Neon Genesis Evangelion

I didn't like 1.0 for the same reasons you listed but I do like 2.0. If this was his fifth remake maybe I'd be bummed that Anno wasn't doing something totally new, but it isn't and I love the idea of remixing the old series. As a fan of Eva, I don't know what else they could do to interest me with the story than shake it all up and see what happens.

We already know Rebuild is a 4 (correct me if I'm wrong) part movie with both plot points and characterizations wildly diverging starting in the middle of 2.0.  If you didn't know, now you do.  And if you think its been a giant retread, rewatch the original show and get some context.  
 
You are entirely mistaken if you believe End of Eva was a reimagining of an unrestricted Evangelion story.  End of Eva (more an OVA in length than a feature film I should add), was reproducing the final two episodes of the original series.  It replaced the large chunks of time spent inside Shinji's psyche with events within Nerve that the original hinted at with still frames, but never made clear.  But we also already know the second half of Evangelion was already heavily influenced by Anno's own depression, only fueled further by fan outrage to certain events in the show at the same time.  Damning humanity to a sea of LCL may have been the plot finally Anno may have wanted to move towards back then, but to say that it is what he always wanted is a stretch.  We have no evidence for it one way or another.
 
If you tell me you already know how this story will end and what scenarios will present itself, thus your disinterest, I'll be happy to call you a liar.

I wouldnt call mari asuka part two she hasnt been as emotional as asuka..yet. to me mari is all kick ass which is in part how asuka is but she is there strictly for buisness. i wanna know more of her back story though. I actually like her and im very interested in seeing where she plays out in these new films. BTW I LOVED BOTH THE FILMS. im pretty sure im gonna love all of them. and thats coming from a fan of the original!

@Turambar: 1.0 is undeniably, largely a retread. 2.0 isn't. My point isn't whether or not the story will change or if i can predict it, it's WHY IS THIS BEING MADE. wouldn't you, as a fan of Anno's work and the original series, like to see him do something new instead of going over his old work again?

Also End of Evangelion is 87 minutes. That's feature length animation, buddy. It may have been put together to possibly fit into the ending in the show but there's no question that it offers a different ending than the one presented in the series. I happen to like both the series and End of Eva.

Bottom line for me is if you love Eva then accept it as it is and let it stand on its own. If Hideaki Anno has moved into a new emotional state and wants to make a different kind of story, thats great! Go for it. But why can't it be something he hasn't done before? same question for you, @sickVisionz and @jj_jackson

@AlexEL: I'm just not like that. It is what it is. Some people say things should stop in their prime. I say screw that, run it into the ground until it's crap. I'd rather get another season of good, another of ok, and two of, "only series fans would like this" than zero more. Some people say things ruin the legacy of stuff, I say that's for the birds. The original still exists so who cares?

There's a Jay-Z song that sums up the type of consumer I am: "You're Only a Customer". That's my relationship. Producers make content that I want to buy and I as a consumer will consume it. If it sucks, we'll go our separate ways. If it's good, then congrats, you've got a purchase from me. But that's it. All I can hope for is that producers produce things that I like. As long as they do that, I can't complain. It's not like they're producing stuff I don't like.

I think you're more of an Anno fan than I am. I'm an Evangelion fan so I'm happy to get new Evangelion content. As an Anno fan, maybe you want to him to have the creative license and freedom to take on whatever he wants... as long as he never wants to do anything related to Evangelion again. If that's what he wants, then he's wrong and wasting his time. I don't care though. I'm only a customer. A customer who likes Evangelion. He's giving me more good Evangelion content so why would I be upset at this?

@Turambar: Sorta seems like you're trolling here. @AlexEL cites plenty of experience with the original series to fulfill any criteria of "context" that you're looking for. As for your snarky information about the REBUILD mission statement, he also covers that in the article. Might be you that needs some context here. Read before commenting angrily, please.

Like Alex said, END OF EVANGELION is a feature length film. DEATH and REBIRTH were each OVA length, but one was just a series summary and the other was the first portion of EOE. Could be you're a bit mixed up here, or perhaps it's just been awhile since you've watched them. And while EOE did take the series ending and present it from a different perspective, it was still reframing what already occurred in canon. At the time it was meant to stand as the definitive ending to the series and it did an exemplary job (though like Alex, I still have a soft spot for the original Instrumentality ending in NGE).

