Anime Vice News

Amateur vs. Expert: PERSONA 4 #20

The Investigation Team is just as surprised as we are by all the fanservice this week.

Welcome to Amateur vs. Expert, a new column wherein noted anime layperson Nick Robinson (Babylonian) squares off against anime savant Kristoffer Remmell (FoxxFireArt). The goal? To take our two columns, Anime Amateur and Anime Examiner, and combine them for your reading pleasure. Let's get started!

Kristoffer Remmell:

Hot off the heels of the school festival day episode. We're tossed right into another fun affair filled with tons more game-service that Persona 4 has become known for, and a little fanservice added to the mix. A bit of a misunderstanding has lead to the Investigation Team all invited to the traditional Japanese inn of Yukiko's family. What it all leads to is another in the misadventures of teen manhood dreams. It kind of gave me a Revenge of the Nerds vibe at times. For me, Nanako set the tone right from the start as she passed on a message from Margaret that our boy Narukami is a natural born gigolo. There was much laughter at that little bit. It's the utter definition of the idiom, "out of the mouths of babes". Can't say that I really blame her, Margaret knows what's going on in Yu's social life. She has the compendium to prove it.

I wasn't at all surprised to find that Yukiko's maxed S. Link story was tied into this episode. Seeing how Rise was settled in the pageant. Yukiko finally had her chance to realize what she wants to do with her life. She originally felt trapped in tradition, because she was feeling pressure to do so out of a sense of inheritance. Changing just for the sake of change isn't smart the smart choice. She finally made the decision on her own to stay. When she stood up to that slimy TV producer. I was really impressed how she put him down. Oh yeah, if anyone is curious what ramune is. It's a lemonade-based soda. It looks as if Yu and Teddie are drinking some during the ping-pong shot.

Given how uncomfortable you were with the bikini scenes from last week, Nick. How did you handle all the near nudity, and the ever so famous 'convenient censoring steam'? Were you a paranoid mess looking over your shoulder as you watched this one? That's used for a lot of bath scenes in anime and manga. In fact, some series such as H.O.T.D. and Strike Witches will only add the steam for the TV airing. The home versions wont have that at all. I foresee Persona 4 keeping the steam. It's actually a little shocking we saw as much as we did. The anime finally really earned that TV-MA rating.

Nick Robinson:

I can't lie: I laughed at this episode a lot. Like you mentioned, the 'gigolo' bit was great, as was Yukiko accidentally inviting everyone over. Teddie's Japanese voice actor continues to turn in amazing performances: his ghostly whisper voice was hilarious, and his "YO!" moment was probably the hardest I laughed at the episode. There's something so innocent and adorable about Teddie's perviness in this show. For whatever reason, Yosuke feels like the 16-year-old equivalent of a dirty old man, but Teddie is somehow immaculate in his lewdness.

Speaking of Yosuke, it feels like he's growingly less homophobic toward Kanji, which is great. There were a handful of times where Kanji said something that could've easily been misconstrued by Yosuke or Yu, but they let it slide. It feels like a deliberate choice: as the Investigation Team gets more comfortable with each other, they're shedding some of those insecurities we saw earlier in the show. Good on 'em for getting character development in here from time to time.

P4A also continues to pull some insanely specific deep cuts from the game: that bizarre song Margaret sings in the opening of the episode is a reference to this unvoiced throwaway line from her S-Link. Conversely, they seem to be going out of their way to integrate non-canon stuff whenever possible. Great example: they sure are getting a lot of mileage out of Aika, aren't they? When I heard they were introducing a new character for P4A, I expected that we'd see her maybe once or twice, but man, it feels like she's been in like half the episodes now.

As far as the hot springs fanservice stuff goes: yeah, it was gross. They're still catering to the worst contingent of anime fans, and I'm still uncomfortable with it. But somehow more distracting than how exploitative it felt was the fact that it was reeeeeeeeally poorly drawn! Like, laughably bad! If you have to put in shameless fanservice, don't leave it to the animation B-team! It honestly looks like the animators intended for some of these half-finished sketches to be covered in steam, but the editing team opted to be edgier by showing more skin, resulting in these eerie, featureless figures. They've actually managed to make their show creepy on multiple levels. It's astounding.

Kristoffer Remmell:

It's completely pointless to argue with you on how you feel about a certain aspect of the series -- though that's quickly becoming some of our readers favor parts in the comments. You bring up plenty of valid points, but I just don't get the same 'gross' vibe that you do from the level of fanservice the series has. This is at it's core a story of adolescent adventures. It's not as if these were adult men and teen girls. That would be creepy. This level of comical misunderstanding could be compared to old sitcoms, such as Who's the Boss or Three's Company. (Please, don't let me be the only one old enough to get those references.)

