Unscripted: How Anime is Going to Die

Topic started by gia on April 26, 2010. Last post by YukoAsho 3 years, 7 months ago.
Post by gia (3,032 posts) See mini bio Level 13
Post by rocketbomber (226 posts) See mini bio Level 9
Anime will die in fire, pain, agony, giant robots, rebuffed confessions, and Glory:  Flaming Glory, perhaps with drills, definitely with lasers and missiles, and some emo hero/heroine will be responsible for not only the downfall of anime, but for structuring the new world that will replace it. 
 
Or a least, that's what anime has taught me.  Reality may differ.
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
Adv needs to come back, Neo Adv should get eva 2.0
Sentai film works is doing a lot of sub release to gain money, (as it is cheap to produce subbed), Neo Adv will use this income to produce new dubs.
 
Also Ocean studios is an amazing dubbing company.
 
 Its also great dbzKai is ging on CW 4kids
 
But of course you can never go wrong with subs.
Post by Kelleth (7,777 posts) See mini bio Level 20
Moderator
@Eric Pretty much every type of media has been in regression one time or another so stop whining about it :P
Post by Void_Wizard (735 posts) See mini bio Level 9
I want anime and manga to not die so I try to buy as much anime and manga as possible!
Post by FLStyle (423 posts) See mini bio Level 12
The ending did not disappoint, hilarious!
 
I don't think anime will die, just change. Whether that means companies running things differently or stop dubbing altogether I do not know. Personally I would prefer a dub-less world.
Post by Karkarov (147 posts) See mini bio Level 7
Personally I see his points and his message delivery was weak but this is hardly surprising or even really upsetting.  As a person who owns Samurai X for example I like Bang Zoom's work because there are some shows where I prefer the dub and that is one of them though there are others like Ergo Proxy where I prefer the sub.  
 
Point is yeah he was being a prick but that's nothing new lots of people do it all the time.  I don't want to see his company and all it's employees wind up in an unemployment line over it.
 
PS: nice closing I got a chuckle
Post by Whiskeyjack (111 posts) See mini bio Level 19
What, no love for Ben Folds? :(
Post by Frostalicious (44 posts) See mini bio Level 13
I LOL'd at the end. 
 
However, I disagree with your statement: "we have to train them to buy". I'm 20 now and have spent a lot of money over the past  decade on overpriced VHS and DVDs, box sets, etc to want to subject a younger anime lover to spend their disposable income on that.
 
If anything, we need to realize we have the power to change their minds on this new market. We just can't sit back and say: "I'll buy more because distributors are whining about piracy" because the fact is, they don't care about us as fans and if they don't take our enjoyment and benefit into consideration above their own monetary benefits, than they all need to close up shop now instead of later.
 
Crunchyroll has the right idea and I will continue to support them, but I just can't imagine what would happen if the industry in Japan took advantage of this worldwide market with a Hulu-like service.
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
" Adv needs to come back, Neo Adv should get eva 2.0 "
Our Evangelion fansite actually thinks there is a non-insignificant chance that they might:  
http://revolutionofevangelion.org/rebuild-of-eva-2-22s-english-dub-release-date/
 
But apart from that:  I'm a little confused about which "dubbing studios" there still are, because as it turns out, Engilsh dubbing is different from distribution, and distributors usually subcontract English dubbing out to third party studios, i.e. Bang Zoom.
 
Therefore:   who are the surviving anime English dubbing studios as of right now?  I do know that they're only located in California, Texas, and New York, but I don't know which ones they are.
 
Furthermore...I strongly disagree about the whole 'we need to train younger fans" thing;  FUNimation has said, word for word, "we need to train them that the right way to watch anime is on DVD"
 
...HOW?!  I mean the sheer logistics of it!  What are we going to do, establish "Anime DVD summer boot camps" or something?!
 
No, what the *industry* needs to realize is that *the internet has become TV*;  people want to watch stuff and if its "available" online....what are you going to do, *literally beg* fans to stop downloading?
 
WHY NOT try to send out legal cease and desists?
 
Or "decimate" the downloaders?  And I mean "decimate" in the strict sense of the term:  when a Roman Legion mutinied, they couldn't destroy the whole thing, so they'd randomly pick every tenth man and kill him as an example to the rest.  
 
Similarly, they need to start randomly tracking down internet downloaders, only a few, and heavily punish them, as an example to the rest.  They need to make people AFRAID of downloading.
 
Next, they need to put anime on online players, ad-supported; people are willing to sit through embedded ads if its EASILY AVAILABLE ONLINE; case in point, why would I have needed to download Code Geass, when the English dub was available on AdultSwim.com, ad-supported?
 
