Goku vs Superman

Topic started by hitsusatsu11 on Sept. 18, 2010. Last post by Sonata 2 years, 9 months ago.
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20
 Superman Vs Goku   
 (SSJ3 Goku Vs Pre-Crisis Superman)



For Goku: DragonBall Manga, Anime, and anime fillers.

For Superman:Any Pre or Post Crisis feats

DragonBall Ground-Rules

·          Raditz is moving nearly light speed at a Power Level of 1200.[1]

·          Ki is Life Force.[2]

·          Everybody has Ki[2]

·          Ki is not magic.[2]

·          Instant Transmission is Faster Than Light.[3]

·          Movies are not allowed.

·          GT not allowed

·          Anime fillers count 

  • Halo Goku can breath in space

[1] Lightning, according to many scientists, can move up to 0.5x the speed of light, but on an average would be about 0.32x the speed of light.[4] While Mr. Popo could move at lightning speed[5], Raditz is much stronger than Mr.Popo, it could be concievable that Raditz could be moving almost near the speed of light.

[2]Volume 36, Chapter 8, Pages 1-2

[3] DragonBall Z "Broly...The Legendary Super Saiyin" 12:05-12:25

[4] http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/wea00/wea00189.htm

[5]DragonBall Vomume 14, Chapter 8, Pages 6-8

Superman Ground-Rules

·          Superman Gold One Million must not be mentioned

·          Superman KC must not be mentioned

·          The Sword Of Superman , must not be mentioned


-Uninhabited earth 
-Under yellow sun 
No flaming, and no extreme fanboyism (At least don't let it reflect in your posts)          
Everyone can post 1 argument 
Post by hitsusatsu11 (10,747 posts) See mini bio Level 20

The Case For Goku

This fight has become huge all over the internet, and has become somewhat of an "Anime vs Comics", and "East vs West" thing, and has even been described as a battle between opposing world views. I however believe this is just an ordinary vs match between two fictional characters, and should be approached as such. 
I will state my case for Goku.  

Now to understand Dragonball is to understand that no one in Dragonball posses a unique skill set like western superhero's, where each hero as a different origin and power and weakness ect. In Dragonball your destructive ability, speed, ect. is generally based on the amount of Ki you posses. Sure some characters also use magic, and psychic attacks, but what I refer to here is the correlation between ki (powerlevel, or battle power) to one's ability. In Dragonball if character A can destroy a certain object when he possesses a certain amount of ki (powerlevel) then character B can also destroy the same object as long as he has a ki equal to or surpassing character A, regardless of whether or not character B has ever actually destroyed said object. Now some of you who are unfamiliar with Dragonball and do not understand its power progressions, and as such brand this ABC logic as false or not valid, but I am sorry you are quite wrong. This is the fundamental principle behind Dragonball, and if you refuse to accept it then you are really just wasting your time debating DB, as you will tell me Master Roshi is more powerful than Nappa, and Freeza is more powerful than Cell.  
With that being said lets look at what characters from the Dragonball manga and Dragonball Z anime are capable of, and see where Goku fits in. 

Destructive Ability

Now Dragonball is a franchise where its characters are known for its destructive capabilities, and this is one of Goku's major points of strength that I believe will be instrumental in helping him defeat Superman. 
Here we see Master Roshi, with a tiny power level of 139, completely destroy the moon using his Kamehameha technique. 

Now Piccolo with a powerlevel of about 408 again destroys the moon (which was recreated by Kami Sama after Roshi destroyed it) with a quick, spamable attack. His fully charged, fully powered beams would be much more powerful. (And it is important to note the speed at which the beam reaches the moon, and that such moon busting caliber attacks are useless against even Nappa. I will deal with these points further down)

 Now we see the power of King Vegeta, able to destroy planets with ease by merely flicking his cape.  
His son the Prince, is equally capable of such destruction, and in fact was stated as surpassing his father. 
Here he destroys the Planet Arilia  

 And here Vegeta, with a ki of about 18,00 is shaking the earth with his power, crumbling mountains in the process. 


  And of course Saiyan Saga Vegeta had the power to destroy the Earth. And as we all know Goku's beam overpowered Vegeta's planet destroying one.

Now lets for a minute look at the multipliers for the different levels of Super Saiyan. Ssj1 is 50 times base from multiplier, ssj2 is 100 times base form, and ssj3 is 400 times base form.  

Now this would indicate that if Vegeta would have gone ssj1 at that point way back in the Saiyan Saga, he would have had the power to at least destroy 50 Earths. Likewise if he went ssj2 he could have destroyed 100 Earths. And if Goku would have went ssj3 at the time of the beam struggle then he would theoretically have at least enough power to destroy the earth 400 times over. This is applying the ssj multipliers way way back in the Saiyan Saga when DBZ characters were comparably weak to their later versions, and already I believe this destructive power to far surpass Modern Superman, which is why I wished PC Superman to be involved here. 
Now this brings us to Freeza, who in first form easily destroyed the planet Namek, and in said form has a battle power of 530,000. Which is only a small fraction of his final power. 
(This might be a good time to mention that Goku had a ki of 150 Million when he fought Freeza. (In daizenshuu 7, scan is shown further down)
And hey Freeza is a dude who even when scarred sh#%tless by Goku, hesitates, and screws up his attack, he still manages to destroy the core of a planet and destroy it that way, as he did on Namek. 
Freeza also has enough power to easily split the mantle of a planet. 

