Anime Vice News

Does RWBY Count as Anime? -- THE VICE PIT

This home-grown animated series has been courting an interesting controversy. So... does it belong in this club?

Follow Tom's Twitter and Sam's Twitter to see what happens next!

Recent Vice Pit sessions on...

Recent sessions in Vice Pit: Undercover...

You can check out every episode of the Vice Pit here.

Be sure to submit questions and topics for a future Vice Pit session here. We will answer them!

metalsnakezeroon Jan. 16, 2014 at 7:52 a.m.

I think of anime now as a type of style. It similar to how JRPG is more of a style to the RPG genre than it is as a genre. There been other anime like shows that pop up in recent years like Air Bender series.

Really liking RWBY for what it does.

Elfenlied1012on Jan. 16, 2014 at 8:46 a.m.

First off I despise the purist argument, Movies were primarily made in America, that is where the industry powerhouse is located, french movies however are movies, French is the adjective, not the noun. In the same way classical sculpting comes out of Hellenistic and Roman art, but a classical sculpture doesn't need to be made in Rome or Greece to be a classical sculpture. The region does not accurately describe, for it does not tell us anything about what it is, outside of it's creation story and you'll see why in my statement below

What defines something is the observations we can make about it, it's style how it goes, the stories conventions themes and the way it's presented. None of that changes based on where its made, and where it's made does not change it when consumed without the added knowledge that it was not in the thematic country of origin. I.E. An orange is an orange whether grown in Florida or it's native China, due to it's properties.

How do we test this?

On this matter I use the Turing Test. Its an A.I. Test made by Alan Turing, he kind of made the concepts that allow for computing as well. Basically its a A.I. test that if you have a man in one room with a TV screen that connects to another man and a computer. The man in the first room can ask any question he wants and the computer and person will respond. If the person can not tell the difference, the A.I. has true intelligence.

I feel like that works in Anime.

If someone watches two shows, one a traditional anime dubbed in English, and another an American "anime" and can not decipher which one if the American show outside of guessing, than both are in fact anime. In example if you dubbed inferno cop a trigger minisode anime and played it along side RWBY, I would in fact think Inferno cop is the American show and RWBY was the anime. Thus if inferno cop is the anime RWBY must be also an anime since it shares the original concepts properties.

This separates inspired from what is anime.

In example Samurai Jack and ben ten are inspired by anime, but they could not pass this sort of Turing test (though I do love that show samurai jack and recommend it) and shows like Avatar and RWBY do pass the Turing Test more times than not when I've experienced them. It also has nothing to do with quality. Code Lioko or however you say it it passes because I had honesty thought it was just a bad anime when it aired only years later did I find out it was french.

Elfenlied1012on Jan. 16, 2014 at 8:48 a.m.

Also you should finish RWBY, it's an interesting thing if nothing else and doesn't take much time. Not the best thing in last fall, but easily my favorite. I would review it, but last I checked the mods decided to deny any non-american anime despite the sites old policy in favor of inspired work. I don't want to post a review on a page that can be downed at any moment.

phantomranton Jan. 16, 2014 at 12:35 p.m.

examining styles, it is closer to the anime-esque genre than say...Avatar.

Elfenlied1012on Jan. 16, 2014 at 12:43 p.m.

@phantomrant: While I totally see where your coming from and at first glance it seems right, but I would disagree, it shares more of its narrative conventions and styles than avatar. It's clearly more derivative of it in a narrative sense, and in some ways is a bit too cliche for it. There is a lot more to the conventions of anime than just it's art. If you just mean in art and 3D modeling, the use of that kind of CG to push forward the anime genre was already in use by Japanese animation. I.E. the CG in the original Valkyria Chronicles cut-scenes or mid game animated movies. This even more so in some animated movies as they experiment with the form. In fact the CG in the Ghost in the shell remake movie is more distant from the standard from than RWBY is, or say a lot of Triggers work in the opposite direction.

OR do you mean it's closer to anime than Avatar is....I just realized your post can be read two different ways

phantomranton Jan. 16, 2014 at 12:49 p.m.

@Elfenlied1012 said:

@phantomrant: While I totally see where your coming from and at first glance it seems right, but I would disagree, it shares more of its narrative conventions and styles than avatar. It's clearly more derivative of it in a narrative sense, and in some ways is a bit too cliche for it. There is a lot more to the conventions of anime than just it's art. If you just mean in art and 3D modeling, the use of that kind of CG to push forward the anime genre was already in use by Japanese animation. I.E. the CG in the original Valkyria Chronicles cut-scenes or mid game animated movies. This even more so in some animated movies as they experiment with the form. In fact the CG in the Ghost in the shell remake movie is more distant from the standard from than RWBY is, or say a lot of Triggers work in the opposite direction.

