Intelligence V.S. Everything

Topic started by Kurohige on Feb. 12, 2010. Last post by SilverGalford 2 years, 10 months ago.
Post by Kurohige (3,755 posts) See mini bio Level 19

Okay so this is simple in battles like with batman or people with prep its always a win in real life and anime can strength speed ect beat a almost unlimited amount of intelligence? Can someone who has infident intelligence be beaten by anything without it? Obviously not gods or anything but someone with all the answers all the knowledge on everything and everyone, can do the impossible can figure out ANYTHING be beaten?
Post by Newdeath (18,555 posts) See mini bio Level 19
Interesting question. An omniscient being would essentially possess complete and total knowledge therefore said being would have the answers for everything, it would know the weaknesses of everything and everyone as well as how to exploit them, also being omniscient means that said being would be aware that another being would attack it before the other being even acted upon that desire. To answer your question I believe that yes, a being with omniscience would know how to defeat anyone and anything. 
 
ND
Post by Oishi_47 (221 posts) See mini bio Level 8
Intelligence and ability are two different things. A self aware, omniscient brain in a jar would not survive long if it were placed in a cage with a hungry...anything, but to it's credit, it would know what was eating it.
Post by rein (5,465 posts) See mini bio Level 15
Well, i know that if you cut an atom an explosion will happen, But I can't physically do it.
Post by Kurohige (3,755 posts) See mini bio Level 19
@rein said:
"Well, i know that if you cut an atom an explosion will happen, But I can't physically do it. "

Good point.
Post by MohsinMan99 (1,777 posts) See mini bio Level 21

@Oishi_47 said:

Intelligence and ability are two different things. A self aware, omniscient brain in a jar would not survive long if it were placed in a cage with a hungry...anything, but to it's credit, it would know what was eating it.

While I realize this may not probably reach you, by definition, that omniscient brain would know how to survive if it was placed in a cage with a hungry anything and would know the way the get out, the way to spank that hungry anything and finally the way to rule anything.

I'm talking about true omniscience of course, not the limited version of omniscience you see in fiction usually. :)

As for this thread, anyone who has True Omniscience is equal to a True Omnipotent so yeah, he'd rule everything because he is able to do anything, even that which is logically impossible.

Post by sickVisionz (4,310 posts) See mini bio Level 24
Moderator

Knowing is only half the battle. If that infinite knowledge is combined with infinite resources then maybe, but knowledge on its own won't do you any good if you don't have the resources needed to act on it and do something.

Post by Oishi_47 (221 posts) See mini bio Level 8

@MohsinMan99: I realize that it would know how to survive in any circumstance, but it does not have the ability to do so. A conclusion that the brain itself would come to. The construct of the omniscient brain lacks the ability to affect any of its surroundings or anything else. It has no means of mobility or to enact any kind of force or influence. It cannot even convey information. For all intents and purposes, it is simply an object that occupies a space...an object made of tasty, tasty meat.

Hey, this is like having a pen pal.

Post by JonSmith (185 posts) See mini bio Level 7

So I'm seeing a lot of people saying that even if an individual was truly omnipotent, if it lacked the ability to act on that knowledge, it would be useless. But doesn't omnipotence, by basic definition, mean that said being would know everything, i.e., what would be attacking it, how it would attack it, what it's weaknesses are, etc? Thus, wouldn't it stand to reason that a completely omnipotent being with, as the original poster put it, 'infinite knowledge', would know past, present, and future, thus allowing it to place itself in a position of strength, with the available resources to defeat the alleged foe, WAY before that foe even began to think about attacking it? Even a disembodied brain, as one person put it, provided it had an ability to communicate, would be able to manipulate it's way to a position using that knowledge to protect itself.

And I think that while the original poster didn't explicitly state it as criteria, he referenced Batman, so for the sake of the argument, let's say said brain is an average human being with average physical ability and total omnipotence. Taking that into account, there would be very little that could defeat them.

But then again, I've already stated in one of my previous posts somewhere on this site that I prescribe to the theory that anyone with enough intelligence and preperation could overcome any obstacle regardless of superiority in raw power. So perhaps I'm a bit biased.

