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Added by gia manry on Dec. 17, 2008
J-J-J-Jail!
Mostly we think of this as it relates to English-speaking fansubbers working on Japanese anime, but here's a tale of the reverse: a guy in Japan who fansubbed an American movie and released it via BitTorrent. 33-year-old Kazushi Hirata fansubbed the Angelina Jolie flick Wanted, released it prior to its Japanese theatrical release, and was arrested in September.
He plead guilty in November and was sentenced yesterday: he'll spend two years in prison and be suspended for three years after that (I'm guessing that's like parole?). And it could have been worse: he could have gotten as many as 10 years in prison with a $95,000 fine.
Now, American movies reach a much wider audience in Japan than anime reaches in the US-- which means the US (and Japanese) anime industry depends even more on each and every individual sale than American movie companies. Just food for thought.
Filed under :
Overseas Distribution And Piracy
21 Comments
LoL just as i was downloading a fansubbed Paprika for on my Nintendo DS XD
j/k j/k its not fansubbed :)
j/k j/k its not fansubbed :)
This does lead to an interesting question - fansubbing is illegal. Circumventing DVD region codes on stand alone players (like the one you've probably got under/next to/above/built in to your TV right now) is also illegal (due to the DMCA). I would like to think that most US anime fans would agree that downloading fansubs of US licensed shows is bad period - the creators of the series don't get any money, and the US licensor gets no money.
However, what about shows that are not only unlicensed, but are likely to never be licensed period - as an example, Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Not including the films and the Gaiden series, it's over 100 episodes long, and is certainly an older series, which (if Answerman is correct) is likely to never, ever be licensed, both due to the age and the length of the series. Now, the DVDs are available in Japan, but do not necessarily have English subtitles, and they are region coded for Japan. Now, if a Blu-Ray release comes out, then we may be in business - Japan and the US share a Blu-Ray region code. However, as far as DVDs are concerned, one would either need to...
However, what about shows that are not only unlicensed, but are likely to never be licensed period - as an example, Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Not including the films and the Gaiden series, it's over 100 episodes long, and is certainly an older series, which (if Answerman is correct) is likely to never, ever be licensed, both due to the age and the length of the series. Now, the DVDs are available in Japan, but do not necessarily have English subtitles, and they are region coded for Japan. Now, if a Blu-Ray release comes out, then we may be in business - Japan and the US share a Blu-Ray region code. However, as far as DVDs are concerned, one would either need to...
gia said:
"By the way, can I just offer this: what a crappy movie to go to prison for!"Took the words off my mouth
A lot of poor quality shows get fansubbed too... At least Japan is consistent.
However there is a compelling fair use argument, so it can be correctly described as "legally grey." Japanese copyright law is, after all, not the same as America's (or any other country).
However there is a compelling fair use argument, so it can be correctly described as "legally grey." Japanese copyright law is, after all, not the same as America's (or any other country).
Count_Zero: You should repost that essay as a blog post! That said, you can get region-free DVD players in the US pretty easily.
As for the rest...I'll quote Dark Horse's Carl Horn here, as I so often have: it's not the downloading, it's the downloading and not buying.
So if a fan wants to watch a fansub of a series that is more or less unlicens-able for one reason or another, and they want to do so ethically, I'd say download the episodes but also import the DVDs. The problem is that very few fans will do this; DVDs are extremely expensive in Japan and tend to come with few episodes. Kaiba, for example, is a rare case of 4 episodes (two discs) per release. But each release is hideously expensive-- the first disc is about $65 with an Amazon discount ($81 MSRP), and the subsequent two releases are about $100 each on Amazon / $117 MSRP. So that's $281 to $315 for a single 12-episode series.
...You have to be pretty devoted to be willing to do that.
As for the rest...I'll quote Dark Horse's Carl Horn here, as I so often have: it's not the downloading, it's the downloading and not buying.
So if a fan wants to watch a fansub of a series that is more or less unlicens-able for one reason or another, and they want to do so ethically, I'd say download the episodes but also import the DVDs. The problem is that very few fans will do this; DVDs are extremely expensive in Japan and tend to come with few episodes. Kaiba, for example, is a rare case of 4 episodes (two discs) per release. But each release is hideously expensive-- the first disc is about $65 with an Amazon discount ($81 MSRP), and the subsequent two releases are about $100 each on Amazon / $117 MSRP. So that's $281 to $315 for a single 12-episode series.
...You have to be pretty devoted to be willing to do that.
Gia: I'm not disagreeing about the expense - I was going over the DVD releases for Bureau42.com (a site I write for), for anime releases, and to import, say, DVDs of Blade of the Immortal, it runs about what you're quoting there. Are there people stateside who would pay for those releases - oh hell yes. Blade of the Immortal is probably one of Dark Horse's most popular manga releases (and, between it, Oh! My Goddess, Akira, and Dirty Pair) it put them on the map, not just among manga fans, but comic readers as well (well, that and the Star Wars, Aliens, and Predator licenses).
