What the F@#$ Did I Just Watch?! EVANGELION Episode #26

Topic started by No_name_here on May 18, 2010. Last post by hitsusatsu11 3 years, 8 months ago.
Post by No_name_here (854 posts) See mini bio Level 11
Staff

 I choose life, everybody!
 I choose life, everybody!

I understand why people were so furious about this, now. Thoroughly. Utterly. Totally. 
 
While I certainly would never condone fans sending Gainax death threats and flooding message boards with vitriol over this, I can at least understand where they are coming from. If this were presented to me as the de factor “ending” of this amazing show that I’d been so wrapped up in for 25 episodes, I’d probably be spitting mad.  All that amazing character interactions, all those clues of am intricate conspiracy plot, all these heady secrets seeming to about to be unveiled, and then…   a group therapy session that resolves nothing aside Shinji “choosing life.”
 
I would’ve been FURIOUS.  

 

 Where do you factor in to all of this, Yui? WHERE?!!?
 Where do you factor in to all of this, Yui? WHERE?!!?

Luckily, I understood that END OF EVANGELION is the “real” ending while I watched this episode (and I’ll be checking that out soon enough.) I’m all for challenging endings, but this reminds me a lot Stephen King’s DARK TOWER series, which similarly gets a little “meta” to frustrate audiences at the end. King actually gave you a choice at the end of that book. You, as the reader, could choose either the “happy ending” and close the book with peace of mind, or you could continue on for ten more pages and experience the “real ending.”  If the relationship of this episode to END OF EVANGELION might be comparable, then I'm definitely plugging ahead to get real answers. Seriously, there are so many remaining questions...

What is human instrumentality? What does it actually entail for the world?

What caused the Second Impact? Hell, what actually happened in the Second Impact?

Just what was the deal with Kaworu? How was he supposed to be “just like” Rei? And, come on, is she clone of Yui or what?

What about all those mass-produced Evas? Weren’t they on their way out of the facotry?

Aaaaaaaaah! I need answers and they better be in END OF EVANGELION. Maybe they’re in the director’s cut episodes (look for my review of those tomorrow.)  Otherwise, this ending would be the biggest cop-up I’ve ever encountered. 
 
Wow... I think I'm officially a "mark" for Eva, now. HA HA...

-- Tom Pinchuk is the writer of UNIMAGINABLE for Arcana Studios and HYBRID BASTARDS! for Archaia. Pre-order the HYBRID BASTARDS! hardcover now on Amazon.com.

Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
 

I explained most of this in my comments on episode 25:   this obviously wasn’t the intended ending, they simply ran out of money, End of Eva is the real, always planned ending.  

And again:   fans went so nuts waiting FIVE years for End of Eva to come out, that many actually tried to rationalize and convince themselves that “this stands on its own” when it was clearly just thrown together.   Or, they’d watch incomprehensible Hong Kong fansubs.

Think of this as the dream sequences from End of Eva, cut out and shown on their own, out of context.

WATCH THE DIRECTOR’S CUT EPISODES BEFORE YOU WATCH END OF EVA. 

The new Director’s Cut scenes were even part of “Death & ReBirth” which was released before End of Eva (but you shouldn’t watch Death & Rebirth now, just the DC episodes; many of your questions are specifically answered in them)

What is human instrumentality? What does it actually entail for the world?

Remember Kaworu’s revelation to Shinji:

You've got your own AT Field?"

"Yes, at least that is what you lilum call this thing. This is the light of my soul, a sacred territory in which no one may intrude. Aren't you lilum even aware yet that your so-called AT Field is merely that wall that encloses *every* mind that exists?!?!"

Basically, Kaworu revealed that everyone, both Angels *and* humans, have an AT Field.   Angels just have AT Fields that are so strong they can affect physical objects.   An AT Field for humans is what gives your mind and body shape, it’s the psychic field that holds life-forms together.  

What caused the Second Impact? Hell, what actually happened in the Second Impact?

