What the F@#$ Did I Just Watch?! EVANGELION Episode #15

Topic started by No_name_here on April 30, 2010. Last post by Whiskeyjack 4 years, 11 months ago.
Post by No_name_here (871 posts) See mini bio Level 11

 Even giant robot pilots have to go the friend's wedding receptions sometimes, too.
 Even giant robot pilots have to go the friend's wedding receptions sometimes, too.

“Afraid to kiss me on the anniversary of your mother’s death, hm? Afraid she’ll come down from heaven and scold you?”

This was the episode for black comedy, because that line from Asuka had to be one of the funniest, most bizarre lines I’ve heard in this series so far. Again, I love how the Gainax has explored all this heady psychological territory while still being comfortable enough to goof on it. The other line that made me laugh on similar grounds came when Misato’s doing her whole drunken breakdown with Kaji on the way home - - how she’s a failure, how she’s bad person, and so on - - and she finishes her whole list of deplorable traits by saying she’s almost as pathetic as Shinji! HA HA HA… now, THAT’S how you put a pity party in perspective! There’s always somebody who’s a bigger loser than you.

Another thing I appreciate about this show is that Gainax is willing to take little grounded, real world digressions (and, more importantly, make them interesting). It may sound odd, but actually having an episode mostly about Misato going to a friend’s wedding and worrying about becoming a spinster actually adds a lot of gravity to the giant robo stuff.  However, I do have to say I’m confused sometimes over how stable the rest of the world is supposed to be. The Second Impact melted the ice-caps and submerged cities, right? Yet life seems to be going on like it normally does, barring the occasional angel attack. People are still having weddings with karaoke - - which everybody knows, is the true measure of excesses for a comfortable society.

It’s a testament to Gainax’s storytelling skills that there were able to pack this much into an episode. You get Shinji’s cold, awkward reunion with his father. The subsequent kissing game with Asuka (and she is SUCH a tease, isn’t she? Just leaving a date to wait in line at the rollercoaster? Horrible). And then the whole thing ends with one hell of a series of surprises. Kaji’s a double-agent? NERV has imprisoned the first angel? THE EVAS ARE ENGINEERED FROM THE FIRST ANGEL?!!? My mind was about to explode over the 60 seconds worth of surprises at the end.

And once again, I’m not buying that the religious symbolism is accidental. The first angel is named Adam, he’s got seven eyes and he’s crucified by NERV? Yeah… totally arbitrary.

-- Tom Pinchuk is the writer of UNIMAGINABLE for Arcana Comics and HYBRID BASTARDS! for Archaia. Pre-order the HYBRID BASTARDS! hardcover now on Amazon.com.

Post by FoxxFireArt (2,654 posts) See mini bio Level 25
Evangelion - Shinji's Ordeal
Evangelion - Shinji's Ordeal
Speaking to the religious symbolism. Ever notice how all the explosions the Angels cause are shaped like crosses?
When I first watched the series, I really felt that Kaji was probably one of the only emotionally stable people in this entire cast. If you read the manga, which follows with the anime pretty strictly. ( Volume 7 if you are ever interested.) We learn Kaji's back story. It's pretty effed up.
If you ever take the chance to watch the "End of Evangelion" movie, after you are done with the TV series; and listen to the audio commentary. They really dig into the symbolism of the series.
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@FoxxFireArt: Good points, although i would say the manga doesnt not follow the anime, they are more like different continuities.  
@Tom_Pinchuk: Remember when you were asking about how does the Japanese government respond to nerv using all japans power to fire their rifle, and i responded saying they are very interested in Nerv's dealings and this involves kaji, well now you have it kaji is a double agent working for japan's interior ministry.  But Gendo and Nerv actually don't mind this........
Post by cfatalis (19,150 posts) See mini bio Level 15
@hitsusatsu11: yes it does follow the anime , at least in general details be damned 
no,no that is lilith
adam is within nerv but somewhere different
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@cfatalis: no, yoshiyuki sadamoto's (who does character designs for the anime) eva manga is completely different than hideki Anno's anime, they follow same principle outline but are far to different with whole parts of the story and are considered different continuities. 
The first part of the manga follows the anime fairly well because its purpose was to promote the anime (technically the manga was released before the anime, though the anime over the manga is canon) but in mid to later parts much is different. (storyline with kawaru, Asuka ect.) The manga is still ongoing btw, though sadamoto is busy with rebuild at the moment. 
Post by Ryuku_Ryosake (58 posts) See mini bio Level 6
If you really want your mind blown. Eva means Eve in just about every other language outside of English. So it's been Adam and Eve this whole time. Also the society in Eva has been mostly rebuilt after the Second Impact so thing aren't that bad at least in Japan. Especially in Tokyo-2/3 which has been built on UN dime for the Eva operations. So what you see in Eva is one of the highest points of society in the world at the moment. It's like judging how bad Katrina was by looking at how New York was doing after it. 
One thing you must remember about the series is Seele is one naming everything after religious symbolism and staging the "Angel Adam" in the "crucifixion fashion" and stabbing it with and object they named "The Lance of Longinus". So basically most of the religious symbolism isn't directly inherent of the nature of the "Angels" but by a religious cult that wants things to be that way.
Post by agila61 (87 posts) See mini bio Level 4
You've got the debate on the meaning of the religious symbolism turned around. Its not that its entirely arbitrary, its that its a pastiche, a collage, a bunch of stuff cherry picked because it looked cool or sounded cool, not because there is some grand overarching meaning to it all.

Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@Ryuku_Ryosake: it is lilith who is crucified with seele's "seven eyes of yaweh" mask in terminal dogma, adam is in embryonic form. 
About the religious symbolism it definitely has meaning, the nature of the angels themselves and the so called "great progenitor race" are all interconnected. Gainax did not just put it there to look cool, Anno may have answered questions regarding it saying he just put it in cause he felt like it, but thats just his vague personality. See when Anno is answering questions about the meaning of eva he is always somewhat vague,- he won't reveal Gendo's final line to Ritsuko, when asked questions about Rei he simply answers "i haven't really thought about it", its just his nature, but the intent in eva is to have meaning, perhaps open ended meaning, but meaning none the less. 


 I recommend watching this Anno documentary in which he interacts with school children. 

Post by Ryuku_Ryosake (58 posts) See mini bio Level 6
@hitsusatsu11:  Yes I know it is Lilith but at the point of the story he is in that's a spoiler. Also in regards Adam and Eva the connection stills stays for all but one. That's why I didn't feel the need to spoil it for him.  Also I never said it didn't have any meaning at all. I'm just saying in the context of the story much of the religious symbolism is imposed by the beliefs of Seele. Seele wants to believe the giant  monsters attacking the world are" messengers of god" directly sent to them. So they are called angels. That gives the religious symbolism a purpose and meaning in the story but not necessarily religious meaning. Just because my toast burnt in a cross pattern doesn't mean it's an item of religious importance it's more a reflection of myself or in the case of Eva the characters not the plot.
Post by FoxxFireArt (2,654 posts) See mini bio Level 25
No, I have most of the mangas. The differences are pretty minor. There was just a character that lived in the anime, but died in the manga version. This person wasn't very important anyways. Also the introduction of Asuka is different.
The basic plot and major events are still the same.
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
@hitsusatsu11: "
nno may have answered questions regarding it saying he just put it in cause he felt like it, but thats just his vague personality. S
No.  Wrong.  "I don't like what the creator said, so I'm going to insist he was lying"?  Yikes.
The religious symbols are at best,  a pastiche:
The *only* meaning, the only shallow name association they ever made, was that "The Evangelions were cloned from the first Angel, Adam" (seen in episode 8 )........Evangelion = Eva.  Eva means Eve in most European languages.  Eve was made from Adam.  
that's it, that's the ONLY significant religious name they came up with; no more than how in "Bioshock", Eve is refined from Adam.  
Kaji is a triple agent:  Gendo thinks he's a double agent who is supposed to be spying on Gendo for Seele, but is really working for Gendo.  Both Gendo and Seele are wrong:  he's actually working for the Japanese government, and spying on both Seele and Nerv.
As I said a few episodes ago, our website has a video on "the state of the world after Second Impact" -- you should watch it.
The idea is that the  "First World" countries like Japan, the USA, Germany, have rebuild, and many people died, but ***and why didn't you pick up on this? *** similar to Akira, "reconstruction is over by this point" -- as Anno stated, "convenience stores even have fully stocked shelves now"
But they only rebuild physically, not psychologically.
Once again sir:  Gainax said that they put in the religious symbols as a gimmick, to differentiate them from other giant robot shows.  They don't mean anything.
And think about it:  if you're going to make "a gimmick", is it going to be big or small?
The argument seems perennially, "but the religious symbols are used *so* prominently!"...as opposed to what?  "wow, those religious references were hidden in as subtext you wouldn't get until later viewing?"
"Gimmicks" are NEVER "hidden subtext" - the whole point of a gimmick is to be used prominently, in order to grab people's attention.
Again:  the ONLY reference that means ANYTHING is the Adam/Eva nameplay.
Seriously, and I want an answer on this:  if the "religious symbols actually mean something"....WHAT? What could they mean?  After 15 years, NO ONE came up with a coherent answer, and all the while, the Gainax guys kept insisting that it didn't mean anything.
So Gainax said "yes we know it was used prominently, but it meant nothing"....while some fans scrambled for 15 years to find meaning to the symbols...but they found none, because it wasn't there!
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
@hitsusatsu11:  No.  While the meaning of Evangelion was certainly broad, it was by no means "open to interpretation", nor "open ended".  There were actual answers to all of this, just in the guidebooks, hinted at, and in interviews.  It all makes sense and it isn't even that complicated of a show....so long as we stop fixating on the religious symbols, which the creators have acknowledged to be meaningless.
Otherwise, it was a psychological analysis in the midst of a social commentary.  Religion had nothing to do with it.
Post by OmegaChosen (43 posts) See mini bio Level 6
@ReV: You're taking this show a little too seriously. Who cares if the religious symbols have no direct influence-or as you continue to point out, meaning-on the show? They're there and people are going to comment on them. Even if it's coincidence, there are interesting parallels in the show to judeo-christian scripture, however unintentional. Let people have their fun, it's not hurting anybody else's enjoyment.
In any case, I'm gonna stop commenting :/. People always get too into discussions of the show when it comes to Evangelion. I'll still read your posts, Tom, though. I always like reading what new fans think of the show. :)