Aika's use through the series has been interesting. Japan tends to like adding certain things when remaking a product. Look at how the P4 Vita version is adding a new girl to the mix. It's just a thing to give some added value and justify buying again for people who already own the game. I never really followed the P4 manga version deeply enough to know if it added anyone. Still, I really like Aika and how she's been used. I just don't foresee her making the same plot impact as a character like Makinami Mari Illustrious is to Evangelion.

Yosuke's personal growth reminds me of quite a few people I knew in school that were just as hyperbolic to homosexuality. That was until they actually got to know someone who is homosexual. I do feel I should point out that Kanji's sexuality isn't as black and white as many first thought. Too many took his Shadow literally. I always loved how his sexuality wasn't his defining characteristic. He's more the tough guy with a heart of gold.

Nick Robinson:

Here's the thing, though: if you're talking about the show's audience and the characters being exploited, it is a situation involving adult men and teen girls. Objectively, the content itself isn't that repulsive - although I definitely wouldn't brag about watching an anime that extensively depicts high school girls naked in a hot spring. To me, what's troubling is the implication that we, as viewers, are supposed to be super excited that we get to see naked cartoon minors. It's sleazy, and I hate it. Then again, at least it's not Nisemonogatari, an apparently brilliant show whose pedophilic and incestuous undertones are so blatant that Anime Vice editor William Taylor is finding it difficult to recommend. P4A could be way, way worse!

And, somehow putting aside the uncomfortable amounts of teen nudity, this episode really was a blast. Yukiko's S-Link stuff fit in nicely here, hitting home the point that this is mostly a remarkably well-planned show, and yeah, watching her tell those reporters off was wonderfully cathartic. I'm also finding that this show sometimes follows the game to a fault: it's still highly obvious how awkwardly shoehorned in Teddie's S-Link scenes are, even if they're mercifully brief in the show.

That ending was nuts, though, right? It implies that Yu had known about the mysterious letter for more than a week prior to this episode. That's pretty crazy, I think, but it's also something I'm sure will be addressed next time. Still! Whoa!

There was a lot to love about this episode, and I wish they hadn't played up the fanservice angle so much so I could endorse it without reservation. The use of the spooky music during the room invasion was an excellent touch, and a great example of how subtle this show's sense of humor can be when it wants to. The comedy came fast and often this week, and this is probably the closest P4A has come yet to being as funny as the game. I liked it a lot, and with only five episodes until the end, it's about time we start savoring these humorous moments before they dry up completely.

Kristoffer Remmell (FoxxFireArt) is a freelance graphic artist, writer, and over all mystery geek.- Follow for news updates: @ animevice / @ FoxxFireArt

Nick Robinson (Babylonian) is a Whiskey Media intern and a journalism student. Won't you follow him on Twitter at @Babylonian? He'd be ever so appreciative!

FoxxFireArt moderator is online on March 6, 2012 at 12:19 a.m.

@zaldar:

Once again, you are using anime "porn" for your example and not anime TV. I could point you to a US porn actress called Kitty (sometimes Kitty Yung). She's Asian, completely flat chested, dresses like she's 10, and talks like she's six. It's disturbing as hell, and she's not the only one that does that. That's a real life human being. Anime is a drawing. Most often, the actors and actresses are in their 20-50s. You are using some of the most extreme examples and comparing it to average American TV. Instead, point to examples of underage sexual exploitation of girls in mainstream anime that falls within the same age range. Naruto, One Piece, BLEACH, FMA.

Then there is the issue that most animation in the US is designed to target young audiences. Anime in Japan is more often created among multiple age groups. Some targeted young, some teens, some mature, and some adults only.

Not to mention, what sort of self righteous statement is that Strike Witches should have never been made? If you don't like it. It's one thing. No one says you have to watch it, but to say someone should have never made it. I hate reality TV, but I don't go around saying it should never have been made. I just don't watch it.

YotaruVegetaon March 6, 2012 at 1:37 a.m.

Although I felt that I could have seen more than I would want to, I think that a scene from the game is fair, uh, game to reproduce in the anime.

I think what shocks me is seeing Naoto as a female. I liked that her figure was left to you imagination, and that she didn't dress as a typical girl.

Although they're not showing hints of dong, they do have quite a bit of man love going around in this show.

