What the F@#$ Did I Just Watch?! EVANGELION Episode #21

Topic started by No_name_here on May 10, 2010. Last post by Kris 4 years, 10 months ago.
Post by No_name_here (871 posts) See mini bio Level 11

 C'mon... you can't kill this guy off!
 C'mon... you can't kill this guy off!

No way! NO WAY! Misato did not kill Kaji!

Whoa… that was a powerful episode ending.  I wasn’t expecting such a dramatic incident to be handled in such an understated way, but that simple scene of Misato receiving the voicemail too late had far more impact (pun intended) than showing her waste him on screen could. I’m hoping that there’s some misdirection going on here, but I’ve got a sinking feeling that this is when things stop going these characters’ way.

Back to the bulk of the episode, I have to say that I felt the same kind of Kubrick-vibe in this flashback/prequel episode that I felt while watching the infamous clip-show recap from a while back. Actually, the vibe in this episode was even more pronounced. There was just a sense of doom lurking throughout, this. 
Since so much happened, I’m thinking I’m going to rattle out my observations in bullet points...

 Though this guy's quickly become one of the most intriguing characters.
 Though this guy's quickly become one of the most intriguing characters.

* So the cat hasn’t been totally let out of the bag, yet, but I’m going to guess that the fallout from the first Eva experiment de-aged Shinji’s mother into Rei.  There have certainly been a lot of clues pointing to that direction. Gendo’s fondness for her, the motherly way she slaps Shinji for badmouthing him and then, well… the strong similarities of their relationship to Freud’s archetypal Oedipal complex. If I'm right, then it makes this all much more gross.

* Actually, that explains Rei’s jealously over Dr. Akagi’s affair with Gendo. By the way, that whole confrontation scene where she keeps calling her an “old hag” had to be the CREEPIEST scene in this entire show.  It’s compounded with that frightening “waking dream” of her strangling the girl and then the understated reveal of her suicide. HAUNTING stuff.

* I’m sure there’s going to be some sinister explanation, but I thought it was oddly progressive for such a stern man like Gendo to take on his wife’s surname.

* I get the impression that  Nerv (or Seele, or however it breaks down) is like some program for wayward children. The revelation that Misato’s been with Nerv since she was a teenager makes it seem like she would’ve been an Eva pilot if she’d been born ten years later. This  episode certainly shows that she’s just as damaged as the rest of them, and that a lot of her behavior can be explained as coping mechanism.
* I was really intrigued by the nature of Tokyo-3's appearance. That was something that'd been bugging me a number of times as it seemed like Eva battles would often spill out of the clouds, when they'd really be underground. I wonder if this has been taken from the "hollow earth" concept that's found in so much occultism?

This is the episode that’s really turned Eva over into really compelling science fiction, for me. I’m a sucker for conspiracies and labyrinthine secrets like this, so I’m having a ball. Even though I really hope Kagi isn’t dead.

-- Tom Pinchuk is the writer of UNIMAGINABLE for Arcana Studios and HYBRID BASTARDS! for Archaia. Pre-order the HYBRID BASTARDS! hardcover now on Amazon.com.

