Amateur vs. Expert: PERSONA 4 #10

Topic started by Guest_Author on Dec. 12, 2011. Last post by Hailinel 2 years, 9 months ago.
Post by mutha3 (17 posts) See mini bio Level 6

@FoxxFireArt:

This isn't a dick measuring contest between the east and west, FoxxFireArt. Yeah, we can be pretty bad about this stuff as well, but Anime has got the art of sexualizing teenagers down to a cinch. Its inescapable. Its not a few borderline cases here and there, its like, whenever I pick up an anime 9/10 times it will probably have this stuff.

Also, bringing up Toddlers & Tiaras is, well.....disingenuous at best. Its target audience is not pedophiles, but starry-eyed woman. You're right in that its incredibly gross, either way, but claiming its intended to be sexually provocative is super silly.

@Turambar said:

@Babylonian said:

if you weren't made at least a little bit uncomfortable by the slow, lingering pan up Chie and Yukiko's bikini-clad bodies during the field trip episode, our standards for the appropriate depiction of 16-year-old girls are apparently pretty different.

I'll take that on gladly. It's less me being ok with pedophilia as it is me not giving a damn when the character is a 2d fictional character in a setting where their actual age is not given any focus at all.

So if Nanako would have gotten the same treatment you would have been OK with it as long as the characters drooling over her were of similar ages and did not do so because she was underage? Good to know.

@PewPewLazers: The Soejima Official Works got a nice little interview with the man at the end of the book, but it mostly consist of images and concept art. Nice to look at if you're a big Soejima fan, but probably not worth it if you own the Japanese version already.

Post by fluxwavez (4 posts) See mini bio Level 6

@Little_Socrates: But that doesn't explain why Jiraiya is an appropriate representation of Yosuke's Shadow or Persona.

Post by mutha3 (17 posts) See mini bio Level 6

@fluxwavez said:

@Little_Socrates: But that doesn't explain why Jiraiya is an appropriate representation of Yosuke's Shadow or Persona.

Yosuke gets sarcastically referred to as "the prince of Junes" by the townspeople. He resents that title and wants to get out, I guess? Y'know, the frog gets kissed by a princess and then he turns into a prince?

Only this time the frog got dumped like a sack of bricks and told he's a pain in the ass

Post by FoxxFireArt (2,643 posts) See mini bio Level 25
Moderator

@mutha3:

I just get irritated that people frequently hold anime to a higher standard. Yeah, there are anime series that sexualize teens, but they are fictional characters. Drawings.

9/10 is a gross over exaggeration.

Also, bringing up Toddlers & Tiaras is, well.....disingenuous at best. Its target audience is not pedophiles, but starry-eyed woman. You're right in that its incredibly gross, either way, but claiming its intended to be sexually provocative is super silly.

I repeat, a real child dressed as a prostitute. Why did that show not get canceled after that??

There was an anime series that was sexualizing young girls like this, and it got canceled after a few episodes.

Post by Little_Socrates (45 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@mutha3 said:

@fluxwavez said:

@Little_Socrates: But that doesn't explain why Jiraiya is an appropriate representation of Yosuke's Shadow or Persona.

Yosuke gets sarcastically referred to as "the prince of Junes" by the townspeople. He resents that title and wants to get out, I guess? Y'know, the frog gets kissed by a princess and then he turns into a prince?

Only this time the frog got dumped like a sack of bricks and told he's a pain in the ass

Jiraiya's story is, unfortunately, hard to find. However, Jiraiya's battle with Orochimaru is already somewhat based on Susano-o's battle with Yamata no Orochi, so in some sense Jiraiya is in and of himself a representation of Susano-o. There's a lineage to the stories.

Post by Hailinel (76 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@Babylonian said:

@Hailinel said:

"Like you point out, there was a ton of really potent fanservice in there, and I don't mean all the Shadow Rise stripping stuff (which: really, Japan? She's a high schooler, for Christ's sake!)."

Really? You're going the "Oh, Japan!" route for the depiction of a fragment of Rise's personality based on a twisted aspect of her psyche?

Talk about taking the lazy way out.

You're right! There was absolutely no evidence of the male gaze directed at a 16-year-old girl in this episode. It's not like they've managed to show Rise in a bikini in every single episode she's appeared in so far - even the first one, which she wasn't even actually in! Nope, nothing weird going on here. Also, while we're on the topic: adult men watching K-On! and fawning over 14-year-old cartoon girls, calling them their "waifus" and stuff? Nothing uncomfortable about that either!

