Goku vs Superman

Topic started by hitsusatsu11 on Sept. 18, 2010. Last post by Sonata 2 years, 8 months ago.
Post by DBZ_universe (15,960 posts) See mini bio Level 17
Post by JThree47605 (1,030 posts) See mini bio Level 10

I want to make a case for Superman, but Newdeath is just going to come and kill the thread, I guess I'll just wait and see.
Post by DJSNuva1 (3,347 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@JThree47605: Just make another one.. I made one already, did you read it?
Post by Sinister_Noob (2,033 posts) See mini bio Level 8
@DJSNuva1 said:
" @DBZ_universe said:
" @DJSNuva1: alright.. then i'll check that out...  "
Yeah, and his post still has a whole lot more pics though xP "
ya, it would make your post readable (to me) to have a few more videos and pictures.
Post by Sinister_Noob (2,033 posts) See mini bio Level 8
anyways, i am a big fan of both these characters, i've watched all DB,DBZ and read tons TONS! of superman comics, and im surprised i saw quite a few scans i have not seen before, very impressive work hitsusasu....and nova.....ANYWAYS, i expected to come in here and start going on about how much stronger superman is than goku. but i got to say i was opened back up to the awesome power of DBZ logic. i was so impressed i am actually sure goku will win this one. if it's the correct version of superman i'm thinking of. which one is it BTW? and why don;t we have a poll in here or something?
Post by Boxer_Joe (307 posts) See mini bio Level 10

Why is everyone not paying attention to DJS's argument?

Post by JThree47605 (1,030 posts) See mini bio Level 10
@DJSNuva1 said:
" @JThree47605: Just make another one.. I made one already, did you read it? "

Yes I did my good sir, well done.
Post by taichokage (17,038 posts) See mini bio Level 20
Online Now
@DJSNuva1: nice also. I admit I'm rooting for Goku but still nice.
Post by Kurohige (3,774 posts) See mini bio Level 19

My case for Superman


DBZ power levels are scwered up 

Destructive power

Now as impressive at it is for master Roshi destroying a moon and Piccolo too both doing it with relitive ease here is superman heating the entire earth with his heat vision not that he could easily destroy the earth as scientist who can measure the heat of the sun say they cannot measure Superman's heat vison:

Scientist cannot measure it's heat power and say that there may be no limit.
Scientist cannot measure it's heat power and say that there may be no limit.

That proves right there that Superman would be able to easily destroy multiple planets without even being tired. Even suns. 

 Here is Superman Punching Lobo from earth into orbit, Superman says if he didn't hold back he would spend a century orbiting around earth:

Here is Superman fighting Zod while under the red sun (Which  makes him weaker than kryptonite) and causing eathquakes and other planets to fall apart while he is still holding back:
Superman stating that every blow is destroying the planet with everyblow and causing earthquakes, keep in mind that not only is he under the red sun but he is also holding back.
Superman stating that every blow is destroying the planet with everyblow and causing earthquakes, keep in mind that not only is he under the red sun but he is also holding back.

Here is Superman not holding back with a single punch knocks out Cyborg Superman who is invulnerable and mimics Superman:
This one is sort of a durability and strength feat, SUperman is holding a mini black hole in the palm of his hand this by far makes his punching power and durability far surpass that of any DBZ character:

Superman catching a moon sized space ship andwithout any effort tosses it away:

Here is Superman instantly freezing Wonder Woman note that he can make is ice breath about as big as his heat vision not only does it freeze you instantly but it can also reach Sub zero:

Here is Superman sneezing out an entire solar system this reflect his potential power not only that but he did this with out trying:

That there shows more destructive power than everyone on DBZ, now here is Superman running through a planet:

Superman using heat vision to repair a hole is the cosmos:

If he can repair one he should easily be able to destroy on as well. 
 Here is Superman knocking down a cosmic entity he would easily take Buu down himself:


Now while it is indeed impressive how easily DBZ characters can destroy planets SUperman takes those kinds of hits like nothing also Frieza's kick is not stronger than planet busting attacks as Vegeta's attack did not explode or anything that is why Frieza reflected it instead of simply taking it. Anyways here is SUperman being in the center of a planet as it explodes, he simply jokes about his ears ringing from his partner yelling and flies off like nothing happened:

Here is superman simply swimming in the sun (The sun can easily destroy planets by just being near them:
 Now here is Superman using kryptonian martial arts, GOku only fought against power houses no one with any real fighting skill:

Here is Superman taking a attack equal to a million nuclear blast:



Note this is a weaker version. Now here is Superman 

surviving the destruction of a sun eater at ground zero. The sun eater is an enormously energetic cloud that literally eats both the energy and mass of whole stars. The sun eater was considerably larger than a star, had been in existence for millenia and had consumed the energy of many stars by travelling from galaxy to galaxy. Which proves that he's far more durable than any DBZ/GT character.





