What the F@#$ Did I Just Watch?! EVANGELION Episode #24

Topic started by No_name_here on May 14, 2010. Last post by Fabe 4 years, 1 month ago.
Post by No_name_here (854 posts) See mini bio Level 11
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 That was pretty cool how there was a starfield in the lowest level, too.
 That was pretty cool how there was a starfield in the lowest level, too.

“I DON’T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU’RE SAYING!!!”

Shinji’s speaking for a lot of us when he shrieks that to Kaworu, or whatever his name is. I give credit to whoever dubbed this for finding the CREEPIEST voice actor to play him. Ooooo…   even if he wasn’t so aggressive in coming on to Shinji (this kid’s a panther) that high-pitched monotone of his was just unnerving.  And I don’t think my imagination can even comprehend the amount of yaoi fan-art that’s probably arisen out of this specific episode.

I was taken out of the experience a little, once again, by the music choice, here. “Ode to Joy” has probably even more familiarity to Western ears than “Messiah.”  Gaff will disagree with me, I know, but I kind of wished they’d used an original score, or maybe even just lesser-known segments on the piece.

So Ritsuko’s been hooking up with Commander Gendo, huh? I definitely didn’t call that one. Guess that makes him something of a stealth player? You look at this frumpy authoritarian stiff and have no idea how much game the man can spin. Seriously, Kage’s presented as the ladies’ man, but it’s Gendo who’s really getting all the action. I wonder if Ritsuko knows about his affair with her mother. If she did, would she be skeeved out? Then again, seeing as how messed up everybody in the show is, she might even find that exciting. Gross…

I suppose this adds a little more depth to her statement about not wanting children earlier. Maybe she viewed the clone Rei’s as her kids? Maybe not.  She seemed pretty gung-ho about destroying them.

There’s only two more episodes left to wrap this all up. I’m starting to remember what my friend, a psych-major who was an enormous fan of the show, told me a couple years ago about the ending. How it doesn’t actually wrap up the plot, per see - - it just “resolves the characters”, then lets you infer what happened. Then again, there’s such a labyrinth of re-dos and director’s cut ahead of me after this collection I have, I suppose I’ll be getting an ending in installments.

By the way, I’m sorry but, knowing what I know, I had to laugh at that exceptionally-long take of Shinji’s Eva holding the creep angel child. It was literally one animation cel held on screen for what had to have been more than a full minute. Yeah, that’s got a lot to do with Shinji’s Hamlet-esque “dramatic delay”, but I’m sure it had  a lot more to do with the budget cutbacks. It was almost like Gainax literally ran out of all their money at the exact point.

Actually, speaking of which… at what point did the director of this suffer a nervous breakdown?I'm curious.

-- Tom Pinchuk is the writer of UNIMAGINABLE for Arcana Studios and HYBRID BASTARDS! for Archaia. Pre-order the HYBRID BASTARDS! hardcover now on Amazon.com.

Post by Dream (7,107 posts) See mini bio Level 20
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The nervous breakdown was 3-4 years earlier after Anno completed doing directing for an earlier Gainax work called Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water. Supposedly, Anno took up interest in researching different psychological conditions and he made the series as an exploration of these elements with all the angst that the major characters go through (especially with Asuka, Shinji and Misato).
Post by FoxxFireArt (2,638 posts) See mini bio Level 25
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The whole Ritsuko and Gendo affair really was a wild one, wasn't it? She literally followed in her mother's footsteps that led into Gendo's bed. That's several layers of creepy. Even then, he was only just using their bodies. There are self esteem issues all around.
 
I'm of the mind that the young Rei that was strangled was killed. They just activated a new one. The same with what happened to other Reis. They died and they pulled out the spare. I've often thought that Rei is actually more of a hybrid of Shinji's mother, Yui; and Angel DNA. 
 
