Are character statements a reliable means of judging attributes?

Topic started by Dream on Nov. 10, 2013. Last post by Supreme Marvel 11 months, 2 weeks ago.
Post by Dream (7,902 posts) See mini bio Level 21
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Considering there are some folks that will rely on spoken character statements and assume they are a reliable means of getting information on a character's physical attributes and abilities (especially in long-running shounen battle anime like the HST and DBZ), I figured I'd ask this. Would you believe that character statements are a good means of determining a character's capabilities in battle?

In my case, I've only been using it on a case-by-case basis depending on the title and what the author/ creator's intentions are. Plus, I'm way more fickle with trusting statements from shounen battle anime since there are a number of notable cases where the scope of a character's abilities are greatly exaggerated upon by characters as such statements seem to only be there to excite readers/ viewers into reading/ watching further or seeing the next chapter/ episode of whatever series they are reading/ watching. I'd take such statements to be hyperbole in this case. Some examples:

-Itachi's Amaterasu and Yamamoto's zankpatou generating flames as hot as the sun. (Naruto/ Bleach)

-Cell capable of destroying a solar system with a ki blast (Dragon Ball Z).

-Aizen's big Black Coffin on Dangai Ichigo capable of tearing through space and time. (Bleach)

-Claims of Yuyu Hakusho characters being planet-busters.

I know this is likely gonna be controversial discussion since we all have differing ways of scaling/ judging feats within a series. But considering some notable users on here like relying on character statements to gauge a characters attributes and accept them as truth, I believe this has to be discussed.

Post by Supreme Marvel (5,176 posts) See mini bio Level 12

No. Towards the Dragon Ball Z stuff. How do they know they can destroy it? They've never did it, and Goku is an idiot when it has nothing to do with fighting. How would he know what level of power it would take to destroy the solar system?

In comics, it's even worse. Character say the same thing about different characters.

"Batman is the most dangerous person on the planet"

"Martian Manhunter is the most dangerous person on the planet"

I think Superman said them both.

Unless a character, in manga/animé, has actually did it, they should never be able to know. You have Roshi with his minuscule power level compared to final form Frieza, can destroy a a moon, yet Frieza cannot destroy a planet instantly around 50 times bigger with a much bigger difference in power. It shows me that characters miss judge things. So a lot of things a character says I call bullshit on. Especially if it seems far-fetched.

Post by SMXLR8 (7,375 posts) See mini bio Level 16
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@Dream: wrong place

can you move this?

Post by flamesaber (423 posts) See mini bio Level 8
Comics are the worst in character statements.
A random dude says he is a multi galaxy buster and people take him as a universal threat.
Without the character bursting a galaxy

Post by Dream (7,902 posts) See mini bio Level 21
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@SMXLR8: Don't see what the issue is since this is involving how folks judge characters within battle threads.

Post by SMXLR8 (7,375 posts) See mini bio Level 16
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@Dream: not a battle though

Post by Sonata (35,514 posts) See mini bio Level 20
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I'll move this to off-topic it's not technically a battle.

Post by Dream (7,902 posts) See mini bio Level 21
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@SMXLR8: A bit hypocritical to say if you have a thread asking about the speed of top tiers in HST and the Facepalm Awards threads still floating around in here.

Post by SMXLR8 (7,375 posts) See mini bio Level 16
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@Dream: @Sonata said:

I'll move this to off-topic it's not technically a battle.

thank you

Post by Sonata (35,514 posts) See mini bio Level 20
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@Dream said:

@SMXLR8: A bit hypocritical to say if you have a thread asking about the speed of top tiers in HST and the Facepalm Awards threads still floating around in here.

Good Point they will be moved as well.

Post by ImDictatorBowDown (2,129 posts) See mini bio Level 13

Depends on the context, character, and whether it has any other evidence to back it up, people aren't going to believe that Sena is truly lightspeed but calling Raizen a planet buster doesn't seem so far fetched even if his feats are mostly character statements.

Post by Son_Wukong (221 posts) See mini bio Level 7

@Supreme Marvel said:

No. Towards the Dragon Ball Z stuff. How do they know they can destroy it? They've never did it, and Goku is an idiot when it has nothing to do with fighting. How would he know what level of power it would take to destroy the solar system?

In comics, it's even worse. Character say the same thing about different characters.

"Batman is the most dangerous person on the planet"

"Martian Manhunter is the most dangerous person on the planet"

I think Superman said them both.

Unless a character, in manga/animé, has actually did it, they should never be able to know. You have Roshi with his minuscule power level compared to final form Frieza, can destroy a a moon, yet Frieza cannot destroy a planet instantly around 50 times bigger with a much bigger difference in power. It shows me that characters miss judge things. So a lot of things a character says I call bullshit on. Especially if it seems far-fetched.

It was Cell who made the solar system busting claim and Cell isn't stupid by any means.