Here is Superman getting out of a blackhole something Goku would need IT  for:










I bit out of order my bad


Superman firing a low power laser at the moon from earth also note that it blinds everyone except for plastic man who has shades:

Here is Superman blitzing Bizarro who had almost stalemated Zoom in a race:

Here is Superman vibrating his molecules so fast that attacks go right through him proof his is faster than any DBZ character:


Doing the same only this time being invisible:

Superman from earth hearing Green lantern who is millions of miles away from earth and getting there in seconds:


Here is Superman taking Darkseid from eath to the sun in seconds the taking him into a black hole:

Superman blitzing an entire city of villains:








Superman beats Goku far too versitile and powerful than any of the character:

Here is more (Sorry I got lazy here) Survives a Suneater while being weakened by red sun radiation:

Shrugs off getting hit out of orbit.

Superman doesn’t even feel the explosion of the moon. There isn’t a scratch on him.

Survives a different suneater:


Worlds will dissolve…Universes will perish…Yet you will go on and on and on.

Superman fights this guy Khyber up in the atmosphere, and their blows shake the earth beneath them. Khyber weakens him with nanites, then throws him through the earth, but he survives and later escapes after spending a long time in the Earth’s core:


A weakened Superman deflecting several kryptonite energy beams

Superman takes blasts from a Spaceship that can destroy planets


Doesn’t seem to be hurt by a Force 12 Disintegration beam


Superman goes inside a temple where the pressure is like being at the center of a star


Supes easily withstands multiple shots of Darkseid’s Omega Beams:

Survives being smashed between New Genesis and Apokolips

Survives an exploding sun:
 Gets knocked to the moon, does little more than annoy him


Recharges rapidly right after being bombarded with red sunlight


Year One Superman successfully resists the pull of a mini blackhole





Walks right through Guy Gardner’s beam and takes his GL ring after a contest of willpower but gives it back to Hal afterwards deciding it would be too much power for him to have









Withstands a full blast of power from an enraged GL Kyle contruct although his face is messed up afterwards.





Superman doesn’t really have trouble with fire-type attacks.


I did want to reference durability against electrical attacks though, as Superman as often pitted against a certain thunder god...


Superman can take lightning strikes for fun


Even taking on the biggest electrical storm (props to Avalon)


Though that was year one Superman (he was much weaker back then), Poseidon’s magic/power/storm/lightning knocked Superman out:


Acid blasts are no problem.


Superman can also take on gas attacks.


Superman is also much experienced with handling sonics.


Superman takes on a Banshee that knew the Kryptonian language (and thus more devastating).


While braced, Superman can casually take energy blasts as back massages.

In this case, he was doing just that till his flight powers went away:


Superman has shown the ability to combat energy beams.


Superman has taken beams that could level a city, and trust Cyborg, because he’s an experienced city leveler. Cyborg also amped himself up later by using the core of the planets power against Superman.


Here’s another example of taking on a blast that could’ve leveled a city, It was fired from Entropy Aegis.


Superman again took on the power of the Entropy Aegis.



Superman even took energy attacks from a guy that had the power of all these different alien species, including many energy based one.


Superman can withstand the blasts from Kalibak’s Beta club,and even smoosh it.


Darkseid uses an Omega attack fine-tuned to Superman’s molecular structure. Superman still takes him on...


Here’s Superman surviving another black hole.


Superman also survived the heat of Almerac’s core. He’s survived Earth’s core many times before


Superman was merely knocked out when attacked by Starbreaker’s power of a nova.


The guy was powerful to cause the following:


Superman also survived Eradicator’s core-of-the-sun blasts.


Early in his career, Superman was intially unable to really handle the sun. He did grow in power, but was worried about his durability against the suns extremes


This was soon changed, as Superman survived the Sun (and it was even red at the time, IIRC):



Later still, Superman showed quick revival (even from a depleted state) when entering the Sun:


Superman’s withstood all kinds of explosions. Right here he caught a bomb that could’ve leveled a city block.


In the following scene, he caused an explosion by blasting the gas line. He did so as a diversion to get away from Brainiac:


The explosion of a mother ship.


Superman took a point blank blast that made a stain on one of Saturn’s moons.


Superman can survive nukes and atom bombs. This was probably the smallest he’s ever faced.



Superman laughed this blast off. It was a thermonuclear warhead meant to destroy Metropolis.



Not sure about the tonnage of this blast, but it sure looked impressive. Again Superman wasn’t knocked unconscious.


When Superman braces himself, he cant take all kinds of physical punishment.


This is Guy with his Sinestro ring, notice how Superman isn’t fased from his attacks.



When not braced, and that’s very likely as Superman is all over the place in a fight, he can be launched by very powerful blows.


Across a city.


Through buildings with Kryptonite on him.


Through more buildings.


Sometimes Superman is hit so hard that he leaves orbit, but he always returns:




Superman has gotten up from being smashed to the Earth or other planets...




Especially if he’s hit by the power of the Earth (note he was KOed after the attack, even though he wasn’t expecting that).


or through the Earth (him and Bizarro which bodies)...