The problem is that the industry sees "anime" as "make DVDs at massive cost, then earn back massive profit"
 
Online streaming, like Crunchyroll, functions under the paradigm of "spend low, earn low";
 
for example:
 
It might cost $100,000 to make an anime DVD release, but you earn back $200,000...net profit, $100,000
 
Online streaming it might cost $5,000, and earn $10,000.
 
Now the *unending mantra, almost like a warped catechism* from the anime distribution companies has been "hahaha, you fools, you're only making $5,000...that's pocket change!  You're supposed to make a net profit of $100,000!....
 
...failing to realize that proportionately....streaming it still has a 50% profit margin (using these numbers).  Yes, it only made $10,000....20 times smaller than a DVD release....but it *only cost $5,000 to make*
 
Proportionately they made just as much money.  And if they actually SPENT $100,000...it would be on multiple series, $5,000 each...so they could release 20 titles for the same amount of money and earn the same amount of profit.  
 
Indeed, moreso:  DVDs have to deal with all sorts of production delays and shipping costs:  streaming can get it to the audience, faster and with a greater variety of shows.
 
And most importantly:  you don't know a DVD is a flop until after you've spent $100,000 on it;  back in 2004 when they were licensing princess-maker games that sold *literally 100 DVD sets nationwide*...so DVD companies are stuck with warehouses full of DVDs that can never be sold.
 
Streaming doesn't have this extra expense:  if a title is doing badly they just instantly cancel it from their server.  
 
On top of that, simply by virtue of the fact that it is "online" it can reach an audience something like 5 times greater than DVDs physically ever could, because its not limited by the number of DVDs they produce.
 
But the "people in charge" define "anime" as a hobbyist's interest, like hardcore comic book collecting, where "you need to have that special feeling of having it on your shelf"....uh...no, I don't do that with every single show I watch on american television, so why would I do that with anime?
 
I only buy DVDs for the ones I really like.  As for the rest...I'd watch them supported with ads if they BOTHERED to stream these things online.
 
But they didn't;  and Crunchyroll -- founded by some UC Berkeley  undergrads -- kicked their a$$es.  Why?  Simply because they were willing to do what the anime industry wouldn't; and the industry HAD the money, HAD the resources to develop online portals back in 2005, they simply chose not to.  
 
We have to stop thinking of DVDs as the primary medium on which anime is watched:  that isn't true for general american TV, why should it be the same for anime?  Indeed, american TV executives are considered dinosaurs for not counting DVD sales to measure a show's success...ergo, those shows which DO succeed these days, are not chosen based on their DVD sales at all!
 
They wanted to keep running the anime industry like the hobbyist's niche interest it was back in the mid-1990's....AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY GOT!!!  The whole thing has been reduced to 1999 levels!
 
They wanted to run a major media empire, under the structure of a niche import market of DVDs?!  What did they think would happen when they expanded so?
 
You know why the Roman Republic fell?  Because through their conquest of Europe, the Republic was still being run by the same government apparatus originally meant to govern the Roman city-state....their regional governers were simply ad-hoc military commanders set up as overlords, with no real "bureaucracy" or "administration" on the scale of a nation-state....much less one the size of the Roman Empire...to run it.
 
They expanded but didn't develop a new governing structure to match their new size.
 
So it got utterly corrupt and collapsed....reforming into the Roman Empire.
 
Right now, we're sort of at the point of the civil war between Julius Caesar's successors; everyone is starting to slowly realize the Republic isn't coming back and had too many flaws to function effectively.  
 
So we're going to need our own Augustus to eventually step in and actively set up a NEW framework, realizing that the old one wasn't working.
 
Silly, you might say...but as opposed to WHAT?!  The anime industry panels, such as they do run, all say that "The Plan" for the recovery of the anime industry is essentially "we're going to wait for the next big anime on the scale of Pokemon to come out"......what was Death Note?!  I think they don't mean just "a popular series", I mean literally something on the scale of Pokemon that breaks into the mainstream consciousness.
 
So their "functional plan" is...to sit around and wait?  Because its out of our hands?!  *We could do that without them, therefore, we don't need these dinosaurs anymore*
 
I mean look at Section 23;  they're not waiting for Pokemon.  They learned the hard way that they need to make whatever slim profits they can, and it will add up:  releasing a few sub-only licenses, they've been slowly and patiently rebuilding their economic base.  Its still pretty shakey, but at least now they're not just throwing money at the problem.  And then they make English dubs for the ones that are selling well.  Heck, they even have an online player now:  The Anime Network (which they 'own') streams things for them.
 
