What the F@#$ Did Just Watch?! EVANGELION Episode #17

Topic started by No_name_here on May 4, 2010. Last post by agila61 4 years, 4 months ago.
Post by No_name_here (856 posts) See mini bio Level 11
Staff

 Is this a fanart? Or is it official?
 Is this a fanart? Or is it official?

Well, that had to be the most OMINOUS solo game of pick-up basketball ever committed to film. There was just such a serious underscore to Toji shooting some hoops - - it was as if his free throws held the fate of Tokyo-3 entire! He hasn’t even suited up into his Eva yet and the “fourth child” is already got the world in his hands. Ha! And yeah, even though they never come out and say he’s the newest Eva pilot here, it was four kinds of obvious that he is. That’s got to be the biggest slap in the face for Shinji (even bigger than red palm Rei left on his cheek earlier). The kid who bullied you for not piloting your Eva to his satisfaction is now going to be joining your team? Sheesh… that’s a twist I wasn’t expecting. They still haven’t explained what the rhyme or reason is to these kids selection, either. I remember somebody saying that there was some surprise to explain the illogic of entrusting these walking WMD’s to 16-year-olds, but I’ve yet to see it.

Going back to what I was saying about the underscore earlier, I have to say that the soundtrack to this series is really growing on me. Keep in mind that my own point of reference for long-form anime shows so far is VISION OF ESCAFLOWNE. While I don’t think this score is necessarily as tuneful as ESCAFLOWNE’s (that is, I can’t really hum along to as I could to, say, Falkan’s theme) it certainly has a muscularity that I appreciate. The drums and highly-strung strings ratchet up the sense of tension and danger when called for - - really making it seem like the world’s about to end. And I suppose that fits the tone of this versus ESCAFLOWNE. EVANGELION feels a lot more aggressive and muscular by comparison.

Some discussion regarding dubbing arose over my review of the last episode. I’ll confess that I’ve been watching this dubbed the whole time. That’s really continuing from my watching of FLCL dubbed. I tried to watch it subbed, but the dialogue ran so fast that it was truly too hard to keep up. I switched to the dubbed version out of necessity. But I don’t know - - while I did watch ESCAFLOWNE subbed, I’ve preferred to watch features like AKIRA and PRINCESS MONONOKE dubbed. I think it’s because dialogue frequently runs so fast in these (it’s the realm of speedlines, after all) that having to read the dialogue, rather than hearing it, draws me out of the experience.

Anyway, that’s my take… I’m curious to hear all of yours. I know anime fans can be very passionate about their preferences in the dubbed/subbed divide. Where do you lunatics in the Anime Vice community stand? 

-- Tom Pinchuk is the writer of UNIMAGINABLE for Arcana Comics and HYBRID BASTARDS! for Archaia. Pre-order the HYBRID BASTARDS! hardcover now on Amazon.com.

Post by REDRUN (17 posts) See mini bio Level 8
I picture does look a bit like fanart from away, but up close its an "oh, I see what they did". (put away them pervy thoughts)
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,746 posts) See mini bio Level 20
As i have said -  while the sub is great the Eva dub is excellently put together, i would say at least as good as the jap voice performances. The only problems I have with the dub are with some minor characters (cough, kenske cough) and voice changes for directors cut. (gendo, and especially "black" hyuga)  
Spike spencers shinji i believe is very good, probably better than his jap counter part (megumi ogata), I also prefer Tiffeny Grants english Asuka (though many disagree) Rei is well done in both ( in Japanese she's megumi hayashibara)  but i give the edge to Amanda Winn lee, who is also ADV's adr director for EVA. Misato is very good in both, with her jap seiryu being the famous Kotono Mitsuishi who played sailor moon, and her english actress being Allison Keith.  
Eva is for sure one of those anime's that are great subbed or dubbed, theres a rich history behind both language's voicing to the show (rumors anno had shinji's voice actress actually choke asuka's va while performing their famous scene in EoE in Japanese, allegations of Amanda Winn lee going "mad" with power in her sound edits for the english Death and Rebirth) 
 
That being said this episode is cool, definitive tension mounting with the touji situation.Good info revealed on the Marduk Institute (named after a Babylonian god) I love the scene in Rei's apartment when shinji picks up her trash and she says "thank you", this is another turning point for her character. Gendo's speech about the city, while on the train with fuyutsuki is very well written. Its hilarious when kaji puts "the moves" on maya. Well also see thos melons kaji is watering again.  
 
Love the ending-asuka finding out its toji who is the new pilot, hikari humming the ending theme (fly me to the moon) while making toji's lunch, th new eva unit being flown in on a cross, and the final shot at the net by toji. 
Post by FoxxFireArt (2,640 posts) See mini bio Level 25
Moderator
That image is official. It's the cover for the 10th Volume of the manga. Just without the graphics. The events of this episode are more along the lines of Volume 6. This image is a tad spoiler-ish.
 
I don't think the reason for selecting sixteen year olds is every really explained in the series, but there is something explained about how the pilots are selected.
 