4 billion years ago, a race of God-like Progenitor Aliens known as the “First Ancestral Race” seeded life throughout the galaxy (a ripoff of 2001: A Space Odyssey).   They did this by creating creatures called “Seeds of Life” and shooting them through space where they’d land on a planet and start up an ecosystem.   Seeds come in two kinds:   “Fruit of Knowledge” Seeds (like Adam) give rise to sentient life forms like humans.   “Fruit of Life” Seeds (like Lilith) gave raise to Godzilla-like monsters with superpowers, like the Angels.  

Angels come from Adam, humans from from Lilith.  

Earth was actually supposed to be an Angel planet.   *Purely by accident*, however, Lilith crash landed onto Earth 4 billion years ago.   After Adam got here but before Adam started spreading Angel Eggs.   This collision was so violent that it kicked up debris into space, creating Earth’s Moon.   This collision was later termed “First Impact” (it was NOT the impact that killed the dinosaurs, it was much older).

Adam makes Angels by budding off Angel Eggs.   Lilith is…complicated.   Remember in episode 20 when they say that LCL is similar in composition to the “primordial ooze”? A mix of nucleotides, carbohydrates, molecular building blocks of life.   That’s because it is *literally* the primordial ooze.   Also recall that throughout the series, Shinji mentions that LCL “smells like blood” and then in episode 15 etc. when we see Lilith, we see that LCL is literally Lilith’s blood.   The way Lilith’s life-cycle works is that she lands on a planet, bleeds out primordial ooze, and simple single-celled life evolves from it.   Which eventually evolves into fish, reptiles, mammals, ultimately “homo sapiens”.   We are the Children of Lilith, that’s why Kaworu calls humans “Lilim”.  

Because Lilith-type Seeds have the Fruit of Knowledge (sentience), and Angels have the Fruit of Life (superpowers), the First Ancestral Race had one cardinal rule:   2 of the different kinds of Seeds were NEVER supposed to land on the same planet.   If they did, they might merge, and with these united abilities they would become a Living God, rivaling the power of their own creators (Fruit of Life + Fruit of Knoweldge = Godhood).   “The Forbidden Union of Adam and Lilith”.

Its misleading to call Lilith “the Second Angel”, because she’s not really an Angel, but a Seed of Life, co-equal to but different from Adam.  

The problem is that the English dub of End of Eva infamously mistranslated the few crucial lines where Misato briefly explains this.   The mistake renders it as “Adam comes from Lilith like we do” which is simply wrong (as if we didn’t have enough problems already).   Actually the correct translation was “Angels come from Adam, humans come from Lilith, another being like Adam”

Oh, there’s a point in End of Eva when Misato explains all this in about THREE sentences, and she says “Angels are humans that rejected human form” – that’s actually a VERY poetic way of summarizing it; they didn’t really “reject” it, but she needed to explain this very fast.

Fearing that the Seeds would accidentally unite, the First Ancestral Race did create two countermeasures:

1 – The Lances of Longinus.  

2 – the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Every Seed gets a Lance.   The Lances are an awesomely powerful artifact of First Ancestral Race technology, capable of instantly piercing even the strongest AT Field.   Their technology is so advanced they could even be said to be “alive” in a certain sense, and have wills of their own.   The idea is that if a Seed is ever doing something it shouldn’t, a Lance of Longinus will pierce into it; doing so sends the Seed into a “dormant state”.

Lilith crashed into Earth and wasn’t supposed to be there.   Her Lance SHOULD have turned her off…but it was destroyed in the collision.   We never see it.   Trying to make the best of a bad situation, Adam’s Lance “turned off” Adam rather than let 2 active Seeds exist on the same planet (the Director’s Cut episodes have a blink-or-you’ll miss montage moment when we see Adam as they found it in Antarctica; impaled on its own Lance).   So we Lilim usurped Earth from the Angels.   They’re from here.  