Superman can handle the pressure of the Earth’s core.


Superman was even punched through, and still fought on. However, this was by Emperor “reality manipulating” Joker.


The greatest physical force Superman faced were probably Pocket-Universe PC Suprboy and the PC Kryptonian villains:


Superman took a haymaker from Superboy And took a pounding from his PC superiors.


Even Superman’s cells are hard to hurt...


Superman has taken on quite a few psionics as well. TK blasts from the Matrix Supergirl...


Apokoliptan mind control was said to be not enough against a “conscious” Superman.


A mutant alien tried to mind manipulate Superman, and died in the effort against Superman’s strong mind.



Superman has taken on Maxima’s psi-bolts. This was during his ascension to Eradicator.



He’s resisted Brainiac, as Gangbuster...


Another one.






And the last.



He psionically stopped Superman’s heart.


But Superman kept at him.


Superman gets a big headache from voodoo dolls, but at least he didn’t die!


As Gangbuster, Superman overcame mystical binding.



Resisting more magic attacks.



Superman was whupped on by this magical creature that could block Doc Occult’s talisman even. Still, Superman fought through and blubberized it.



And last.





Fighting an army on a red sun.



Supes absorbing the Mageddon Warhead. Literally. Notice how it goes from Black to Glowing after Supes is done. 
Post by DJSNuva1 (3,347 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@Sinister_Noob said:
" anyways, i am a big fan of both these characters, i've watched all DB,DBZ and read tons TONS! of superman comics,..."
Right... C'mon man, don't lie. 
@Sinister_Noob said:
"... and im surprised i saw quite a few scans i have not seen before, very impressive work Hitsusasu....and Nuva....."
Right, because you haven't read a lot of Superman, but I would've thought you'd seen most of the DB scans. 
@Sinister_Noob said:
"....ANYWAYS, i expected to come in here and start going on about how much stronger superman is than goku...."
Why would you expect that? This is ANIMEvice, not ComicVine. Not to mention, naturally the two opening posts were "The Case For Goku" then "The Case For Superman"...  
@Sinister_Noob said:
 "...but i got to say i was opened back up to the awesome power of DBZ logic. i was so impressed i am actually sure goku will win this one...."
DBZ Logic? Awesome? Goku will win? Alright. I doubt you read both opening posts, and though DB Characters are powerful, I would like to see a "Case For Goku" posted by YOU and what YOU think. 
@Sinister_Noob said:
"...if it's the correct version of superman i'm thinking of. which one is it BTW? and why don;t we have a poll in here or something? "
It says in the OP. "Pre-Crsis Superman Vs SSJ3 Goku"
Post by Kurohige (3,774 posts) See mini bio Level 19
It's cool man I posted a huge argument for supes.
Post by DJSNuva1 (3,347 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@Kurohige said:

" @DJSNuva1: It's cool man I posted a huge argument for supes. "

It's an awesome post. Very extensive on the Superman feats... It might take me awhile to process it all 
EDIT: Not really informative about Goku though
Post by rein (5,465 posts) See mini bio Level 15
@DJSNuva1: Actually for a long time on this site most people thought SA superman > goku. It was only recently that we got a lot of DBZ fans. (funny, because Goku used to be considered a living god over on comicvine, now people consider him to be a streetleveler with energy blasts)
Post by DJSNuva1 (3,347 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@rein: I still think PC Superman>Goku. Mortein even posted to request a change because he thought the fight was "A clear win for Superman" and he's a huge DBZ fan.
Post by Kurohige (3,774 posts) See mini bio Level 19
Thanks I simply re-said what you did with scans hopefully people will pay attention to this one lol. 
EDIT: Doesn't need to be, I was simply repling directly to Hitsusatsu, but I can post the scan with Krillen and Tien not being able to push down a steel door.
Post by DJSNuva1 (3,347 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@Kurohige said:
" @DJSNuva1: Thanks I simply re-said what you did with scans hopefully people will pay attention to this one lol.  EDIT: Doesn't need to be, I was simply repling directly to Hitsusatsu, but I can post the scan with Krillen and Tien not being able to push down a steel door. "
True, true. It doesn't really need to be..
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@Kurohige said:
" @DJSNuva1: Thanks I simply re-said what you did with scans hopefully people will pay attention to this one lol.  EDIT: Doesn't need to be, I was simply repling directly to Hitsusatsu, but I can post the scan with Krillen and Tien not being able to push down a steel door. "
O you were replying to me. 
Well good post. 
Post by Kurohige (3,774 posts) See mini bio Level 19
Thanks yours was legendary..
Post by DJSNuva1 (3,347 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@Hitsusatsu"Now to understand Dragonball is to understand that no one in Dragonball posses a unique skill set like western superhero's, where each hero as a different origin and power and weakness ect. In Dragonball your destructive ability, speed, ect. is generally based on the amount of Ki you posses. Sure some characters also use magic, and psychic attacks, but what I refer to here is the correlation between ki (powerlevel, or battle power) to one's ability. In Dragonball if character A can destroy a certain object when he possesses a certain amount of ki (powerlevel) then character B can also destroy the same object as long as he has a ki equal to or surpassing character A, regardless of whether or not character B has ever actually destroyed said object. Now some of you who are unfamiliar with Dragonball and do not understand its power progressions, and as such brand this ABC logic as false or not valid, but I am sorry you are quite wrong. This is the fundamental principle behind Dragonball, and if you refuse to accept it then you are really just wasting your time debating DB, as you will tell me Master Roshi is more powerful than Nappa, and Freeza is more powerful than Cell."

