Theism vs Atheism

Topic started by Mortein on Feb. 7, 2011. Last post by Bigheart711 1 year, 11 months ago.
Post by Gaff (213 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@Dream said:

"

The Big Bang consistently explains every observable cosmological phenomenon with absolutely no evidence pointing in another direction, in much the same way evolution consistently explains the way that life on earth operates- it works, plain and simple. Otherwise it wouldn't be a scientific theory. 

 
Oh, I wouldn't say that. The theory contradicts a number of scientific laws which include laws of thermodynamics and some other issues that come up which include personal bias in the studies theorized and a number of recent discoveries that ring in flaws to the theory as a whole which include cosmic phenomena that surpass the age of the universe and the length of the universe as a whole being too short of a time to have been created in 20 billion years (the approximate amount of time believed for our universe to have taken to be created according to the theory).
"
No offense, but reading through their bibliographies just makes me want to tear my eyes out. And I wish I was kidding, too.  
  • Seriously, you can't base one argument against The Big Bang Theory on Hubble's redshifting (an immediate side-effect from astronomical objects moving away or towards us) and then claim that "  Static universe models fit observational data better than expanding universe models.". That's just a gigantic contradiction.
  • Applying classical principles like the Laws of Thermodynamics into a level where even the smallest ray of light can change the very nature of atomic particles is... quaint, would be a... "nice" way of putting it.
I would rage on, but... pseudoscience, at best. 
 
@SilverGalford: With all due respect, you do know that there are more ways to prove Egyptians, pharaohs, Herod, etc, right?
Post by cfatalis (19,150 posts) See mini bio Level 15
@SilverGalford: psssh even if the bible is not true, the egypt, or any other civilization have much more concrete evidence,your bible is not "History: the perfect factual edition"
 
considering your proof, it is coming from YOUR RELIGION scripture, and not a neutral factual sources that can be proven immediately
Buddhist and Hindu religion speak of giants and two races of god going at war, Buddhist speak of a biologically impossible large turtle that help buddha cross a river 
Your god is proven true on your scripture
somebody elses god is proven true on their scriputre
 
which one is true if it have contradicting facts?
 
1. Did the 10 plague ever happen?, is there historical evidence it happened?, do they tell you which pharaoh received this plague upon it's rule
2.does Gods have to do something according to the humans wishes ? Does the mighty god of lightning, fire, something something have to say "Okay" when this lowly humans ask for fire from the sky, and really? is there proof of this happening? when is the bible written?
3.same thing, do they have to act ? just because their follower were getting slaughtered?, can we define/know/predict if this gods think the same way we does?
4.Satan or no Satan, the world have been "evil" in a sense much much earlier than the earliest scripture of John, Evil is  a moral statement, evil in one person eye is not always evil in another
5.why are we supposed to believe something that is probably told mouth to mouth without any backing evidence
yes the tale of the worlds creation, surely the human have written and been present at that time(to note many myth have different world creation, which one is correct? can you decide? can you provide fact to come to this decission)
Post by MrASSH0LE (2,330 posts) See mini bio Level 12
@SilverGalford said:
"      i don't know why many people hate God , he hasn't done anything to them . people have created a lot of problems themselves. God is not responsible for anything. "
Unless your gay ,an atheist ,a person of another religion ,a person who has sexual desires ,a deist , an agnostic ooooor if you support gay marrige
@SilverGalford said:

"LOL! God ftw , atheism can't help. that's my opinion.  and i will explain this :   ok if god didn't exist , that means my future is in the hands of people who have proven to fail over and over again , which indeed it's hopeless , (even in my hands ,my future doesn't look so well at  my best ). also if God didn't exist ,that means i could decide  what is right or wrong and   sometimes that is another  problem.   