OR do you mean it's closer to anime than Avatar is....I just realized your post can be read two different ways

it's closer to the anime-genre than Avatar BECAUSE of its animation stylez (and then after that I'll just take a closer look at ur explnation).

Elfenlied1012on Jan. 16, 2014 at 1:41 p.m.

@phantomrant: my apologies, I was misunderstanding what you were saying, my mistake

Marshal Victoryon Jan. 16, 2014 at 2:24 p.m.

Aforementioned Marshal Victory here, fresh from being radiated!So lets blame poor grammer an spelling on me being nuked this time.

1st an formost an·i·me (n-m)

n.A style of animation developed in Japan, characterized by stylized colorful art and often adult themes.nime is geraly defined as http://www.thefreedictionary.com/anime

Note the style part is right up front there?Yes developed in Japan but it is a style.For those hardcore purist um many anime you have watched may well have been animated in China or South Korea. Studio Deen does animate some things from china. Theirs alot more to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_animation.

So yes as a style RWBY fits the bill as anime.An what @Elfenlied1012: noted about review policy an anime should be changed um yesterday.Bacause what Mat is most corect on this may well be the future.To not inculde anime because it was not made in Japan means all those titles on this site in the wiki from studios in China an South Korea should go right?

Just easyer to fix that review policy .

Note also it is a style that can cross genes an themes.So you can have science fiction ,steampunk,noir,romance ,western.. anime in one animation.Be that animation a series or a movie or even OVA. which Tom is right ,it is basicly direct to video http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Original+video+animation

2nd RWBYused http://poser.smithmicro.com/ article here about it http://finance.yahoo.com/news/smith-micros-poser-software-empowers-130000291.html an ya its basicly dirt cheep for what one could do with it.

3rd RWBY is pretty solid for what it is.Its style is a bit minimalist for some tastes but i enjoyed it.Story wise its disney clean but still worth watching .Its anaimtion at times is a bit ruff but it does things to at times whith multiple things animatied at the same time.

An lastly is it worth finishing watching?No logical reason not to.They are short you can marathon the whole season in less than two hours. http://www.amazon.com/RWBY-Blu-Ray-Barbara-Dunkelman/dp/B00EDR5N3A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389910634&sr=8-1&keywords=RWBY has the time at 110 minutes total.

you can watch it on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sGiE10zNQM

http://www.crunchyroll.com/rwby

an http://roosterteeth.com/archive/?sid=rwby&v=more

for free.

Elfenlied1012on Jan. 16, 2014 at 3:21 p.m.

@Marshal Victory: I'm in full agreement. The new policy just weakens the site as this sort of stuff continues to expand.

takashichea moderator on Jan. 16, 2014 at 4:03 p.m.

I see Vice Pit is bringing the What Counts as Anime and Manga in the Wiki issue that I brought up a while ago. I'm sticking with what most folks say. If it's made in Japan or by Japanese companies, it belongs in Anime Vice. Plus, I'm trying to promote Screened for the other things.

I actually denied a wiki submission on RWBY and told the new wiki editor to go to Screened. We had a slight miscommunication here with our veteran wiki editors. This issue will come up with other series like Avatar and future shows. Anime Vice and Screened have to help each other out. An overlap in wiki and content is going to be make things complicated such as our wiki editors and reviewers.

Elfenlied1012on Jan. 16, 2014 at 5:02 p.m.

@takashichea: I half way want to post No on there and tie it up a month after the vote XD Again I love you Takashichea, but you and your supporters on that are completely unjustified. The Argument just follows purest dogmatic rules, instead of any logical distinction.

Anyways I've argued with you enough friend, like you way too much to be spending all this time whining. Either way I will not be submitting wikis that break the new policy from here on out I promise.

takashichea moderator on Jan. 16, 2014 at 5:08 p.m.

@Elfenlied1012:

Back then, the policy by Gia was that anything that had anime influence was allowed. That was before Screened's birth. Basically, we had Ben 10, Scott Pilgrim, My Little Pony, Teen Titans, Samurai Jack, etc. I know you are passionate about helping the community. This issue has been old since the birth of AV. I saw that policy too broad because you can argue that anything can be anime influenced. I do welcome the arguments. Our arguments are way more civil and polite than the battle threads. I don't mind it at all. I just don't know anymore because Anime Vice and Screened are all what we have left. Folks ask me why ComicVine has manga and why Scott Pilgrim isn't allowed in Anime Vice. Scott Pilgrim is made in Canada going by our standards. Well, Comic Vine broke off with the family and its scope is broad, essentially covering all comics and now TV shows.