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
 First off my impressions of this episode are good, this is an episode which explores the human side of Eva. Clearly here we get to see what makes Misato tick, as well as we delve deeper within Asuka, and really see what kind of person she is. The mention of shinji's mother here is no accident either, there will be more textbook Freud and Yung to come.
 well i respectfully disagree, i have always believed and thought the wide consensus was that the anime and manga are different continuities.  
@ReVolutionOfEvangelion: Well i would have to disagree, the religious aspects are important. For example religious symbols and beliefs are important to Misato and come out in her dialog. 
The meaning of Eva is quite open to interpretation, no two ppl will ever agree on what exactly happens during and after instrumentality, there are still many open ended questions. 
Anno himself clearly is vague and mysterious when talking of the meaning of Eva, if he weren't than why would he silence out Gendo's final words to ritsuko? This is just one example.  Other questions include the nature of Rei and her fate after 3rd impact? How come she can keep doing her re-appearing thing? Even the nature of the Angels themselves is never actually explained, one must look at guide books that tell of the great progenitor race and the origins of the black moon, and even this is open to interpretation. 
Being vague when asked questions is an old mangaka and animators trick, (hell even tomino replayed to questions of why char's sister wasnt in CCA by saying "hmm i don't recall") see interviews where Anno answers questions about Rei and others vaguely, and instead presents more questions himself than answers. Ive taken the time to look at various Anno commentary and i can see his nature. 
Eva is brilliant because it integrates religious symbols into a sci-fi organic mecha context (as if challenging or re examining religious notions)  then makes it real by using very human characters, who are all physco analyzed under a proverbial microscope.  
Religious symbolism is as much a part of Eva as Freud and mind rape set to classical music.
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@Ryuku_Ryosake said:
" @hitsusatsu11:  Yes I know it is Lilith but at the point of the story he is in that's a spoiler. 
Ok sorry lol but the post previous to mine already pointed that out so i thought it would be no harm in clarifying, but i personally hate spoilers, i still haven't spoiled 2.0 and am waiting for the dvd release.
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
@OmegaChosen:  "oh haha well we're having fun so please don't correct us" is the attitude that turned Evangelion into "that show no one understands...but lets make porn fanfic out of it anyway"
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
@hitsusatsu11:  "
The meaning of Eva is quite open to interpretation, no two ppl will ever agree on what exactly happens during and after instrumentality, there are still many open ended questions.
No, Eva is not open to THAT much interpretation:  the reason "few people agree on what the Instrumentality scene and the ending mean"...is because "the people in charge" did an awful job of explaining it.
The stated goal of "the ReVolution of Evangelion", our fansite, our panels, our writings, is to "explain Eva", because at the moment, EVERYONE's theories are correct....which mean that none are.
No, as someone else stated above:  Anno didn't tell us direct answers because he wanted us to figure it out on our own; he didn't want to walk us through by the hand.  There's a difference between "refusal to tell us the answers" and "there are no answers at all"
Post by Whiskeyjack (111 posts) See mini bio Level 19
Given the ambiguous nature of the show, and multiple official versions of how the series turns out (TV, Director's Cut, D&R/EoE, Rebuild, manga etc etc) .. coming to one single truth seems to be a foolish endeavor.  Is it such a bad thing to believe that Anno meant not only for the audience to figure things out on our own, but to come up with our own personal truths? Sometimes I think Anno gets too much credit for being clever and perhaps was just balls-out crazy and lucked out. Other times I think he's just crazy, but in a mad genius sort of way.
Just wait.. Evangelion 4.0 will end with a slow zoom outward to reveal Tokyo-3 in a snow globe. Just wait. You'll see!
Post by Gregomasta (11 posts) See mini bio Level 5
@ReVolutionOfEvangelion:  Right on!
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
@Whiskeyjack:   "  Is it a crime to try and learn the truth? Is it a sin to search for those things which you fear. My purpose in this world is knowledge, and the dissemination of it. 
Humans who lose the ability to think become creatures whose existence has no value. Wake up! Don't be afraid of knowledge! Think, you humans who are split into two worlds, unless you want the gulf between humans to expand into oblivion, you must think!   No one here is even interested in learning the truth - a truth that must be known. But I want to know! I want to learn what must be known! "

Are you...being *sarcastic*?!  They didn't make "alternate versions" at the time as a stylistic choice, but because they ran completely out of money!  They had to make End of Eva because it was the real ending, and the Director's Cuts are what the final episodes should have been;  utterly superseding all earlier versions.  As for the fact that there are alternate Manga version sor the REbuild movies......you seriously take the fact that there is a manga adaptation as proof that the original series was supposed to be "utterly interpretable"?
" It chooses one who uses the power of God created by man, one who is able to arrive at one truth! That's not the case with you! "
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