Theism vs Atheism

Topic started by Mortein on Feb. 7, 2011. Last post by Bigheart711 1 year, 10 months ago.
Post by Guyver (3,406 posts) See mini bio Level 14
@mrassh0le said:


Dark energy was adopted by scientist based on data and calculating of the universe's growth.It wasn't create by some mean spirited man simply cause he couldn't  it was accepted as the most likely hypothesis by even Steven Hawking.God on the other hand was as you said adopted because of the unabilty man faced had to account for natural phenomenons and to destroy the fear of death.So far dark energy seems more likely.


As for God being observed t,I am going to respectfully disagree ,all religions claim to have had poeples meeting with God and none of those instances were documented. 
I don't belive in God because it is a logical paradox. 
God is omnipotent,omnibenevolent,omnipresent, and omniscient  
This would make him perfect 
Human bodies are imperfect 
A perfect thing creating imperfect things is a logical paradox 
Therefore God doesn't exist 

 
Before you say God is beyond our human understating/logic well i would like to point out that this would make God unfalsifiable an unfalsifiable premise is also unprovable.If something is unprovable well it isn,t to be belived.

"
I'm having trouble understanding how creating flawed creations means that God doesn't exist lol. Please, explain.
Post by MrASSH0LE (2,328 posts) See mini bio Level 12
@Guyver said:
" @mrassh0le said:


Dark energy was adopted by scientist based on data and calculating of the universe's growth.It wasn't create by some mean spirited man simply cause he couldn't  it was accepted as the most likely hypothesis by even Steven Hawking.God on the other hand was as you said adopted because of the unabilty man faced had to account for natural phenomenons and to destroy the fear of death.So far dark energy seems more likely.


As for God being observed t,I am going to respectfully disagree ,all religions claim to have had poeples meeting with God and none of those instances were documented. 
I don't belive in God because it is a logical paradox. 
God is omnipotent,omnibenevolent,omnipresent, and omniscient  
This would make him perfect 
Human bodies are imperfect 
A perfect thing creating imperfect things is a logical paradox 
Therefore God doesn't exist 

 
Before you say God is beyond our human understating/logic well i would like to point out that this would make God unfalsifiable an unfalsifiable premise is also unprovable.If something is unprovable well it isn,t to be belived.

"
I'm having trouble understanding how creating flawed creations means that God doesn't exist lol. Please, explain. "

It is a logical paradox
Post by Newdeath (18,555 posts) See mini bio Level 19
@SilverGalford: Atheism is not intended to help the world so its useless comparing it how religion has helped the world. But I'm not mistaken, religion is the cause of some terrorist incidents as well isn't it? Not to mention that atheist countries generally have lower crime rates than non-atheist countries. I'm just saying.  
 
Personally I don't believe in God, I find his existence ridiculously paradoxical, implausible, unproven. But its not like I believe purely in science, I believe things can be explained with science but I also believe that science cannot absolutely explain human psychology and such, I believe metaphysics is more reliable when one wishes to understand things like humanity. Take into consideration that gods were created as a way to explain phenomenon that people could not explain back then due to the lack of required science, and gods were also created by man to eliminate the fear of death. I myself was raised Catholic but I am not religious at all.  
 
Its not like all atheists hate God etc. it is simply incredibly annoying when somebody insists on preaching to you and trying to convert you, that is annoying. I respect all religions, and I'll let people believe what they want as long as they do the same for me, if you're not preaching to me or trying to convert me then I'm not trying to tell you that God doesn't exist. Its as simple as that. You really can't force your belief on to others simply because you think you are absolutely correct.   
 
It is quite annoying when a person says you can't see the truth or you're insane or whatever when you tell them that you do not believe in God. Not to seem rude but what sounds more insane? Believing in something that you cannot see, touch, smell, hear and that cannot be absolutely proven to exist or not believing in something because there is no solid evidence of its existence. Sure you can say that many people have had so called encounters with God or Christ or Mary, but that doesn't really prove much does it? The same thing could be said for centaurs, they are fantasy creatures of myth that are not believed to exist because there is no evidence and yet didn't some Ancient Greeks claim to have had encounters with them? That's mostly my way of defending my disbelief in God. I could ramble on a lot more and bring up paradoxes and such but that would be going too far. That's my defense. Besides, it isn't like it is a competition or something. Just let people believe what they want.
 