The blatant sexualization of teenagers is something I openly resent about anime, and while P4A is far from the worst aggressor, but I don't think we need to go around awarding this show any medals for its treatment of Rise. You're right that in the context of this episode they aren't really cheerleading for any of this stuff, but man, they sure did take every opportunity to show off this kid's body, didn't they? So far, she's practically spent more time undressed than dressed, and while I expect that to change as this show goes on, it's not like Rise's been the only victim of this - if you weren't made at least a little bit uncomfortable by the slow, lingering pan up Chie and Yukiko's bikini-clad bodies during the field trip episode, our standards for the appropriate depiction of 16-year-old girls are apparently pretty different.

As others have said, the west is not innocent when it comes to sexual depictions of teenagers. And as has been said before, Shadow Rise is hardly an accurate representation of Rise Kujikawa as a whole. It is a perversion of a part of herself, just as Shadow Yukiko is a princess looking to get laid, as Shadow Chie is a dominatrix, and Shadow Kanji is a cock-hungry fruit of a homosexual. Even Naoto's Shadow, which we have yet to see in the series itself, is a twisted representation of her gender identity.

Further, Shadow Rise is not meant to titillate. She is meant to disgust and horrify; Rise herself finds her disgusting and horrifying. To promote any sort of agenda of pedophilia would be to depict Shadow Rise as a desirable thing. The show most definitely does not do this, and to use this episode as an example of "WTF Japan stop being pervs" is, in my mind, ridiculous. That's not to say that it isn't an issue, but to use this show as a platform for that platitude is an empty gesture; just as empty as it's become to spout "Oh, Japan," in a condescending tone any time something peculiar pops up in a piece of Japanese media.

And for what it's worth, I used to watch episodes of the Morning Musume TV program "Hello Morning" when I was in the anime club in college. It was hardly pandering in the manner that you describe. Hell, it was downright innocent next to a teenage Britney Spears dancing in a Catholic Schoolgirl outfit for a music video.

I think my frustration from this is the hypocritical nature that the west takes toward Japan in respects like this. We tell them "Don't do that!" when we're just as guilty, if not more so, of pandering in ways that other cultures would find offensive, if not members of our very own.

Post by Turambar (233 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@mutha3 said:

@Turambar said:

@Babylonian said:

if you weren't made at least a little bit uncomfortable by the slow, lingering pan up Chie and Yukiko's bikini-clad bodies during the field trip episode, our standards for the appropriate depiction of 16-year-old girls are apparently pretty different.

I'll take that on gladly. It's less me being ok with pedophilia as it is me not giving a damn when the character is a 2d fictional character in a setting where their actual age is not given any focus at all.

So if Nanako would have gotten the same treatment you would have been OK with it as long as the characters drooling over her were of similar ages and did not do so because she was underage? Good to know.

Considering we already know the hot springs scene is coming and Nanako is going to be included, unless something is drastically different about that scene, I probably won't care much at all.

And while I know what you want to try to say, here's the thing. The presentation of Chie and Yukiko was like something out of a Key Animation adaptation while what you probably want to invoke with that example is Ro-Kyu-Bu. The difference between there is staggering.

Post by mutha3 (17 posts) See mini bio Level 6

@Turambar said:

Considering we already know the hot springs scene is coming and Nanako is going to be included, unless something is drastically different about that scene, I probably won't care much at all.

Sorry, don't remember the spring scene having a camera pan over Nanako's underage body in a swimsuit or seeing her pose suggestively.

@Turambar said:

And while I know what you want to try to say, here's the thing. The presentation of Chie and Yukiko was like something out of a Key Animation adaptation while what you probably want to invoke with that example is Ro-Kyu-Bu. The difference between there is staggering.

Alternative answer: they're both gross .Let me us your own words in a different context:

A defense based on a "bottom of the barrel" evidence simply does not work. If it did, no one would criticize Gundam Seed Destiny's over use of stock footage because Macross 7 was far worse about it.

Post by mutha3 (17 posts) See mini bio Level 6

From GB user Focks_Macleod:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mOlOQcMYDr4

Amazing.

Post by Turambar (233 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@mutha3 said:

@Turambar said:

Considering we already know the hot springs scene is coming and Nanako is going to be included, unless something is drastically different about that scene, I probably won't care much at all.