Your opening paragraph explains the ABC Logic and how the DragonBall characters posses no unique skill set, which I totally agree with. Let's continue.

@Hitsusatsu "Now Dragonball is a franchise where its characters are known for its destructive capabilities, and this is one of Goku's major points of strength that I believe will be instrumental in helping him defeat Superman. 
 Here we see Master Roshi, with a tiny power level of 139, completely destroy the moon using his Kamehameha technique."

You begin your "Destructive Ability" section with how Master Roshi destroyed the Moon at 139(I said 150, but whatever) and how other characters in early DB can do it as well. I agree, however it is a somewhat mute point after you've read my calculations about how even with an extremely high Power Level and being able to destroy the moon at 150(Or 139) it's still not enough to harm Superman. Moving on...

@Hitsusatsu "Now Piccolo with a powerlevel of about 408 again destroys the moon (which was recreated by Kami Sama after Roshi destroyed it) with a quick, spamable attack. His fully charged, fully powered beams would be much more powerful. (And it is important to note the speed at which the beam reaches the moon, and that such moon busting caliber attacks are useless against even Nappa. I will deal with these points further down)"

This didn't really need to be said. Piccolo, by the Roshi calculation at this point can destroy about two and one half moons at this point. Even if it were 10 moons, with my calculations this is really a moot point. Continued...

@Hitsusatsu"Now we see the power of King Vegeta, able to destroy planets with ease by merely flicking his cape."

Yes, King Vegeta destroyed 3 planets by just moving his cape. However, first of all, we don't exactly know what his power level was, we only know that Vegeta was said to be at 10,000 PL soon and eventually was going to pass him up, and that Frieza beat King Vegeta in his first form easily. Even still, we already knew DBZ characters were capable of this kind of destruction, and furthermore it doesn't matter when in comparison to the whole "Superman is as durable as a barrage of Quasars(1 trillion suns+ each) thing.

@Hitsusatsu"His son the Prince, is equally capable of such destruction, and in fact was stated as surpassing his father.

Here he destroys the Planet Arilia"

@Hitsusatsu"And here Vegeta, with a ki of about 18,00 is shaking the earth with his power, crumbling mountains in the process."

@Hitsusatsu" And of course Saiyan Saga Vegeta had the power to destroy the Earth. And as we all know Goku's beam overpowered Vegeta's planet destroying one."

Nobody really cares. We kind of already went over this already.

@Hitsusatsu"Now lets for a minute look at the multipliers for the different levels of Super Saiyan. Ssj1 is 50 times base from multiplier, ssj2 is 100 times base form, and ssj3 is 400 times base form. "

Ok. Yeah. I agree.

@Hitsusatsu"Now this would indicate that if Vegeta would have gone ssj1 at that point way back in the Saiyan Saga, he would have had the power to at least destroy 50 Earths. Likewise if he went ssj2 he could have destroyed 100 Earths. And if Goku would have went ssj3 at the time of the beam struggle then he would theoretically have at least enough power to destroy the earth 400 times over. This is applying the ssj multipliers way way back in the Saiyan Saga when DBZ characters were comparably weak to their later versions, and already I believe this destructive power to far surpass Modern Superman, which is why I wished PC Superman to be involved here. "

Naturally correct. Still not nearly enough for PC Superman though.


@Hitsusatsu"Now this brings us to Freeza, who in first form easily destroyed the planet Namek, and in said form has a battle power of 530,000. Which is only a small fraction of his final power. "

Naturally. By the Roshi Calculation (PL/150(Moon destroyed at 150.. or 139, whatever)/49(49 Moons = Earth) =Ammount of planets that can be destroyed.) Freiza should be able to destroy Earth 72X over at a PL of 530,000. This comes at no real shock. And for destruction of a sun, you have to divide by 72,000,000 for the Roshi calculation(Because 72,000,000 moons= 1 sun)(Our sun anyway.) So yeah, whatever.

 @Hitsusatsu"(This might be a good time to mention that Goku had a ki of 150 Million when he fought Freeza. (In daizenshuu 7, scan is shown further down)"

Even with a PL much higher, it still doesn't matter. This is already covered in my first post.

@Hitsusatsu"And hey Freeza is a dude who even when scarred sh#%tless by Goku, hesitates, and screws up his attack, he still manages to destroy the core of a planet and destroy it that way, as he did on Namek. 
Freeza also has enough power to easily split the mantle of a planet. "

Alright. Cool. Whatever. I don't really see how relevant this is.

