What the F@#$ Did I Just Watch?! EVANGELION Director's Cuts

Topic started by No_name_here on May 20, 2010. Last post by FoxxFireArt 4 years, 3 months ago.
Post by No_name_here (855 posts) See mini bio Level 11
Staff

 Pretty soon, I'm going to be seeing hidden images in this logo.
 Pretty soon, I'm going to be seeing hidden images in this logo.

Don’t let it ever be said that I don’t listen to you lunatics in the Anime Vice community. When I posted my thoughts on episodes 20 through 24 of Eva, you all demanded I watch the director’s cut versions because they were supposed to be better on every level. Well, I did check them out and I can say that they weren’t better on at least one level - - voice acting. Watching these episodes over again definitely drew my attention to how important it is to find the proper actor for a cartoon. Fans have said that this show has an unusually good dub and I have to agree. Every member of the cast has done a good enough job that I’d really like to see some of their live action work - -  although from the looks of some of their IMDB profiles, it seems like a lot of them have work solely in the realm of dubs and a number haven’t even been in any projects in years. That's a shame.  Either way, while I think every actor’s done great work, I’ll single out Allison Keith (the voice of Misato) as doing an exceptionally good job. She can convey the broad spectrum of a tough, bubbly and vulnerable so well.  The fact that the simple scene with her talking to Pen Pen is one of the most moving here, really speaks to her talents. I’d really like to see more work from her.

But you want me to rag on the guy they got to voice Kaworu here, right? Honestly, I don’t have as much a problem with him. I still prefer the creepy, ghostly monotone of whoever voiced the angel boy in the first go around, but I don’t think this guy is really that inferior. I actually was more miffed about the guy they had voice Gendo in this one.  The original voice actor captured that perfect, though elusive, air of an evil superintendent. That is, banality laced with menace in an administrator’s nasally tone. This guy, however, seemed like he could only play one card at once and it never fit.

 Could Pen Pen have been the 19th angel?
 Could Pen Pen have been the 19th angel?

The  number of changes seemed to increase as the episode went along, although I’m sure I’m missing a lot of significant stuff in episode 21.  Anyway, to comment on the differences…

  • Rei’s death is about ten times more interesting in the director’s cut, which is saying something because her nuclear suicide was quite involving, as is. The fact that that “wall of souls” erupts in her flesh before the angel consumes her completely changes the scene significantly, and it’s far freakier.
  • Maybe the insinuation is less pronounced, but I still think it’s very easy to presume that Misato kills Kaji. She gets her gun back from Nerv, says “I know what I need to do” or something, and then Kaji gets shot by some unknown familiar off-screen. I get that it wasn’t her, now, but it’s a very easy mistake to make.
  • That scene where Misato’s spying on Kaworu’s invisible Seele conference and then he notices her, from miles away, was five kinds of creepy. This heavier implication of him working for Seele certainly raises a lot more questions, though. My friend shared an interesting observation that he’s supposed to be formed from the angel’s “mind rape” of Asuka and is thus construed as a “perfect” version of her (along with embodying Adam.) That explains how he sinks perfectly with Unit-02 and how he’s comfortable voicing aloud the feelings she harbors secretly.
  • By the way, I don’t know if Asuka’s made to be any more sympathetic now, with the additional material. We just seemed to get more looks at her freaky hallucinations and that hanging doll. I saw a very brief snippet of her kiss with Shinji, but I didn’t see anything letting on that she’s hurt that he didn’t kiss her back.
  • Still not quite sure what happened to Yui in the experiment, even though I’ve got a better sense of her motivations. I did think it was funny that they made a point to show that Ritsuko had the same hair color as her mother before she (presumably) dyed it blond.

Whoa… this ran a lot longer than usual. I think this is a sign that I’m in too deep. Next thing you know, I’ll be stripping naked and wearing a tin foil hat!

-- Tom Pinchuk is the writer of UNIMAGINABLE for Arcana Studios and HYBRID BASTARDS! for Archaia. Pre-order the HYBRID BASTARDS! hardcover now on Amazon.com.

Post by mediaright (75 posts) See mini bio Level 5
We could have a whole long discussion on how anime dubbing works, but the lion's-share of good studios these days are in Texas (that being the remains of ADV in Houston, and the still vibrant Funimation near Dallas). Evangellion was maybe the 2nd dubbing project ADV ever took on ('97 I believe), and the actors involved had a mostly improv background, which is why it's so amazing the dub is as good as it is (even though, let's not kid ourselves, sucks compared to a Fullmetal Alchemist level production)...let's just say there are dubs currently on TV that are worse than this one. 
 