Realizing even the Lances might not work (and they didn’t with Lilith), the FAR sent along one other countermeasure;   a detailed instructional manual on Seeds of Life, Angels, and Lances.   Reading something along the lines of “Hello:   if you are reading this, you are a Lilith-based lifeform that has evolved to the point of sentience to the level that you were able to decipher this manual; congratulations.   Unfortunately, this also means that an Adam-type Seed has landed on your planet.   This is bad.   This is how Lances work, so you can turn Adam off.   Oh and by the way, please don’t abuse the knowledge in this manual to try to become a Living God…”

The “Dead Sea Scrolls” in the Eva-verse are actually a manual written by aliens.   They have no religious meaning.   Problem was that the Illuminati-like power cabal “Seele” eventually found the manual, deciphered it, and realized they could abuse its knowledge to become living gods.  

They searched long, and eventually found the Antarctic GeoFront, where Adam landed on Earth.   They also found Lilith’s GeoFront in Japan.   As I said, the GeoFronts are actually massive travelling vessels that the Seeds were contained in, its why they’re perfectly circular; they’re 4 billion years old, though, so they got covered over with layers of sediment.   They weren’t always underground.

In 2000, they send the Katsuragi Expedition to “study” Adam, but really their goal was to *intentionally start Second Impact*.   There’s an entire new scene directly showing this in the Director’s Cut.  

Seele realized that they couldn’t simply merge Adam with Lilith:   they’re too powerful, they couldn’t control it.   So they had to “reduce Adam to a controllable form” in Second Impact.   The exact details of the experiment are not clear, but it involved manipulating Adam using the Lance of Longinus.   This woke up Adam, briefly, but within minutes made him explode, leaving behind an embryonic Adam which was easily controllable.   Seele knew this would happen; they killed off half the human race in Second Impact as collateral damage to achieve their goals.

***the director’s cuts also change this;   you can see what Adam was doing.   Basically….Second Impact was on a local level what Third Impact is on a global level.   Adam can make an “Anti-AT Field” that strips AT Fields….

The only downside was that even though Adam was only awake for a few minutes, it was enough time to lay/produce the Angel eggs; which were spread across the world in the Second Impact explosion.  
Instrumentality doesn’t work if any Angels are still alive.   

“Human Instrumentality Project” basically aims to merge Adam and Lilith into a Living God, and then amplify the power of that living god using the Mass Production Evangelions to “resonate” a massive Anti-AT Field which will strip all AT Fields, MERGING all minds and organisms across the planet, creating a hyper-being in which all souls and minds are merged.   Inside this new state of being, its like the Matrix:   its impossible to feel pain, it’s a dreamworld.   But without pain, there is no joy.

Rei? And, come on, is she clone of Yui or what?

Rei is a clone of Yui Ikari’s body.   But you can’t clone a soul.   And Yui Ikari’s soul is bonded to Eva-01.

I will spell this out now because there’s a scene in the Director’s Cut where Kaworu flat out states this:  

“Rei Ayanami” is a vessel for the soul of Lilith.   To keep Lilith controllable they stripped its soul and implanted it in a blank human body….this may also aid in the final Adam/Lilith merger (you’ll see).  

“Rei Ayanami” is the soul of Lilith bonded into a clone of Yui Ikari’s body.

“Eva Unit-01” is the only Evangelion that was not a clone of Adam…but a clone of Lilith (that’s why it’s the “Test Type”).   And they bonded Yui Ikari’s soul to it; Evas are controlled by the pilot interfacing with the soul of his mother inside.   This is the hidden connection between Eva-01 and Rei, and why they always think its too dangerous to let Rei pilot Eva-01.   Its possibly also why Rei has crazy hallucinations inside of Eva-01 when they test her as a pilot in it in episode 14.

Rei’s entire character arc is realizing that she is not the sum of her parts:   she is NOT “Yui Ikari”, and she is NOT “Lilith”.   She’s this new person, “Rei”, created by her life experiences as a human schoolgirl.   All the little things build up.  

Just what was the deal with Kaworu? How was he supposed to be “just like”   Rei?