That said, I do hereby verify my entire point with one single phrase.

This thread is part of Aizen's plan.

Post by MohsinMan99 (1,777 posts) See mini bio Level 21

@Oishi_47:You're not getting this. My definition of Omniscience aka True Omniscience is "Knowledge of every single thing;impossible or not." If a being has knowledge of everything, it would have the ability to do anything and since it has the knowledge/experience/know-how of everything, performing anything at all would be simply no problem at all.

What you are doing is assuming that even though an Omniscient knows everything, he is limited by his body and other factors, i.e., in short saying that he has no knowledge of something what we humans deem as impossible. Such an entity though-is not Omniscient.

Post by Oishi_47 (221 posts) See mini bio Level 8

@MohsinMan99: The way I put it in my original post was essentially an omniscient object. It sounds like you are making an argument for an omniscient being without a physical manifestation. I'm simply saying that knowledge and the ability to do something useful with it are two different things. for example, say someone was intimately familiar with the operation of a parachute. The know all the ins and outs of parachutes and skydiving in general. Say then that they jump from a plane a mile above the ground, but without a parachute. That knowledge of how to use a device that could save them would not. Likewise if they were and expert on aeronautics or birds, there would be little else they could do but flap their arms until they finally reach the ground. An omniscient being that has no way to meaningfully interact in not omnipotent, or potent for that matter. You are describing a metaphysical manifestation whereas I'm positing something more like a flash drive with survival manuals loaded on it being tossed into the woods. Not a good one either; think like those free 4gb ones that people get for free and work for a week. I think the key difference in our definitions is that yours assumes certain properties of reality such as a metaverse a la string theory and the like, and mine accounts for the single universe we know exists and all of the physical properties that that implies.

tl;dr We are either arguing beliefs or semantics, both equally pointless.

Post by MohsinMan99 (1,777 posts) See mini bio Level 21

@Oishi_47: In short, what you are talking about is inherited/limited Omniscience and what I'm talking about is the True/Total version. :D

Quoting a friend and dear old wikipedia:

1. There is a distinction between:

  • inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
  • total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.

2. To give a simple example, a true omniscient should know what value to use for "x" to make this algebraic equation true: 5x = 6x. Even though this is impossible, one can make the argument that "if the character doesn't know what value to use for x to make the equation true, then the character doesn't truly know everything, and is therefore not omniscience".

Now that I think about, Omni- anything could be disputed using logical fallacies and semantics. Basically anything that's truly Omni- anything would have to be above logic and therefore truly Omnipotent.

Similarly, as in your case, if the character was really an omniscient, he would have the knowledge and in turn have the ability to be able to survive the jump. He would have the knowledge of where exactly he would fall, the force with which he would fall, the measures he can take to prevent from dying, the exact time he has to execute those measures, the exact time he would be on the ground, what happens before and what will happen later in time, etc. In fact, since he has the knowledge, he'd know a method of jumping which won't hurt him at all when he lands no matter what the height (even though it is impossible). His natural abilities don't matter here at all since he has all the knowledge needed to surpass his limits as he has total knowledge of everything, even the impossible.

That's why I said a True Omnisceint is essentially a True Omniscient and vice versa. Going back to the omniscient brain argument, why, if that brain really has knowledge of everything, then it has the knowledge to surpass itself, knowledge to overcome the situation despite the handicap, knowledge to take the necessary steps required in any period of time, etc. If it doesn't? Then I'm afraid it isn't omniscient.

Finally, NewDeath (second post in this thread) answered this perfectly. Just take a look at it.

Post by Anzendenai (413 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@Oishi_47 said:

Intelligence and ability are two different things. A self aware, omniscient brain in a jar would not survive long if it were placed in a cage with a hungry...anything, but to it's credit, it would know what was eating it.

It could talk him/her/it out off eating it[ and he could develop psychokinetic powers and many more

It would know how to become omnipotent and pretty sure such a kwnoledge is impossible to contain so user would be partly too big for one universe to containt him

Post by sickVisionz (4,310 posts) See mini bio Level 24
Moderator

Knowing and the ability to do something aren't the same. I think you assume that they are and that simply knowing something's weakness means that you have the skill and ability to take advantage of it.