So yes, many of these people were no longer in the biz in 2004 when they got the rights to the director's cuts. Be prepared for yet another cast change in End of Eva. This movie was actually acquired by a different company who released it and instead gave the dubbing tasks to a studio in LA (Manga Entertainment). They still got the leads to work on it, but a lot of the incidental characters have been completely changed up. 
  
And then there are the 'Rebuild' movies...which are next for you after End of Eva, Tom. Yet ANOTHER cast change, because this was a 2008 dub and even more people had moved on. Plus, Funimation got the rights this go around since ADV was kinda hurting by this point. Fortunately, Funi put Mike McFarland as director for this project. He directed Alchemist, the new One Piece dub, and he's one of their best directors so his casting was really level-headed. Where he could, he tried to get members of the original cast back, and Shinji and Misato's original voices return, but there's a lot af new blood. Greg Ayres, whom people seem to hate so much as Kowaru, actually plays another character here, and apparently he was pretty broken up about it when that call was made. Just as well since in these movies, Jerry Jewel got the role (he was Barry the Chopper on FMA), and IMO, his voice is much more in-line with that creepiness the original had. 
 
So there's the whole tale of dubbing as far as Eva's concerned.
Post by OmegaChosen (43 posts) See mini bio Level 6
" My friend shared an interesting observation that he’s supposed to be formed from the angel’s “mind rape” of Asuka and is thus construed as a “perfect” version of her..."
 
Never heard that theory before. O_o I mean it'd be interesting but I don't see how that would really be possible, especially since Angels aren't made that way and the fact that Arael had a giant lance thrown through it before it even finished probing Asuka's mind. I think your friend may be looking too deep into some of Kaworu's dialogue. Not that his few lines of dialogue haven't already been picked and studied to death already. >_>
 
Anyway, on to End of Evangelion! When you see it, you'll sh*t bricks. :P
Post by Dream (7,469 posts) See mini bio Level 20
Moderator


By the way, I don’t know if Asuka’s made to be any more sympathetic now, with the additional material. We just seemed to get more looks at her freaky hallucinations and that hanging doll. I saw a very brief snippet of her kiss with Shinji, but I didn’t see anything letting on that she’s hurt that he didn’t kiss her back.

 During her mind-rape by the Angel, Asuka displayed hatred for two people: her mother and Shinji. The last moments Asuka recalled of her mother were being neglected for a doll that the mother believed was her  and nearly being strangled to death by her (said strangling being the big cause of Asuka's desire to be superior and wanting independence). This was because Asuka's mother became mentally unstable as a result of a contact experiment with Eva-02 which caused the mother's soul to be absorbed into the Eva and the physical body later committing suicide as a result of said stability (and attempting to take Asuka with her in said suicide). As for Shinji, she's angry at him for not helping her ease her problems. Notice during the point in the mind-rape where she calls out for Kaji and sees Shinji? During that point, she yells out in response to his presence: "What are you doing here? You won't do anything! You won't help me! You won't even hold me!" thus implying in her own way, she desired Shinji to comfort her.

Still not quite sure what happened to Yui in the experiment, even though I’ve got a better sense of her motivations. I did think it was funny that they made a point to show that Ritsuko had the same hair color as her mother before she (presumably) dyed it blond. 

Yui was testing out Eva-01 in a contact experiment, but winded up "disappearing" in the cockpit. By "disappear," it's strongly hinted her soul was absorbed into the unit.
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
 


it seems like a lot of them have work solely in the realm of dubs and a number haven’t even been in any projects in years.
 

Well you kind of hit the nail on the head:  many low-level voice actors don't stay in the business for seven years.  I mean look around today, particularly today;
 
the problem was that Eva actually built up its third tier characters up enough that you cared about that, so we noticed when the technician voices got changed.
 
But as you yourself said:  the problem was that so many voice actors from the original series had left the business altogether.  ADV did try to find them all, but in some cases it was impossible.  I mean this show got dubbed in 1997, and the Directors Cut was made in 2004...*SEVEN years* later.  Many minor voices couldn't be found.
 
The changed DC voices are Gendo, Kaworu, Aoba, Maya.  Aoba and Maya are bad but you don't notice too much because they don't do too much in these episodes.  
 
