographicOcean said:

However, it's frankly just as disturbing, to me at least, the Western depiction of teens and children. In the west, they act much more subtle way, using the tired old teenage stereotypes that basically act as a self-fulfilling prophecy, creating legions of idiots that think The Secret Life of the American Teenager is actually supposed to be a blueprint for how their life works. Delightful. That's really healthy huh? You'd like to think more people understood that this was entertainment and not reality, but they don't.

Is the problem as 'in your face' as, say, Rise's boobs? Nope. Is it a disgusting and reprehensible abuse of teens and children? I'd argue that it is.

And, once again, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Japan doesn't have it's own problems. What I am saying is that people getting all flustered about Japan's problems usually aren't looking the West's own problems. People LOVE to pick the crap out of countries other than their own more than do their own. It happens here in Australia all the time. The kings of racism down here pretty much.

There are totally things that are creepy about the West! Whether that's really apropos to this discussion, I'm not entirely sure. Either way, I still think Japan has much more severe problem with this than we do. We've got a misguided parent dressing up her daughter as a prostitute from a movie, they've got (as @zaldar pointed out) a six year old girl modeling bikinis on DVDs whose marketability to people who aren't pedophiles is nonexistent. We've got Britney Spears circa 1999, they've got an entire idol culture built around sexualizing innocence and, frequently, adolescent children.

Are there examples of tastelessness on both sides? Sure. Is the Western depiction of teens "just as disturbing"? I don't think you can really say it is!

@TopographicOcean said:

Maybe I'm wrong, and Japan itself has the real problem and ours is negligible. With that decided, why the hell bother watching anime? If it's THAT much of a problem to you and as a whole? Watching anime with fanservice you disagree with isn't going to get rid of it. If anything, it's selling out. Your morals and principles must not be worth much if you keep watching despite the fact you disagree with the content. Not implying anyone talking here does this, but it happens and it's worth a mention considering the conversation.

I don't think that argument holds any water, though. Liking anime and being uncomfortable when kids are sexualized are not two mutually exclusive things, and the implication that they are is kind of chilling. This "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THEN YOU CAN GIIIIIT OUT" approach doesn't solve anything! Obviously, there are shows that do this, and there are shows that don't. Buying Trigun or whatever on DVD is neither directly nor indirectly supporting creepy bullshit like Strike Witches. To throw your hands up and just be like "Oh, anime! Guess this just comes with the territory!" is a bit irresponsible.

Whatever the answer to this problem is, it isn't "put up or shut up." The point of this column is for us to watch this show and chronicle our feelings on each episode, and it something happens that makes me uncomfortable, I plan on writing about it!

@Hailinel said:

@mutha3 said:

@Hailinel: That was in response to "it'll probably be for the purpose of looking cute." with regards to having Nanako strike a pose. I used an example of blatant sexualization to get to the core of the argument.

And I'll say again, you're response was a picture of Shadow Rise.

Shadow.

Rise.

You are comparing two individuals that could not be further apart in terms of their characterization. One is a six-year-old girl who is remarkable for her combination of innocence and maturity. The other is a fragment of a troubled teeenager's psyche given physical form.

What about the fact that the episode opens with about a full minute of tight shots on the literally bouncing bikini-clad boobs and ass of this 16-year-old girl we're talking about? No male gaze there? Nothing fanservice-y about that?

But still, yeah, whatever, fine, that's Shadow Rise, they're showing off her ass and tits ironically, sure, whatever. How do you explain with the fact that this show sexualized Chie and Yukiko two episodes ago? Or is a slow pan up their 16-year-old, bikini-clad adolescent bodies somehow okay for a reason that I'm missing?

@TopographicOcean said:

Hell, I couldn't even get through more than an episode of Puella Magi Madoka Magica without feeling weird and dropped it.