Post by MohsinMan99 (1,777 posts) See mini bio Level 21

^That is true and correct for a normal being but for an omniscient? No.

If you know it, what's stopping you from doing it? If you know how to surpass your default capabilities, what's stopping you from going beyond them? If you know <insert anything here>, what is stopping you at all?

If you have knowledge of everything including the possible and impossible, there is literally nothing you can't accomplish.

Post by JonSmith (185 posts) See mini bio Level 7

@sickVisionz: If you know exactly what a person will do, in every way, every thought and consideration they will ever have, and they try to fight you, you would KNOW they'd try to fight you WAY before they even considered it. Effectively meaning you could plan and prepare to the point they wouldn't stand a chance, regardless of their strength. Even if they do get to fight you, you'll know every move they make, making dodging those attacks easy, and you would KNOW that it would have resulted in a fight already, and planned to take them down in said fight.

True omnipotence would mean it would be impossible for you to fail at ANYTHING, because if it was possible for a plan to fail, you wouldn't think of it, BECAUSE it would fail. Circular reasoning, but that would presumably be the way it works: You'd know your own plan before the events to spawn that plan ever happened. You'd know why that event would happen, you'd know everyone involved in it, you'd know what their role in it was, why they were there, what they did there, what you'll do there, what course of action you'll take. Etc. It's pretty tricky to really comprehend, but the fact is that if a being is truly omnipotent, it's impossible for them to fail at anything. Even if they wanted to and tried to fail at something, they would KNOW ahead of time that it would go exactly as they'd know it would. Which is a pretty insane way to think about it, but still.

To directly address your statement of there being a difference between something's weakness meaning that you have the skill/ability to take advantage of it, you may not have the ability yourself, but you would know about so far ahead of time that you would have preparations set TO take advantage of those weaknesses. Past, present, future, it's all wrapped up in omnipotence. At least, that's my understanding of it. I apologize if this isn't really perfectly clear, turns out when you really start thinking about what true omnipotence would be like, it kinda tends to run about.

Post by MohsinMan99 (1,777 posts) See mini bio Level 21

@JonSmith: Perfectly explained. Couldn't have said it better. :D

Post by sickVisionz (4,310 posts) See mini bio Level 24
Moderator

I have a separation between knowing everything and being able to do anything. But if that's the case, then yes. It's obvious that a person who knows everything (even impossible things) and can do anything (even impossible things) can beat someone who doesn't have a skill set matching that.

@MohsinMan99 said:

If you know it, what's stopping you from doing it?

In this situation where nothing is impossible and rules of reality don't apply, then yes, nothing could stop you. In something more grounded, the rules of reality would apply and those rules have hard limits and constraints that make the impossible impossible.

Post by MrASSH0LE (2,335 posts) See mini bio Level 12

Somebody who exists outside of our reality would technically not be part of what omniscient person knows.

Post by JonSmith (185 posts) See mini bio Level 7

@sickVisionz: Except that like you said earlier in this thread:

@sickVisionz said:

Knowing is only half the battle. If that infinite knowledge is combined with infinite resources then maybe, but knowledge on its own won't do you any good if you don't have the resources needed to act on it and do something.

The difference is: Even in reality, a person with infinite knowledge/omnipotence would know exactly who to manipulate or speak with to gain those resources, and would know exactly how to use them to do whatever they wanted. Though naturally, they'd know what they'd want before even beginning to get the- GAH. Gotta stop that. So essentially, in reality or fantasy, omnipotence transcends those borders and makes fantasy reality. Laws of physics, matter, TIME, an omnipotent individual would know exactly how to invent or design something to allow the manipulation of these traits. Combined with the resources they could gain utilizing their infinite knowledge, they would be able to build these devices and thus, if they so chose, manipulate reality until fantasy WAS reality.

After all: If you can change the laws of physics, matter, and time, what would be stopping you from changing the world as you saw fit?

... And now this is getting uncomfortably close to the inevitable 'at what point does a person = God'... I had hoped to avoid that...

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