Theism vs Atheism

Topic started by Mortein on Feb. 7, 2011. Last post by Bigheart711 1 year, 9 months ago.
Post by Nevermind (942 posts) See mini bio Level 8
@Dream:  Actually it has. The Big Bang consistently explains every observable cosmological phenomenon with absolutely no evidence pointing in another direction, in much the same way evolution consistently explains the way that life on earth operates- it works, plain and simple. Otherwise it wouldn't be a scientific theory.
 
Of course, what happened before the Big Bang is still unknown, so the religious person can find comfort in that.
Post by Dream (7,462 posts) See mini bio Level 20
Moderator
Post by Destinyheroknight (10,240 posts) See mini bio Level 21
Yes and no, that all I'm saying
Post by SSJjanemba (2,176 posts) See mini bio Level 11
this can get locked theism wins with ease
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,746 posts) See mini bio Level 20
The Big Bang is by no means a fact.  (I personally favor it) 
In fact scientists were very reluctant to accept it, widely popular was a theory of an infinitely old universe, which go's through periods of expansion and contraction.  
 
About the actual age of the universe, its really anyone's guess.  
For instance, rotational properties of spiral galaxies would seem impossible if the universe were indeed billions of years old, yet the formation of galaxies seems to take longer than the age of the universe (100 billion years) 
 
We know next to nothing about the nature of the universe. 
Post by Nevermind (942 posts) See mini bio Level 8
@Dream:  Well the problem with it contradicting the law of thermodynamics is that supposedly the Big Bang happened before the laws of physics as we know them took effect.
 
The other link is rather extensive. Yes there are problems with the standard model but it still best explains what we can observe.
 
This whole thing has me on the epistemological problem though lol.
Post by SilverGalford (2,951 posts) See mini bio Level 11


  The Big Bang is by no means a fact.  (I personally favor it)   

nothing comes from nothing , it's  that simple. and also  proven. 
 

So you don't care whether your beliefs are true or not, you just go with what seems the most comfortable?


 my faith is not blind , i won't say what religion  i profess , i know there are a lot of people out there talking a lot of things about this issue. but how can you make sure what you believe is true? that needs investigation. and that's what i do . it does matter what i profess or believe  and i need to figure out what i believe is right . 
 
actually God tells me that :  
   
 1 John 4: 1 

" Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" 
 
but how can you tell if someone tells the truth?  
  
1  corinthians 5: 11 
 
 "But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister  but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people."
  
and  

james 2: 26  
 
 " As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. "   
  
if a person claims he believes in God and worships him , but at the same time this person practices evil  things all the time  and in secret  , then he is a liar ,  just like the pharisees.
  
those kind of people and worship God doesn't accept.  . that's for sure. and God is not stupid.
 
as for atheism ,  atheism has a lot of arguments against  itself. it's not about convenience , it's about investigation. so because someone told me , "hey you know ,God doesn't exist " , should  i believe that at once?. and why should i deny God? so   because the fact  that people say "God doesn't exist"  that means he really doesn't exist?  

 
you can choose if you want to believe or not , it's up to you. i have my reasons  to believe in God and those are not convenient reasons. 
i have been investigating this issue a lot . 
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,746 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@SilverGalford: I agree. I do believe the universe did have a definite point of beginning, when the Lord created it. In fact when the theory of the Big Bang was still young some scientists opposed it because they thought the idea of a single point of beginning existence naturally indicated creation of some sort. (they of course were atheist) 
Post by SilverGalford (2,951 posts) See mini bio Level 11

 when the theory of the Big Bang was still young some scientists opposed it because they thought the idea of a single point of beginning existence naturally indicated creation of some sort.      

surely , everything needs a creator , something which comes  from nothing sounds illogical and unreasonable.
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,746 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@SilverGalford said:
    if a person claims he believes in God and worships him , but at the same time this person practices evil  things all the time  and in secret  , then he is a liar ,  just like the pharisees.  
True, as it is written "Who ever says he loves the Lord yet hates his brother is a liar" 
 -1 John 4:20
Post by SilverGalford (2,951 posts) See mini bio Level 11