Sorry, don't remember the spring scene having a camera pan over Nanako's underage body in a swimsuit or seeing her pose suggestively.

Prediction: it will have Nanako in the spring scene, it will pan over her, probably lined up with the rest of the cast, and if she poses, it'll probably be for the purpose of looking cute. And I still won't feel incensed about it.

@mutha3 said:

@Turambar said:

And while I know what you want to try to say, here's the thing. The presentation of Chie and Yukiko was like something out of a Key Animation adaptation while what you probably want to invoke with that example is Ro-Kyu-Bu. The difference between there is staggering.

Alternative answer: they're both gross .Let me us your own words in a different context:

A defense based on a "bottom of the barrel" evidence simply does not work. If it did, no one would criticize Gundam Seed Destiny's over use of stock footage because Macross 7 was far worse about it.

Mmm...nope. I still feel perfectly fine saying claiming the former supports pedophilia is dumb. If you want to use my original statement, here's one far more analogous to the comparison being made. "No one would criticize Gundam Seed Destiny's over use of stock footage because Stardust Memories was far worse about it." Note that statement makes no sense and neither does attempts at comparing Clanad and Ro-Kyu-Bu.

Post by Turambar (233 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@mutha3 said:

From GB user Focks_Macleod:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mOlOQcMYDr4

Amazing.

That is pretty amazing.

Post by PewPewLazers (15 posts) See mini bio Level 6

@mutha3: I was referring more to the artbooks themselves, I don't own any version of the works book. But yeah they have text for each page pretty much and I'd be curious to read all that in English, especially considering how much overt symbolism is embedded in the game and the designs.

Christ, I forgot about the hot springs scene, and we know that Nanako will still be included after the The Golden screenshots show the specific cutscene.

Post by bxfinest (0 posts) See mini bio Level 3

@YotaruVegeta:

In regards to your teddie post earlier,

In the game it actually alludes to the fact that ameno-sagiri (the big ball after adachi) is pulling the strings of teddie's shadow. In the scene where teddie's shadow comes out, rise specifically says that she feels a powerful presence intervene. As well, teddie's shadow signifies that he fears he's hollow and you can see ameno-sagiri's eyes within the cracks of the shadow's face.
Post by mutha3 (17 posts) See mini bio Level 6

@Turambar said:

Prediction: it will have Nanako in the spring scene, it will pan over her, probably lined up with the rest of the cast, and if she poses, it'll probably be for the purpose of looking cute. And I still won't feel incensed about it.

Right. Cute.

Your pedantry is tiring. You know perfectly damn well, that my Nanako comparison was made to contrast it with the way Rise, Yukiko and Chie were treated(in both the game and anime)-- sexualizing her in other words. You know, like this image right here^

What makes the above image okay? "They aren't focusing on her age" like you said? Does that work for Nanako as well? Please answer it this time, and don't tell me that you probably won't mind because they aren't going to do that -- I'm asking you what if they are.

Also, way too miss the point. "Supporting pedophilia"? No one is saying that! In my mind, this is just a symptom of Japan's obsession with youth and its mildly uncomfortable to see a 16 year old cartoon flash her tits. That is all.

"No one would criticize Gundam Seed Destiny's over use of stock footage because Stardust Memories was far worse about it." Note that statement makes no sense and neither does attempts at comparing Clanad and Ro-Kyu-Bu.

I have not seen Clannad, but its anime, so I'm 99% sure it has fanservice involving underage girls.

....Also, I was comparing P4A and "Rok-Kyu-Bu" I know that the former has fanservice involving underage girls, and that's the point I was trying to make. I have no idea wat Ro-Kyu-Bu is, but whatever it is, it doesn't change P4A.

Post by Turambar (233 posts) See mini bio Level 10
@mutha3: Ohy vey.  You know damn well exactly why Rise's treatment in this episode was the way it was.  For one thing, the game's decision that her dungeon was going to be a strip club setting means her shadow's characterization fits.  Not to mention her shadow's characterization is meant to be grotesque, not erotic.  Not to mention given Rise's idol status and Japan's idol culture, having her shadow work out in another way would be disingenuous to the whole thing.
 