Actually, what really caused me to think about this is the Captain Harlock series - I have every harlock series that was relased on DVD stateside (which numbers about 3, not including peripheral series and spinoffs like Cosmo Warrior or *shudder* Gun Frontier) In theory, there's a prospective market for, say, Harlock SSX, which is a direct sequel to Arcadia of My Youth (and the only instance of continuity in the franchise). It'd even fit in with AnimEigo's catalog. Is it going to happen? Highly unlikely (in fact, the Hey Answerman column I linked to was referencing Harlock series).
(Oh, and why I didn't do it as a blog - by the time I'd finished I'd figured it would probably work better as a blog - but I wasn't sure if there was some way to connect it to this article without posting a comment here as a link, which seemed kind of pathetic - even if it was an internal link, instead of a link to my external blog, or even to Bureau42.com.)
Actually, what really caused me to think about this is the Captain Harlock series - I have every harlock series that was relased on DVD stateside (which numbers about 3, not including peripheral series and spinoffs like Cosmo Warrior or *shudder* Gun Frontier) In theory, there's a prospective market for, say, Harlock SSX, which is a direct sequel to Arcadia of My Youth (and the only instance of continuity in the franchise). It'd even fit in with AnimEigo's catalog. Is it going to happen? Highly unlikely (in fact, the Hey Answerman column I linked to was referencing Harlock series).
(Oh, and why I didn't do it as a blog - by the time I'd finished I'd figured it would probably work better as a blog - but I wasn't sure if there was some way to connect it to this article without posting a comment here as a link, which seemed kind of pathetic - even if it was an internal link, instead of a link to my external blog, or even to Bureau42.com.)
One other thing I didn't mention, is anime series that would be a just plain expensive mess to license, like, say Macross 7 (A=Money due to Studio Nue or Big West for the rights for the original Macross series, B=Any money due to Harmony Gold due to that whole rights cluster-frack, C=Royalties for the Fire Bomber songs used in the series, and then if you dub the series you get D=Payment for the voice actors for the initial dub sessions and E=Royalty payments for the voice actors.) So, that series would be impossible to license for US release, so they can't get our money for the DVDs.
(Now, they can get our money for the Fire Bomber albums, if you import them, which gives you one way to support the show, if you like the music - and really, if you don't like the music, why are you watching the show?)
(Now, they can get our money for the Fire Bomber albums, if you import them, which gives you one way to support the show, if you like the music - and really, if you don't like the music, why are you watching the show?)
gia said:
"By the way, can I just offer this: what a crappy movie to go to prison for!"That's just crazy talk. It may not have been movie of the year but I wouldn't call it crappy. Maybe you try reading the original material. They're both similar in the beginning then the movie took a big turn. The comic was definitely better.
Well we all know this topic has been on the top of the list for many anime fans. Strangely enough with a kind of flip flop groups of people picking a fighting sides. Do I think stealing is wrong, well ya. Have I took something because I was being treated as a slave and the MFers were trowing it away (maybe more then once).
Now I do buy as much Anime and Manga as I can. But there is only so much I can spend. My only other way of viewing anime then is to watch the tv (which IS going to cost me and is limited) or go through the troubel of what Count_Zero said.
We are a devoted few that want so much. We want anime that the majorty of the Japanies people have playing on the unknown chanle in the unforgive houres of the night. And even if we are big enough groupe to be a pain to some, the US anime markent is simply just not big enought. So we (the anime markent) must grow for more companies be instreted to do the work to get paid. But in the meen time one of the ways to get people into anime is to keep them up to date with new and great show (and we all know one of the best ways to do that).
This is only part of what I think and would like to talk about it more if you have made anthoner blog or forum Gia or Count_Zero I be glad to talk about it more, but for now I won't take anymore NEWS comment space.
Now I do buy as much Anime and Manga as I can. But there is only so much I can spend. My only other way of viewing anime then is to watch the tv (which IS going to cost me and is limited) or go through the troubel of what Count_Zero said.
We are a devoted few that want so much. We want anime that the majorty of the Japanies people have playing on the unknown chanle in the unforgive houres of the night. And even if we are big enough groupe to be a pain to some, the US anime markent is simply just not big enought. So we (the anime markent) must grow for more companies be instreted to do the work to get paid. But in the meen time one of the ways to get people into anime is to keep them up to date with new and great show (and we all know one of the best ways to do that).
This is only part of what I think and would like to talk about it more if you have made anthoner blog or forum Gia or Count_Zero I be glad to talk about it more, but for now I won't take anymore NEWS comment space.