Again, we see when Freeza comes to Earth he easily can destroy it with a simple blast from space. 

And we know early android saga Trunks and Vegeta have much greater ki, enough so that any serious blast could destroy a planet if they are not careful. 
And Android 18 defeated Vegeta and Trunks without any trouble


Now this Brings us to Cell. We know that Cell first form after absorbing human ki's is stronger than android C18 or C17, then after absorbing C17 he becomes much much stronger still, and after absorbing C18 he becomes much stronger as well. Then Cell achieve's his Super Perfect form   this is his strongest level and is indescribably more powerful then those who we know to be confirmed planet busters. How much stronger? Well we have a direct statement that says he is able to destroy the entire solar system in one blast, said blast has subsequently been called the "Solar Kamehameha" in DBZ video games. 
In fact Cell's very power before he achieved his Super Perfect state was enough to destroy the Earth by simply being there in a powered up state.

Now Goku as a ssj2 far outpowers all the powerful beings I have shown thus far, and ssj3 exceeds this even more.  
The power of ssj3 characters is such that they can rupture the universal walls of ROSAT by channeling their ki into a scream. Now note to that the ROSAT is a completely different, sealed universe than the one Earth is in, in the Cell saga Piccolo says that if an individual go's in to many times then the entrance between the two dimensions disappears and the individual is stuck there forever, with no possible way out. So this means beings who are somewhat comparable to Solar System Busting Cell cannot escape the ROSAT, making the feat done by 2 ssj3 characters quite impressive.  

Now the ki Goku has at ssj3 is very near that of Majin Buu's. 
And Buu is described as universal in power. 
Here Buu is said to be able to destroy the universe then come to the holy realm to destroy it as well.  

Here Piccolo says that Buu will kill everything in the universe if he is not stopped. 

In the anime Buu is seen as being able to destroy Galaxies, which confirms my theory that before Buu there were 16 Galaxies/ Galactic regions of Space in the physical universe around earth in DBU. After Buu killed or absorbed the Kaiosin's of the North, West, and South there are only 4 Galxies left, which make up the Eastern Quadrant of the Universe ruled by our Eastern Kaioshin (in Daizenshuu).  It is clear 12 Galaxies are now gone after the few years Buu roamed the universe. Also note Majin Buu has the ability to implode the universe by destroying dimensions. (JP episode 270)

We see Buu destroy a galaxy here in 3 frames, which corresponds to about 4 seconds in the anime.

And here we see the battle between Buu and Goku decides the very fate of the universe. 

And in fact at full power Goku can destroy Buu in an instant 

Goku by simply powering up to Super Saiyan Level 3 exhibits enormous power. 
The Earth trembles as Goku begins to transform 

Goku's tremendous ki is felt in the Kaioshin holy sphere, a place in the afterlife beyond the universe, beyond Enma Daio's, beyond the 1 million KM snake way, beyond all other Kai worlds, and even beyond heaven. Kibit simply cannot believe that a ki can be powerful enough to reach the Holy Sphere from the physical universe.

Again, we see Goku's ki is so tremendous he startles Gohan who is training in the Holy Kaioshin Realm 

It is with this raw power of ki that I think (in combination with his other abilities, which I will show) will allow him to be victorious in this battle.  
Its also interesting to note that DBZ does not end with the Buu saga, and that Goku gets much more powerful from the defeat of Majin Buu to the time when Uub is encountered at the end of Z.  

Other Uses of Ki

Now I have shown the magnitude and power of Goku's ki, I will show the other ways it can be used. 
Ki can be used invisibly, this is called kiai 
Goku can use kiai waves defensively to block Superman's attacks, as Ten does to the Dodonpa of Tao Pai Pai. 

Ki can be used as an offensive explosive wave, as Vegeta likes to do and as Ma Jr. did below.

Ki also has the property of being able to erase someone's existence, if it is strong enough even a magic immortal such as Buu. 

Goku can read thoughts

Goku can also use waves of kiai offensively      

 Kiai can also be used to explode an opponent from the inside 

I think these techniques will also be of use in defeating Superman  

Striking Power and Durability

Now the energy power of Z characters is well established, I will speak now on the power they have in their blows, and also on their durability. 
As I have posted, we know Roshi  can destroy the moon with his power, yet he  is completely useless against Nappa and Saiyan saga Vegeta. Likewise those spamable moon busters Piccolo is capable of have no effect on Nappa. We can therefore say Nappa, with his lowly ki of about 6 thousand, has moon + durability.

 Roshi and his moonbusting useless against the saiyans
 Roshi and his moonbusting useless against the saiyans
Now attacks that are capable of destroying the moon cannot harm Nappa, yet Goku's fists can? 
Yes, and this is a clear indicator that punches and kicks from early characters like Goku and Vegeta are more powerful than moon busting blasts by Roshi and Piccolo. 
How can this be you ask? Z characters have no real huge strength feats (though Goku did push apart a mountain in the anime) so whats the deal? 
Well the answer is simple, the power in the limbs of Z characters come from amping up ki into their attacks not from physical lifting strength. This is hard to swallow by many American comic fans who rank every one on what they can lift, well its different in DBZ, and manga in general. Makes sense as well, just ask yourself who can hit harder, a champion bench presser or bruce lee? (or muhamed ali if you will) Lifting strength is not vital in determining punching/striking strength, and in fact those with superior technique (say in ju jitsu or the like) can out grapple people much stronger than they.
Now lets see what these DBZ folks can do. 
Lets look way back in DB for a quick second, where we see that Arale, whom is actually confirmed as being able to split apart the earth with a punch, punches General Blue all the way across the earth, yet he survives. 