It takes a lot to disgust me about fan service. Usually it's lazy fan service that bugs me.

Neuroticon March 6, 2012 at 3:15 a.m.

@zaldar said:

Yes Akira is excessively violent, if you can give me an american movie that portrayed teenagers nude and where it was supposed to be titalating then please do so.

American Pie and almost every other dumb high school/college frat movie ever made?

American historians consider the early 1900's the victorian age in America, I have no idea if British ones agree, it ended here with the roaring twenties.

By definition the Victorian age ended when Queen Victoria died. In 1901.

The major is not a teenager so her nudity is immaterial

So nudity is not your problem, it's the fact these girls are underage? I hope that doesn't mean your problem with Europe being more open about sex/nudity was not meant to imply that we're more open about underage sex/nudity? Cos Europe has just as much of a witch hunt for anything resembling a paedophile as America does.

Anyway, this brings us all the way back round to the original beef Nick had with this. I would be totally with you if the writers forced a situation where the girls had to be naked for some cheap fanservice. But being naked in a bath is a pretty natural thing to do, don't you think? Not only that but it's hardly as if they linger on or leer at it. The most you see is the top half of Chie's boobs, and only for a few seconds or so. The rest of that part is so poorly animated, that only the crazy otaku you refer to could derive sexual gratification from it. The other scenes where they're naked, they're mostly underwater and the camera focuses on their faces. I honestly do not see a problem with this episode or the one before it. I say this as someone who actively avoids fanservice anime (regardless of the character's age) and rolls their eyes and sighs when it comes up it a show I like.

Vortextkon March 6, 2012 at 3:39 a.m.
To expect any anime with highschool girls in it drawn cute to not go to a pool/bathhouse/ocean and be half naked atleast once, is naive. To enjoy those scenes for "story, characters and narrative" is as well. Seen it coming. I rather just see full nudity. Animated or real, just something to not be pretending it's there for any other reason. Don't care they're teenagers because anything resembling pedophilia in my mind is washed away because I like a Woman's body, not a little boy/girl. I thought 17 year olds were hot when I was 17, I still do. It's not illegal to think like that, especially when an anime teenager has a C cup and a model's figure.(though surprisingly not with clothes ON)
 
I find it funny Nick has a problem with this kind of scene in anime. Not that it's a wrong feeling to have, I understand it if I don't share it completely; it just seems like he would have to avoid...all anime then. I'm part open minded to art, ethics, morality and the like and I'm part desensitized from seeing a million half naked anime chicks in a bath or pool or combo beating some poor halfwit silly for accidentally stepping into an UNLOCKED bathroom where they were bathing. Though I do grow tired of it.
Turambaron March 6, 2012 at 4:39 a.m.
@zaldar: Your assumption that somehow RapeLay (and anime in general outside of a famous few) are actually accepted by mainstream Japanese society is absolutely hilarious. 
SergioBon March 6, 2012 at 8:48 a.m.

Norayon March 6, 2012 at 11:38 a.m.

1) The argument that "this arouses some people therefore it's filth" is 100% disingenuous. There are also people who get off on seeing women's feet, does this mean we should never show feet, ever? If you can think of a fetish, there's someone out there who gets off on that shit. (Christ, I mean, vore? Really?)

2) Context is key. We see characters being naked, but we DON'T see excessive nudity. People are naked in baths. Japanese inns have hot springs. The entire situation lasts seconds. The characters are not sexualized any more than is normal in this context (ie. Yosuke wonders if anyone saw anything because that's what a 16-17 year old would think about). The only thing I take some issue with, and I still think it's minor, is that the girls all seem to suddenly have larger breasts. But given that outside of screengrabs, the show really does not frame them long enough that you can seriously study this, I don't think it's a big deal. You could just as easily blame it on the quality of the animation. Look at Chie's boobs in the screengrab above, they're fucking weird-lookin'.