What Alex is suggesting is that, at a certain point, the REBUILD films will likely deviate so far from what made NGE what it is that, with a few tweaks, the concepts and characters could have been a brand new story not built on the frame of an existing work. Being free of the constraints of something preexisting could have allowed Anno to do even more with the story.

Put another way: Alex and I have a comic book out called AWAKENING (I write, he draws, we're awesome). That series had a beginning, middle, and a very definitive (no room for sequels) ending. Now he and I are working on something new. What Anno has done with REBUILD would be akin to us going back into that completed book and deciding to start it over and take it in a new direction with the same set-up and cast and then lead them down a few new paths. Why not just tell a new story then?

It'd be one thing if NGE or our book had been open-ended but neither were. As a writer I'm not sure I'd even be comfortable taking the same boilerplate and reusing it to convey a different story. I've actually considered it once or twice (largely because it was my first book and there's so much I see that could be fixed now), but there's something disingenuous about it that makes me uncomfortable going down that road with my own work. No, it's way better to move forward, take what you learn, and create something new.

As a huge EVANGELION nerd though, I find myself oddly enraptured by the REBUILD films, sort of like what @sickVisionz is saying. I'm a fan of the property, the films are beautifully animated, and it is at least presenting a new set of events and character dilemmas from the end of 1.0 forward. I might not support Anno's choice to make them rather than something new, but they don't put me off either. The superfan in me enjoys them to no end, even if I don't necessarily agree with them as a creator. But given the choice, I'd have taken new Anno over EVANGELION retread for sure.

@AlexEL said:

@Turambar: 1.0 is undeniably, largely a retread. 2.0 isn't. My point isn't whether or not the story will change or if i can predict it, it's WHY IS THIS BEING MADE. wouldn't you, as a fan of Anno's work and the original series, like to see him do something new instead of going over his old work again?

Indeed I would like to see new work, and I consider Rebuild very much, new work.  We can argue all we would like over whether this is really Rebuild of Anno's Wallet, but I consider the changes in characterization and plot direction new work. 
 
Start completely anew?  No reason he can't.  But why does he have to?  If he feels his existing works are ripe for reexamination, why is he obligated not to do that?
 

@NickTapalansky

said:

@Turambar: Sorta seems like you're trolling here. @AlexEL cites plenty of experience with the original series to fulfill any criteria of "context" that you're looking for. As for your snarky information about the REBUILD mission statement, he also covers that in the article. Might be you that needs some context here. Read before commenting angrily, please.

What Alex is suggesting is that, at a certain point, the REBUILD films will likely deviate so far from what made NGE what it is that, with a few tweaks, the concepts and characters could have been a brand new story not built on the frame of an existing work. Being free of the constraints of something preexisting could have allowed Anno to do even more with the story.

It'd be one thing if NGE or our book had been open-ended but neither were. As a writer I'm not sure I'd even be comfortable taking the same boilerplate and reusing it to convey a different story. I've actually considered it once or twice (largely because it was my first book and there's so much I see that could be fixed now), but there's something disingenuous about it that makes me uncomfortable going down that road with my own work. No, it's way better to move forward, take what you learn, and create something new.

As a huge EVANGELION nerd though, I find myself oddly enraptured by the REBUILD films, sort of like what @sickVisionz is saying. I'm a fan of the property, the films are beautifully animated, and it is at least presenting a new set of events and character dilemmas from the end of 1.0 forward. I might not support Anno's choice to make them rather than something new, but they don't put me off either. The superfan in me enjoys them to no end, even if I don't necessarily agree with them as a creator. But given the choice, I'd have taken new Anno over EVANGELION retread for sure.

Troll?  Not in my character.  I understand his points quite well.  And I very much disagree.   
 
There is a degree of sameness here.  It's in the setting and in the mythology that launches the story.  That I do not contend.  But if you are suggesting different destinations through different paths are rendered less relevant because of the same starting place, then I also very much disagree.