I am fairly sure if you asked Akira Toriyama who hits harder, Arale or SSJ Goku, he would say Goku. 
Now lets take a look at Freeza. 
Freeza has the durability to survive the Genki dama which took power from the Z senshi, plants and animals, Namek, and all of the the surrounding planets, this attack could surely destroy a planet. Freeza tanked this just fine.   

Freeza also kicked away Vegeta's planet destroying blast like nothing. 


Therefore kick by Freeza >>>>>>>>>>>>> planet buster by Vegeta in terms of force of magnitude.
Also after this Freeza while more than half dead, cut in half, worn out from his battle, deprived of all energy, and really already on deaths door still was able to tank planet Namek exploding at point blank range. 

Yes a planet exploding failed to vaporize his body. 
Yet a sword swing by trunks is able to kill him, and note mecha freeza is not at all weaker than namek freeza 

Therefore we know that the magnitude of attacking in trunks sword slash is greater than that of a planet exploding. Yes he did use a sword, but it doesn't matter really as he could just as easily killed Freeza with his fist. The point here is that Goku and other Z characters can use ki to amp up there physical blows to levels near their energy attacks and certainly greater than the magnitude necessary to destroy planets from the android saga on.
Lets see how Trunks sword slash does against Goku: 

Yes, an attack that was more powerful than a planet exploding failed to even pierce Goku's pinky finger. Goku's finger, boosted with ki, has greater than planet durability in the adroid saga. 
This just makes sense, a punch by Cell would be greater in magnitude than a planet destroying blast by Freeza, and Cell could easily punch or kick away said planet destroying blast by Freeza. In the same way a punch by a ssj3 should be more powerful than the solar system destroying blast of Cell, and of course ssj3 Goku would be able to punch or kick away Cell's solar system destroying attack.  
Lets see what some ssj3 punches look like  

Above we see the impact from Gotenks smash creates a crater comparable to a meteor strike, and Gotenks is basically just fooling around. And Buu's body is very elastic, meaning most of the force was absorbed by buu .This indicates if Gotenkls had really wanted to he could surely have destroyed the earth. Below we see a Bloodlusted supes punch WW from beyond orbit to the ground. Because she travels through orbit, her impact is increased due to velocity and gravity, but still the impact is much smaller than Gotenks' 


 With a single punch Gotenks is able to destroy a city as a side effect of punching Buu 

Theoretically the physical strikes of Goku should almost be equal to his energy attack output, as he is able to put all his ki into his fist.  

I hope that I have made a good case for Goku's punching power, and hope that I have proved that it is quite sufficient to hurt Superman. 

Combat Speed

Now first off I would like to say that there is a huge difference between combat speed and flight speed. Not to say that Goku's flight speed is not impressive, as seen here where he crosses a good part of namek very quickly  


And I do believe Goku can fly at FTL speeds, based off some distance over time feats and scaling  using the mach 17 on snake way, and 5000 plv correlation (even though it was likely mach 30) you can prove he becomes ftl with some math.  lightspeed= mach 880, 000  therefore goku was (880,000/17) 51764x slower than light at this point  that means theoretically he needs to be pvl (51764x 5000) 258 823 529, now his pvl when he FIRST turned ssj was 150 000 000 (official, in daizenshu) so its clear he vastly surpasses the lightspeed threshold for  travelling speed (and I am using a linear correlation, it is likely closer to exponential based on the time he ran it with a plv << 1000, then ran it again with a plv of around 6,000), and yet Goku's combat speed is much much faster still.  
In fact here we see Goku escaping from a  paralyzing light the instant it exploded. Clearly FTL.  Also nice to note Piccolo compare Goku's existence to that of a god.

Now PC Supes can go many many times lightspeed in flight, and has on occasion dodged a single punch from the flash. He has also appeared invisible to humans (so can early DB characters) but I highly doubt Superman's ability to punch, kick, and parry many attacks at high speeds throughout the course of a sustained martial arts exchange like Goku can. Below we see Superman who had to react quickly only moved near the speed of light.: 

 I think Goku's big speed edge comes in the speed at which he moves his limbs, parry's attacks, and fights overall.  
Lets take a look: 
Roshi Exhibits great speed while fighting Kurrirn at the 21st Budokai, where his ki level was around 139

^Roshi and Kurrirn play Rock, Paper Scissors, throw multiple attacks, parries, and moves all in 1/5 of a second. 

^An entire mini martial arts battle is fought in 1 second flat, at this very early point in DB.  
Now note Goku's powerlevel increased 1 Million fold from the time of the 21st, to the time he fought Freeza. 

Now note that Roshi can see and catch machine gun fire. 