I told you about my Misato theory. How she has issues with differentiating emotional and physical comfort. She almost put the moves on Shinji to try and comfort him over the "death" of Rei. Though she was probably also looking for comfort as well over the death of Kaji. That's just my theory though. There was something about the guilt in her voice as she apologized when he pulled away.
 
One of the major reasons I never got around to buying the box set of this series. Is because there were just so many different ones that I had no idea which to get.
Post by rhkaloge (3 posts) See mini bio Level 2
As I've been reading this, I'm having an existential crisis, cause I was CERTAIN I'd seen Eva, but good god, I don't remember any of this.  Did I block it out, or just get so lost I missed it all?  Or was my brain altered while I slept?  Creepy...
Post by j_zero (3 posts) See mini bio Level 4
When I finally got the whole series, I got the Platinum collection...I think there was some super-expensive later, but I'm not sure...well, with ADV gone, maybe Funimation will grab the series or something. 
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
The thing you have to realize about Kaworu, is that he's Seele's version of Rei.  Indeed, he is the male equivalent of Rei.  While obviously Gainax was making fun of "bishounen" tropes (and yes, there's a mountain of yaoi fanart from this), Kaworu is Asexual; as Asexual as Rei is.  
 
 

"It was almost like Gainax literally ran out of all their money at the exact point."


Actually, as you will see next episode, they ran COMPLETELY out of money.  I strongly urge you to watch the Director's Cuts first, then watch the TV ending then the movie ending (End of Evangelion) all in one sitting.  They ran *completely* out of money.  The TV ending was NEVER the intended ending.  
 
Ask yourself when watching the TV ending:  "does this resolve running plotlines that we know were in motion?" (i.e. how they mention "we're starting to make Mass Production Evangelions" - that isn't followed up on in the TV ending)
 
Ritsuko:  Yes.  Ritsuko has been having sex with Gendo since arguably before the first episode.  What's creepy is when you rewatch the series, and see things like back in episode 5 when Ritsuko is having dinner with Misato and Shinji, then leaves, and you realize "she's probably going to have sex with Gendo now".  I think Ritsuko said she didn't want to be a mother back in episode 13.
 
Why...of course Ritsuko knows that her own mother, Naoko, was sleeping with Gendo:  remember when Gendo and Naoko are kissing in episode 21, and then the camera pulls back and we see that from afar, Ritsuko saw the whole thing?
 
****As for the Kaworu voice:  I see you were very impressed with his original English dub voice; that's what he's supposed to sound like.  Creepy, ethereal, and threatening....vaguely reminiscent of Rei, but oddly more in command of his emotions.
 
 
***When you watch the Director's Cut version of this episode, which recast Kaworu with Greg Ayres...well I'd like to hear your thoughts:  Ayres' Kaworu was godawful, to the point that I warn people about it.  This was dubbed in 1997, but the Director's Cuts were dubbed in 2004...7 years later, after Greg Ayres was already a personal fan of the series.
 
The Greg Ayres Director's Cut Kaworu is....like listening to a bad "Evangelion Abridged" parody series off youtube;  he sounds like "Greg Ayres" - his usual 8 year old voice, not a teenager; and on top of that he adds in a sexual undertone which was simply not present in the original.
 
Problem is that Greg Ayres now goes around from convention to convention proclaiming "Kaworu was one of my top 3 roles ever!"...and really it wasn't.
 
FUNimation sure didn't think so:  they didn't cast him as Kaworu again in Rebuild of Evangelion, instead reducing him to Kensuke.
Post by constanzadellarosa (234 posts) See mini bio Level 15
Oh, the infamous Kaworu dub. That's the reason why part of the Latin American fandom thought (and some still do) that Kaworu was gay.
Post by Gaff (213 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@Dream said:
" The nervous breakdown was 3-4 years earlier after Anno completed doing directing for an earlier Gainax work called Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water. Supposedly, Anno took up interest in researching different psychological conditions and he made the series as an exploration of these elements with all the angst that the major characters go through (especially with Asuka, Shinji and Misato). "
Something... interesting crops up in the final two episodes which is related to this, but I'll spare it for the huge discussion after Tom's finished. 
 