3) P4A does not exist in a vacuum. Who is this show for? Young adults, teenagers. Look at things aimed at that target audience: movies (American Pie, Project X, Havoc), comic books, video games, television, music, anime... all of it is heavy on cheap sex appeal. Shit, I think P4A is classy compared to all that lowest common denominator trash. If this scene upsets you, why is that? Because other people may get off on it? That's their problem. Is it perhaps making you uncomfortable because there's a possiblity that nude underage girls (and we're talking 17 here, which is just a year shy from not being jailbait in most parts of the world, which is a ridiculous standard, not accounting for emotional maturity differing radically from person to person etc, that I won't even get into) excite YOU? That's okay, because society tells you that that is wrong. But that's the way we're built, man. To deny that sexuality plays any part in this scene is just as sanctimonious as to say it's nothing but pandering. It's somewhere in the middle. Most 17 year olds are sexual beings as well. The difference between Europe (I'm from Holland, one of the most open-minded countries re: sex around) and the US is that Europe has a history of exploring that topic in cinema and television, and we're okay with that. Does that make us pedophiles? No, there's a difference between accepting and respecting that from a distance and actively horn-dogging over underage girls. Sexual repression can be at least as harmful as over-sexualization. P4A acknowledges that teenagers are sexual beings, in fact, characters struggling with their sexuality and physicality (Kanji, Naoto) is one of its major themes. And it explores those topics tastefully and intelligently.

And that is why I think anyone raging over a few short scenes in this series is severely overreacting. Good day.

WatanabeKazumaon March 6, 2012 at 3:30 p.m.

Without wanting to regurgitate what I've already said over on GB regarding the issue, anyone who thinks Yosuke is flat-out homophobic, is kind of missing the point. I haven't caught up to this episode yet, but I doubt that this adaptation would diverge so much that his character would be portrayed in such a manner.

The game in general did a great job in portraying teenage adolescence, especially with Yosuke. He is definitely vulnerable to the same uninformed prejudices that many experience at that age, he definitely matures in that respect.

Babylonian staff on March 6, 2012 at 4:46 p.m.

@Hailinel said:

@Turambar said:

@FoxxFireArt: Actually, Nick was definitely up in arms enraged over the swim suits in that episode as well. He is consistent on his stance at least.

All the same, his harping on this of all things in regards to P4 makes it far more difficult to take his opinions on the show seriously. I'd actually say that this series of columns has largely been a disappointment.

That's fine! I mean, in a perfect world, you might not bristle when people criticize something you like - honest question, do you think this show has a single flaw? - but to each his own, I guess! I think this show has frequently bad animation and I wish it was capable the seemingly impossible task that is keeping its teenage protagonists' clothes on for more than three episodes in a row, but that's just me. If you want a list of P4A's good features (of which there are many), I feel like we're doing a good job of covering that, but if you want an article 100% free of criticism: you're right, that's not us.

@Neurotic said:

The (very, very mild) nudity in this episode is a total non-issue and I'm sick of seeing it being compared to Strike Witches and other such fanservice-heavy shows and being considered the problem with modern anime.

Hey: literally no one is doing that. I've actually gone far out of my way both this week and last week to point out in the column itself that this show is extremely far from being the worst offender with this sort of thing. As far as I can tell, Strike Witches only comes up when you guys are apologizing for how Persona 4 isn't that bad. Which, congratulations! You're right! Persona 4: The Animation is not as bad as Strike Witches! But if you think that grants it immunity from criticism, you're crazy people.

I think you think P4A gets a pass for only being a 6 on the creepy scale instead of a 10. I don't agree.

@Noray said:

1) The argument that "this arouses some people therefore it's filth" is 100% disingenuous. There are also people who get off on seeing women's feet, does this mean we should never show feet, ever? If you can think of a fetish, there's someone out there who gets off on that shit. (Christ, I mean, vore? Really?)

If a significant part of your case boils down to "This would only be arousing to people with a nudity fetish," your argument might be weak in spots!

sickVisionz moderator on March 6, 2012 at 6:34 p.m.

@Neurotic said:

@zaldar said:

Yes Akira is excessively violent, if you can give me an american movie that portrayed teenagers nude and where it was supposed to be titalating then please do so.

American Pie and almost every other dumb high school/college frat movie ever made?

I was going to bring this up if nobody else did. In the first Transformers movie Megan Fox was supposed to be a high school senior, just like some of the characters in this show, and they had her in booty shorts bent over a car. Even someone's 40+ year old Dad was like, "whoa, she's hot." This type of content totally exists in the west and it's not rare in the least bit. Billion dollar Hollywood blockbusters have it. Heck, I forget the name of it now but the college comedy with Will Ferrell, the lady from King of Queens, and one of the dudes who is in like every Wes Anderson movie... anyways, there's a scene where they totally sexualize a high schooler and even have sex with her. It's played for laughs ad the reasoning is, "she looked legal," both of which sum up Persona 4's use of fanservice, but that's another example of this stuff in Western media.