But he cannot see Goku's movements. Now Goku is much larger than bullets, so for Roshi to not be able to see him means Goku must be much much faster than Machine Gun fire, very early on in DB. 

And Goku from the beginning can dodge bullets, and lasers and move so fast he makes many afterimages, and even makes 8 tangible arms via speed.  
 Via speed uses 8 TANGIBLE ARMS

Goku creates multiple Zanzo-afterimages, with his speed.

 Goku dodges lasers

Uses Nyiobo to deflect bullets

Goku easily dodges bullets.
Now Goku's speed keeps increasing with every villain he faces. Until finally he go's to train with Popo.
Goku learns to surpass lightning speed training, now lightning can range from massively hypersonic to 1/2 the speed of light. 

 below we see Kami, who was much much more powerful than Popo, can't even follow Goku's movements, even with his godly eyes. 

Now we know Picollo is able to destroy the moon at (or at least very near) the speed of light. Light takes 1.3 second from the Earth to the moon, Piccolo destroyed it in a second or two, but of course this counts the time for the light from the explosion to refract back to us from the moon, essentially meaning the time we see is the time for the beam to get to the moon and for the reflecting light to come back to earth. 

Now we see radditz dodge Picolo's signature light of death, a move as fast or likely even faster than the no name one he used to destroy the moon, since Piccolo was sure no one could doge this special move it must be his fastest.

Picoclo did not say he can't believe someone would be able to tank it or deflect it, he said he couldn't believe someone could be fast enough to dodge it, showing the emphasis is on speed. 

 And Saiyan Saga Vegeta and Nappa are much faster than Radditz 

Goku saiyan saga is faster still.  
Now there is proof that like the characters, the beams they use increase in speed, as seen here with Freeza.  
As Piccolo who destroyed the moon at light speed and fired a faster attack at Raditz, cannot see Freeza's beams.

However Vegeta is powerful enough, and can thus see the beams.

And of course Goku easily dodges such beams, and as you'll here in the video, though Vegeta can see attacks that are much faster than lightspeed ones, he cannot see Goku's movements, even with his saiyan eyes.  
   And there are other examples of Ki beams moving very fast, take Vegeta's final flash. It go's far out into space much quicker than light could. 
  Enjoy the Japanese version
And at ssj2 and ssj3 Goku becomes much much faster. So much so that Namek Saga Goku would be a statue compared to his later self's speed. When a DBZ character gets higher in power, there speed increases to a point where other slightly weaker Z characters can not keep up or even follow there movements, even though they themselves are much faster than weaker incarnations of themselves who could see and react to lightspeed attacks. The cycle continues like that. 
Another thing to note is the speed at which ki is collected for the genki dama. In just a few minutes, ki from all over the universe and spirit realm were collected to make the genki dama which killed Majin Buu.  An indication of how fast ki can travel.
Another major advantage Goku has in his combat speed is the use of  Shunkan Ido (Instant Transmission) IT has been shown to go from earth to the afterlife (and in doing so passing the 1 mill KM snake way and Enma Daio's) INSTANTLY. Then IT was used again and this time went from a place beyond heaven, past the 1mill KM's, all the kai planets and all the afterlife, to Namek, which is in another galaxy than earth. The idea that it is only light speed comes from the english dub error and is wrong. It is truly instant and Goku uses it in combat, and will against Superman. 

 Here Goku uses IT to instantly dodge Buu
 Here Goku uses IT to instantly dodge Buu

 The Instant Kamehameha
 The Instant Kamehameha

Goku dodging Cell's very fast blast using IT 
Goku dodging Cell's very fast blast using IT 

 Instant Kienzan
 Instant Kienzan
Now Goku was even able to pick out the energy source of Bulma, a normal human, from where Kami's lookout was when she was at a random place on earth. I doubt he will have any trouble using it against Superman.  Ki is just life force / spiritual energy, in DBZ all living things have some of it, though only the trained  Z Senshi can control and manipulate it.
 Goku uses IT based on Bulma's ki, bulma is just an average human and he is able to pick her out of a huge population. 


Fighting Skills

I believe this is where Goku can utilize his advantage to orchestrate a win. Goku has been shown to be a master of martial arts, he was able to perform the Kamehameha technique after seeing it done once, this is a technique Muten Roshi spent 50 years mastering. Goku thinks on his feet in battle, this is seen when he exhales strongly to change the trajectory of his descent and throw off his opponent, Chappa O at the 22nd Budokai. Goku was able to actually invent a new martial arts style based on animal mimicry during the heat of battle, to counter Muten Roshi's Sui Ken (drunkenfist) at the 21st Budokai.  In addition to fighting entire battles at very high speeds and blocking, parrying and countering attacks with blinding speed, Goku also utilizes grappling moves (as seen when he put Ten in the Boston Crab move) and many flips in battle. 
Goku flipping the giant Ma Jr.

Goku flipping Gilan
 Goku ingeniously exhaling to change his trajectory against Chappa O  

Goku putting Ten in a Boston Crab (or Walls of Jericho) 

 Goku is able to use his martial arts knowledge to hit in just the right spot to knock Chapp O out at the 23rd Budokai, without using any of his strength.