@AlexEL: Im going ot have to go with sickvisonz im just happy to see more content in eva is being made period. Ok maybe you may not be a big fan of remakes with nothing really new but animation but its been years since ive seen this series and when i did watch 1.0 it bought back some of those same feelings i once had. Its the same with FMA brotherhood for me, i was just super excited to see the characters again, for them to be in different situations for another outcome its all exciting. Since i know the anime community everyone will compare the ending to these eva films to the original but im not like that. I still accept evangelion for what it was and its beauty and sophistication and nothing will take that away but having a new take on it isnt all that bad.

I mean when it boils down toit shouldnt everyone just be excited that they even did this project? whether youlike it or hate it, its more eva for everyone. When they first annoucned these remakes it wasnt a -why?! - for me. It was a -Hell yea more eva!- and i mean its not like they are doing a bad job with these films they are impressive to say the least.. i would love to see a new series from the guy..but until then can we pay homage to one of our fav animes with these new films??..

@Turambar said:

Start completely anew? No reason he can't. But why does he have to? If he feels his existing works are ripe for reexamination, why is he obligated not to do that?

Anno isn't obligated to do anything, be it creating a new series or reexamining his old work. An artist doesn't have any obligation to fans - their only obligation is to themselves. The second they think otherwise is when they start creating what people want to see rather than what they want to, or need to create.

What's being said in this column isn't that Anno obligated to do anything but, rather, that his choice appears to be topsy-turvy in that regard. It's like he was afraid a new story presenting new characters in new situations might not be as instantly well received.

Just look right here at @jj_jackson, who was over the moon when these films were announced, sight unseen. Or someone like @sickVisionz who's happy to keep buying EVANGELION (as he says in his reply to @AlexEL "I think you're more of an Anno fan than I am. I'm an Evangelion fan so I'm happy to get new Evangelion content"). Would either have been AS excited or ready to drop their money on a brand new series? No, because while they may appreciate Anno, they're EVANGELION fans first. There's nothing wrong with that for them, but for Anno to cater to them first rather than himself is a disservice to his own artistic integrity.

These REBUILD stories could have stood on their own as a new franchise of some kind, grown beyond the constraints of pre-existing lore, but instead they're restrained in at least as much as the already existing cast and storylines dictate, no matter how much they eventually deviate.

But who can blame Anno for being gun shy? Can you name any of the live-action features he worked on post-EVANGELION? Have you heard of them outside of Wikipedia? If I hadn't been looking for them over the years, I sure wouldn't have. And right around the time he found himself struggling creatively, obscured by the success of the series that made him so popular in the 90's, he founded Studio Khara and began work on the REBUILD OF EVANGELION films. That doesn't scream confidence or a belief that his work needed to be reexamined. It screams that he missed being popular.

And I say all this as a fan of the new movies. I'm as big an EVANGELION fan as @jj_jackson, @sickVisionz, and from the sound of it, yourself. I watched and rewatched the series until my old, Chinatown fansubs broke back in '96. It's inspired my work as a writer and I often cite it as an unmissable series to anyone interested in storytelling, not just anime. The new movies are fun for me for nostalgia, the opportunity to revisit a world that so fundamentally impacted my formative years, and the beautiful new animation.

But I would have been just as happy, if not more, to see Khara simply condense and reanimate the original series while Anno took these new ideas and explored them uninhibited. That would have satisfied me both as an EVANGELION fan and an Anno fan.

@NickTapalansky said:

But I would have been just as happy, if not more, to see Khara simply condense and reanimate the original series while Anno took these new ideas and explored them uninhibited.

The first half of that would have disappointed me to no end. I think all of those anime movies that are just a rehash of the series are a complete waste of time. It's Eva so I still would have watched them, but I'd be moaning and complaining about how they didn't do a sequel or a remake or why they didn't just remaster the old episodes for a BD release. At that point I would have been like you and preferred to see something totally new, but that's not how I think of the Rebuild movies. They are new stories, characters, and ideas set in a world I already love.