Kino88on Jan. 16, 2014 at 5:30 p.m.
The big eyes actually started with Disney, so as much As I love the typical anime look it's not that simple, for me "Anime" is more Than just a particular look and style, I actually feel it's more of A Cultural matter, the Japanese like all country's have a unique pop culture Shaped by there own cultural history and society, for example while manga Took on many influences' from the west it was still infused with Japan's own Story telling traditions, it's The difference between "Chef Boy Ardee" and an authentic Italian dinner, So is Ruby an Anime? Yeah kind of, but it's the canned stuff......
Elfenlied1012on Jan. 16, 2014 at 5:30 p.m.

@takashichea:

Well if you want an argument you got one buddy I love me some arguing XD

The issue is not whether inspired works do not function on the site, I accept that for many of the list you just said do not pass my suggested mental test, however I argue RWBY and Avatar, ARE anime, as defined above by myself and marshal. Genres of media are described by conventions, styles, and all such things that describe what it is, region of creation described nothing about it outside of its origin, so it fails as a definition of anime.

Long story short

Ben 10- no clearly more linked to western superhero tales, its art is not that referential and thematics do not match Would not pass turing test stated above

Scott Pilgrim- Not read so can't say

MLP - Really? It's not even close to actually even inspired by. Would not pass turing test stated above

Teen Titans- would not pass the Turing test lacks the conventions

Samurai Jack- again Art and thematics don't match, doesn't pass test

See that's doing things on a case by case business. Perhaps not as quick, but not nearly as inaccurate of a system than outright xenophobia towards the origin of works and earnestly overlapping pages seem less like a problem than rigid structure in terms of keeping an audience of users. Myself for a suitable example has no love for Screen, I just don't care for it, so I will never be an editor for it, however as content I have worked on under previous policies gets deleted I'm less inclined to produce content, where as doubles just makes things mildly inefficient which doesn't matter since filling the wiki is part of the appeal for joining the community.

(I know I keep saying this, but you never know when people will take it personally remember I absolutely adore you buddy XD))

takashichea moderator on Jan. 16, 2014 at 5:37 p.m.

@Elfenlied1012:

You know what, we should have went with a compromise back in that thread, going by case by case instead of adopting a narrow or too broad policy. I didn't want to delete Avatar and Korra in this community because a lot of folks pour hours for reviewing and editing. It would be a slap to their faces. I did frighten off folks which was entirely my fault being a new wiki mod. I just couldn't help but ask what is our scope as a community.

I did find it strange that Crunchyroll streamed RWBY. I did enjoyed RWBY. The voices, the animation all had potential. Rooster Teeth is one of the few Indie (if I use that word correctly) animation studios that did pretty well.

@Elfenlied1012:

You do make valid points on that anime is more than its origin and it's more of a style. I'm not a problem. The others and I are arguing for the sake of the site's wiki. I know the wiki is a small part, but it doesn't mean it belongs in the wiki. I have to think about Anime Vice's sister site, Screened. You review or talk about RWBY or anything in Anime Vice because we have an off-topic section. I don't quite understand what is a purist in your arguments, but I'm arguing as a wiki editor for Anime Vice. We have to draw the line or do a compromise.

If we go with your idea, folks would still argue that Scott Pilgrim is a manga or even American comics are manga.

Our scope is to include manga and anime series that is produced in Japan and those who have the Japanese cultural roots (with the exception of Manhwa). Basing on style, it's pretty broad now that I think about it. Folks will use the style argument to say that RWBY and others are anime. They're just a hybrid that can be animation or anime influenced one.

I don't have to be an anime fan or a cartoon fan to enjoy RWBY.

Elfenlied1012on Jan. 16, 2014 at 5:40 p.m.

@Kino88: While I personally disagree, I do think your idea as some validity to it, but by its own note I had a wonderful southern style chicken dinner in northern Spain once, it was fantastic, used the recipe all the same, but it was prepared perfectly.

Elfenlied1012on Jan. 16, 2014 at 6 p.m.

@takashichea:

Honestly you were not the only problem in the thread, not to name names, but certain users are would not let anything but all or nothing go. Purists are a group and they are a very loud one at that. I don't envy having to administer that debate. Well to be honest it's sad that they were frightened off, but its not totally your fault. I find it hard to believe you were anything but cordial.

It's not strange, RWBY was super popular, and Crunchyroll considers it an anime by their definition made sense for them and it made sense for RT to let it because it gave them the establishment they needed.

I personally loved it, but all criticism put towards it is really warranted, its a flawed jewel with a lot of heart.

sickVisionz moderator on Jan. 17, 2014 at 5:59 a.m.

I wouldn't call it anime but I wouldn't argue against someone who did. It's at least stylistically similar. Far more than I can say about stuff like Ben 10 and other things that people have argued for which has absolutely no connection or similarity to anything specifically anime whatsoever in any shape or form.