You're right, idol culture is weird and creepy.  But my comment was never in response to a "Japan's treatment of young girls and the perverse otaku obsessesion with 'purity' is fucking creepy."  It was in response to "I'm going to get all incensed because Chie and Yukiko were in swim suits in poses you can probably find in ads for department stores."
Post by zaldar (1,268 posts) See mini bio Level 15

wait wait...you guys really missed all this symbolism in the game? I mean really the story was what made the game good...it wasn't the dungeon crawling....wow. Didn't think you all would have missed this stuff. You are smack dab correct about the symbolism. I am surprised you were upset with the shadow stripping I mean this is Japan...you have been to sankaku complex right? I was afraid there were going to tone this down from the game (yes it was really this bad) I am glad they didn't.

Couple things I didn't like were the pacing. We should have gotten a longer fight or more fights. I mean these was a crazy hard dungeon and they just flew through it here. Expect it is a budget issue but the way they are doing it, the only people who will be interested are persona 4 fans. That was a mistake, since as you are finding out the story is incredible and much better than many anime stories.

I had some issues still with the animation in a couple places but it really was much better this week.

When we find out who the body was next week will be the real test of if it is working as a show outside of the game. I expect there to be a collective WHO? from the people who haven't played the game. (and this goes into my comment before about not spending enough time with nanako....)

Post by zaldar (1,268 posts) See mini bio Level 15

hmm ok fox fire: Toddlers and Tiarais is no where near as bad as the under 10 idol culture in Japan. I mean check this out:

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2008/10/08/6-year-old-idol-akiba%E2%80%99s-youngest-ever/

And unlike Toddlers and Tiarias this IS marketed to pedophiles. We are no where as bad as japan in sexualizing women in general and specifically teenagers. They have a lot on us in many ways in culture (respect for education, respect for hierarchy) but treatment of women is no where close to something we are near as bad as them on. I mean they all but still have legal high school prostitution in japan!

Post by Hailinel (76 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@mutha3: Shadow Rise is not Nanako. Even you should know that.

Post by mutha3 (17 posts) See mini bio Level 6

@Hailinel said:

@mutha3: Shadow Rise is not Nanako. Even you should know that.

I didn't say that. Read my pos-- you know what, here's a TL;DR because I don't feel like spelling things out for you again in a back and forth:

-Rise, Yukiko and Chie's treatment in this show is occasionally creepy

-Turambar claims its okay because "it doesn't focus on their age"

-I ask him whether the same would apply to Nanako

@Turambar said:

@mutha3: "I'm going to get all incensed because Chie and Yukiko were in swim suits in poses you can probably find in ads for department stores."

edit: n/m, don't really feel like carrying this debate on.

Post by TopographicOcean (15 posts) See mini bio Level 8

DISCLAIMER: The following isn't directed at any one person. It's just my thoughts on the subject as a whole.

@Hailinel said:

I think my frustration from this is the hypocritical nature that the west takes toward Japan in respects like this. We tell them "Don't do that!" when we're just as guilty, if not more so, of pandering in ways that other cultures would find offensive, if not members of our very own.

This right here.

Don't get me wrong, this whole under-age Idol culture and fanservice issue in Japan still stands.

However, it's frankly just as disturbing, to me at least, the Western depiction of teens and children. In the west, they act much more subtle way, using the tired old teenage stereotypes that basically act as a self-fulfilling prophecy, creating legions of idiots that think The Secret Life of the American Teenager is actually supposed to be a blueprint for how their life works. Delightful. That's really healthy huh? You'd like to think more people understood that this was entertainment and not reality, but they don't.

Is the problem as 'in your face' as, say, Rise's boobs? Nope. Is it a disgusting and reprehensible abuse of teens and children? I'd argue that it is.

And, once again, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Japan doesn't have it's own problems. What I am saying is that people getting all flustered about Japan's problems usually aren't looking the West's own problems. People LOVE to pick the crap out of countries other than their own more than do their own. It happens here in Australia all the time. The kings of racism down here pretty much.

Maybe I'm wrong, and Japan itself has the real problem and ours is negligible. With that decided, why the hell bother watching anime? If it's THAT much of a problem to you and as a whole? Watching anime with fanservice you disagree with isn't going to get rid of it. If anything, it's selling out. Your morals and principles must not be worth much if you keep watching despite the fact you disagree with the content. Not implying anyone talking here does this, but it happens and it's worth a mention considering the conversation.

Which brings me something else... The entire discussion would have been a lot more intriguing and thought provoking if it didn't dissolve into snide comments and condescension. I honestly do hate to sound preachy, but this could have actual been a good way to talk about these issues... And look what happened.

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