Normally, I'm far more interested in subbed versions of animes. I find that the dub cast can't hit the tones right. They tend to lack the emotion of the scenes. That being said, I far prefer the dubbed version of this particular series. The cast, for the most part, really get the feel for the moments and you can feel the scenes through the characters. Tiffany Grant, Asuka's VA, is also better in her German then Yuko Miyamura.
If you ever try out Code Geass. I highly recommend the subs over the dubs. It's not that the dubs are 'bad'. The voice of the lead, Lelouch, is just completely off for what that series was trying to do.
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,746 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@FoxxFireArt said:  . 
If you ever try out Code Geass. I highly recommend the subs over the dubs. It's not that the dubs are 'bad'. The voice of the lead, Lelouch, is just completely off for what that series was trying to do. "
As JYB is for ichigo, though i thought his lelouch and kozumi were pretty good. 
Post by constanzadellarosa (234 posts) See mini bio Level 15
The Eva soundtrack is superb, try to check it out.
 
Sub or Dub? I liked the Evangelion dub ; actually, the first time I watched the series was English-dubbed , later I re-watched it subtitled and then I saw it with the spanish/south american dub (I'm from Latin America), but i tend to watch first the subs to enjoy the original VA, and then switch to the dub to compare (due to my job, it's an interesting thing to do).
Post by Oneeyedjacks (46 posts) See mini bio Level 2
@FoxxFireArt said:

The voice of the lead, Lelouch, is just completely off for what that series was trying to do. "

Interestingly enough a lot of Japanese fans actually perferred Johnny Young Bosch's version of Lelouch to that of Jun Fukuyama claiming that it felt more fluid and didn't feel like he was over-acting.
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
@hitsusatsu11: Amanda Winn Lee, while a prominent ADR director for many ADV shows, was not the ADR director for the TV series; Matt Greenfield was. 
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,746 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@ReVolutionOfEvangelion: greenfields tiffany grants husband right?
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,746 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@ReVolutionOfEvangelion: anyway i know she was the adr director for EoE and Death and Rebirth 
Post by FoxxFireArt (2,640 posts) See mini bio Level 25
Moderator
@hitsusatsu11: 
Don't get me wrong. I thought Johnny Yong Bosch does a good job as Ichigo, and he really owned Renton in Eureka Seven. As Lelouch, he was utterly off. The interesting thing about Leluoch is that if this was any other series. By design and the voice actor. Lelouch would be the villain and Suzaku would be the hero. In Code Geass the norms of character archetypes was reversed.
There is also the issue that Lelouch comes from royalty. He should have an formality and almost regal tone to him. Bosch didn't come across that way at all. He sounded too classic, hero-youth character.
 
In the final episode, that moment of Nunnally crying was just painful to listen to in the Japanese version. Your heart just breaks for her. I didn't feel that in the dubs.
 
@Oneeyedjacks said:
" Interestingly enough a lot of Japanese fans actually perferred Johnny Young Bosch's version of Lelouch to that of Jun Fukuyama claiming that it felt more fluid and didn't feel like he was over-acting. "
I find that very suspect. Considering most the Japanese audience probably have never even watched the dubs or even cared that it was dubbed. Just saying "a lot" is hardly telling. One might consider 30 or 100 people a lot. It's hardly in comparison to the maybe 100,000's that watched the series in Japan.
I also wasn't saying he over acted. I felt he couldn't strike the tone. The tone he used never felt like it really matched the expressions on the screen.
Lelouch is suppose to be dramatic. Even more so when he is posing as Zero. In the costume, Lelouch speaks even more formally and dramatic. As Zero he's trying to be a showman and inspiring. I just didn't feel that with Bosch.
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
Official directions for the English dub:
 
Long story short, "the English dub got drastically better as it went along" -- so if you've *already* been watching the English dub up to episodes 16-17, and enjoyed it, you should stay with them.   
 
I talked with Tiffany Grant about this in the interview I did with her (that was posted as news on AnimeVice last week) -- you have to remember that back in 1997 when they were making this, standard practice was to only dub a show two episodes at a time, because that's how many fit on a VHS tape from Japan.  So the problem was that *they never knew what was going on more than two episodes in advance*.
 
This is why episodes 1-7 have a particularly wacky performance from everyone.  Its also one of the big reasons for Eva dub hate:  a lot of people ONLY try out the first episode, then drop it; when really, they just kept improving as they went.  I hate it when people only judge a show by the first episode.  Anyway, I generally advise that "characters sound more or less what they're supposed to sound like by episode 8"...AND that "it got truly amazing by around episode 17"
 
So if that's the rule of thumb, you cannot possibly drop the English dub now;  it "evolves" from not great to mindblowing by the end.  
 
Truly, if you can point to one show where you can actually see the transition from wacky early-to-mid 1990's dubs, to the "actually good dubs" era, it sort of began with Evangelion, I mean it straddles the two eras, with the later half being when dubs turned good. 
 