Just as Rei is a vessel for the soul of Lilith, Kaworu is a vessel for the soul of Adam.   He is both the first and final Angel.   He is also a clone, but of WHO was never revealed, and may indeed never have been meant to be a mystery at all (it could have just been a random person:   even *I* don’t know).   Yes, there’s a vat of Kaworu clones in one of the other Nerv bases.  

Kaworu is Seele’s version of what Rei is to Gendo and Nerv.   Nerv’s dummy plugs were based on Rei, Seele’s are going to be based on Kaworu.

Its not clear if Rei or Kaworu really “remember” being Lilith and Adam.   From Rei’s “introspection” in episode 26, we get the brief idea that flashes of Lilith hover in the background of Rei’s subconscious, but it never affects her actions or thoughts that much.  

Rei isn’t so much “a clone”, as she is “an alien”.   An alien soul implanted into a cloned human body.  

The Director’s Cut explain this.   The all-too-brief confrontation between Rei and Kaworu is expanded on.   He even says something to the effect of “so this is the form we’ve both taken now that we’re on this planet, eh?”

The difference, of course, is that Kaworu is already comfortable with who he is:   he knows he’s not Adam, he’s this new person.   Rei is sort of afraid to confront her Lilith-self because she fears she’ll stop being “Rei Ayanami”.   Kaworu is functionally what Rei is growing to be; not afraid that she’s just the sum of her parts.  

By the way:   a good way to find more to review and talk about in the Director’s Cuts is to comment on the voice actor changes:   the significant ones were Gendo, Aoba, Maya, and Kaworu.   Aoba and Maya were actually Vic Mignogna and Monica Rial, but they weren’t that great (then again, what do I expect of only 4 episodes that didn’t focus on those characters?).   Director’s Cut Gendo suffers from having only 4 episodes to grow into it, but he’s not too bad.

I seriously want you to devote time to reviewing Greg Ayres’ Director’s Cut Kaworu.   The man is obsessed with his role as DC Kaworu.  At all of his convention panels, he’ll even intro by saying “my favorite roles were Chrono and Kaworu!”

But Ayres was godawful as Kaworu.   He had no idea how to play the character.   He sounds like a youtube abridged video;   he sounds like his usual 8 year old voice to begin with, then he just hams up the whole thing, I mean really hammy, he just delivers EVERY line with a sexually suggestive undertone that was never there.   Oh he had fun playing it, but did it accurately meet what the role required?

but I digresss….

Just remember:   you were confused before by trying to fit every piece into one huge plan;   there are TWO, rival plans:   Seele’s plan and Gendo’s plan.  

Then of course, there’s the THIRD plan neither knew about:   Yui Ikari’s plan.  

Long story short, Yui Ikari figured out what Seele was trying to do, their master plan…and developed her own, COUNTER-plan, which the ENTIRE series has been following this entire time.   Eating the Angel’s S2 Organ in episode 19 was the climax of that; that was Yui’s “just as planned” moment.

By consuming an Angel’s S2 Organ, Eva-01 is now “complete” – it has no energy requirements anymore, it can function indefiniately and   independently.   This FORCES Seele to have to center Third Impact on Eva-01 because its just too powerful.  

The Mass Production Evas are needed, because you need A LOT of Evas to “resonate” with the Anti-AT Field coming from the Adam/Lilith Hybrid.

Gendo, meanwhile, just wants to get Yui back…by merging along with Rei into Adam and Lilith and then merging with Eva-01.  

Again:   everyone was working *for* the bad guys the whole time.

Yes, that’s one of my major strikes against the TV ending being the real ending:   they had put the plot thread in motion that “they’re making Mass Production Evas at the other Nerv bases now”

 
 What about all those mass-produced Evas? Weren’t they on their way out of the factory?
 

***the battle against the Mass Production Model Evangelions, Unit 05 through Unit 13 (there are nine of them) remains even 15 years later, one of the most legendary fights in all of anime.   THIS is what you were waiting for.