Very similar to the paralyzing strike Roshi used on Manwolf at the 22nd Budokai 

Goku using his newly invented monkey style
To counter the Sui Ken-Drunken fist of Muten Roshi, goku adapts and invents monkey mimicry style to effectively counter, in the middle of a battle. 


Now superman may be an average fighter, but he has historically had trouble with those who are much more skilled then he. 
As seen when the Karate Kid, who is a normal human, was able to use Superman's own strength and momentum against him. 
Goku should likewise be more than skilled enough to use his superior martial arts skills to trip Superman up and use his own strength and momentum against him. Doing this in combination with using instant movement, and invisible kiai waves should give Goku the opportunity to open up points during the battle in which he can use his powerful energy projections to defeat Superman.   


Superman is a kryptonian who's powers are like a solar battery. He gains and stores tremendous power from the yellow sun, and uses those powers for the greater good. However Goku is a warrior through and through, he lives for fighting, and just has battle experience and skill that out classes Supes. Superman is very powerful, but you cannot say he has destructive power greater than Goku, Superman has sneezed so hard (due to mxy's powder forcing him to sneeze uncontrollably) that he has put out a solar system. However Superman's powers are biological, so when he sneezed at full power that was his full power, he cannot intricately control the magnitude of his attack like Goku. The full power of Superman's super breath is solar system level, his heat vision likely more. I believe based on evidence and logic coming from the DBZ manga and anime that Goku's destructive power is far greater than this, and that he should have more than enough ki necessary to destroy a galaxy, which could kill Superman.  I believe PC superman has also been knocked out by the force of a black hole, Superman has also been momentarily dazed by a super nova before  http://img156.imageshack.us/i/superman24303xt8.jpg/ and Superman says that a supershock capable of moving a world can shock even him  http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Precrisis/?action=view&current=supermandurability1.jpg while this is a testament to his durability, it also proves he is not completely invulnerable, so I definitely think Goku can muster enough power to be effective. And of course modern Supes has been knocked out by moonbusting, and feared for his safety when two planets were coliding, but I don't feel its fair to use Post Crisis canon Superman in a battle with Goku. Now PC Superman, this is impressive, but I believe Goku capable of dishing out much more. PC Superman has very good feats, but most of these feats were not (and are not) applicable in battle, where as everything Goku does is geared specifically for battle. In a hypothetical beam struggle, I have no doubt the Kamehameha would prove its superiority and defeat any heat vision attack sent to counter it.
Time travel is also an ineffective tool to use against DBZ characters, as Trunks explained if he were to go back in time and kill the androids, then return to the present, the androids would still remain. In DBU the different time streams do not effect each other.  


And Superman can only time travel because in PC DCU physics travelling fast enough will allow one to travel backwards in time, it is not so in DBU. If DC physics applied then Goku could also time travel. 
Think about this, who has the edge in combat mentality, a tight wearing do gooder or the greatest member of a warrior race who has fighting etched into their blood? 
Both are powerful, sure, but Goku knows what its like to kill, and has no reservations about going all out from the start, while Superman's cheery attitude sometimes gets in the way of him going for blood, as seen here:  

In Conclusion, Goku will use his massive edge in combat ability in combination with instant movement to overwhelm Superman, and then after making use of different kiai waves and attacks to stun the Man of Steel, Goku will unleash the fabled Kamehameha and destroy the Man of Yesteryear. Goku wins.  

Post by DJSNuva1 (3,347 posts) See mini bio Level 11

 The Case For Superman





Superman Vs Goku

The Definitive Essay

  Well, here it is folks, the big one. This is the most heated debate in all of the Battle Forums all over the net. You've got The Outskirts Battle Dome, ComicVine, Comic Book Universe Battles, Anime Eden, Killer-Movie Forums, and many, many others. Now, it's our turn. It's AnimeVice's turn to show the Battles community that we are, in fact, the most diverse, unbiased Battle Community on the net. How are we going to do it? By having the biggest, most problem riddled battle debate ever on our site. However, the only way to gain respect about this is for each person to use common sense, accept defeat if need be, by not trolling, and by not starting unnecessary flame wars about this debate. Feats should be sourced, comments should make sense, and you should never, ever comment this debate with the simple one liners we treat other battles like, because that is a big part of what causes these flame wars. Alright, I've said my piece, now it's time for the debate to begin. 


Alright. this is how the essay will work; I'll write articles for each of the categories for Intelligence, Strength, Speed, Durability, Energy Projection, Fighting Skills, Special Abilities and miscellaneous things, and finally a conclusion. I will be analyzing DragonBall and Superman feats and also measuring different scenarios by the Power Level of different DragonBall characters, while also accepting an ABC Logic, ( i.e Character A with a PL of X destroyed Y and Character B's Power Level is far in excess of character A) and my reasoning for this is that there is truly no unique skill set to different characters, only Ki Power Levels.