ND
Post by UsachanMaN (4,514 posts) See mini bio Level 15

I’m a monotheist, so I only believe in one God (i.e, No one came before Him, no one will come after Him, “He begets not, nor was He begotten, And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him.”(Quran, Chapter 112, verses 3-4) And that throughout time, Holy books and revelations have been revealed to Prophets to help guide people.

From the way I see it, you don’t have to encounter God through your senses. I admit believing in Him would be a whole lot easier for people if they could see Him, hear Him, etc; but then again, that’s what faith is all about. I like thinking of it in a ‘test-like’ analogy. Seeing the answer will obviously give us the ability to formulate answers to the test right? Then what’s the point of writing it if we already know the answers?

So continuing on with the ‘test-like’ analogy, the only way to fairly write a test is through teachings and study guides (Holy books and teachings). That way, we’d get a sense of what we’re being tested on and hence answer it through what we attained through the given knowledge.    

   As for why I believe in God’s existence, well, the signs are all around us. The universe with all its detail and benevolence; Earth’s perfect distance from the sun to allow life to flourish; the complexity of the cell;    ( I can go on and on..) I have troubles believing  that this was all done by fluke. One might say that its through the Big Bang, and then through evolution that humans were able to reach such complexity. But I cant help but think, What started the Big Bang? A rotating cloud of interstellar gases and dust has to have come from somewhere. Something can’t start from nothing. There has to be someOne that designed all of this. That’s the predominant reason why I personally believe in God.

@Newdeath said: 

" But I'm not mistaken, religion is the cause of some terrorist incidents as well isn't it? . "

Unfortunately, that statement does hold some truth to it, but I’d like to point out that those actions are made by people who want to justify their own actions by falsely quoting exerts of religious passages without fully interpreting and understanding the full context of the passage/verses/teachings.

Post by Newdeath (18,555 posts) See mini bio Level 19
@UsachanMaN: True but religion is the root of the cause nonetheless. Also regarding your statements about the Big Bang, I like to believe that the Big Bang was the destruction of a previous universe which was the beginning of ours. Kind of like an infinite cycle of rebirth. Well yeah the Earth is perfectly distanced from the Sun but so are other planets with their own stars, things do happen by chance, its not impossible, far from it actually.  
 
ND
Post by Adanadhel (124 posts) See mini bio Level 16
Well, I'm an atheist, but most of time I keep that to myself. Unless someone directly asks me I don't go on bragging about that I don't believe in God. Personally, I don't believe in God or religions cuz for me it's too damn clear they were created by humans for humans. Plus, I think it's a lot more important believing in yourself and those dear to you than in some God. Here in Brazil, the religious people are a lot more annoying than the atheists. Just by having long hair and wearing bands shirts and passing in front of a church is already enough to listen to all kind of crap. I have no problems coexisting with religious people, as long as they keep quiet as I do. My father is catholic, my mother and grandmother are kardecists, my ex-girlfriend and her family were evangelicals, the key point is respecting others' beliefs. I'm not worried about what others believe as long as I'm confident about what I believe.
Post by Guyver (3,406 posts) See mini bio Level 14
@mrassh0le said:
" @Guyver said:
" @mrassh0le said:


Dark energy was adopted by scientist based on data and calculating of the universe's growth.It wasn't create by some mean spirited man simply cause he couldn't  it was accepted as the most likely hypothesis by even Steven Hawking.God on the other hand was as you said adopted because of the unabilty man faced had to account for natural phenomenons and to destroy the fear of death.So far dark energy seems more likely.


As for God being observed t,I am going to respectfully disagree ,all religions claim to have had poeples meeting with God and none of those instances were documented. 
I don't belive in God because it is a logical paradox. 
God is omnipotent,omnibenevolent,omnipresent, and omniscient  
This would make him perfect 
Human bodies are imperfect 
A perfect thing creating imperfect things is a logical paradox 
Therefore God doesn't exist 

 
Before you say God is beyond our human understating/logic well i would like to point out that this would make God unfalsifiable an unfalsifiable premise is also unprovable.If something is unprovable well it isn,t to be belived.