Elfenlied1012on Jan. 17, 2014 at 8:54 a.m.

@sickVisionz: See I never got the ben ten argument, it's conventions and styles were not similar to anime whatsoever. You could spot it in a line up of a thousand anime almost immediately. And if you can do that it certainly does not follow even the definition by style much less the purist definition.

Elfenlied1012on Jan. 22, 2014 at 5:02 a.m.

@takashichea:As for the screened argument, duplicates do not hurt either sites all that much, especially if the editors do not devote themselves to it. If two pages exist for RWBY one on screened and one on Vice for example the one most in line with that community naturally will have the larger wiki, barring outside influence. Building a wiki is rather fun and having a bit of a broad stroke to them does not devalue them, I mean it's a wiki not currency.

As for the slippery slope argument, the slippery slope is a logical falsely. It's even consider one of the principle logical falsely, for a man that eats meat will not begin to eat all meat indiscriminately including human meat. Beyond that I suggest a page by page call, for in truth the difference is easy to spot. Comics are obviously not manga, for they can not in any way blend in with standard manga, as stated before RWBY and Avatar are anime because it is impossible to discern them from the original concept without added information, thus they are it. Comic books are easy to discern and pick from a line up without context.

As for the you don't need to be an anime fan to like RWBY that can be pretty much said about anything, you don't need to be into anime to like steins gate if your into time travel.

As for the off topic reviews don't could as reviews on site, nor get on the leader-board list thus receives less exposure.

oh and to define a purist, it's a person that believes that anime is made in japan, bar-none, no exception, no explanation. Sometimes the purist argument will include "dubs are not anime" argument.

Dig Deeper into The Vice Pit

The Vice Pit is an internet series of videos about anime and manga hosted by Tom Pinchuk and Sam Weller.

Edit/View the Wiki
Hit the Forums (95 Posts)
Add/View Images (3 Images)
Watch Some Videos
Pokemon Black and White Looks Delicious in Motion

First video of a Pokemon battle in Black and White.

Comment & Win: One Piece Vol. 52, 53

Time for a giveaway folks! Now, act civil, we don't want anyone to get hurt in the mad rush to win.

Beginner's Guide to FLCL

Gainax's madcap, surrealist anime, broken down for new viewers.

Ballz Deep

Steve gets intimately close to Dragon Ball Z, for science!

Top 3 Awful Anime Dubs

Grit your teeth and get your ear plugs ready cause this week we're taking on the three most amazingly bad dubs of all time!

Anime Caption Contest! -- 8/18/14

Let's party hard at the beach while it's still summer!

AKAME GA KILL! is... OK for a Harem Show?

Episode #2. W&L. I wish this were better.

Does Anime Get Too 'Niche?'

THE VICE PIT. Sometimes, it feels like watching somebody else's home movies, doesn't it?

I'm Trying Really Hard to Like ALDNOAH ZERO #2

...but it's sooooo self-serious!

Listen to the JOJO'S BIZARRE ADVENTURE Rap!

Richie Branson continues his weekly anime-inspired rap series with the hip-hop tribute "Stand-Up."

DRAGON BALL -- Does the First Saga Hold Up?

THE VICE PIT. We re-visited the very first DRAGON BALL arc and wonder if nostalgia has blinded us about Emperor Pilaf.

NOBUNAGA CONCERTO #1&2 -- Special Review

A spectacle like this only comes once in a great while.

JOJO'S BIZARRE ADVENTURE : STARDUST CRUSADERS #20 -- Special Review

Eat poo... and die?

AKAME GA KILL! is... OK for a Harem Show?

Episode #2. W&L. I wish this were better.

Anime Caption Contest! -- 8/18/14

Let's party hard at the beach while it's still summer!

I'm Trying Really Hard to Like ALDNOAH ZERO #2

...but it's sooooo self-serious!

Does Anime Get Too 'Niche?'

THE VICE PIT. Sometimes, it feels like watching somebody else's home movies, doesn't it?

DRAGON BALL -- Does the First Saga Hold Up?

THE VICE PIT. We re-visited the very first DRAGON BALL arc and wonder if nostalgia has blinded us about Emperor Pilaf.

Comparing ALDNOAH ZERO #3 to CODE GEASS

Episode #3. W&L. What did Lelouch do better?

Listen to the JOJO'S BIZARRE ADVENTURE Rap!

Richie Branson continues his weekly anime-inspired rap series with the hip-hop tribute "Stand-Up."

JOJO'S BIZARRE ADVENTURE : STARDUST CRUSADERS #20 -- Special Review

Eat poo... and die?

Mandatory Network

Submissions can take several hours to be approved.

Save ChangesCancel