Post by Dream (9,138 posts) See mini bio Level 21
More twists galore await you in the next few episodes, Tom.
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
"My last assignment, its red, like blood" Chilling words by Kaji to start off with. 
Interesting information on Fuyutsuki, we learn about his life as a professor, and how he doesn't place enough value on his relationships with others. Cool to see young Gendo as a tough guy needing to be bailed out of jail. But we quickly learn how everything he does including his meeting Fuyutski is all calculated, the only thing im not sure Gendo carefully planned on is his relationship with Yuy, although it would greatly benefit him in connecting with seele, Gendo did seem to care for Yuy.  
The reaction Fuyutsuki has to the news of Yuy being with Gendo is priceless, and I get the feeling Fuyutsuki was (and is) in love with Yuy. I wonder to if Gendo changing his last name to Ikari is purely a move to get in with seele or if it has some genuine emotion behind it.  
Poor little Misato, seeing such a tragic thing and then going mute. Interesting to note how by the time she is in college she has become so sociable, most likely she has repressed and bottled up painful memories, this (as well as her relationship with her parents) comes into play in her interactions with kaji and shinji.  
We also get to see into Ritsuko's personality and the relationship she had with her mother. Funny how Ritsuko gets lost at HQ, but later gets upset at Misato because she doesn't know her way around. Interesting how Gendo gets with Ritsuko's mom so soon after Yuy's death, and then gets with Ritsuko so soon after her mothers death. Shows his calculating ruthlessness. 
The ending is great, suspense with kaji, then we see the nice phone message left by kaji, shinji not manning up as usual when Misato breaks down. 
Post by FoxxFireArt (2,654 posts) See mini bio Level 25
You really have to admire how they picked just the right moments to keep open to interpretation. Far too often writers and directors feel the need to beat the audience over the head with exposition. 
I'm of the mind as a writer that you don't need to over explain every little detail. Leave some things open.
You can really tell this story was from the era of the answering machine. Now, we have email and instant messages on cell phones. It's really hard to justifiably miss a message from someone. I think that makes writing suspense and drama such as this so much harder then it used to be.
The story of Rei and the fate of  Shinji's mom, Yui, is rather interesting. I'm not going to say whether your theory is right or wrong, but very soon things are going to make more sense. It's one of those times where later you think, "Ohhh, yeah.".
If you enjoy conspiracies. I really think you could get into Code Geass. If you enjoyed V for Vendetta. You have a good chance of liking that series.
Post by sickVisionz (4,332 posts) See mini bio Level 24
This episode, 18, 22 and 23 are the ones that made Eva one of my favorite shows.
Post by Kris (130 posts) See mini bio Level 7
Oh, you're in for quite the ride.  You're off about Rei, though not entirely.  What's REALLY going on at NERV is sick sick SICK.  Seriously disturbing.  
But uh...Misato killed Kaji?  You seem to have watched an entirely different Evangelion than I did, because in my version, she has nothing to do with his death.  That said, his death was pretty upsetting to me.  It's been awhile, but I probably got a little teary eyed at least.   
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@Tom_Pinchuk: Yes a few things you may have misinterpreted, I'll try and help but  won't spoil anything:
Misato killing kaji-Think about the message he leaves and her sad reaction, do you think she would kill him? I think you got the idea from the scene where Misato gets her gun back, then in the next scene Kaji dies, but anyway the point will get (somewhat) clearer 
Rei being deaged Yuy- ahh if only it could be that simple. The true answer involves science, metaphysics and Freud 
Nerv being a wayward home for children- think about how big and ruthless an organization they are, do you think they would care for anyone? The only reason Nerv cares is if they want pawns to help them get what they want. 
@Kris: True but i at least felt he had a somewhat genuine relationship, i mean it seems that is his motivation for later actions. 
Also how do you put in that spoiler tag? 
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
Mr. Pinchuck, please directly respond to this:  This is one of the ONLY mysteries of the series that Hideaki Anno, when pressed, provided a *clear* and solid explanation for:
No, Misato did not shoot Kaji, Anno directly stated this.
You see, this apparently happened with a lot of fans and from your experience I guess it still does:  Kaji getting shot instantly cuts to Misato's door, leaving some to speculate that this was implying that Misato killed Kaji.  
However, when Hideaki Anno heard of this, he was flabbergasted;  they NEVER even intended to give the *implication* that it was Misato -- that is, there wasn't  even intended to be red herring misinformation or something.  They never in any way meant to imply that Misato shot Kaji.
Anno *stated* this.