@Hitsusatsu"Again, we see when Freeza comes to Earth he easily can destroy it with a simple blast from space."

Well no duh. He can destroy the planet 72X in his first form.

@Hitsusatsu"And we know early android saga Trunks and Vegeta have much greater ki, enough so that any serious blast could destroy a planet if they are not careful. 
And Android 18 defeated Vegeta and Trunks without any trouble"

Yeah. Doesn't really matter much.

@Hitsusatsu"Now this Brings us to Cell. We know that Cell first form after absorbing human ki's is stronger than android C18 or C17, then after absorbing C17 he becomes much much stronger still, and after absorbing C18 he becomes much stronger as well. Then Cell achieve's his Super Perfect form   this is his strongest level and is indescribably more powerful then those who we know to be confirmed planet busters. How much stronger? Well we have a direct statement that says he is able to destroy the entire solar system in one blast, said blast has subsequently been called the "Solar Kamehameha" in DBZ video games."

@hitsusatsu"in fact Cell's very power before he achieved his Super Perfect state was enough to destroy the Earth by simply being there in a powered up state."

First of all, the statement " entire solar system in one blast" is nowhere in that scan. It does say the entire solar system, but that's it. It's clear that he means the entire solar system with all/most of his power. Besides, it's not that great of a feat, considering the statement "Destroying the solar system" is practically synonymous with "destroying 1 sun", considering that over 99% of mass in a solar system is the sun.

@Hitsusatsu"Now Goku as a ssj2 far all the powerful beings I have shown thus far, and ssj3 exceeds this even more.  

Hitsusatsu"The power of ssj3 characters is such that they can rupture the universal walls of ROSAT by channeling their ki into a scream. Now note to that the ROSAT is a completely different, sealed universe than the one Earth is in, in the Cell saga Piccolo says that if an individual go's in to many times then the entrance between the two dimensions disappears and the individual is stuck there forever, with no possible way out. So this means beings who are somewhat comparable to Solar System Busting Cell cannot escape the ROSAT, making the feat done by 2 ssj3 characters quite impressive.   "

Well, ok, I'll humor you. Superman basically did this when he could break force fields that could mend the fabric of reality. And that's when he was a kid, and he's exponentially stronger as an adult. So, whatever relevance this has, Superman did that too, pretty easily.

@Hitsusatsu"Now the ki Goku has at ssj3 is very near that of Majin Buu's. 
And Buu is described as universal in power. Here Buu is said to be able to destroy the universe then come to the holy realm to destroy it as well."

What is exactly meant by the statement "Then the universe will be destroyed" we will never know. He clearly meant by going from planet to planet, or galaxy to Galaxy, destroying them one at a time, or else Buu would've just destroyed the universe and been done with it. Even if, and I mean IF, Buu could destroy the universe in one blast, Superman of Earth 5 survived an attack that destroyed an entire universe, and he wasn't even really hurt.

@Hitsusatsu"Here Piccolo says that Buu will kill everything in the universe if he is not stopped. "

Alright, we've already been through this.

"In the anime Buu is seen as being able to destroy Galaxies, which confirms my theory that before Buu there were 16 Galaxies/ Galactic regions of Space in the physical universe around earth in DBU. After Buu killed or absorbed the Kaiosin's of the North, West, and South there are only 4 Galxies left, which make up the Eastern Quadrant of the Universe ruled by our Eastern Kaioshin (in Daizenshuu).  It is clear 12 Galaxies are now gone after the few years Buu roamed the universe. Also note Majin Buu has the ability to implode the universe by destroying dimensions. (JP episode 270)"

I don't see how this is going to help Goku beat Superman when Superman's durability is greater than that of 100 galaxy's, and the whole quasar thing.

@Hitsusatsu" And here we see the battle between Buu and Goku decides the very fate of the universe. "

Whatever that means. We've been through this.

@Hitsusatsu"And in fact at full power Goku can destroy Buu in an instant Goku by simply powering up to Super Saiyan Level 3 exhibits enormous power. The Earth trembles as Goku begins to transform  "

That's what he says, but is that what happens?

@Hitsusatsu"Goku's tremendous ki is felt in the Kaioshin holy sphere, a place in the afterlife beyond the universe, beyond Enma Daio's, beyond the 1 million KM snake way, beyond all other Kai worlds, and even beyond heaven. Kibit simply cannot believe that a ki can be powerful enough to reach the Holy Sphere from the physical universe. Again, we see Goku's ki is so tremendous he startles Gohan who is training in the Holy Kaioshin Realm"

And Superman broke infinity with his speed. I really don't see how this stuff is relevant in a fight.

@Hitsusatsu"It is with this raw power of ki that I think (in combination with his other abilities, which I will show) will allow him to be victorious in this battle.  
Its also interesting to note that DBZ does not end with the Buu saga, and that Goku gets much more powerful from the defeat of Majin Buu to the time when Uub is encountered at the end of Z."