As for Kaworu...well, at least you understand that he didn't really do AS GOOD of a performance as the original.
 
While Gendo....wasn't that great but to his credit he only had four episodes and could have been worse.
 
A major mistake you're making is.....well, you like the "Evil Genius" Gendo voice of the original, and admittedly its kickass, but....the original Japanese Gendo doesn't sound like that.  Japanese Gendo is very nuanced, and sounds more like a tired, embittered, sardonic world-weary man.  So Director's Cut Gendo, while flawed, was ironically CLOSER to what Gendo is SUPPOSED to sound like.  They also used this same guy, John Swasey, for Rebuild of Evangelion's Gendo, and its...different, but a lot better than it was in the Director's Cut episodes.
 
Again, you hit the nail on the head:  the minor cast members who had to be recast drag down the DC episodes, but the RETURNING cast members like Allison Keith-Ship (Misato), Spike Spencer (Shinji), and Tiffany Grant (Asuka) gave career-highlight performances.
 
(Particularly, Mr. Pinchuk, if you thought Allison's Misato improved by the Director's Cut episodes, it improved SO MUCH by Rebuild of Evangelion that it's simply STUNNING.
 
Well, you understand that Anno said Misato didnt' kill Kaji.  And I think the DC episodes' conscious effort to avoid this implication makes it clearer...either way we know that's not what happened.
 
Ritsuko is DEFINED as "a woman living in the shadow of her famous mother".  She *literally* has an Elektra complex (sleeping with her mother's old boyfriend).   She only ACTS like shes in control, more in control that everyone else, but she's actually just as insane as the rest of them.  She didn't BUILD the Evas, the Magi, or Nerv HQ; she just finished up the work that her mother did.  This is tot he point that when she hit college, she bleached her hair blonde to try to look less like her.
 

 My friend shared an interesting observation that he’s supposed to be formed from the angel’s “mind rape” of Asuka and is thus construed as a “perfect” version of her (along with embodying Adam.) That explains how he sinks perfectly with Unit-02 and how he’s comfortable voicing aloud the feelings she harbors secretly.
 


 ...WTF?!  How the heck did they come up with that idea?  No....simply No.  Nothing implied that.   Kaworu is Adam in a human clone body; he even STATES this in the Director's Cut version.  And he explains that he can synch with Evas, because Evas are clones of Adam's body.
 
As for sympathetic Asuka:  well, put this side by side with the other one and you'll see what was new; Admittedly it goes by very fast, but there's a point when Asuka says you wont' even hold me! youre nothing!
Post by FoxxFireArt (2,640 posts) See mini bio Level 25
Moderator
I completely agree about Misato's ( Allison Keith) voice work for this series. Few actors can normally hit that range of emotions. I'm normally a person who favors subs, but I can't deny the cast is good on this series. Keith's work especially.
 
It seems shocking that she doesn't have a profile on Anime Vice. Perhaps I'll go make one. It's rather surprising that Misato's profile is so sparse on the site. Considering her popularity as a character.
 
EDIT: Allison Keith now has a profile on Anime Vice.
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
@mediaright: 
 Yes, I too was happy with Jerry Jewell's Rebuild-Kaworu.  He was Tony in Blue Gender, who frankly sounds a lot like original Kaworu to begin with, so I was happy when I heard the news, and with the final product.
 
Look, Rebuild changed almost the whole cast (and its from 2009) so we'll deal with that in turn.
 
Ah yes, the "Mangling" of the End of Eva DVD ....keep in mind, Mr. Pinchuk that...there was a horrible DVD transfer problem, that resulted in terrible screen brightness issues -- people aren't supposed to GLOW like that; even 7 years later, Justin Sevakis of ANN casually uses it as an example of a bad DVD transfer begging for a remastered re-release.
 