If this was When they Cry where they put a 5 year old in fishnets and grown men gawk at her in a state of arousal or like Nisemonogatari (arghh, I hate to knock this show) where a guy is fantasizing about a 5th grader, I could see the outrage and shock... but it isn't. It's a bunch of 16 or 17 year olds who could easily pass as 20 year olds in extremely mild semi-sexual situations that would probably fly in a PG-13 movie.

zaldaron March 6, 2012 at 9:02 p.m.

Well I have had my say and here I am only going to say that yes having the sex toys on display in an open window disturbs me. Yes I believe strike witches shouldn't be made because it sexualizes young children to the point of wrongness.

I was taught America had a Victorian age but honestly that is immaterial to me not being a historian. I don't think this would have flown in a PG-13 movie but I may have been wrong. I am puritian when it comes to sex which is not something I apologize for and yes I do tend on the conservative side of American independent politics. I couldn't vote for Santorum but I am likely to vote for Romney. (mostly for economic reasons though). In Europe of Canada I would be considered far right most likly. But we have once again beat this dead horse within an inch of its life. So I'm done.

the examples you give are movies I have not seen and would not see. The megan fox movie she was not nude which does make a difference but I likely would have found it distatesful. Modern comedies with the way they play up the frat lifestyle which what you describe sounds like I feel the same way about. Anime is supposed to be better than western media not fall into the same traps. As for Nisemonogatari don't feel bad knocking on it from everything I have seen they destroyed what could have been a very good series.

Hailinelon March 6, 2012 at 10:21 p.m.

@Babylonian: Yes, the show has flaws, but I consider those flaws mostly to be a result of the truncation certain story events needed to go through to fit in the scope of a twenty-five episode series. And yes, the animation is rough in spots, but I don't openly complain about it because I have seen far worse animation in other productions. The video game that this series is based off of is one of my all-time favorites, and to see the series treat the game with as much reverence as it has does wonders for my viewpoint on it, this much is true, but while I have noticed flaws here and there, they don't bother me enough to complain about what I'm seeing.

And I'm not saying that the columns shouldn't be critical of the show. It's the manner in which you're being critical that I find absurd and irksome.

@zaldar said:

Well I have had my say and here I am only going to say that yes having the sex toys on display in an open window disturbs me.

Then you really need to grow up. If a sex toy is just sitting on display in a window, it's not exactly something to get worked up over. I mean, no one's using it, and if someone passing by feels the inclination to buy one, then hey, more power to him (or her). And what is this about "anime is supposed to be better than western media"? In what way? I'm even shocked to see you make such a claim given that you've been railing incessantly on the medium in here.

TopographicOceanon March 6, 2012 at 11:38 p.m.

Gawd, people are going to think is pretentious as hell, but I've reading the discussion and just had to say this. I can't see many people agreeing with what I'm going to say but, eh, at least I've said it.

This argument is going absolutely nowhere.

First of all, if Babylonian thinks that the fanservice in P4A is too much, what the hell does it matter? It's not like you can change his mind. He has seen it, disagreed with it and mentioned it when it comes up. So what if he's what you would consider a prude? Yes, he 's criticising something about the show which you wouldn't consider a flaw in the first place. That's not the point. He thinks it's wrong, that is not going to change just because you tell him otherwise. Even if you think his reasoning is wrong, why should he change his mind? He's made up his mind already that this is wrong. Deal with it.

Now, on the flip side, just because you disagree with something on a moral level does not make it wrong either. It simply means you disagree with it. The point here is also that just because people disagree with your moral values, Babylonian, does not mean it is above the board to imply they have none, or imply they may be 'crazy people' and act borderline condescending to people that simply disagree with you (I might be reading into your chipper attitude in your posts with this point so feel free to ignore this if it's just my misunderstanding. My reading comprehension was never the best XD). Should they have given up after the first time you complained about this? Yes. But should you just make the problem worse? Arguably not unless you're getting some sort of kick out of it. In which case, I'd find that morally questionable.

I'm not trying to be an ass and say don't discuss the issue, but you're trying to actually convince each other of your point of view and it really isn't going anywhere. Like zaldar said, the horse is dead and you're beating it.

I'll add that I, personally, think Babylonian is being too extreme in his views but, hey, it's his views. If he thinks it's wrong how they are handling the fanservice in the show (hell, it's very existence), he has every right to, for whatever reasons he chooses to. He also has the right to state in his articles, regardless of our chagrin. They are partly his articles. He can write what he wants in his sections. I've been enjoying the articles immensely, so be honest.

Again, not trying to dump on the conversation because it's fine to disagree with each other. In fact, it's a good thing. It's gets discussion going! It's just that this discussion is not really going anywhere but bashing Babylonian and him firing back.