Right... And even with a PL of trillions, and in some cases 1 Quintillion, Goku's PL is not nearly enough to hurt PC Superman, not even scratch him.

@Hitsusatsu"Ki can be used invisibly, this is called kiai 
Goku can use kiai waves defensively to block Superman's attacks, as Ten does to the Dodonpa of Tao Pai Pai. "

Not really relevant against a foe like Superman, considering he can sense a persons very prescence with his super hearing.


@Hitsusatsu"Ki can be used as an offensive explosive wave, as Vegeta likes to do and as Ma Jr. did below."

That's great. Kind of irrelevant, but great.

@Hitsusatsu"Ki also has the property of being able to erase someone's existence, if it is strong enough even a magic immortal such as Buu. "

Then why wasn't he erased from existence? That scan is not only a fan translation, but also, he wasn't speaking about erasing from existence, he was talking about non-existence by being blown into microscopic dust.  

@Hitsusatsu "Goku can read thoughts"

@Hitsusatsu "Goku can also use waves of kiai offensively"


@Hitsusatsu"Kiai can also be used to explode an opponent from the inside"

And Superman can go back in time and kill baby Goku, or he can fry Goku from 100,000 miles away with his heat vision. But that doesn't really make for a fight, now does it? Besides, Nobody in DBZ is nearly as durable as Superman.

@Hitsusatsu "As I have posted, we know Roshi  can destroy the moon with his power, yet he  is completely useless against Nappa and Saiyan saga Vegeta. Likewise those spamable moon busters Piccolo is capable of have no effect on Nappa. We can therefore say Nappa, with his lowly ki of about 6 thousand, has moon + durability."

Not necessarily. I will say this about DragonBall durability; There durability in terms of Energy Projection is great. However, nobody in DragonBall has very much strength. Therefore, naturally, there durability to physical attacks is much lower than there durability to energy attacks.

@Hitsusatsu"Now attacks that are capable of destroying the moon cannot harm Nappa, yet Goku's fists can? 
Yes, and this is a clear indicator that punches and kicks from characters like Goku and Vegeta are more powerful than moon busting blasts by Roshi and Piccolo

How can this be you ask? Z characters have no real huge strength feats (though Goku did push apart a mountain in the anime) so whats the deal? 
Well the answer is simple, the power in the limbs of Z characters come from amping up ki into their attacks not from physical lifting strength. This is hard to swallow by many American comic fans who rank every one on what they can lift, well its different in DBZ, and manga in general. Makes sense as well, just ask yourself who can hit harder, a champion bench presser or bruce lee? (or muhamed ali if you will) Lifting strength is not vital in determining punching/striking strength, and in fact those with superior technique (say in ju jitsu or the like) can out grapple people much stronger than they. Now lets see what these DBZ folks can do. "

1. Right, because DragonBall Durability to physical attacks is much lower to that compared to their durability for energy attacks, clearly.

2. Wrong, it is a clear indicator that their durability is much higher in terms in energy projection then that of physical strength, otherwise Goku would be able to lift more then a lame 40 tons.

3. Generally, the answer would clearly be that the fighter would hit much harder than the man who bench presses a lot. But outside of our human terms, when Goku's lifting strength is only .00000000000000075% of Superman's, (And this was calculated at a PL of 2 trillion) there becomes a huge problem. No matter whether an ant trained to be a fighter or not, it's still going to lose to me squishing it.(hence, Goku being literally as weak as an ant compared to Superman.)

@Hitsusatsu "Lets look way back in DB for a quick second, where we see that Arale, whom is actually confirmed as being able to split apart the earth with a punch, punches General Blue all the way across the earth, yet he survives."

And this is still when carrot and his goons were breathing on the moon. Almost everything in DB is irrelavent. But just to clarify, it doesn't matter, even if it is relevant.

@Hitsusatsu "Freeza has the durability to survive the Genki dama which took power from the Z senshi, plants and animals, Namek, and all of the the surrounding planets, this attack could surely destroy a planet. Freeza tanked this just fine."

@Hitsusatsu "Freeza also kicked away Vegeta's planet destroying blast like nothing."

@Hitsusatsu "Therefore kick by Freeza >>>>>>>>>>>>> planet buster by Vegeta" 

Still, that's only relevant to durability in terms of energy projection, not physical strength. They are two completely different things.

@Hitsusatsu "Also after this Freeza while more than half dead, cut in half, worn out from his battle, deprived of all energy, and really already on deaths door still was able to tank planet Namek exploding at point blank range. "

Not very suprising considering his first form could tank earth 72X.

@Hitsusatsu "Yes a planet exploding failed to vaporize his body. 
Yet a sword swing by trunks is able to kill him, and note mecha freeza is not at all weaker than namek freeza "

Which only reaffirms the fact of the different types of durability.