DBZ characters have ki sense and so can tell the power behind a ki attack, if Piccolo knew how much energy it would take to destroy the moon, why wouldn't Cell know how much it took to destroy the solar system?

Anyway First Form Frieza casually destroyed Planet Vegeta (a planet with 10X Earth's gravity) with one finger:

How much energy is takes to destroy a planet with 10X Earth's gravity

Frieza only core busted Namek because he held back:

http://imageshack.us/a/img35/7233/friezaheldback.jpg

Due to his pride as a warrior:

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2

Context: Freeza’s still powering up

Freeza: “85%...90…”

Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…

Note: Goku might be talking about himself, or both he and Freeza, not having any regrets as warriors.

It was blatant PIS so Goku could win.

I can't help but find it funny that someone with a Kid Goku avatar would reach so far to downplay DBZ.

As for the topic itself it depends on who is making the statement, who the characters is talking about and in what context, For example Whis' statement about Bills:

Whis warns everyone to be careful what they say; if anything rubs Beerus the wrong way, he will destroy the entire solar system in no time at all.

This statement should be accepted because:

1. The one making it is Whis, Bills' martial arts master and attendant for thousands of years, therefore he should have a deep knowledge on what Bills is capable of.

2. Considering the way Whis said it it's likely Bills has gotten annoyed and destroyed solar systems in the past.

3. Bills' job as the God of Destruction is to destroy planets and stars therefore it's logical that he's able to destroy solar systems.

4. Whis isn't boasting nor does he have any reason to lie, he's just giving everyone a warning of what Bills is capable of when angry.

Post by supernova7005 (1,966 posts) See mini bio Level 15

Character statements should be used on a case basis ie. as long as a character is not being cocky and nothing contradicts them

Itachi's Amaterasu and Yamamoto's zankpatou generating flames as hot as the sun. (Naruto/ Bleach)

Amaterasu is hyperbole since there is nothing apart from a vague statement. And given that fodder characters like karin could survive Amaterasu, its surely not in the thousands.

Yamamoto's is not hyperbole, since a number is explicitly stated in the manga. Neither do feats contradict it, since his Shikai itself was hot enough to completely vape a Sternritter right to the bones.

Cell capable of destroying a solar system with a ki blast (Dragon Ball Z).

The daizenshuu confirms Cell to be a solar system buster

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/3/37697/689593-9ENWoVf.jpg

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/3/37697/689594-RGEagNp.png

Aizen's big Black Coffin on Dangai Ichigo capable of tearing through space and time. (Bleach)

That feat is unquantifiable. Btw even Neutron stars have enough gravity to distort space-time

Claims of Yuyu Hakusho characters being planet-busters.

There was no such claim about planet busting in YYH. The only such things implied in the manga are

#1 Sensui's statement that 1/5th of his power will put too much stress on the planet

#2 Genkai stating CB Yusuke had enough power to destroy the world and no one could stop him.

As for the first one, Sensui only stated his Seikoki would put too much stress on the planet if he uses more than 1/5th of his power. There is no question of busting. For the second, destroying the world doesn't necessarily mean busting the planet. It could also mean Yusuke life-wiping the Earth, or destroying one country at a time. YYH's high-top tiers are in the country-continent+ range by feats so this interpretation makes more sense

In short, nothing from that statement implies completely erasing a planet in one blast. .

Post by Destinyheroknight (10,337 posts) See mini bio Level 21

Only if it make sense in universe

Like with Cell's Solar System claim (in manga), no DBZ character have shown that kind of power before or after. And the other fact that it be killing itself, because it is in the Solar System

Post by Dream (7,902 posts) See mini bio Level 21
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@Aamir:

Yamamoto's is not hyperbole, since a number is explicitly stated in the manga.

Except how would he even know what that number is since I doubt Soul Society has sophisticated means of getting accurate numbers for facts and it seems very overblown since no other Bleach character has demonstrated life-wiping capabilities thus far in the series.

The daizenshuu confirms Cell to be a solar system buster

I interpreted that to be more a summarization of what was presented within the series, especially with Cell appearing to get cocky in his boast when he wanted to challenge SSJ2 Gohan's power after getting his Zenkai.

Post by supernova7005 (1,966 posts) See mini bio Level 15

@Dream said:

Except how would he even know what that number is since I doubt Soul Society has sophisticated means of getting accurate numbers for facts

SS does have a lot of sophisticated technology. Remember Mayuri's lab in the Research and Development department? If they have supercomputers that can monitor the entire SS and human world, having a thermometer shouldn't be a problem.

Also that's pretty much like saying, how do aliens in DBZ know how to communicate? From where did they learn English? This kind of logic doesn't work in fiction as author's hardly care about each and every minor detail.

The number was put there for a reason, because the author himself wanted to imply that its that hot.

and it seems very overblown since no other Bleach character has demonstrated life-wiping capabilities thus far in the series.