1-That does not mean God is real just that you want him to be if all data pointed to a meteor crashing on the planet and destroying Haiti and you had  to judge wheter or not if it was real and then you "Said no cause they had it hard enough after the earthquake" would anybody see this as a compelling argument. 
 2-Moraliy comes from many things our instincts that we developped through evolution and our entourage no need for God,actually atheist countrys like Sweden have lower crime rates.
Post by cfatalis (19,150 posts) See mini bio Level 15
@mrassh0le: sweden being chosen as the most secure storage in the world , while being a comparatively  atheistic country 
should tell you something about the crime rate/security there
Post by MrASSH0LE (2,330 posts) See mini bio Level 12
@Dream:
Some scientist belive that our universe always existed,I also heard that the
Big Bang was a change rather than the beggining
Post by Organicalistic_ (182 posts) See mini bio Level 12
I don not believe in god or an after life or intelligent design, I think reincarnation is a neat concept and I wish i could believe that as true, but I dont believe that either
Post by SSJjanemba (2,256 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@Newdeath said: 
" this can get locked theism wins with ease "
LOL   And as far as the Big Bang Theory goes. I personally accept it since the expansion of the universe is obvious and most observational evidence is consistent with the theory.
But these universal expansion theories need highly hypothetical, completely unobservable Dark Energy to fit the observable data.  
 
 @Addfwyn:  


 
@hitsusatsu11: Sorry, I'm missing how the existence of a state in the middle east is the proof of a God, care to elaborate?  As well as the historically demonstrable evidence you claim?  Honest, it's the first time I think I've heard that argument, and I've heard of a LOT "

The history of Isreal. 
-God making such a nation of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as he promised. 
-Leading them out of Egypt and giving them the land he promised their forefathers.  
-Through the prophets and other scriptures promise's of return from exile, always fulfilled. 
-Promise of a savior of the line of David. 
 
The state of Isreal existing after what has been thousands of years of persecution is as inexplicable as if the Native American's completely took back NA tomorrow, were conquered and butchered again, then came back and retook NA again. The Hebrews have repeated this seemingly impossible process.  
 
That provides some historical reasons why I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and that he came in the flesh as Jesus Christ. 
There are other metaphysical reasons why I find a supreme omnipotent being logical. 
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@Addfwyn said:
" @SilverGalford: ...A deity is somehow an exception to your argument of 'everything needs a creator'?  Or do you claim that somehow this deity always existed, which renders moot your argument of the universe even needing some kind of creator to begin with.   
   
Not so. 
His claim is correct, something does not come from nothing.  
That is a fact within existence-that is to say withing the space time continuity that is our universe.  
 
The concept of time ("A day is as a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is as a day"- 2 Peter 3:8) and causality would naturally not apply to an omnipotent being. As such things theoretically were created by him for the benefit of his creation. (all of existence) 
Post by MrASSH0LE (2,330 posts) See mini bio Level 12
@hitsusatsu11 said:
   Not so. His claim is correct, something does not come from nothing. 
But god can?
Post by SuperperfectCell (528 posts) See mini bio Level 10
@sickVisionz:
an Omnipotent being would not have to follow the laws of physics otherwise it kind of defeats hte purpose of bieng "omnipotent" and humans are just mere mortals that are just starting to realy advance i dont think we can be compared to a Godly being.
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@mrassh0le said:

" @hitsusatsu11 said:

   Not so. His claim is correct, something does not come from nothing. 
But god can? "
Yes, because the concept of causality is something that was created for our benefit.  
An omnipotent being is incomprehensibly above even these somewhat abstract notions of metaphysics. 
Post by Gaff (213 posts) See mini bio Level 11
I suddenly have the feeling I'm thrust into a fact checker role here...

@hitsusatsu11 You do know that the "highly hypothetical, completely unobservable" dark matter has actually been observed? While not directly, its effects, such as gravitational lensing, have been seen.

I'll direct people to the wikipedia page of Dark Matter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter

Sigh.
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@Gaff said:

" I suddenly have the feeling I'm thrust into a fact checker role here...

@hitsusatsu11 You do know that the "highly hypothetical, completely unobservable" dark matter has actually been observed? While not directly, its effects, such as gravitational lensing, have been seen. I'll direct people to the wikipedia page of Dark Matter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter Sigh. "

Well then, I guess you just got fired as fact checker lol. 
 