@Hitsusatsu "Yes, an attack that was more powerful than a planet exploding failed to even pierce Goku's pinky finger. Goku's finger, boosted with ki, has greater than planet durability in the adroid saga. 
This just makes sense, a punch by Cell would be greater in magnitude than a planet destroying blast by Freeza, and Cell could easily punch or kick away a planet destroying blast be Freeza. In the same way a punch by a ssj3 should be more powerful than the solar system destroying blast of Cell, and of course ssj3 Goku would be able to punch or kick away Cell's solar system destroying attack."

Goku was much stronger than trunks at that point, and you are also mixing the types of durability, which is incorrect.

@Hitsusatsu "Above we see the impact from Gotenks smash creates a crater comparable to a meteor strike, and Gotenks is basically just fooling around. And Buu's body is very elastic, meaning most of the force was absorbed by buu .This indicates if Gotenkls had really wanted to he could surely have destroyed the earth. Below we see a Bloodlusted supes punch WW from beyond orbit to the ground. Because she travels through orbit, her impact is increased due to velocity and gravity, but still the impact is much smaller than Gotenks"

That scan is irrelavent for 2 reasons; It's Post-Crisis(Pre C was waaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy stronger) and he's brainwashed be maxwell lord.

@Hitsusatsu "With a single punch Gotenks is able to destroy a city as a side effect of punching Buu"

That's irrelevant... It's not that powerful.

@Hitsusatsu "Theoretically the physical strikes of Goku should almost be equal to his energy attack output, as he is able to put all his ki into his fist.   "

He puts all his Ki in one fist, it doesn't mean that it's anywhere near his energy level output.   " the physical strikes of Goku should almost be equal to his energy attack output" Who says? What theory? And piccolo getting hammered through like that just proves an even bigger gap between physical and energy projection durability.

@Hitsusatsu" 1.And I do believe Goku can fly at FTL speeds, based off some distance over time feats and scaling  using the mach 17 on snake way, and 5000 plv correlation (even though it was likely mach 30) you can prove he becomes ftl with some math.  lightspeed= mach 880, 000  therefore goku was (880,000/17) 51764x slower than light at this point  that means theoretically he needs to be pvl (51764x 5000) 258 823 529, now his pvl when he FIRST turned ssj was 150 000 000 (official, in daizenshu) so its clear he vastly surpasses the lightspeed threshold for  travelling speed (and I am using a linear correlation, it is likely closer to exponential based on the time he ran it with a plv << 1000, then ran it again with a plv of around 6,000), and yet Goku combat speed is much much faster still.  
2.In fact here we see Goku escaping from a  paralyzing light the instant it exploded. Clearly FTL.  Also nice to note Piccolo compare Goku's existence to that of a god."

@hitsusatsu"Now PC Supes can go many many times lightspeed in flight, and has on occasion dodged a single punch from the flash. He has also appeared invisible to humans (so can early DB characters) but I doubt Superman's ability to punch, kick, and parry many attacks at high speeds throughout the course of a sustained martial arts exchange like Goku can. Below we see Superman who had to react quickly only moved near the speed of light."

1. Alright, if you're right, then at a Power Level of 2,000,000,000,000, Goku's treavelling speed would be about 7727.2 XLight, while Superman's would be more like 70,967,741,935 XLight. (See earlier post)

2. Goku moving only just above light in combat speed? And Piccolo saying Goku is like a God is irrelevant.

3. That scan is irrelevant, considering it's Post-Crisis, and the fact that he didn't need to go any faster. In combat, Superman is shown travelling through time, which requires him to go thousands of times the speed of Light[1], which proves that Superman is at least thousands of times the speed of light in combat, and also, considering he didn't go through time while travelling at like 70,967,741,935 XLight, you could say that Superman is going even faster in combat than  70,967,741,935 XLight,  so I really don't see your point.

"I think Goku's  big speed edge comes in the speed at which he moves his limbs, parry's attacks, and fights overall.  Lets take a look: Roshi Exhibits great speed while fighting Kurrirn at the 21st Budokai, where his ki level was around 139"

Right, even though there is no big speed edge, like I've just proved... Besides, those scans of the 21st budokai don't really prove anything.

"Now note Goku's powerlevel increased 1 Million fold from the time of the 21st, to the time he fought Freeza. "" Now note that Roshi can see and catch machine gun fire." But he cannot see Goku's movements. Now Goku is much larger than bullets, so for Roshi to not be able to see him means Goku must be much much faster than Machine Gun fire, very early on in DB. "

So what? This doesn't actually prove anyhting.

"And Goku from the beginning can dodge bullets, and lasers and move so fast he makes many afterimages, and even makes 8 tangible arms via speed.   Via speed uses 8 TANGIBLE ARMS"

"oku easily dodges bullets. Uses Nyiobo to deflect bullets"

"Now Goku's speed keeps increasing with every villain he faces. Until finally he go's to train with Popo."
"Goku learns to surpass lightning speed training, now lightning can range from massively hypersonic to 1/2 the speed of light. "

Again with the stuff that doesn't really matter.