 True, as it is written "Who ever says he loves the Lord yet hates his brother is a liar" 
 -1 John 4:20  


i was thinking about that scripture too.
Post by Guyver (3,406 posts) See mini bio Level 14
@Nevermind said:
" @Dream:  Actually it has. The Big Bang consistently explains every observable cosmological phenomenon with absolutely no evidence pointing in another direction, in much the same way evolution consistently explains the way that life on earth operates- it works, plain and simple. Otherwise it wouldn't be a scientific theory.  Of course, what happened before the Big Bang is still unknown, so the religious person can find comfort in that. "
It's funny, cause there's actually a holy book that supports The Big Bang theory, centuries before scientists came up with the theory.
Post by Addfwyn (408 posts) See mini bio Level 16
@SilverGalford: ...A deity is somehow an exception to your argument of 'everything needs a creator'?  Or do you claim that somehow this deity always existed, which renders moot your argument of the universe even needing some kind of creator to begin with.   
 
Regardless, claiming that the lack of knowledge about the creation of the universe proves a god is an argument from ignorance.  The lack of knowledge does not justify the claim in a totally different theory, it just means you don't know.     
 
@hitsusatsu11: Sorry, I'm missing how the existence of a state in the middle east is the proof of a God, care to elaborate?  As well as the historically demonstrable evidence you claim?  Honest, it's the first time I think I've heard that argument, and I've heard of a LOT
Post by Newdeath (18,555 posts) See mini bio Level 19
@SSJjanemba said:
" this can get locked theism wins with ease "
LOL  
 
And as far as the Big Bang Theory goes. I personally accept it since the expansion of the universe is obvious and most observational evidence is consistent with the theory. Why don't I believe in God? I don't believe there is enough evidence to claim his existence as absolute truth, I'm not against religion at all actually, I've actually studied most religions (I find them interesting), what bothers me is when a person calls you crazy or stupid etc. for not believing in God and when people preach at me or tell me I'll go to Hell for not accepting the Lord etc. I'll let you believe what you want if you do the same for me.  
 
I would actually like to believe that God is real (I don't however find anything that plausibly supports his existence or any facts, even more so because the Bible was written by a human being and not sent down to the surface of the Earth by lightning bolt or something in that area), unfortunately I don't, I don't find it plausible to believe in him and I can actually type up a more prolonged reason explaining my choice (I will type it if requested). While I do find that some of the things that religion teaches such as brotherly love etc. is quite good, I simply do not believe in God. 
 
ND
Post by cfatalis (19,150 posts) See mini bio Level 15
I believe there's a "God" check
I don't believe any of the Religion check
 
where does this believe put me into ?
 
The world is there because it's there
do you actually need to know how it was created
I for one will let everyone think something to their own believe, since it is not proven yet
 
and why does Atheism and Theism is always described as a battle?
they are both believes, not fact, not truth
they contradict each other, yes, but really? nearly all religion have contradicting believes
 
but here is a food for thought
to all theist who says atheist are a bunch of looneys: which one is a bunch of looneys, the one that doesn't believe something that cannot be proven to be "there" OR a person who believes that somewhere there's something, which they cannot prove outside of a bunch of scriptures
 ALSO
to all atheist who says vice versa: basically the same applies, do you have proof that god is not there/doesn't exist AT ALL? take it as a believing of a concept, e.g a democrat who believes in "democracy" , liberal who believes in "freedom"
 
simply this argument is simply ridiculous, they are both believes, there's no winning, there's no loss 
 
simple
Post by Mortein (1,558 posts) See mini bio Level 9
@cfatalis said:
" I believe there's a "God" check I don't believe any of the Religion check  where does this believe put me into ?  
Theist

" they are both believes, not fact, not truth they contradict each other, yes, but really? "
Atheism is not belief, it is disbelief. 
If I tell you there is invisible intangible guy, who can't be tested by any scientific method behind you, will you believe me?
Post by SilverGalford (2,951 posts) See mini bio Level 11

 
 universe even needing some kind of creator to begin with.     

 The lack of knowledge does not justify the claim in a totally different theory,   

 it just means you don't know.     
it's simple nothing comes from nothing. otherwise prove me wrong ,i don't need to understand everything ,because that's impossible , there is no human in this world who can't do that . if you believe that , go ahead prove it. try to create something from nothing . i would  love  to see what you mean. isn't in this way how science proves something?
 