So take "Clannad"; they released it subtitled-only first, then it built up enough support that it seemed like a smart idea to make an English dub, and now they're not just releasing it on DVD but building up exposure for it by streaming new, English-dubbed episodes on their online player.  
 
*THIS*, what Section 23 is doing, is closer to the new business model we should be pursuing.  To be honest, FUNimation streams a lot of stuff too, but they have enough money to spare that they still think the answer is to release lots of expensive, English-dubbed DVDs.  
 
Why is this Bang Zoom president perpetually acting like its still 1999?  Still trying to relive a thousand *old glories*, of Ghost in the Shell and Blood+?!  
 
"The Old Generation can't build the New Era!" -- Char Aznable, Gundam
Post by FoxxFireArt (2,642 posts) See mini bio Level 25
Moderator
I think dubbing companies have been doing a far better product then they have in the past. Before people were always doing these annoying over the top voice work. It wasn't that long ago they added that iidiotic "Believe it!" line to Naruto. That wasn't ever said in the anime. It was added in on the English side and fans hated it. Eventually, they stopped adding that.
 
There have been some series that I enjoyed more in dub they subtitles. Such as, Fullmetal Alchemist, Eureka Seven, Evangelion, Ghost in the Shell: SAC, Samurai Champloo, Cowboy Bebop, and Death Note. It's more often the comedy series that don't see to dub well. They never seem to get the timing or tone as well.
There are some series that are far superior in the Japanese forms. I always suggest people should rather watch Code Geass in the Japanese version then the dub. It's not that it was "bad" in English. It's just that they really lacked in the emotion of the scenes. Lelouch sounded completely off.
 
I used to only watch One Piece on fansub sites. It was the only place I could get the real story without alterations. Now that FUNimation is airing the latest episodes in subtitled form along with their dub. I don't go anywhere else, but FUNimation's site. They have not been doing that for very long.
 
The music industry faced this problem with people downloading music though sites like Napster. Once they conformed to what the consumer wanted. We got micro transactions. Buying a song for $0.99. That led to things like the iStore and iPod.
 
There are a lot of mangas I would like to be buying, but I wont pay for a flawed product filled with pointless or silly alterations. i.e. changing names or oversensitive alterations.
Post by gia (3,032 posts) See mini bio Level 13
@ReVolutionOfEvangelion: I don't think we need to train them to buy *DVDs* per se, and I wouldn't be sad if considerably fewer series got English dubs.  
 
But I do think we need to carry on the idea that anime is something that needs to be paid for, somehow-- that it is WORTH paying something for. Maybe you buy merch that comes with the DVD rather than the other way around; maybe you buy a subscription to Crunchyroll, maybe you put up with ads, etc.  
 
I also wouldn't be so quick to assume Crunchyroll is kicking anyone's asses  in ways that matter for longevity (e.g. money); they're still young and are working mostly off of venture capital. I know at least one company that refused to do any simulcasts this season, with Crunchyroll or anyone else, because they didn't feel that a profit could be made off of the current model. 
Post by zyn (74 posts) See mini bio Level 9
"Buy some R1 DVD's!!!~~"   LOL.  Nice ending.
Post by Frostalicious (44 posts) See mini bio Level 13
@gia said:
" I also wouldn't be so quick to assume Crunchyroll is kicking anyone's asses  in ways that matter for longevity (e.g. money); they're still young and are working mostly off of venture capital. I know at least one company that refused to do any simulcasts this season, with Crunchyroll or anyone else, because they didn't feel that a profit could be made off of the current model.  "  
Crunchyroll will probably end up being the catalyst for another company to dominate digital anime distribution. However, like you said they are young and running off VC money, so if they can show growth and potential, the VCs will stick with them for years to come. Internet start-ups are being given more leeway now more than ever because of their potential. Crunchyroll should be no different.
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
@gia:  oh I do think we really need to vilify illegal downloading, and convince people that "actually buying stuff is like buying war bonds or making a donation, supporting the industry"....but that cannot possibly be *the only* plan, the only course of action.  That's just the propaganda part.  We need more active ways of addressing this problem. 
 
My point being that the actual companies truly, and I mean I'm shocked that this, keep stressing that "It has to be on DVD, and you pay $30 for it"...as opposed to "hey its online, and you pay one dollar on iTunes to watch it, but then again it costs us abuot 50 cents to host it online as opposed to a DVD which costs $10 to produce.  
 
"Hey guys, actually pay for this" does have to be part of it....but....how can DVD hope to compete with the ease of access of "watching it online", relatively cheap?  I'd watch embedded ads. 
Post by Whiskeyjack (111 posts) See mini bio Level 19
Buying anime DVDs in the early 00s simply taught me not to buy them.. and wait for the significantly cheaper thinpaks/collected editions. I acknowledge that that sort of thinking is a vicious circle, but they did it to me.
 