1. I addressed this issue in my first post

@Hitsusatsu"below we see Kami, who was much much more powerful than Popo, can't even follow Goku's movements, even with his godly eyes. "

Ok, Kami isn't really a god. he's just a namekian, and a pretentious prick for calling himself god. But even still, it doesn't really matter.

@Hitsusatsu"Now we know Picollo is able to destroy the moon at (or at least very near) the speed of light. Light takes 1.3 second from the Earth to the moon, Piccolo destroyed it in a second or two, but of course this counts the time for the light from the explosion to refract back to us. Now we see radditz dodge Picolo's signature light of death, a move  as fast or likely even faster than the no name one he used to destroy the moon, since Piccolo was sure no one could doge this special move it must be his fastest. And Saiyan Saga Vegeta and Nappa are much faster than Radditz Goku saiyan saga is faster still.  
 Now there is proof that like the characters, the beams they use increase in speed, as seen here with Freeza.  As Piccolo who destroyed the moon at light speed and fired a faster attack at Raditz, cannot see Freeza's beams ". And it continues on, till he gets faster and faster.

Yeah, I already went over all of this stuff in my post.

"Another major advantage Goku has in his combat speed is the use of  Shunkan Ido (Instant Transmission) IT has been shown to go from earth to the afterlife (and in doing so passing the 1 mill KM snake way and Enma Daio's) INSTANTLY. Then IT was used again and this time went from a place beyond heaven, past the 1mill KM's, all the kai planets and all the afterlife, to Namek, which is in another galaxy than earth. The idea that it is only light speed comes from the english dub error and is wrong. It is truly instant and Goku uses it in combat, and will against Superman. Now Goku was even able to pick out the energy source of Bulma, a normal human, from where Kami's lookout was when she was at a random place on earth. I doubt he will have any trouble using it against Superman.  Ki is just life force / spiritual energy, in DBZ all living things have some of it, though only the trained  Z Senshi can control and manipulate it.Goku uses IT based on Bulma's ki, bulma is just an average human and he is able to pick her out of a huge population.  "

Yeah, I agree that's how it works.

Yeah, Goku has got superior fighting skills. Kind of irrelevant though, condidering Superman's strength.

"Now superman may be an average fighter, but he has historically had trouble with those who are much more skilled then he. As seen when the Karate Kid, who is a normal human, was able to use Superman's own strength and momentum against him"

"Goku should likewise be more than skilled enough to use his superior martial arts skills to trip Superman up and use his own strength and momentum against him. Doing this in combination with using instant movement, and invisible kiai waves should give Goku the opportunity to open up points during the battle in which he can use his powerful energy projections to defeat Superman."

Not only is this Pre-Crisis and Superman was brainwashed, but it's also PIS. It's about as authoritative as Batman fighting Superman. Or Black Panther beating the Silver Surfer. That kind of stuff.

1. Like I said, irrelevant.

"the force of a black hole, Superman has also been momentarily dazed by a super nova before  http://img156.imageshack.us/i/superman24303xt8.jpg/ ... shock even him  http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Precrisis/?action=view&current=supermandurability1.jpg"

That's more powerful than Cell destroying a Solar System, besides, I've already proven Superman's durability with the Quasars. And he was only knocked back by that Quintillions of tons gravity, which is more than DBZ characters can handle, since their durability to physical attacks is very weak.

"Time travel is also an ineffective tool to use against DBZ characters, as Trunks explained if he were to go back in time and kill the androids, then return to the present, the androids would still remain. In DBU the different time streams do not effect each other."

That's not how it works in the DCU. It's only one timeline. Which means that Superman could kill little baby Goku, go back to his DCU timeline and be perfectly happy.

And Superman can only time travel because in PC DCU physics travelling fast enough will allow one to travel backwards in time, it is not so in DBU. If DC physics applied then Goku could also time travel. 
Think about this, who has the edge in combat mentality, a tight wearing do gooder or the greatest member of a warrior race who has fighting etched into their blood? 
Both are powerful, sure, but Goku knows what its like to kill, and has no reservations about going all out from the start, while Superman's cheery attitude sometimes gets in the way of him going for blood, as seen here:  

1. If DCU physics aplied, It's still completely unproven that Goku could travel through time. How about this; DC physics for DC characters, and DB physics for DB characters.

2.Irrelevant scan.

"In Conclusion, Goku will use his massive edge in combat ability in combination with instant movement to overwhelm Superman, and then after making use of different kiai waves and attacks to stun the Man of Steel, Goku will unleash the fabled Kamehameha and destroy the Man of Yesteryear. Goku wins."

No, that's wrong almost every category. Superman is the clear victor here. 

EDIT:That's basically all of the word content to Hitsusatsu's post.
[1] Superboy moving 1000's light to travel back in time (While Superman has buun shown to do this in combat)  

Post by LiquidSwords (24 posts) See mini bio Level 9

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