The way I break it down, there were SIX characters with significance voice changes.  The School character, etc. don't count because they weren't featured prominently in the DC episodes or the movie.  Remember, also, that "End of Evangelion" was made in 2002...but Manga Entertainment did such a bad job that Gainax went *back* to ADV to release the Director's Cuts in 2004.  The Director's Cuts came out FIRST in Japan, before End of Eva, its an accident that they came out AFTER the movie in America.  Anyway, the major voice changes were:
 
  • Gendo -  the original Gendo voice got into an argument over script rights with ADV, and promised to never work for them again.  HOWEVER, because Manga did End of Eva, not ADV, this meant he was willing to return for End of Eva.  So if you didn't like Director's Cut Gendo, the arguably more important finale movie was handled by the original.
  • Fuyutsuki - original VA left the industry by 2002, so there's a different guy voicing him in End of Eva.  He's not too bad, I just prefer the original.  However, ADV went to great lengths to track down the original for 2004's directors cut episodes, that's why he's the same in those.
  • Kaworu - Director's Cuts used Greg Ayres, who even you have to admit were at best "not great" and at worst many fans don't like.  For the brief flashback scenes involving Kaworu in End of Eva, which are NOT that important, they had the guy who voices Kaji fill in; you really wouldn't notice though its like one or two lines.
 
Next, we come to the technician characters:  ****End of Eva is the one "episode" that highlights the technician trio more than any other, because it happens "on their turf".

  • Aoba - because Amanda Winn Lee and Jaxon C. Lee left for Los Angeles, Jaxon didn't reprise his role as Aoba in the Director's Cut episodes.  HOWEVER, he IS in End of Eva....and thank god, because it was Aoba's finest hour.  Casually gunning down people with a submachine gun and barking at Maya, "Idiot you kill or you die!!"  Aoba is a badass, remorseless killing machine.
  • Maya - has the dubious honor of being the one character voiced by more different people than any other; each of Maya's appearances in Eva media was by someone else.  the Director's cut Monica Rial was awful; I always prefer Kendra Benham's original.  End of Eva's Maya is voiced by Amy Sealey and she....is actually pretty functional, she's pretty good actually.  (Rebuild of Eva has Caitlin Glass voice Maya, because McFarland apparently realized that even though shes a third tier character, Eva's one of those shows with important third tiers, so he cast an A-lister as Maya:  it really helps, Caitlin Glass *nailed* Maya). 
  • Hyuga....well hes actually voiced by ADR director Matt Greenfield, using a pseudonym.  So of course when ADV did the directors cuts, he had the same voice.  but for End of Eva....well he didn't come back because ADV wasn't doing it and the result was.....the worst voice of the entire franchise.  More that Directors Cut Gendo, arguably worse than Director's Cut Kaworu.....they cast Keith Burgess, a heavyset tall black man who is famous for voicing tough guys roles, and cast him as nerdy guy Hyuga.  he sounds NOTHING like the original Hyuga, to the point that it actually takes you out of the movie. 
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,746 posts) See mini bio Level 20

But you want me to rag on the guy they got to voice Kaworu here, right? Honestly, I don’t have as much a problem with him. I still prefer the creepy, ghostly monotone of whoever voiced the angel boy in the first go around, but I don’t think this guy is really that inferior. I actually was more miffed about the guy they had voice Gendo in this one.  The original voice actor captured that perfect, though elusive, air of an evil superintendent. That is, banality laced with menace in an administrator’s nasally tone. This guy, however, seemed like he could only play one card at once and it never fit.

 Could Pen Pen have been the 19th angel?
 Could Pen Pen have been the 19th angel?

  • That scene where Misato’s spying on Kaworu’s invisible Seele conference and then he notices her, from miles away, was five kinds of creepy. This heavier implication of him working for Seele certainly raises a lot more questions, though. My friend shared an interesting observation that he’s supposed to be formed from the angel’s “mind rape” of Asuka and is thus construed as a “perfect” version of her (along with embodying Adam.) That explains how he sinks perfectly with Unit-02 and how he’s comfortable voicing aloud the feelings she harbors secretly.
  • By the way, I don’t know if Asuka’s made to be any more sympathetic now, with the additional material. We just seemed to get more looks at her freaky hallucinations and that hanging doll. I saw a very brief snippet of her kiss with Shinji, but I didn’t see anything letting on that she’s hurt that he didn’t kiss her back.
  • Still not quite sure what happened to Yui in the experiment, even though I’ve got a better sense of her motivations. I did think it was funny that they made a point to show that Ritsuko had the same hair color as her mother before she (presumably) dyed it blond.


"
- Kawaru was terrible in the directors cut.
 
- The mind rape kawaru-asuka theory is interesting, though i would have to disagree. kawaru can synch perfectly with 02 because her resident soul became "dormant" after asuka loses her mind
 
-For what happened with Yuy, think along the lines of what happened to Shinji when he reached 400% synch
 
-We see asuka being hurt by shinji not kissing her in the brief snippet of her crying in the bathroom
 
-Interesting you bring up Pen Pen, i have heard theories that say Pen Pen is the true omnipotent God of the Eva-verse lol.
 