Hailinelon March 7, 2012 at 12:04 a.m.

@TopographicOcean: You've said a lot for someone that thinks this discussion is meaningless. No one here is under the delusion that we can change Nick's mind if we argue hard enough. We're holding this debate because we all want to express our views on points that many of us strongly disagree with Nick on.

TopographicOceanon March 7, 2012 at 12:34 a.m.

@Hailinel:

I didn't say it was meaningless, I said it was going nowhere considering all that's happening is Nick saying 'I don't like it' and you guys saying 'But your logic behind disliking it is flawed'. The issue itself is fine and a prickly one for westerners like ourselves to deal with, but when it comes down to both sides saying 'your arguments don't work' what the heck is the point?

I should have just kept my trap shut, clearly. I'll remember that in future.

Neuroticon March 7, 2012 at 3:14 a.m.

@Babylonian said:

I think you think P4A gets a pass for only being a 6 on the creepy scale instead of a 10. I don't agree.

No, I just don't think P4A gets a 6 on the creepy scale to begin with.

Everything I've wanted to say about this has been said already, either by me or someone else. I welcome the article about last week's episode so we can finally go back to talking about the story and the sub-par animation.

Turambaron March 7, 2012 at 4:15 a.m.
@TopographicOcean: If we all just went "OPINIONS" and stopped there, analysis in general would be a very, very boring place for all involved. 
 
@Babylonian: It's not a case of the blog being free from criticism for me.  It's simply the things you spend a lot of time criticizing whenever given the opportunity: sexual depiction and production value, are the lowest of low hanging fruits in analysis and makes the blog predictable and formulaic at times, which does not make for a good read.  Like I said previously, keep writing about it if it means that much to you though. It'd be disingenuous otherwise.   And Zaldar is specifically comparing this show to Strike Witches.
 
Also, you still haven't answered my question yet.
TopographicOceanon March 7, 2012 at 4:30 a.m.

@Turambar:

I said I'd shut my trap but...

It's fine to discuss it. I never said it wasn't. I should have clarified myself further, it seems. Some of the other discussions on the same topic on these exact same articles have been thought provoking and very good. However it came down to calling Babylonian out and him basically making some weird implications through his posts. (zaldar is more guilty of this, skipping the implication part).

Maybe I'm just oversensitive to the way people 'debate' here. Opinions are great, and discussing them is even better. This discussion, however, just sounded like it was going in circles and would end up leading nowhere the way it was. It's not like me posting changes anything... Hell, it was basically me venting more than anything. Like I said to Hailinel, I probably should have just kept my trap shut.

sickVisionz moderator on March 7, 2012 at 5:42 a.m.

@zaldar said:

the examples you give are movies I have not seen and would not see. The megan fox movie she was not nude which does make a difference but I likely would have found it distatesful. Modern comedies with the way they play up the frat lifestyle which what you describe sounds like I feel the same way about. Anime is supposed to be better than western media not fall into the same traps. As for Nisemonogatari don't feel bad knocking on it from everything I have seen they destroyed what could have been a very good series.

Anime is just Japanese cartoons. It was never designed to be better than Western media or above Western media. I think you put too much faith in the medium as a revolutionary agent or a beacon of higher standards rather than just another medium for telling a story.

@Turambar said:

It's simply the things you spend a lot of time criticizing whenever given the opportunity: sexual depiction and production value, are the lowest of low hanging fruits in analysis

Production values are pretty important imo. A lot of people write these things off (I assume because they want to be seen as a person who looks beyond that) but to me it's art, which is perfectly valid and not "the lowest of low hanging fruit in analysis" and it can be a huge boost or deficit for any series.

Turambaron March 7, 2012 at 12:02 p.m.
@sickVisionz said:

@Turambar said:

It's simply the things you spend a lot of time criticizing whenever given the opportunity: sexual depiction and production value, are the lowest of low hanging fruits in analysis

Production values are pretty important imo. A lot of people write these things off (I assume because they want to be seen as a person who looks beyond that) but to me it's art, which is perfectly valid and not "the lowest of low hanging fruit in analysis" and it can be a huge boost or deficit for any series.

Production value is useful in terms of series recommendations, but that is not what an analysis blog is.  People who read that blog are people who are already watching the series.  If it looks good, we already know that.  If it doesn't look good, we also already know that.  Any differences of opinion had no need to be stretched out into multiple entries.  Week after week mention of visuals is repetitive, redundant, and a bore to read for me.

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