Dark Energy my friend, the hypothetical energy that continues the universe's expansion in spite of the supposed fact that the force of gravity has overcome the propulsion due to the big bang. 
 
Not Dark Matter, that is different.  
 
 I'll direct people to the wikipedia page of Dark  Energy  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy
Post by Gaff (213 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@hitsusatsu11 Wonderful! Now how is that the same as "completely unobservable"?
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@Gaff: Because its a completely hypothetical energy. Scientists observed that for some reason the universe was still expanding, even though gravity should eventually stop the expansion and eventually force the universe to contract. To compensate for this, they decided the universe must be full of some "thing" which keeps expanding it-this they named Dark Energy and declared that around 70 percent of the universe is made up of it.   
 
Science has not observed Dark Energy, nor does science claim to know what it is. 
Its was simply thought up to explain the data.
Post by Gaff (213 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@hitsusatsu11
So, according to you:
1. Unexplained phenomena;
2. Think of something;
3. Done!
This is how science is done, right?

There's something missing here...
Post by SilverGalford (2,951 posts) See mini bio Level 11
 

  Unless your gay ,an atheist ,a person of another religion ,a person who has sexual desires ,a deist , an agnostic ooooor if you support gay marrige 

it's not surprising , people tend and like  to sin and do  bad things and to support these things you need to deny God without any reason. it's simple. this is real "convenience". that's what i called atheism. 
 

An omnipotent being is incomprehensibly above even these somewhat abstract notions of metaphysics.  

that's right , we can't understand even the universe itself  completely, understanding God completely is impossible.

       

  psssh even if the bible is not true, the egypt, or any other civilization have much more concrete evidence,your bible is not "History: the perfect factual edition  

prove it. not by speculation , by facts . archeology has proven the bible is right. i was wondering if you knew that . because by your comments i can see a feelling of anger  or hate towards God or the bible . not only you but many atheists  has shown me the same thing. 
don't get me wrong, but if you wanna think by your feelings. it's not a good idea. 
 
i don't try to do that , i try to find a logical explanation . at least God is not a liar , he FULLFILLS his promises, he is not limited , he is not imperfect , he is not corrupted, he is not unfair.  unlike humans who are the opposite. why should i totally believe in someone who almost never act in good faith? in beings like humans?.   

god can?


isaiah 40: 26 
 
 "Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens: 
   Who created all these? 
He who brings out the starry host one by one 
   and calls forth each of them by name. 
Because of his great power and mighty strength, 
   not one of them is missing." 
 
God used his power to create everything . understanding that power is something impossible. 
 
the main reason why i use the bible to argument is because the bible is God's word. God is a being that can't be analize by human methods .he is beyond everything . we are different from him in many aspects , the only way to know  him ,not completely of course, is by using the bible.  
 

 Yes, because the concept of causality is something that was created for our benefit.    

yes  ,that's correct. think about , a world without God looks good for many people because they like to do "things" they consider "good" 
they want to do "things" they consider "right" .
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@Gaff: 
 So, according to you: 
This is not according to me, its the the consensus (and only scientific view) of Dark Energy.

Dark Energy is a hypothetical phenomena, thats what it is classified as in the scientific community. I'm sorry that you aren't familiar with the concept of Dark Energy, and that you confuse it with Dark Matter but Dark Energy is an unobservable, hypothetical phenomena. Unless you have some independent research you'd like to share, you can't claim otherwise. (And if you did have some research indicating Dark Energy is anything more than hypothetical, then you'd certainly be a shoe in for the Nobel Prize in physics) 
Post by SilverGalford (2,951 posts) See mini bio Level 11

 and causality would naturally not apply to an omnipotent being.  

yes again you are right humans standards and physics don't and can't apply to God. God doesn't live or exist by our standards or physics. his way of seeing things is very different .that's why the creation was written in that way. in god's way and point of view we couldn't understand anything.
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