Also, woohoo! Name check! 
 
@Tom Well, there's a reason why people call Eva the first post-modern anime ;)

On the over-long, dramatic pause between Kaworu and EVA-01: I think they were going for a repeat of the infamous elevator scene earlier in the series, but it indeed falls completely flat. Either that or they completely misjudged the time Ode to Joy takes to reach its crescendo. While I think ("hope" might be a better word) the plot was actually fairly well thought out even after Episode 16, the actual writing was done "on-the-fly", according to some interviews. 
 
Also, I hope you're planning to watch 25/26 in one sitting, Tom? The two episode kind of require back-to-back viewing.
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
@Gaff:   its actually a rejection of post-modernism; it confronts it but rejects it
Post by No_name_here (854 posts) See mini bio Level 11
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@constanzadellarosa:  I don't know, I was certainly getting that vibe from the version I watched.  The kid wants to jump in the shower and in bed with Shinji....
Post by Gaff (213 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@ReVolutionOfEvangelion: Opinions differ. 
 
I'll probably write something up, when Tom finishes. Probably something along the line "Evangelion is more interesting than the actual mythology as portrayed in the series". Something meta, something.... horribly postmodern.
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
What Shinji's exact feelings about Kaworu are is debatable, but Kaworu isn't human and has no real concept of sex; its more along the lines of innocent misunderstanding that Data on Star Trek might have;  I'm trying not to be spoilerly, but the Director's Cut explains Kaworu's nature/origin a bit more...again, he's the counterpart to Rei....
 
...what "mythology"?
 
Not really postmodern;  "Evangelion" is a social commentary on 1990's Japan, wrapped in a deconstruction of the Giant Robot genre.
Post by ethan (887 posts) See mini bio Level 15
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@Gaff said:
" @ReVolutionOfEvangelion: Opinions differ.  I'll probably write something up, when Tom finishes. Probably something along the line "Evangelion is more interesting than the actual mythology as portrayed in the series". Something meta, something.... horribly postmodern. "
Let us know, we might post it up here on the animevice.com/news page. 
 
@ReVolutionOfEvangelion: You might also want to try submitting an article on the series.  
Post by mediaright (75 posts) See mini bio Level 5
@ReVolutionOfEvangelion: @ReVolutionOfEvangelion said:
""Evangelion" is a social commentary on 1990's Japan, wrapped in a deconstruction of the Giant Robot genre. "
So then what does that make Gurren Lagann? A social commentary on 2000's Japan, wrapped in a deconstruction of manliness?
Post by Gaff (213 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@ReVolutionOfEvangelion: Using and subverting the usual tropes of Giant Robot anime to say something about the human condition? Sounds postmodern to me. 
 
 "Evangelion is like a puzzle, you know. Any person can see it and give his/her own answer. In other words, we're offering viewers to think by themselves, so that each person can imagine his/her own world. We will never offer the answers, even in the theatrical version. As for many Evangelion viewers, they may expect us to provide the 'all-about Eva' manuals, but there is no such thing. Don't expect to get answers by someone. Don't expect to be catered to all the time. We all have to find our own answers."  
Hideaki Anno 
  
@mediaright:  I think Gurren Lagann is a lot more straight forward than people may think: less meta and more "ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER!". 
 
@ethan:
 Oh god, I need to watch Eva again, don't I? I need to refresh those 10+ year old memories! I hope you can live with the guilt! ;)
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
@ethan:   my fansite is making a series of analysis videos ("the extras that should have been in the DVD but never were") fan-made, and posting them up in a few weeks.  I do plan to mail links to them as "news" to AnimeVice....
 
@Gaff:  No.  The post-modern hacks have warped and distorted that Hideaki Anno qutoe for too long.  Anno's entire idea was that he didn't want to "walk fans through it by the hand"....but there is a clear difference between "You're supposed to find the answers on your own without me spelling it out, otherwise you'll never learn" and "there are no actual answers other than what you make up"
 
Anno meant that we had to "find our own answers" in the sense of "use your brain for once", he never says "there are no answers".
 