That’s why Seele wanted Dummy Plug technology:   the MP Evas use Dummy Plugs so they basically just have “autopilot” mode, they don’t need living pilots.

And ask yourself:   what usually stops an Eva fight?   When the Eva gets so badly damaged that they have to turn it off or the pilot would be killed from nerve damage.   Given that Mass Production Evas have no actual pilots, *they can fight until they’re hamburger*.   Cut off Eva-00’s arm, it sends Rei into shock, or immobilized Asuka.   Mass Production Evas can lose an arm, cut clean off, and it won’t even shrug.   It just keeps coming.   Think like the Deadites from Evil Dead.  

And did I mention that the MP Evas have their own S2 Organs, so they don’t need external power supply anymore but can function indefinitely?  (Eva-01 is “a living god” now because its based on *Lilith* and has an S2 Organ, merging Adam-tech with Lilith-tech; MP Evas are made from Adam, so no danger there).  

Or, that the Mass Production Evangelions *have wings and can fly?*

Or, that they’re completely eye-less (they presumably see using cameras on their bodies), with whale-shaped heads, big fleshy red lips, toothy grins, and salivate profusely?

The greatest Angel of all was forged by the hand of man!   The Mass Production Evangelions!

Post by buhssuht (223 posts) See mini bio Level 19
i remember my first time watching the ending. i was watching it by VHS, i was like "am i missing one more tape or did they F@#$ up the recording?"
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,723 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@Tom_Pinchuk:
EoE will answer some (or even most) of your questions, but the final "so what happened"? Will not completely be answered, there is definitely some room for interpretation and die hard fans have been picking at the meaning of the end of Evangelion (movie and series ending) for years. I will try to help explain this episode by commenting with a little analyse of it as I did with the previous episode, I hope that will help. But like you when I first finished the series, I felt incomplete and thought EoE would solve everything, but while it does answer a lot, a good part of it is still as metaphysical and trippy as the final two episodes.
Post by OmegaChosen (43 posts) See mini bio Level 6
I think we should all refrain from saying anything related to the endings and End of Evangelion until he watches EOE. Then everyone can start talking about "true" endings and interpretation and whatnot to their heart's content. This is a very delicate period and we can ruin what happens in EOE for him if we're not careful. Personally, if I was Tom, I wouldn't read anymore comments until EOE was watched, just in case someone lets something slip out by accident. EOE really should be seen spoiled-free, especially with an Evangelion-virgin such as Tom.
 
Also, Tom, if you're anything like me your rage for this episode should go away after seeing EOE. I actually quite like this episode.
Post by rocketbomber (226 posts) See mini bio Level 9
Yep. 
 
but I echo the comments of @ hitsusatsu11 above.  This series, alas, has no canon, definitive ending.  Welcome to the club, and I think you can stop calling yourself a noob -- unless that's the column 'hook' and title.
Post by Ryuku_Ryosake (58 posts) See mini bio Level 6
@rocketbomber:  There is a canon definitive ending and it's named End of Eva. It's even titled it. End of Eva might have some openness to it but that doesn't make it an ending. By I end of EoE I felt the story of kids piloting giant mecha against  giant monsters was definitely over. However more on that on the EoE post.
Post by FoxxFireArt (2,638 posts) See mini bio Level 25
Moderator
Now, my comment on your article about the Evangelion Unit-01 Car makes a lot more sense now. Where I said, "It would sort of give new meaning to that old TV show, 'My Mother the Car'."
 
Death threats are too much. Did you read the comments made on Babs' article interviewing Reginald Hudlin? I was astounded at just how angry people are against him. It's one thing to express your anger and disappointment, but you cross a serious line when you start advocating violence and murder. 
I'm of the school that a story should make you feel something. Either it's anger, happiness, or sadness. After I watched this episode. I felt like I wasted a lot of time. I kind of felt....nothing.

I can say, you are going to get more answers out of End of Evangelion. The DVD commentaries on the disc I watched were rather insightful. One of the biggest cop out I can think of is what they did with Tony Stark recently.
 