"
I'm having trouble understanding how creating flawed creations means that God doesn't exist lol. Please, explain. "
It is a logical paradox "
Sounds very illogical to me.
Post by MrASSH0LE (2,328 posts) See mini bio Level 12
@Guyver said:
" @mrassh0le said:
" @Guyver said:
" @mrassh0le said:


Dark energy was adopted by scientist based on data and calculating of the universe's growth.It wasn't create by some mean spirited man simply cause he couldn't  it was accepted as the most likely hypothesis by even Steven Hawking.God on the other hand was as you said adopted because of the unabilty man faced had to account for natural phenomenons and to destroy the fear of death.So far dark energy seems more likely.


As for God being observed t,I am going to respectfully disagree ,all religions claim to have had poeples meeting with God and none of those instances were documented. 
I don't belive in God because it is a logical paradox. 
God is omnipotent,omnibenevolent,omnipresent, and omniscient  
This would make him perfect 
Human bodies are imperfect 
A perfect thing creating imperfect things is a logical paradox 
Therefore God doesn't exist 

 
Before you say God is beyond our human understating/logic well i would like to point out that this would make God unfalsifiable an unfalsifiable premise is also unprovable.If something is unprovable well it isn,t to be belived.

"
I'm having trouble understanding how creating flawed creations means that God doesn't exist lol. Please, explain. "
It is a logical paradox "
Sounds very illogical to me. "

Ah *facepalm* 
God is omnipotent omnibenevolent and omnipotent 
He is both willing and capable of creating humans with perfect bodies based on those two ideas  
Us having imperfect bodies proves that God isn't real 
As a perfect God (a god with all the attributes I named) would not create imperfect humans 
Him having those attributes yet us not having perfect bodies is a paradox therefore God does not exist.
Post by MrASSH0LE (2,328 posts) See mini bio Level 12
@Newdeath:
What I find so stupid about relgion is that they always go on about atheist hating relgion,so what if they do ? 
Religions has made no secrets of its feeling towards non-belivers,christianity even says that if you are one you go to hell. 
Christians and muslims make all kinds of shit about why the world is becoming more atheistic  and say that we have some agenda to eventually kill em all when we "take over"
example:Illuminati,science conspiracy,Obama being the anti-christ etc. 

But as soon as you diss religion they say we are servants close-minded assholes(pun intended)
Post by Guyver (3,406 posts) See mini bio Level 14
@Newdeath said:

" @SilverGalford:  But I'm not mistaken, religion is the cause of some terrorist incidents as well isn't it?

A lot of these cases are purely preplanned, with 9/11 being the biggest of them all. It's sad some people haven't figured it out yet, and people continue to fall for these silly terrorist plots, without doing heavy research. I could post evidence of Uncle Israel and Uncle Sam training these so-called "terrorist groups."   
None of this is a surprise to the Muslim community. It's already been foretold that there would be a time when the religion would be cornered by the entire world and would face great opposition. 
By the way, the last big wars claimed an atrocious number of lives, and these were secular wars and secular countries.   

@UsachanMaN

said:
"

I’m a monotheist, so I only believe in one God (i.e, No one came before Him, no one will come after Him, “He begets not, nor was He begotten, And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him.”(Quran, Chapter 112, verses 3-4) And that throughout time, Holy books and revelations have been revealed to Prophets to help guide people.

From the way I see it, you don’t have to encounter God through your senses. I admit believing in Him would be a whole lot easier for people if they could see Him, hear Him, etc; but then again, that’s what faith is all about. I like thinking of it in a ‘test-like’ analogy. Seeing the answer will obviously give us the ability to formulate answers to the test right? Then what’s the point of writing it if we already know the answers?

So continuing on with the ‘test-like’ analogy, the only way to fairly write a test is through teachings and study guides (Holy books and teachings). That way, we’d get a sense of what we’re being tested on and hence answer it through what we attained through the given knowledge.    

   As for why I believe in God’s existence, well, the signs are all around us. The universe with all its detail and benevolence; Earth’s perfect distance from the sun to allow life to flourish; the complexity of the cell;    ( I can go on and on..) I have troubles believing  that this was all done by fluke. One might say that its through the Big Bang, and then through evolution that humans were able to reach such complexity. But I cant help but think, What started the Big Bang? A rotating cloud of interstellar gases and dust has to have come from somewhere. Something can’t start from nothing. There has to be someOne that designed all of this. That’s the predominant reason why I personally believe in God.