GMan said:
"gia said:I was only talking about the movie, not the comic, which I haven't read. As a movie, it was pretty overwhelmingly "meh," IMO."By the way, can I just offer this: what a crappy movie to go to prison for!"That's just crazy talk. It may not have been movie of the year but I wouldn't call it crappy. Maybe you try reading the original material. They're both similar in the beginning then the movie took a big turn. The comic was definitely better."
How and why would subtitles be "illegal"? First of all, aren't you retelling of facts? You're retelling what the characters are saying. If not then all the quotes on the internets are illegal, because that's what it is. A sub is just one, massive, quote. And wouldn't the person who subtitled it be protected by copyright himself, since it's his work after all, and he didn't even get paid for it. That's like saying fanlitterature is illegal. Maybe I'm wrong, so yell at me if I am. In my eyes however, what happened here was that he uploaded the movie, and that was the only big no-no here.
Suspended could be like suspended sentence, meaning if you violate (the law?) you go straight back to jail without the normal procedures or something.
Part of sales is advertising and in my wild past I probably learned more about Anime through these surreptitious means than I ever would have through normal, commercial means, especially living where I lived.
It may be scary for people to realize, but illegal doesn't always mean wrong, even if you wind up going to jail for it. You can break the law but be doing something that will later be acceptable and legal. This is where test cases come from.
Come to think of it, that sentence seems a bit harsh.
Part of sales is advertising and in my wild past I probably learned more about Anime through these surreptitious means than I ever would have through normal, commercial means, especially living where I lived.
It may be scary for people to realize, but illegal doesn't always mean wrong, even if you wind up going to jail for it. You can break the law but be doing something that will later be acceptable and legal. This is where test cases come from.
Come to think of it, that sentence seems a bit harsh.
Xymox: I'm not going to yell : But while subtitles themselves aren't illegal, distributing fan-subtitled movies, anime, etc. is illegal. So is distributing even just a translation without a video file-- those words and that story are copyrighted. It's the same as if you tried to give away your own translation of a Harry Potter novel as an alternative to an official one...you're taking away from those sales (or, if it hasn't already been released, those future sales).
Fan-written literature based on other works is also illegal in most cases, although not for copyright: it's trademark violation. The characters, the worlds, they're protected under trademark law. That said, the vast majority of fan-art and fan-fiction (and even in some cases fan-subs) are tolerated because they generally assist the copyright/trademark holders in promoting the materials for free, and it's hard to want to go through the PR nightmare of suing your fans. In Japan they also tolerate doujinshi because doujinshi-creators are one of the pools of talents that manga publishers draw from-- but as soon as they start crossing the line into creating violating materials that can be consumed as an alternative to official materials (like a particular Doraemon doujinshi, just in recent memory) you'll find copyright/trademark holders can and often will jump on it.
Now, I want to note that my personal stance is not necessarily in complete and utter opposition to fansubs, and certainly not against fanart or fanfics or anything...but I think it's very important that the creators of these materials be aware that what they are doing is a technical violation of the creators' rights, even if they're doing it with the best of intentions, and even if the creator doesn't mind.
Fan-written literature based on other works is also illegal in most cases, although not for copyright: it's trademark violation. The characters, the worlds, they're protected under trademark law. That said, the vast majority of fan-art and fan-fiction (and even in some cases fan-subs) are tolerated because they generally assist the copyright/trademark holders in promoting the materials for free, and it's hard to want to go through the PR nightmare of suing your fans. In Japan they also tolerate doujinshi because doujinshi-creators are one of the pools of talents that manga publishers draw from-- but as soon as they start crossing the line into creating violating materials that can be consumed as an alternative to official materials (like a particular Doraemon doujinshi, just in recent memory) you'll find copyright/trademark holders can and often will jump on it.
Now, I want to note that my personal stance is not necessarily in complete and utter opposition to fansubs, and certainly not against fanart or fanfics or anything...but I think it's very important that the creators of these materials be aware that what they are doing is a technical violation of the creators' rights, even if they're doing it with the best of intentions, and even if the creator doesn't mind.
I think the general thing is that cartoons like anime aren't seen in the same calibur as high-budget movies, especially if it's a TV show. If someone pirates the Dark Knight, they'd be shitting themselves every time they get a phone call. If someone pirates an anime though, they assume the original creators have no authority over them, especially when it's unlicensed. Besides, the insane price of an anime series for even the most obscure show is more than you would charge for the same number of episodes of a multi-million dollar per episode show. The stupid prices they're asking for this stuff and the lack of any attempt to prosicute illegal distributers is basically the same as declairing open season for anyone who wants to pirate the stuff.
obviously if its illegal then he needs to face the consequences but going to prison for something like this is fucking ridiculous. prisons are for people who are a threat to society, sending people to jail for breaching copyright laws is sick
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on Dec. 17, 2008