@ReVolutionOfEvangelion said:
" I will edit this post do not respond "
I'm going to respond. If only because of the absurdity of a comment saying you will comment later.
Post by kuromochi (9 posts) See mini bio Level 4
One of the biggest attractions toward discussing this series so long after it's original finale is the neverending questions that follow whenever someone else reaches this point. For this viewer, it has never truly been about completely understanding EVA from any kind of cohesively narrative standpoint, but rather how feelings arise from it. And your response, as yearning as it is now, may not be the most vindicated with EOE. This said, it is still exciting to witness the effect it has had on you, Tom. I can't completely & eloquently nail every reason why this show is so special to so many of us, but in it's incompleteness is something rare & valuable. And EOE delivers less in any sort of conclusive storytelling, but it does solidify much of the myth of EVA. And for a show more about it's mythical broken heart. Much closer to Cobain, than it is to Floyd, it is a beautiful failure. And for that I still adore Shin Seiki Evangelion.
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
@rocketbomber:   End of Evangelion *is* the canon, definitive ending. 
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
@FoxxFireArt:   1 - my response was 6 microsoft word pages long, it took some time
 
2 - ....the "Commentary of Doom" from the End of Eva DVD release is infamously one of the worst, least insightful DVD commentaries ever made, painfully revealing that these people had no idea what the heck they were talking about.
 
My website is even making a video documentary in the next few weeks, titled, "Taliesin Jaffe is not an Evangelion expert", citing outlandish or simply stupid things he says in the DVD commentary. 
 
 @kuromochi:   No.  Wrong.  The show *is* about the narrative and not your baseless, personalized interpretations.
 
Ever pause to think that this is why "no one understands the show?" -- because a lot WAS revealed in guidebooks, creator interviews, even as hints sprinkled throughout the show.
 
But instead of "sitting down and trying to rationally figure it out"....for FIFTEEN YEARS we resorted to "lets talk about how we personally interpreted it like ink blots"
 
That stops and it stops now.  *that*...is the "Revolution" of Evangelion.  
 
"Completely understanding Evangelion" was always possible.  Its just that the people "in charge" of providing those explanations (i.e. the terribly uninformative DVD commentary, the fan panelists at conventions)....were simply really, really bad at it. 
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,723 posts) See mini bio Level 20
Alright here it is the final episode "Take care of yourself" or "The beast that shouted love at the heart of the world" Say what you will about the incompleteness of these last two episodes but this episode does have merit in delving into the inner psyche's of characters and dealing with existentialism.    
 
This episode is more like a psyche or philosophy lecture, and could almost function as an auditory only episode, with the animation only serving to enhance the spoken words. (which we all know is a budget issue lol)
 
We begin by looking at the characters fear of disappearing because of their worthlessness. All humans here lack something deep within them which is only "filled and complimented" by becoming one through instrumentality. 
 
We then face questions of "why do I exist?" (and there is no answer for this one even in EoE lol) and  roundabout answers of "maybe i exist to find out why i exist." Then more questions of if it is right and essential to exist for yourself, and if being alive makes you happy. Shinji wants to escape reality because it is sad, but escaping this reality is also sad for him. Shinji is afraid of being alone and thus pilots Eva for an identity, as does Asuka. All three pilots believe they have no value aside from being Eva pilots. Shinji perceives no value in himself and therefore envisions everyone in existences hating him, the act of him perceiving himself as valueless causes others to not respect him, and now we have a vicious cycle on our hands. 
 
We learn through Shinji's dependence on 01 for identity not to define ourselves solely by any single aspect, career, school ect. For if we depend only on these things for an identity then we give ourselves no other value and bury the true self, but of course Shinji doesn't care. He didn't have any value to begin with, and he'll be damned if he'll lose the only thing that gives him value-his Eva ( though in his case there is a strange Freudian element to this as well) 
 
Then Shinji, Asuka and Rei give a nice little poem about rain and the beginning of new days, the unfamiliar and how scary it is, and oh yes how they hate it all. Questions of what they really want are asked, and answers of 'to be loved" or "not to be left alone" and "to be with people" are given, yet throughout the series they have done nothing but sabotage there chances at these things, sure through circumstance, but also predominantly by their own choices and actions. 
 