Directors cut is really good to watch subbed, you get the bonus scenes without the bad voice acting.
Post by No_name_here (855 posts) See mini bio Level 11
Staff
@OmegaChosen:  My friend was a psych major so, admittedly, his interpretations lean more to diagnosing these characters. The notion that Human Instrumentality "fixes" all these characters hang-ups was part of a clue - - basically to say that Kaworu represents an Asuka who's overcome her problems. Also, it would fit in with the whole idea of the angels getting wiser and improving their tactics with each attack. You can't beat the humans on land, at sea, in their computers, or even by possessing an Eva? Maybe you should try to use a human with intel?
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
@hitsusatsu11:   okay you've been doing this for a while and I'm compelled to point it out:  why do you consistently spell it as "Yuy" with two Y's?  It's "Yui" with an "i". 
 
Well that's the problem:  the voice acting in the director's cuts isn't "bad" overall, because ***all of the returning cast members did their best performances ever***.  The problem was the not returning cast members...
 
Pen Pen isn't "god"...he's the Greek Chorus.  Just as at Nerv HQ, the Nerv technicians are sort of a Greek Chorus.
Post by ReVolutionOfEvangelion (102 posts) See mini bio Level 3
@Tom_Pinchuk said:
" @OmegaChosen:  My friend was a psych major so, admittedly, his interpretations lean more to diagnosing these characters. The notion that Human Instrumentality "fixes" all these characters hang-ups was part of a clue - - basically to say that Kaworu represents an Asuka who's overcome her problems. Also, it would fit in with the whole idea of the angels getting wiser and improving their tactics with each attack. You can't beat the humans on land, at sea, in their computers, or even by possessing an Eva? Maybe you should try to use a human with intel? "
Um...no.
 
No, how does Kaworu, in ANY way, represent Asuka...of all people...with "overcome problems?"  ANY MORE than Shinji?  If anyone, he's SPECIFICALLY what *Rei* would be like if she was "functional" (given that they're both clones, etc.).....call up your friend and ask specifically what about Asuka, more than Shinji, somehow matched this.  Thats silly.
 
NO, NO,  Human Instrumentality Project doesn't "fix" your problems;  its universally presented as a BAD thing in the show.  It's basically a big metaphor for when Shinji "zones out" from the world by plugging in his headphones.  Its taking the BLUE pill in the Matrix; its not real.  
 
The Angels never consciously chose to improve their "tactics"; the strongest ones took longer to develop, thats all (and its sort of a dramatic conceit of the show)
 
But while all of the other Angels came on their own, *Seele* SENT Kaworu to Nerv, because they'd already captured him.
 
As for how their psychology breaks down:
 
Shinji = Avoidant Personality Disorder
 
Asuka = Narcissistic Personality Disorder
 
Rei = Schizoid Personality Disorder
 
Misato = Borderline Personality Disorder
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,746 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@ReVolutionOfEvangelion: 
 
1) Idk why I spell it as "Yuy" and not "Yui" I guess because of Heero Yuy lol, but the correct for both is "Yui" your right.
 
2) Ya the returning cast is solid, like they're solid in 1.11, the problem is in the new actors.
 
3) I know Pen Pen isn't God its just a stupid theory I heard, another theory I heard is Pen Pen is Adam because "you never see them in the same room together." But obviously none of these are to be taken seriously.
 
I have a few questions about the nature of instrumentality, and some other stuff, but i think I'll hold off on asking until Tom reviews EoE.
 
I agree with your psychology analyze, but I think the characters ( especially Rei) are more complex than just fitting in to one predefined category, but i get your just doing a general look.
Post by No_name_here (855 posts) See mini bio Level 11
Staff
@FoxxFireArt:  Huh. Good work. I was wondering what she looked like.
Post by FoxxFireArt (2,640 posts) See mini bio Level 25
Moderator
@Tom_Pinchuk: 
It can be pretty difficult to find decent pictures of voice actors. English or Japanese. This was my first time actually seeing her as well. I normally don't really care what a voice actor looks like. As long as they can get the job done and sound good.
Mandatory Network

Submissions can take several hours to be approved.

Save ChangesCancel