They felt so bad about it, that when they were making the Director's Cut versions of episodes 21-24, they completely re-edited this sequence, so it now just cuts to a widescreen view of their apartment -- Anno felt so bad that people thought they were implying it was Misato, that they *went back and edited the episode*
This is basically the one big mystery that Anno felt needed to be clarified.
***Also, the "Theatrical Booklets" that came with End of Evangelion in theaters, directly state that basically, Kaji was killed by unnamed security agents from either Nerv or Seele (depending on who got to him first, because by that point, he'd angered both groups)
Kaji is a triple agent:  Seele thinks he's working for them, while Gendo things he's a double agent actually working for Gendo and spying on Seele for him.  The reality is, he's spying on BOTH of them for the Japanese government.  
***The Director's Cut version even has a new scene where Kaji says "I think Seele wants to kill me now, they found out that I stole Adam back in episode 8 "
Mr. Pinchuk....are you watching the Director's Cut episodes?  as we told you to?
Because if you HAD been, you wouldn't have run into this problem.
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
1 - your speculation on Rei is not specifically correct.  Notice that Naoko Akagi actually strangles child-Rei until she....SNAP.
2 - Gendo taking Yui's surname was a subtle thing implying that Gendo basically ingratiated himself to Seele through Yui, "Marrying up" as it were.  Yui was working for Seele.  (Btw, this is the only episode we actually see Yui Ikari in; her actions affect many episodes though)
3 -  ....what POSSIBLE "occult references" are you referring to?  "So much occultism" - no handwaves, cite something specific?   No, that's not an implication.
Again...there is no actual religious meaning to the show.
Again...are you watching the Director's Cut episodes?  Because Gendo has a key line in the director's cut when they first enter the Tokyo-3 Geofront:  he says to Fuyutski:
"We didn't build the GeoFront.  An intelligence other than Man did.  We just found it."
Further, and I warned you that you need to "not blink" and pause on key things, notice also in the Director's Cut that when Fuyutsuki is looking at a scan of the Katsuragi Expedition's old records, there's a chart showing the OTHER GeoFront, the Antarctica GeoFront where they found Adam.  
Notes attached say "Identical to the Hakone (Tokyo-3) Geofront" and "Surface structure clearly artificial"
This episode was the most they ever say on-screen about the Angels, but the idea is that they are indeed extra-terrestrials. 
Post by Kris (130 posts) See mini bio Level 7
@hitsusatsu11:  I guess he might have had feelings for Yui (given his reactions with Rei), but honestly, I don't think Gendo cares about anyone but himself, or about anything other than his ambition.  To do the spoiler thing, you can highlight the text you want to hide, then click the little red exclamation point button on the draft box. 
First of all, you're coming across a tad hostile there.  Chill out. 
Second: It's unbelievable to me that so many people actually thought Misato killed Kaji.  When I watched it, there was absolutely nothing in there that conveyed any such thing to me.  It was very obvious he was killed by one of the organizations he was spying on.  I'd like to say "Well, I guess I can see how that could happen," but I honestly really can't.   
Also, I haven't seen the director's cut, but I think I already knew they didn't build the GeoFront.  Perhaps this was in Death or Rebirth or End of Eva? 
Post by No_name_here (871 posts) See mini bio Level 11
"The reaction Fuyutsuki has to the news of Yuy being with Gendo is priceless, and I get the feeling Fuyutsuki was (and is) in love with Yuy. I wonder to if Gendo changing his last name to Ikari is purely a move to get in with seele or if it has some genuine emotion behind it. "
I definitely picked up on that, too. Like I said, there's a lot of understated character points here.
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@Tom_Pinchuk: Yes its great how they layer characters like Gendo and even Fuyutsuki. 
Post by No_name_here (871 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@Kris:  I got the impression that she did. There's snippets of him breaking into NERV and then her sneaking around with a gun. He's shot by somebody off camera and the sound of the gunshot overlaps to her in apartment. I got the impression that it was supposed to be a "duty vs. love" dilemma. I guess I was off, but then again, it seems like I wasn't the only one.
Post by No_name_here (871 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@ReVolutionOfEvangelion:  Look up "Agartha" online and you'll see why Geofront made me think of that.
As for the rest of it, I'm sorry, but I'm watching the rest of this from the Perfect Collection, as that's the one I have access to.  
I suppose that wherever I fall short in my interpretation... that's where your fan site comes in to set the record straight.
Post by Kris (130 posts) See mini bio Level 7
Oh, I vaguely remember that part.  And if I remember correctly, she's sneaking around with a gun, because she's trying to find information.  Kaji gave her some sort of lead or hint, so she's trying to find it on her own.  She's doing her own spying, basically.  Kaji's off in some warehouse somewhere, I think.
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