Insecurity is dealt with, wanting to be valuable enough to attract others, but this is to hard to achieve and causes pain, so instrumentality is a way out-to unify and fill the soul. But as much as Shinji hates his life and identity and fears rejection, he fears joining with everyone just as much. So now he must choose between to painful things, two things which of course (in typical Eva fashion) he hates. He realizes the Shinji that exists in his mind and everyone else's mind are not the true "myself" but symbolic representations of himself, and he has no idea who he is. He comes to the conclusion that he is the sum of his self awareness, but he of course doesn't understand himself. They make a point in saying no human can completely understand another human, but instrumentality can remedy this. 
 
Shinji then enters a world of complete freedom, but that world is not solid. Shinji can do anything he wishes in this world, but can't think of anything. He then gets a top and bottom to the world which helps orient him, but takes away a measure of his freedom. He is then told about having perception of himself through others, and the first among these others is his mother (solidifying the marriage of Freud and Eva lol). 
 
We then get an alternate slice of life world where Asuka and Shinji are childhood friends and Rei is the new girl at school, apart from inspiring the manga Angelic Days, this mostly recycled footage scene does little for me, except I guess to show Shinji how realities can change, and how having personal worth drives events forward. Rei also owns Asuka with a one liner in school which was pretty funny. 
 
Anyway after viewing this lighthearted alternate reality Shinji has an epiphany and becomes less gloomy. He learns truth is about perspective, and that a humans truth is simple. Shinji's truth is that he must deal with his fear of being hated. Shinji still hates himself but realizes maybe he can have self worth and one day love himself. Its not that much progress, but hey its all we could expect from Ikari all things considered. This revelation serves as his basis for rejecting and shattering instrumentality. 
 
The final scenes show Shinji wanting to live his own life even though it brings him pain, and reject the cop out of instrumentality. How does he have the power to reject instrumentality you ask? Don't worry this is something EoE defiantly answers. Finally all the characters clap for Shinji and give congratulations, and i find myself clapping along and shouting "Bravo!" at Gainax and Anno for creating the masterpiece that is Neon Genesis Evangelion.
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
@hitsusatsu11:   unfortunately, we can't just skip the final 2 TV episodes entirely:  things about characters inner motivations, which affects their actions in End of Eva....well we only learn a lot of those things in these episodes.  They truly seem to be "the dream sequence scenes from End of Eva, expanded into full episodes"
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,723 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@ReVolutionOfEvangelion: So Yuy's plan was to have an Eva bonded with a human soul last forever, even after the sun moon and earth were gone, as she said in the flashback episode right? But there is also hints that she to wanted/thought that the bonding of all people through instrumentality would be a good thing, as she says she wants to make the world a better place for her son. 
 
And about the Great Progenitor Race, I always thought of them as a literal God/creator like race, not as merely highly advanced aliens. (The best comparison I can come up with on the fly is that there closer to Celestials from marvel than say Vulcans or other highly evolved aliens) And thus the religious symbolism is valid because these beings would be nigh omnipotent, the first race and creators of all life in the universe. I mean they can not only seed organisms such as humans, but also incomprehensible beings such as the angels. I mean the angel Leliel who utilized a sea of dirac is almost in himself  somewhat of a being with "intra dimensional" powers. I believe that when the forbidden fusion of Adam-Lillith (life and knowledge) occur the new "God" truly becomes a near omnipotent being, something beyond planetary, as i also believe they say somewhere in 25 that in instrumentality their "existence will spread out infinitely" or something to that effect.  
 
And yes Greg Ayers is terrible, him claiming hes good as Kawaru at conventions is just as laughable as Chris Sabat taking the credit for  the "over 9000!" meme. 
 