B-b-but I like Puelli Magi Madoka :(

Yeah, the opening is weird and so are several moments of that show(especially episode 1&2), but it has a really nice sense of style and its a brilliant deconstruction of the magical girl anime genre. Some of the later episodes of that show are really creepy- I don't mean in the "oh god i hope no one i know sees me watching this"-kind-of-creepy- I mean, genuinely disconcerting.

For a show about magical 14 year olds, its goddamn pessimistic.If you're still up for it, I'd give it until episode 3.

I know @Babylonian: was absolutely smitten with how Bakemonogatari looked. Definitely check Madoka out if you were into those visuals. Same crew made this(SHAFT).

@TopographicOcean: I think one thing I've done a bad job of communicating is that I think the depiction of Rise is at least partially satirical. P4A is absolutely not anywhere close to the worst offender in the "underage fanservice" issue. I also feel like it's something that does exist in this show, though, so there ya go.

Honestly, I wish I knew a bit more about the 'loli ban' so I could have a better-informed opinion on it, but I'm pretty sure I'm okay with it. It seems crazy to me that all these people would get up in arms over people taking away their 'right' to look at underage cartoons engaged in sexual acts. But that's just me. I totally see the get slippery-slope, first-amendment argument against it, but like, it's cartoon porn of kids they're banning. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and if that's where we draw it, I have no problem with that!

@mutha3: Ugh, I reeeeaaaaally wanna watch Madoka Magica! I'm gonna make myself finish P4A and Bakemonogatari first, but after that, it's at the top of my list. I'm trying to keep myself as much in-the-dark about its contents as possible, because everyone says that it's a show that's best to go into blind.

@TopographicOcean said:

@mutha3:

I think I'll have to take that advice. I was more worried at where the show was going to go rather than what was exactly going on in the first episode. I must have taken the cutesy, charming setting the wrong way or something. Clearly I should have stuck around for another episode at least.

Awesome. I'm sure you'll like it based on what you just said.

@Babylonian said:

@mutha3: Ugh, I reeeeaaaaally wanna watch Madoka Magica! I'm gonna make myself finish P4A and Bakemonogatari first, but after that, it's at the top of my list. I'm trying to keep myself as much in-the-dark about its contents as possible, because everyone says that it's a show that's best to go into blind.

That's true, but here's the thing about Madoka: if you tell someone to go in completely blind, they might get a totally wrong impression of what that show is all about and drop it. It always needs to be with the added caveat of "don't judge this show on its first couple of episodes, keep going."

On that note, the extent they went to cover up what type of show Madoka really is was AMAZING. All footage, screenshots and interviews leading up to its release gave you the impression that its just another Magical Girl anime. They even tried(and failed) to hide who the writer was.

@Hailinel said:

To start with, what happened at the start of the episode was still Shadow Rise. The events that take place aren't any different than what happens in the game. The only difference is that it's animated this time.

Yeah! I know that it's Shadow Rise! Here's the point:

(click for the animated version)

This is getting a little drawn out, so here's my point: they are using a 16 year old girl for weird, creepy fanservice. The above GIF is, I think, undeniable evidence of that. I think it's a gross thing for them to do!

On the other hand, I went back and watched that moment from the camping trip episode, and while the camera does do a slow pan up their bodies, it's really not as egregious as I remember it. It's slightly uncomfortable that they force the audience to check out the half-naked bodies of these teenagers, but in the spectrum of creepy shit anime does, it's barely a blip on the radar. (Also: man, I almost forgot what an awesome episode that was. Yu falling into the water expressionless? Gets me every time.)

@Hailinel: Since when is fanservice about what makes sense consistently in the story? Why do all the characters in Outlaw Star up and go to the hot springs halfway through the show? Why does the highly specific phrase "episode where they go to the hot springs" have 1,670 results on Google? Fanservice in anime has never ever been about remaining logical in a show's universe: it's about showing the audience something 'sexy,' by any means necessary.

If, somehow, the fact that it's an evil 16-year-old's bouncing tits and ass somehow invalidates that it's overtly and undeniably intended to be titillating, you haven't explained why yet.