Superman's intelligence is far beyond that of any normal man. In one instance, he was able to instantly pick up an ancient language and understand it.[1] While Goku, on the other hand, is quite literally as gullible and dumb as a rock. While holding Raditz, Goku actually let him go because he believed what Raditz was telling him.[2] This demonstrates his gullibility, and how he can be easily tricked. While fighting Kid Buu, Goku considered that it actually was Mr. Satan's Ki that was bringing him to his knees.[3] This demonstrates the idiocy of Goku. Superman, while playing a game of chess was able to beat a chess computer that could think of "a million moves at once" Superman was able to defeat this computer by "thinking faster", in a game of speed chess[4] This demonstrates the intelligence of Superman's ability to think extremely quickly. It would be quite fair to say that Superman could think of a million moves at once, in battle, giving him a MidNighter type ability, but in all probability even greater than that. It should be noted, though, that while being an idiot, many consider Goku to be a fighting genius.[5]While later, I will be using Power Levels and such, no matter how high of a Power Level one has in DragonBall, it never seems to make their brain super, so I've left them out for this category. Even still, while being a fighting genius, Superman beating a game of speed-chess while thinking more than a million moves a second, the pieces moving so fast all you see is a blur, Superman clearly has the edge for intelligence.

EDGE: Superman.



Alright. Here's where we get into something I like to call "DBZ Math" where we start really talking about strength comparisons and Power levels. The last time Goku's Power Level was really measured was in SSJ1 in the Frieza Saga. It was said to be 150,000,000, making his base at that point about 3,000,000. That's if you believe the

SSJ1 Base X50

SSJ2 Base X100

SSJ3 Base X400

Which I will be using for all of my calculations. Now I could talk all day about how All-Star Superman lifted 200 Quintillion tons,[6] But I'm not going to. Because I don't need to. Superman has moved the moon to earth and back, [7]   which weighs about 81 Billion tons,[8] can shatter planets with his hands,[9] can relatively easily hurl a planet long distances,[10] could move "A galaxy's worth of planets"(but let's just say 12) across the universe, relatively easily[11] et cetera. I could go on, for a really, really long time, but I don't really need to. Now for Goku's strength. A few volumes after the Frieza Saga, Goku is training with King Kai yet again. Now, Goku couldn't lift 10 tons without turning SSJ1.[12] Now I know some of you out there might be saying "Oh but!" "King Kai's planets gravity is 10X that of Earth!"[13] Alright then, let's just say that they weren't compensating for the 10X gravity in their statements. We'll make Goku's strength 100 tons before SSJ1. Hell, just to give a buffer, let's say 150 tons. We know that Goku's base was over 3,000,000 in this instance, since it is about 7-8 volumes ahead of the Frieza Saga. Mind you, there are only about 6 more volumes after this instance before the DragonBall Manga is over, because there is only 42 volumes. Let's say Goku's base then was 5,000,000 (it could've   been higher or lower, I'm not really sure, nobody is) at the time. Now it's time for the DBZ Math.

Base 5,000,000 PL = 150 Tons.

SSJ1 250,000,000 PL = 7500 Tons

SSJ2 500,000,000 PL = 15,000 Tons

SSJ3 2,000,000,000 PL = 60,000 Tons

Now let's look at Superman's strength. We know the moon weighs 81 billion tons. Let's take a look at it all;

Superman moving the moon; 81,000,000,000 Tons(81 Billion tons)

Superman hurling a planet(Let's say that planets = Size of earth);  

6,585,000,000,000,000,000,000(6.6 Sextillion Tons)


Moving twelve planets; 79,020,000,000,000,000,000,000(79 Sextillion Tons)


Now some of you might be saying, "Well, SSJ3 Goku's PL could be up 2 trillions!!!"(Which is extremely doubtful) Alright, let's calculate his strength of lifting at a PL of 2,000,000,000,000. Divide it by 5,000,000, then multiply it by 150. That leaves you with 60,000,000 Tons. Compare that to Superman's weakest strength feat that I've mentioned here, and you get;

Superman        (Weakest)            81,000,000,000 Tons

Goku PL 2,000,000,000,000 = 60,000,000 Tons.

Superman        (Strongest)         79,020,000,000,000,000,000,000(79 Sextillion Tons)(Compared to strongest feat shown here)


That's how low it is in comparison;


That's virtually equivalent to;

.00000000000000075% the strength of Superman as shown. It is fair to say, Goku is literally as weak as an ant compared to Superman in the strength department.


It's perfectly clear who wins the strength Category.


EDGE: Superman by FAR.



Let's start out with Instant Transmission. It's just that. It's instant.[14] All lifeforms have Ki[15]. Superman has Ki, And Goku can theoretically lock on to that Ki. Which means Goku can use IT in a fight against Superman, though it may take him precious moments to lock on to his Ki that he doesn't have. However, even though IT is instant, his punches and kicks are not. if he IT'd behind superman just his heartbeat and presence is enough to alert Superman with his Super reflexes and speed to move out of the way.[16]


This was also pointed out to me by an acquaintance of mine about IT(Edited for relevance);

“It's(IT) an utterly useless move in this debate. He's only used it twice in his career against someone. Cell, who was standing still and Buu who was distracted by attacking Gohan. Both times were relatively short range.



Other than that, Goku's speed is not instant. If Raditz is 0.7X the speed of light at 1200[17], then Goku's speed at the PL of 3,000,000 would be about 1,750X The Speed Of Light. At 150,000,000 it would be 87,500XLight speed. At 1,200,000,000 (the power of what would be Frieza saga SSJ3 PL #) it would be   about 700,000XLight. However, some inconsistencies should be noted. Light would travel 1,000,000KM in 3.3 Seconds (AKA Snake Way), while at a PL of over 9000, it took Goku over 24 Hours to travel which would make him significantly slower than light, while at 1200 Raditz was possibly 0.7X Light Speed. You say, "Oh but!" "Let's see you calculate that out with a PL of 2,000,000,000,000!" Alright, let's do it. 2,000,000,000,000 XPL 1200 =1,666,666,666.6 X 0.7 = 1,166,666,666 XLight.