@Gurren Lagann....TTGL is a reaction to "the post-Eva period" when every hack writer started ripping off Eva, making dozens if not hundreds of shows about characters lost in their own depression, not really "Getting" the message of Eva.  So it was like a reaction to the reaction of the reaction;  saying "screw this maudlin stuff, feel self-empowered"
 
It is difficult for a non-Japanese person to understand TTGL, that it isn't as straightforward as it seems but it a defiant re-embrace of meaning; consider, even Alan Moore, creator of "Watchmen" which deconstructed superheroes....then devoted the remake of the Marvelman to embracing the Superman mythos, fully genre aware.  TTGL is Marvelman.  
Post by ethan (887 posts) See mini bio Level 15
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@ReVolutionOfEvangelion: Yeah not the same thing, we're not interested in just posting links to another site, or posting video from another site.  But a well written member article is what we're looking for.
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,711 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@Tom_Pinchuk:
Anno had mental issues some years before Eva, though it continued to inspire and influence him all throughout Evangelion.  
For Kawaru the original Kyle Sturdivant version is his best voice in english, it is far superior to the Greg Ayers Directors Cut version, who in my opinion sounds like a toddler playing on a school playground, and not at all like how Kawaru should sound. So personally in this episode I am torn as to recommend the DC or original, all I can say for sure is Kawaru is better in the original. 
 
Now I will say this for the Kawaru debate, as an angel he has no sexual orientation, and the relationship he has with Shinji is purely platonic. In fact it is something of a paternal, father-son deal ("you betrayed me, just like my father did"), similar to Shinji's Freudian maternal relationship with Rei.  
 
Now this episode is regarded as one of the most important for Shinji's character development, although isolated, lonely and somewhat emo, I still fail to see how Kawaru has such a big impact on Shinji. Sure Shinji is desperate for friendship after the tough times hes gone through, but come on Kawaru has like ten minutes of screen time in a 26 episode series, there's no way he should mean more to Shinji than say a character like Misato. But definitely Kawaru forces Shinji to make the toughest decision of his life, although if it was me I would have crushed him without a second thought, but again because of Shinji's mental state it was difficult for him. A very interesting interaction comes between Rei and Kawaru when Kawaru suggests him and Rei are alike, and Rei reflects on that (important to note Rei questioning for who's purpose she is alive for). Also very important information about Lilith, Adam, the A.T field, and the white and black moon are revealed in this episode. Gotta love the classical music (Ode to Joy here) played over emotionally tough scenes, certainly a trademark of Eva. 
   
Aside from Kawaru and Shinji we see Asuka finally completely lose it, and sit naked in a bath tub in a destroyed house, lol way to cope. Ritsuko did know about Gendo and her mother, i believe she sees them together in NERV HQ in the flashback episode. And I don't think TTGL can be compared to a masterpiece like NGE. 
 
Now your on to the series ending, congrats on making it this far.
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,711 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@ReVolutionOfEvangelion said:

.  Problem is that Greg Ayres now goes around from convention to convention proclaiming "Kaworu was one of my top 3 roles ever!"...and really it wasn't.  FUNimation sure didn't think so:  they didn't cast him as Kaworu again in Rebuild of Evangelion, instead reducing him to Kensuke. "

I find that hilarious, that Funni had him play Kensuke and not kawaru, shows how everyone knows hes bad. 
Post by Fabe (56 posts) See mini bio Level 6
@hitsusatsu11 said:
" @Tom_Pinchuk:     Aside from Kawaru and Shinji we see Asuka finally completely lose it, and sit naked in a bath tub in a destroyed house, lol way to cope.
I think I remember reading somewhere that Asuka wasn't just siting in a bathtub but had actually cut her wrists in a suicide attempt  thinking since She's no longer a EVA pilot She has no reason to live.  
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