 The world is there because it's there   

from nothing and without reason?  everything exists for some reason. you  do something for some reason   you don't create a pc just because you want to do it , you don't create a airplane because you want to do it , you don't study medicine because again you want to do it. you don't kill someone because you want to , you don't post on this website because you just want to do it . everything has a reason, a cause. if life didn't  have any meaning , our existence would be worthless and doomed.

 they are both believes, not fact, not truth   

actually God is the truth  
 

 they contradict each other, yes, but really? nearly all religion have contradicting believes   

that's why you need to investigate very well . if you don't do that , you will still  think the same .
 

 something that cannot be proven to be "there" OR a person who believes that somewhere there's something, which they cannot prove outside of a bunch of scriptures    

without scriptures it can be explained.    

let's see the creation, for example, it's impossible to believe that this beautiful planet , of course polluted by the man , appeared from nothing . and the order of the universe. our solar system , everything is well created with proper conditions , i can't believe that something without mind , feelings or thought created everything. i can't conceive that idea because the creation speaks by itself.
 

 to all atheist who says vice versa: basically the same applies, do you have proof that god is not there/doesn't exist AT ALL?   

i say the same.  
 

 simply this argument is simply ridiculous, they are both believes, there's no winning, there's no loss    

it's not about winning ,it's about understanding. it's about WHY we think in this way, this is not a contest. 
Post by cfatalis (19,150 posts) See mini bio Level 15
@SilverGalford: hence the same could be said to you
 
By what basis are you saying that God is a truth, it's basically saying that "I am Correct" and "you are wrong" with people belief where you have zero proof of them being wrong and you being right, in other word not just a Devil's proof ( You are wrong(which you haven't proof) therefore I am correct)
 
Hence you are fixed on the concept of creationism, and giving God a personality, a being, a feeling which he might or might not have
and investigate what?
 
My Father is a buddhist, My Mom is catholic
My father believes that when someone dies they will be reincarnated  OR ascend to higher plane of existence
my Mother believes that when someone dies they will go to the afterlife without chance of being reborn
 
what is this if it isn't contradicting?  that ne religion is a fact and the others are lies?
 
If everything happen with reason what is the root of this reason? You cannot simply gives reason to everything, your theory of reason depends on the world created for a reason being true , which belongs to something , A theory that is based on a a feeling that you felt that the world couldn't have existed without something you name as god , which you can't proof to exist otherwise
I am not saying that god doesn't exist , is it that people shouldn't say something is wrong unless it is by itself is proven wrong, or for something to be true unless by itself

@Mortein:  Atheism is a belief, it's a belief where god doesn't exist, you cannot define something based on another 
i could also say the same way that Theism is a disbelieve by going into that it's a disbelieve that god/deities doesn't exist 
Post by damswedon (277 posts) See mini bio Level 16
Ludwig Feuerbach said: 

"god is man writ large."

Post by SilverGalford (2,951 posts) See mini bio Level 11
before continue there is more:  
 
if God doesn't exist: 
 
then history is false. 
ancient Egypt and the pharaon never existed , the jerusalem temple is a fairy tale created by one man, jesus christ never came to the earth ,babylonians never destroyed jerusalem . ancient israel never existed , it was an illusion.  persians never helped israelites to repair the temple. herod never existed . moses never existed, and he was listening to nothing maybe his imagination , and so on . 
  
as you can see , this affects history in some way.

 "god is man writ large."  

no , there were  lots  of "gods" in the past but only yahweh proved to be real .let's see : 
 
-when God brought the ten plagues upon  egypt , those egyptians gods didn't do anything
 
-in the mount carmel , elijah proved that God is real  by doing a sacrifice challenging those false worshippers of baal  who failed. their god was useless.
 
-when the kingdom of israel was being attacked by sennacherib , king of assyria , hezekiah prayed to God and he helped him by sending just one angel who killed eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp.  where were those pagan gods to help them?  
 
now you may wonder , why is not God doing something today? this is because :  
   
     1 john 5: 19:  

 " We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. "   
 
he is not ruling the world in these days ,but he will do it in the future , satan is the ruler of this world.  
 
 

 If everything happen with reason what is the root of this reason?  

this was :   
 genesis 1 :   

  
28 
And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth." 
29 
 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 
 
living in a perfect and beautiful world. 
 but when people decide to do what they want disobeying God's standards . when they decide to play GOD . this is the result , a miserable hopeless  world like this which hopefully will end soon .
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