Now for Superman's speed feats. Superman has not only crossed to other galaxies in an instant,[18] but also to other universes.[19] First, let's just see how long it would take to reach another galaxy. The Andromeda galaxy is 2.2 Million light-years away from us. Another universe is god knows how far away. What do we say? Well, hundreds of thousands have been mapped out. But how about this. He has to cross 50 galaxies in order to reach this other universe. Let's just start with Andromeda. 2.2 Million lightyears X 6,000,000,000 = 13,200,000,000,000,000 (13.2 Quintillion miles) Traveling there in one second (Which Superman did an excess of) would be 70,967,741,935 XLight. This trumps Goku's actual speed (Aside from IT). So, compared, it would be


Goku 2,000,000,000,000 PL 1,166,666,666XLight

Superman                                70,967,741,935 XLight

Gosh, even with only using a fraction of Superman's speed, and overblowing Goku's Power Level, you're still about 70X too short.

(70.9 Billion times the speed of light, and Superman even traveled to another universe, and this is only traveling to one other galaxy from here, not multiples like he did)

You may be one out there saying “Well, he can travel long distances, but can he fight at that speed??” The answer would be yes. Multiple times in battle, we see Superman using time travel as a valuable tactic to escape, and sometimes to utterly defeat his opponents, and not only traveling a few moments back or forward in time, but sometimes hundreds, thousands, and even tens of thousands of years.[20][21] This should be noted as a great tactic Superman can use in battle.

While IT is a valuable teleportation technique, it is rarely used in battle. It is instant, and it does make his IT speed literally instant, his actual speed would be far lower than Superman’s speed, and if you compare Speed(Superman) Vs Speed(Goku) and Time-Travel during battle Vs IT, Time-Travel is a much more useful technique. So Superman wins this category because of his superior speed and superior speed-related techniques.

EDGE: Superman.



Well, first let’s look at Goku’s durability. During the Cell Saga, Goku was killed by a blast from Cell that would destroy earth.[22] (You could even stretch to say it would destroy the solar system, since Cell stated he could destroy the solar system previous to that moment.)[23] However, it’s likely that he survived many blasts that would’ve destroyed the moon, and much more.[24]

Like I said earlier, Superman is able to shatter planets with his punches,[9] So it’s logical that Goku would fall to Superman because Goku died from an attack that would destroy the planet, and Superman could destroy the planet with his hands, and much more.

While Superman’s durability is extremely high, able to withstand the core of the sun, without his costume getting singed,[25] able to withstand “a barrage of quasars”[26](1 Quasar = 1 Trillion Suns, while the strongest of these shines at 1.5 Quadrillion suns[A], I thought I'd be nice and just use 1 Trillion for all my calculations)(While it should also be noted that Broly died at the surface of the sun) able to enter into a white dwarf star with absolutely no problems with the heat,[C] able to withstand a punch with “The magnetic repulsion flow of 100 galaxies”[27] among other things.

With so many durability feats, Superman would have to take this category fairly easily.

EDGE: Superman, by far.


Energy Projection


Alright. Let’s start this category out with Goku. This, I would have to say, is Goku’s strongest area. At a PL of only about 150, Master Roshi destroyed the moon. At a power level of about 15,000, Vegeta destroyed a planet. Obviously, with Goku’s much higher power level, he could destroy much more. It got me to thinking(This ties back in to Superman’s durability) Can Goku dish out a blast that could destroy Superman? Well, let’s look at it this way. Superman was hit by a “barrage of Quasars” that were condensed down into smaller beams, and just shrugged the blasts. [26] Well, can Goku even produce the energy of one quasar? Let’s find out.

1 Quasar = 1,000,000,000 Suns.

The moon could be destroyed at 150. The earth, at 15,000.

Let’s calculate it out. Power Level/150= the number of moons that can be destroyed with that specific Power Level. Divide that by 72,000,000, and that = how many suns you can destroy (Because the sun is 72,000,000X the size of the moon.)

With a Power level of let’s say, 1 Quintillion.

1,000,000,000,000,000,000/150 =6,666,666,666,666,666.6 (Number of Moons which can be destroyed)


92592592.5(Numeber of suns which can be destroyed)

Wow. That’s impressive, right? I’d say so. But 9,259,259 suns is very short of 1,000,000,000,000 suns, and realistically, Goku’s PL would be much much lower than this this, the average is considered to between 450,000,000 and 1,8000,000,000, while I've heard one crazy that said it would be up to the trillions. So…9,259,259 Suns=0.000009% 1 Quasar equivalent. Not to mention, it was not 1 quasar Superman was hit with, it was a BARRAGE of them. We could do the same calculation with relevance to earth and the sun at a PL of 15,000, but we come up with, virtually, the same conclusion. This proves that Goku would never have enough power to even harm Superman.