I strongly agree with this. I mean, the Quran itself is a miracle.
Until I get solid evidence(which will never happen)--not some THEORY-- that a creator of all things doesn't exist, I'm not going to exclude the existence of a creator. I can play 100 questions with myself and combine all of the theories in the world like I used to do, and I will still never be able to prove God doesn't exist. In the end, the result will always be the same. We will have people who believe and we will have people who don't.
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@Nevermind said:

Exactly. The god of the bible justifies bigotry, slavery, genocide, women treated as property, etc. etc. 
Then you must not be to familiar with the Gospels.  
 
@mrassh0le said:


1 Dark energy was adopted by scientist based on data and calculating of the universe's growth.It wasn't create by some mean spirited man simply cause he couldn't  it was accepted as the most likely hypothesis by even Steven Hawking.

 

2 God on the other hand was as you said adopted because of the unabilty man faced had to account for natural phenomenons and to destroy the fear of death.So far dark energy seems more likely.


1 Im not saying Dark Energy is some evil ploy, in fact I am in favor of it as a theory. But the fact is it is not observable by ANY (direct or indirect) means. It was thought up as a solution to fit the observations. Nothing wrong with that, but lets call it what it is. 
 
2 From a humanistic point of view your are correct, however I believe that humans know God not because they "invent him" but because historically he has personally touched people, even on a national scale.  
 
@Addfwyn said:
" @hitsusatsu11: Yes and no, on one hand, you are correct in saying the substances are both unobservable, the fact that many people have had 'personal experiences' with god (argument to popularity) is irrelevant, unless they can somehow document that experience.  And again, concept A (in this case, Dark Matter) not necessarily being observable does not make concept B (in this case God) any more likely.   I'd even grant you that both are, currently, non-proven concepts.  Not necessarily unprovable, but I've never seen an appropriate proof as of yet.
 
Dark Energy, not Matter. 
There is documented experiences of encounters with God(s) however of course those cannot be explicitly proven, and I don't think their meant to, I think thats where faith is incorporated: "Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe"- John 20:29) 
Your right concept A being unproven doesn't make concept B more likely as a whole, but it does show concept B slightly more likely than concept A based on the evidence. (Both are unobservable, and even if all the documentation of God turns out to be false, it is still better than no documentation-i.e no one claims to have observed Dark Energy, while many ppl, even if for arguments sake they are all wacko's, do claim to have personal experience's with God, therefore raising the probability slightly higher) 
Post by Guyver (3,406 posts) See mini bio Level 14
@mrassh0le said:
" @Guyver said:
" @mrassh0le said:
" @Guyver said:
" @mrassh0le said:


Dark energy was adopted by scientist based on data and calculating of the universe's growth.It wasn't create by some mean spirited man simply cause he couldn't  it was accepted as the most likely hypothesis by even Steven Hawking.God on the other hand was as you said adopted because of the unabilty man faced had to account for natural phenomenons and to destroy the fear of death.So far dark energy seems more likely.


As for God being observed t,I am going to respectfully disagree ,all religions claim to have had poeples meeting with God and none of those instances were documented. 
I don't belive in God because it is a logical paradox. 
God is omnipotent,omnibenevolent,omnipresent, and omniscient  
This would make him perfect 
Human bodies are imperfect 
A perfect thing creating imperfect things is a logical paradox 
Therefore God doesn't exist 

 
Before you say God is beyond our human understating/logic well i would like to point out that this would make God unfalsifiable an unfalsifiable premise is also unprovable.If something is unprovable well it isn,t to be belived.

"
I'm having trouble understanding how creating flawed creations means that God doesn't exist lol. Please, explain. "
It is a logical paradox "
Sounds very illogical to me. "
Ah *facepalm* God is omnipotent omnibenevolent and omnipotent He is both willing and capable of creating humans with perfect bodies based on those two ideas  Us having imperfect bodies proves that God isn't real As a perfect God (a god with all the attributes I named) would not create imperfect humans Him having those attributes yet us not having perfect bodies is a paradox therefore God does not exist. "
Be careful with yourself. You don't wanna hurt your face.
What kind of doctrine are you following lol? Where's your proof of this accusation? All I'm reading is a theory. It sounds to me that you met God.
 