Not really, since Yama is a top tier and so far above the rest of his verse. In shikai alone, he was stronger than ALL the Espada combined, many of who were individually City+ or higher.

In Bankai, being a lifewiper/country level isn't too far fetched.

I interpreted that to be more a summarization of what was presented within the series, especially with Cell appearing to get cocky in his boast when he wanted to challenge SSJ2 Gohan's power after getting his Zenkai.

That's possible. However there are some arguments about Frieza being Star level, so its still a likely possiblity.

Post by Dream (7,902 posts) See mini bio Level 21
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@Aamir: I'll hold off on believing foolishly in the temperature hype until someone else demonstrates said life-wiping level feats. -_-

As for Frieza, I wouldn't hold hold my breath on believing he's star level considering he still had to exert some level of effort in both his first and final forms at charging up his Death Ball attacks and said attacks involved destroying the cores of whatever planets he sought to destroy. Compare that to Kid Buu whose small ki ball attack which he didn't have to charge up caused Goku and Vegeta enough concern where they countered with their own attack and realized they were screwed at countering a larger attack that Buu was charging up.

Post by phantomrant (1,404 posts) See mini bio Level 10

Character statements should always be taken into consideration and accepted, unless there is some misinterpretation, contradicting logic, or alternate reasons for why the character stated it.

@Dream said:

-Itachi's Amaterasu and Yamamoto's zankpatou generating flames as hot as the sun. (Naruto/ Bleach)

-Cell capable of destroying a solar system with a ki blast (Dragon Ball Z).

-Aizen's big Black Coffin on Dangai Ichigo capable of tearing through space and time. (Bleach)

-Claims of Yuyu Hakusho characters being planet-busters.

The Amaterasu example is obviously incorrect and considered nothing more than hyperbole because of lack of feats.

Yamamoto's Zanka no Tachi should be accepted, because not only was a specific number of the temperature given (central stellar temperature), but a rough picture of how hot his reiatsu armor was also given (precisely, he described himself to be the embodiment of the Sun). Even Haschwalth acknowledged the ridiculousness of such temperature, but came to accept it. It's not hyperbole, no bluffing, no overconfidence or arrogance, or misinterpretation here.

Cell's statement that he can blow away the solar system can go either way. Perhaps it's hyperbolic, because Cell was so overconfident and arrogant at that point. Also lack of feats from Cell himself and from people who are way stronger than him (Kid Buu only being able to bust a planet). The only plausible star busting incident in-canon is from Bills.

Kurohitsuji can go either way, for the same reason why Cell's statement is considered hyperbole. At this point, Butterflyaizen was making so many misperceptions and incorrect statements that it's hard to take him seriously. Doesn't really matter, as Dangai Ichigo could have broken it before it fully formed or his reiatsu was able to resist whatever magical effect the Kido induced (which is why the shit is considered unquantifiable).

Planet-busting YYH is contradicted by lack of feats. Possible misinterpretation too.

Post by Son_Wukong (221 posts) See mini bio Level 7

@Dream said:

@Aamir: I'll hold off on believing foolishly in the temperature hype until someone else demonstrates said life-wiping level feats. -_-

As for Frieza, I wouldn't hold hold my breath on believing he's star level considering he still had to exert some level of effort in both his first and final forms at charging up his Death Ball attacks and said attacks involved destroying the cores of whatever planets he sought to destroy. Compare that to Kid Buu whose small ki ball attack which he didn't have to charge up caused Goku and Vegeta enough concern where they countered with their own attack and realized they were screwed at countering a larger attack that Buu was charging up.

Freeza using less than 1% of his power destroyed planet Vegeta (a planet with 10X Earth's gravity) casually with 1 finger.

Also there was no hint of Freeza destroying Vegeta's core, if he did it would've taken minutes for the planet to explode which would've been ample time for all the inhabitants to escape on space ships.

He straight up one shotted Vegeta, no PIS core busting involved.

Post by Dream (7,902 posts) See mini bio Level 21
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@Son_Wukong: He still had to charge up the attack before unleashing it on Vegeta.

And minutes before its destruction? Not likely. I'm guessing you are basing this on when Frieza's Death Ball failed to destroy the planet immediately after he destroyed Namek's core, which he admitted to having held back too much power to destroy it right away. Enough explosive output from a ki attack would flat out destroy the planet in a matter of seconds after said planet gets core-busted.

As for what has me convinced he cores busts to destroy a planet...

Example 1: The Death Ball he unleashes on Vegeta burrows a large hole into the planet's surface as it makes its way towards the core.

Example 2: The same method is done again in Frieza's final form when he uses the attack to destroy Old Namek.

Example 3: Attempts the same method to destroy Earth during his battle with SSJ Future Trunks (starts around 8:15ish)

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