I absolutely loved Evangelion as a high school student. My friend had 2 tapes of it he recorded from rental VHS copies, and he lent them to me during the school week. We only had one VCR with the main TV in the living room, and my mom hated anime, so I would watch the series late at night, or really early in the morning before school. I was riveted...everything...the writing was great, the characters compelling, and funny, the action was COOL and INTENSE...the editing was even great...the sound design...the complete package. I would discuss the eps with friends, and go with them to buy soundtracks, posters and Eva model kits and toys. I couldn't afford the tapes, but I bought the comics adaptation by Sadamoto from my LCS in issue form, then the deluxe unflopped collected editions, and then the new reprints with updated designs. I borrowed the officail subtitled VHS tapes when my other friend started buying those, THEN re watched the series again when the dvds were released. We searched out for fansubbed/import copies of death and rebirth, and end of evagelion too (this was before they were licensed here)...and found really crappy versions and watched them with glee. After Eva I sought out more Gainax stuff, Otaku No Video, FLCL, His and Her circumstances, and Wings of Honneamise. Eva has provided me with endless hours of entertainment, discussion and was basically a gateway to more anime and Art that stay with me till this day.

After all that, however, I gotta say when I heard of these new movies I felt kind of puzzled...even, irrationally, a little betrayed. I had watched my Evagelion. I had taken a journey with these characters, and even though I was unhappy with their fates ( especially Asuka's..and I guess everyone's in End of Evangelion, Toji's in the original series etc.) it was a great run. I personally did not have the urge to return to this world...to me it was kind of like flogging a dead Unit 01 horse. Eva seems to be Gainax's legacy, and if new Eva is what they feel they need to do or want to do, go for it! But I felt a little let down by it, just one man's opinion. It'll all be worth it if it prompts someone to say...hey this rules! What else did these guys do??? And gets them to buy some Otaku No Video or Wings of Honneamise.

@NickTapalansky said:

@Turambar said:

Start completely anew? No reason he can't. But why does he have to? If he feels his existing works are ripe for reexamination, why is he obligated not to do that?

Anno isn't obligated to do anything, be it creating a new series or reexamining his old work. An artist doesn't have any obligation to fans - their only obligation is to themselves. The second they think otherwise is when they start creating what people want to see rather than what they want to, or need to create.

What's being said in this column isn't that Anno obligated to do anything but, rather, that his choice appears to be topsy-turvy in that regard. It's like he was afraid a new story presenting new characters in new situations might not be as instantly well received.

I hope the self contradiction there does not go unnoticed by you. Anno should not feel obligation to shape his works for the sake of his audience, but his end work should be altered so as to be more appetizing for the author, a member within the audience? "He should be willing to be independent and produce a work that abides by the guidelines I just laied out" is a rather absurd statement is it not?

Look, we're all basically going around in circles here claiming knowledge of Anno's motivations (you, me, the author), something inherently disingenuous because we don't know the guy. For that entire remainder of your post, is it anything more than mere speculation on your part? Lacking sources that can be attributed to Anno himself, that is all it can be.

Bottom line, critique the work. Critiquing the motivations of the creator is a fools errand.

@sickVisionz said:

They are new stories, characters, and ideas set in a world I already love.

That's where we'll have to agree to disagree, my friend. They're not new stories or characters - they're mostly old characters and story points, repurposed to suit different ideas and set in a world you already know and saw through to two different iterations of its conclusion. Like you said though, as an EVANGELION fan that's totally fine.

@Turambar said:

"He should be willing to be independent and produce a work that abides by the guidelines I just laied out" is a rather absurd statement is it not?

It is, absolutely, an absurd statement. It's also not one that anyone here has made. @AlexEL never suggested any guidelines that Anno should follow in creating his work. What he expressed, as a working artist himself, was disappointment that Anno, in his opinion, didn't take his new ideas and treat them as such. Instead he opted to take these new concepts and graft them onto a preexisting skeleton.

@Turambar said:

For that entire remainder of your post, is it anything more than mere speculation on your part? Lacking sources that can be attributed to Anno himself, that is all it can be.

Sure, it's speculation based on the stated facts - his other creative endeavors never reached the heights of EVANGELION and few, if any, were known outside of Japan (and didn't even do so well there in some cases).