How about this theory?
A perfect creator created an imperfect human capably and willingly, because he didn't want to create a perfect human.
 How does that sound?
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
God didn't create humans perfectly because he wanted them to have free will. Free will to obey him, or to sin. Thats the way its always been, he lets us freely choose between life and death, and wants us to choose life. "I have set before you two paths, life and death.....choose life" -Paraphrased from Deuteronomy 30:19 
 
As far as god being unfathomable, thats just the way he is. How can we by even the most advanced and abstract concepts fully understand the Lord? When those very same concepts where created by Him strictly for out benefit.  As God answered Moses when he asked for his name in Exodus 3:14 "I am that I am"  and again:   "I am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end"- Revelation 22:13
Post by Guyver (3,406 posts) See mini bio Level 14
This is what Islam believes. He created humans(and Jinns) for this purpose. He gave them a gift that angels don't have.
Post by Lemegeton300 (300 posts) See mini bio Level 10
Atheist true and true, i find the notion of god irrational
Post by Nevermind (942 posts) See mini bio Level 8
@hitsusatsu11: Oh I am familiar with them. The Gospels (though never read them, I am at least familiar with their philosophy). Problem is, most don't live by them and they are contradicted by the other parts of the Bible. I like how Thomas Jefferson just kept those four and discarded completely the Old Testamanet and the Book of Revelation, among others.
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@Nevermind: People not living by the standards of the Gospel doesn't discredit its teachings, which center on peace, piety, meekness, loving others as yourself, believing all people are equal. ("There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave or free, male of female: for all are equal in Christ"-Galatians 3:28) and believing that Christ is God incarnate,   
 
Jefferson kept the gospel's because of the morality, not the doctrine. Such a thing contradicts the gospels themselves.  (Another reason why he will always inferior to Hamilton)
Post by MrASSH0LE (2,328 posts) See mini bio Level 12
@Guyver:  
I have already explained to you why there is no reason why God humans with imperfect bodies with useless parts.God being perfect would have no excuse to create human bodies in an imperfect if he is omnibenevolent.As all things like the appendix seem to do is make a case agaisnt intelligent design.
@hitsusatsu11:
I was refferring to the human body  
They are seeral imperfections example lets say you get in an accident and you need a transplant of transfusion you can only get it from certain poeples. 
Up until a few centuries ago humans had a life expectency of only 30 years. 
The appendix is useless so are male nipples and extrinsic ear muscles. 
I have already explained this whole thing about God being beyond human undersatnding and logic. 
   
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@mrassh0le: The life span and the vitality of humanity were much much greater earlier on in biblical history. It is through the slow poisoning of our world, food and air, as well as turning away from God that has led to this state of decay.  
 
As far as humans being physically perfect, we are "Made in the image of God" -Genesis 1:27 but this doesn't mean God intended us to be perfect, he said "From dust you are, to the dust ye shall return" -Genesis 3:19 and again "All come from dust and to dust all return" -Ecclesiastes 3:20  
 
Human kind shall not be "perfect" in a sense until Christ returns and ppl are raised up in glory. 
Post by MrASSH0LE (2,328 posts) See mini bio Level 12
@hitsusatsu11 said:
 Human kind shall not be "perfect" in a sense until Christ returns and ppl are raised up in glory.  "
I was never referring to mankind but to the human body wich possesses superficial organs
@hitsusatsu11 said:

   As far as humans being physically perfect, we are "Made in the image of God" -Genesis 1:27 but this doesn't mean God intended us to be perfect, he said "From dust you are, to the dust ye shall return" -Genesis 3:19 and again "All come from dust and to dust all return" -Ecclesiastes 3:20      

 
"@mrassh0le: The life span and the vitality of humanity were much much greater earlier on in biblical history. It is through the slow poisoning of our world, food and air, as well as turning away from God that has led to this state of decay.  "



Sweden as an overrall life expectancy 80.9 ,america has a life expectancy of 78.3 ,Sweden is mostly atheist.  
Also what poisoning?What kind of pollution were poeple doing in the 1600s that they did not do when the gospel was written?Actually poeple at the time of the gospel had worse hygiene then poeple today and back in the 1600s.
 If God gave us imperfect bodies for no reason  with useless organs those organs are imperfections as they do not serve any purpose in either our survival of salvation, there is no logical reason why an all round perfect being would create such things when they serve no purpose.
   
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