And ya id be pissed if it were just 25/26 and no end of eva, but im glad I can watch them both, one after the other to get a full picture. 
Post by Gozertc (106 posts) See mini bio Level 7
Just to toss in an extra bit, imagine if you're watching this all tape by tape.  Or even worse week by week.  How horrible is it to know that the show ends THERE.  That's it.  All she wrote?  Hell for us in America who this was our first "serious anime" (i.e. me and my buds) how devastating is for you to get the new tape, pop it in and see 25 and 26 (I do believe it was just those two episodes on the last tape) and go, "WTF?!?!"  Then you go online and find out that yes, that IS the end.   
 
Yeah.  We were rightly pissed and jaded.  Luckily other shows were coming over to make us forget, or at least forgive Japan and move on.  But those of us in the tape era probably will never fully forgive GANIX and the Eva team for this affront to Storytelling that was the original ending to Eva.   
Post by Ryuku_Ryosake (58 posts) See mini bio Level 6
@hitsusatsu11:  Yui wants to make the world a better place for her son. However what is a better way to do that then to allow your child to choose for himself. If she didn't give him that choice then he would be forced to live in the world of Seele's or Gendo's choosing.
 
I just rule out the religous symbolism for that fact that is a godlike race not a single God. All the religious symbolism comes from monotheistic roots. It pretty much contradicts all the symbolism stands for. I however question how all powerful the Progenitor Race is. They seem to be directly opposed to the creation of an all powerful "God" and even show the inability to be able to stop one from being born. Intelligent beings have the power to create something greater than themselves so the fact that they have a means to create a god doesn't they have to be one. This whole series follows that logic.
Post by mediaright (75 posts) See mini bio Level 5
  Tom, here's Shinji's own take on the end of the series (from the man Spike himself, literally after recording the final scene).
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,723 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@Ryuku_Ryosake: So Yuy wanted to make Shinji choose about instrumentality right? But then what about in her dialog with fuyutsuki that she wanted Eva to last forever with a human soul bonded to it, a lonely existence but eternal proof of mankind. (and then they showed 01 floating in space with the Lance)
 
Also the GPR in my mind at least cannot be simply highly evolved aliens, even some of the angels surpass typical highly advanced aliens. They were the first beings and created all life in the universe, close to Godhood in my books. The religious symbolism is valid because its natural for beings such as these to be worshiped. If your familiar with Lovecraft I would make the comparison that the GPR are like the Great Old Ones (what cthulu is), and Seele are like the cult who worship them in a way. (Think on how man would view any beings from the stars as God.) Its not a great comparison, another one would be from Marvel, the GPR would be similar to the Celestials, and the Adam-Lilith fusion would be like Eternity, again not  such a great comparison as the celestials in no way create eternity lol.  
 
Anyway the exact function/nature of the GPR is never explicitly and fully revealed, perhaps rebuild will answer this better. 
Post by No_name_here (854 posts) See mini bio Level 11
Staff
@mediaright: HA HA HA!!! Holy shit... that's hysterical! Where's that from?
Post by No_name_here (854 posts) See mini bio Level 11
Staff
@FoxxFireArt: Ahhhhh... I get it out, now. HA! It's kind of like that bit in STAR TREK: GENERATIONS where Data finally gets a joke five years after Jordie said it.
 
Of course I don't advocate death threats. I'm just saying that since I, myself, was frustrated by this ending, I can understand (not sympathize with) why obsessive fans with loose grips on reality would make threats to Gainax over this.  I haven't seen Babs' interview, but I can easily imagine how volatile the talkback probably got.
 
I don't know if I felt ambivalent about this episode, so much as I was rolling my eyes. My roommate was walking by while I was watching the end where Shinji keeps saying "I want to be love! I don't want to be hated!" and he said, "This is ridiculous." I couldn't argue with him. I get how this brings closure to the characters, but I think it could've been done a lot more concisely.
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