But you're glossing over my point and the point of the original article: regardless of his motivation, choosing to apply these new ideas to a preexisting and previously completed work was, artistically, the safe choice. Those of us who're suggesting Anno should have created something new with those ideas outside of EVANGELION are disappointed that he didn't make a bolder, more gutsy move by not relying on a franchise that's already been a worldwide success.

@Turambar said:

Bottom line, critique the work. Critiquing the motivations of the creator is a fools errand.

I can agree with that, but it's certainly valid to critique the work by saying it would have been better served to develop it further and present it as a new property. And it's an equally valid critique to suggest that if it isn't different enough from NGE to stand on its own as brand new property, then perhaps it didn't need to exist in the first place. Keep in mind that a critique is just an opinion, and those are mine/ours.

The thing is, I think those of us who are on the pro-Anno side here are looking at things very differently from those who are pro-EVANGELION. The pro-Anno argument is centered on the artistic risks and, ultimately gains, that were avoided and lost respectively by his choosing to not create a new set of films or series to really allow these new ideas to shine. The pro-EVANGELION side is focused on defending the REBUILD films and Anno's right to make them.

The thing is, nobody is arguing against the pro-EVANGELION side. All we pro-Anno folks are saying is that we wish he had made a different choice, one we view as far riskier and, therefore, far more rewarding if successful.

We're not saying that he didn't have the right to go the route he did, or even that the movies are bad. Just that we would have liked to see an artist we respect so much, who had such an impact on us, take a bigger chance and, potentially, bring us something just as revolutionary as EVANGELION was 17 years ago.

@NickTapalansky said:

...we'll have to agree to disagree...

Indeed

@Turambar: Listen man, I'm saying that Anno can make whatever he wants but I'm not really into him choosing to go backwards in his career. The Eva rebuilds can never be as important/revolutionary/surprising as EVANGELION was the first time around, and honestly i think they are worse because of that. So yes, I am critiquing the work. I'm not trying to bully the guy into doing what i say. It shouldn't surprise anyone that i do not have any sway over Hideaki Anno's decisions.

You're right that @NickTapalansky and I can't know exactly what Anno's motivations were, but there's no DANGER in speculating. In fact, thats my job in this particular case. In evaluating art, it often makes sense to take the artist into consideration. Simple as that. I don't hate the guy or think he should be locked up for crimes against anime. The choice to move forward or fixate on old work is something every artist has to deal with.

I can't argue with @sickVisionz or @jj_jackson 's point of view. If you still like this stuff then watch it, by all means. I happen to feel a bit let down by it, and by Anno. @EamonBDoc makes a good point about these movies possibly leading new audiences to Gainax's other work, however!

@AlexEL said:

I can't argue with @sickVisionz or @jj_jackson 's point of view. If you still like this stuff then watch it, by all means. I happen to feel a bit let down by it, and by Anno. @EamonBDoc makes a good point about these movies possibly leading new audiences to Gainax's other work, however!

Simple disappointment with the show for not meeting personal expectations is not something I take issue with.  I disagree with your opinion, but that's about as far as it goes.  
 
It's this line that I take greater issue with.

@Turambar: 1.0 is undeniably, largely a retread. 2.0 isn't. My point isn't whether or not the story will change or if i can predict it, it's WHY IS THIS BEING MADE. wouldn't you, as a fan of Anno's work and the original series, like to see him do something new instead of going over his old work again?

Because the implication of that question, to me, is that the value of an original work from Anno should be inherently greater than the reexaminations of his prior works to any fan of Anno, and by extension, a dictation of what Anno should do if he wishes to please fans.  If that was not your intention, then I'll drop it with an apology.
 
On the topic of the speculations from both you and @NickTapalansky, I approach the subject not as an artist, but as a historian, as that is my field of expertise.  For me, study of any historical figure that draws on speculation instead of sources attributed to the figure or someone close to him or her speaks far more of your own personal opinions and biases, and little of the actual subject at hand.  Tell me about Anno, or his works, not yourself.  That's of course a contention for another time and place.

http://analoghousou.com/2012/11/24/the-story-thus-far-evangelion-jo-and-ha/

Interesting further reading about the 2 films at the link above.