I'm dubious as to the shining future of exported anime being streamed online. Online content providers need to re-invent how to make money online, and that's a problem plaguing many different sectors. Someone will figure it out eventually I imagine. "Build a better mouse trap..."
Post by bustajibb (51 posts) See mini bio Level 11


Just read the article about the "death of anime" and then Eric Sherman's letter/quasi-guilt trip, then Unscripted.  Heres my own personal take on the current status of anime.   First, the quality of English dubs have been really hit or miss lately.  Some I have come across are so bad that it makes what would have been an enjoyable series just a real pain to watch.  Lets take Naruto for example, yes Im a Naruto fan.  I love the manga and fansubs.  But I have heard the English dub and swear I just about want to rip my earns off evertime I hear Naruto yell, "Believe it!" in what sounds like a smoker's voice.  I mean did the person doing the voice acting smoke two packs of cigerttes before each recording session.  But I digress.    
  
Secondly, lets face it, some anime series have such a low fanbase (even in Japan) that a sub only release will do fine or even better.  I cant tell you how many times I have seen a release in Best Buy or online (wherever) and thought it would be a fun show to watch but end up hearing people's reaction or reveiws on that series and come to the conclusion that its simply not worth my hard-earned $20-$25 for 3 or 4 episodes of a show I may hate. On the other hand, if I could buy some of these series in sub only for a little less money I would have picked up the first release to try and make my mind up for myself. 

 
Lastly, is the use of anime on the internet.  Its just easier to download something you browsed the web for from the comfort of your home, rather than drive to the store, stand looking at all the different selection of shows you have never seen or have any information on (hopefully finding something) and stand in line to pay, what I think to be too much to pay for many dubbed series.  Companies have gotten close with the idea of simlcast.  But here is the problem, you pay your subscription to watch anime a few hours after its aired and thats great.  But what if your like me and enjoy rewatching your favs a few years from now.  Chances are that you will be outa luck because it will more than likely be removed from the server to free up space for more anime.  Then you have to go to the store and buy the whole series or download fansubs from the net.  A healthy alternative to this would to allow fans to pay for a permanent download to keep for just such occaisons.  I mean common, its the iPod generation.  We would rather pay for an electronic copy of something like this.  But, it seems that these big studios have lost touch with want anime fans really want.

Post by AURON570 (570 posts) See mini bio Level 15
hehe at one point both of you cross your arms, it was a nice moment ^_^... and I appreciated the ending =D
Post by N15PCA (611 posts) See mini bio Level 13

For me I haven't bought a anime DVD since last year.  I don't mind paying 2.00 bucks an episode as all has it's the dub verison.  That's why I don't pay a monthly fee to Crunchyroll and wait a week later for it when it becomes free.  If I'm going to pay for a monthly fee or for one anime episode it's has to be a dub verison. 
 
I'm probability not in the majortiy in that opinion when it comes to anime fans. 
 
I don't what to do about the next gereration.  Five years ago I was buying anime DVD's ever month.    
 
One thing I would like the anime industry to do is try to get non-action animes on TV.  Their a hole new market out their that they not taping.  You could put Maria-sama type show on Lifetime or ever Logo network.  It would work. 
 
I recall an article a year ago on anime vice about Ellen Degeneres putting on her blog about she liked Aoi Hana.  here the article on Aoi Hana.   I though to myself why didn't the anime industry jump on this and get her to watch other Yuri or shojo shows.   
 
Who knows if they played their cards right you could have her wear a anime t-shirt when she is doing american Idol.  Even though I hate american Idol.
Post by Karkarov (147 posts) See mini bio Level 7
@gia said:
 I also wouldn't be so quick to assume Crunchyroll is kicking anyone's asses  in ways that matter for longevity (e.g. money); they're still young and are working mostly off of venture capital. I know at least one company that refused to do any simulcasts this season, with Crunchyroll or anyone else, because they didn't feel that a profit could be made off of the current model.  "
I would tell you that company is also very very dumb.  It is hard truth that if a thief wants to steal something you have they will. Not simulcasting a show means you earn 0 dollars on that option.  Crunchyroll has already shown it is willing to make tough deals for product, for example they take down Fairy Tail episodes after a month.  All they really need to do is provide a flash version of the show and honestly that isn't all that hard, time consuming, or expensive Crunchyroll can do most of the rest on it's own.  Meanwhile while they make 0 dollars on their shows not getting any simulcasts the fansubbers are distributing them illegally anyway.
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