If you ever review Rebuild of Evangelion, this will be really important:  many of the earlier reviews by "other news sites" scoffed at it because "its exactly like the first six episodes!" (its not quite, btw).....but the problem is that *the English dub* is entirely new; everyone except Misato and Shinji was recast.  HOWEVER, Allison Keith-Shipp's Misato sounds 13 years worth of experience different; its like its played by someone else, it was amazing.
 
***but I digress....
 
How do they pick Eva pilots? -- That was addressed just now:  remember when Misato talks to Kaji (after he talks to Maya), and he reveals that "there IS no Marduk Institute!"
 
The cover story was that "the Marduk Institute picks the pilots" -- last episode, #16, Kaji found out that all of the constituent companies that make up "the Marduk Institute" are just a bunch of dummy front companies.  Now in episode 17, he spells it out for Misato:  there is no Marduk Institute whatsoever, the pilots are hand-picked by Gendo and Ritsuko.
 
What are the *criteria* for being an Eva pilot?  ...Misato has a line directly about this at the start of episode 19, when even Shinji asks "why is Toji an Eva pilot this cannot possibly be a coincidence" etc.  Not a full explanation but she spells it out more.  but truly, the big episodes where they explain this are....I guess episode 21.
 
***Look, to give mild spoilers, episode 21 is a gigantic flashback episode called "the Birth of Nerv" that starts in 1999 and shows how Nerv and the Evangelions got created, and the backstory of Gendo, Fuyutsuki, Ritsuko, and Misato.  It doesn't give FULL answers, but "the most answers we ever got" for certain questions come in episode 21:  like "what are Angels and where do they come from?", and "What are Evangelions?" and "what exactly happened to Shinji's mother?" 
 
Also at this point, Toji isn't "the bully that beat up Shinji" -- even when he beat him up, he was angry because his sister was injured.  And he's actually been pretty much friends with Shinji ever since episode 5 or so.  
 
***once again:  in the talkback for episode 20, we're going to have to warn you about the "director's cut episodes 21-24" and figure out how to watch those.  The English dub was "mixed" - quite literally;  it was made a full 7 years later, so RETURNING Voice actors had an even better idea of their characters -- but the third-tier characters often had to be recast, and don't sound as good.  Its only a really really bad problem in episode 24.
 
Again, if you're worried, we're going to bring this up again as we go along. 
Post by daotherkenji (48 posts) See mini bio Level 4
I guess Im weird since I dont have a prefrence for sub/dub. I just watch both versions and it depends on the show. I do have some issues reading the subs on shows that have extremely fast dialog like sayonara zetsubo sensei and seto no haynome but I still enjoy them while I pause them alot.   
@FoxxFireArt:  IMO Jun to me was perfect for Zero but JYB was perfect for Lelouch and did a ok zero. Jun gives you goosebumps when he gives those speeches like when he saved the hostages and announced the black Knights to the world. It did feel like JYB became better as the show progressed the more he got to do Zero but I really think his Lelouch was spot on being uninterested in everything but his little sister and destroying Britannia which happens to be located in the USA. I laugh every time I see the map of Britannia.
Post by sickVisionz (4,263 posts) See mini bio Level 24
Moderator
Gendo is my favorite character and the OG Eva dub has epic Gendo.  I'd keep watching it for that alone.
 
I'm amped to see what you think about the series from 18 on it.  I was following the series on Cartoon Network and when 18 ended, I ordered the boxset the next day because I couldn't wait a until it came on next Thursday.  Everything starts hitting the fan with 18 and doesn't stop until the end credits of End of Evangelion.   
 
The music is by Shiro Sagisu.  He does music for Bleach as well.  Some of it is similar, most of it isn't.
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
 The creators of the series often point to episode 16 as "the point when the series noticeably turned and we got darker and more psychological"........but really, there were at least SOME funny parts after that.
 
Episode 18 is officially the point when "the ceremony of innocence is drowned" (as the saying goes) the turning point in the series when it becomes unrelentingly dark and can never go back.
 
Some people actually think that the second half being darker was "revenge on fans" and that it was always supposed to be like the first half.   Well first off,   we know from plot outlines that it was ALWAYS going to somehow get darker (particularly, some of the plot twist reveals couldn't have been spur of the moment, had to have been set up long in advance if you pay attention)
 
 
But really that was sort of the point:  if it started off unrelentingly dark and gritty you wouldn't care as much.  No, the smart move was to make some relatively happy episodes, to make us ACTUALLY CARE about the characters as a result.....setting up the house of cards to knock it down.
 

 
 

Post by agila61 (87 posts) See mini bio Level 4
I vaguely recall the first time I saw it being dubbed - it was broadcast in prime time on SBS in Australia in the summer and autumn of 1999. When I saw it the second time more recently, it was on DVD and I watched it subbed. I preferred the sub, but perhaps I read fast - I normally watch the sub. I'll try the dub if it has a reputation for being especially good, like Cowboy Bebop.
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