Now, back on the topic of energy projection. Superman has reignited a sun with his heat vision[B], Superman’s heat vision is known to be hotter than the core of the sun,[28] Superman has also been seen turning an asteroid into ash from hundreds of thousands of miles away,[29]cut the earth in half with his heat vision[30] among other things, however, I believe that in pure destructive force, Goku’s   energy projection is superior to that of Superman.


Long range: Superman

Short Range: Goku

Destructive Power: Goku


Fighting Skills

Though Superman has trained with some of the world’s most skilled fighters, Goku is all about training. His fighting skills need no explanation, really, it is clear that Goku has far more pure skill than Superman.

EDGE: Goku


Special Abilities and Misc.

Now, there are some abilities and things that I didn’t incorporate into my argument; Those things are all combined together here, for the special abilities category.

Superman has;

The ability to control metal,[31] the ability to punch things and make them turn into microscopic dust, from his pure strength,[32] the ability to hurl the sun somewhere else with his super-breath,[33] the ability to squeeze gold into molten gold,[34] the ability to break force fields that can mend the fabric of reality,[35] ability to lock people in the Phantom Zone,[D] among many more special abilities.

Now, Goku’s got some stuff like the Genki Dama, and the Kaio-Ken, and some other tricks, but it’s nothing compared to all of the special abilities Superman has.

EDGE: Superman.


Closing Statements

Now, while DragonBall characters have the power to destroy Solar Systems, moons, and planets is powerful, it pales in comparison to Superman’s raw power. Superman is proven to be far more durable than any DragonBall character, while also having the Strength, Speed, Energy Projection, and special abilities to kill Goku. It is very likely that one or possibly two punches from Superman would be the end of Goku, because of Superman’s raw strength, IMMENSE strength that DragonBall characters have never known, while it should be noted that while DragonBall characters die in the sun, Superman’s costume doesn’t even get singed, and Superman’s heat vision is hotter than the core of a sun. While Goku died from a planet-busting attack in the Cell Saga, Superman was hardly knocked his feet by one that actually included red-sun radiation. I think it should now be clear to all that Pre-Crisis Kryptonian’s are simply, just too much for DragonBall characters.

I hope this article shed some light on the subject.


[1] Superman Volume 1, #129 

 [2] DragonBall Z Anime, Episode 3, 10:00


[3] DragonBall Manga, Volume 42, Chapter 7, Page 1 

 [4] Action Comics 241, Page 7 

 [5] Many believe this to be so. (Anybody got any scans for this?)

[6] All-Star Superman 01, Page 14 

 [7] Action Comics 268, Page 9 

 [8] http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/ast99/ast99487.htm

[9] Death Of The New Gods, #07, Page 7 

 [10] Superman 110, Page 12 

 [11] Superboy, Volume 1, #140, Page 2 

 [12] DragonBall Manga Volume 36, Chapter 8, Page 8 



 [13] DragonBall Manga, Volume 18, Chapter 7 


 [14] Literal Translation.

[15] DragonBall Manga, Volume 36, Chapter 8, Page 1-2 

 [16] Superman/Batman Series, ???

[17] Lightning, according to many scientists, can move up to 0.5x the speed of light, but on an average would be about 0.32x the speed of light.[1] While Mr. Popo could move at lightning speed[2], Raditz is much stronger than Mr.Popo, it could be concievable that Raditz could be moving almost near the speed of light.( [1] http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/wea00/wea00189.htm[2]DragonBall Vomume 14, Chapter 8, Pages 6-8)

[18]Superboy 80, Volume 1, page 27 

 [19] Action Comics 273, Volume 1, Page 4 

 [20] Action Comics 354, Pages 9-10 

 [21] Action Comics 268, Volume 1, Page 13 

 [22] DragonBall Manga, Volume 35, Chapter 4 


 [23] DragonBallVolume 35 Chapter 7 

 [24] Multiple occasions where beams were fired.

[25] Superboy Volume 1, #80, Page 29 

 [26] DC Comics Presents, Volume 1, #86 

 [27] Superman’s Pal, Jimmy Olsen #147, Page 14 

 [28] Superman Volume 2, #218 

 [29] Action Comics 209, Volume 1, Page 10 

 [30] Action Comics 387, Volume 1 

 [31] Action Comics 221, Volume 1 

 [32] Action Comics 214, Volume 1 

 [33] Action Comics   261, Volume 1, Page 10 

 [34] Action Comics 219, Volume 1, Page 14 

 [35] Superboy 224, Volume 1 


[A] http://www.scienceclarified.com/Qu-Ro/Quasar.html 


















Post by DJSNuva1 (3,347 posts) See mini bio Level 11
Post by Kelleth (7,798 posts) See mini bio Level 20
With this i'd like to add that this is actually going not going to be a full discussion or a debate for that matter. So if i see ANY FANBOY WHO POSTS A HALF@SSED ".... WINS" POST I"LL BAN HIM RIGHT AWAY!!!
Thank you: Old Poll.
Post by DJSNuva1 (3,347 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@Kelleth: Can we reply to other people's response or is this going to be "Mortein's Way"? 
EH??? Did the thread just change to 45%?
Post by Kelleth (7,798 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@DJSNuva1:  Depends on what the reply contains lol. As long as its well proven with a decent amount of evidence and isn't some flame bait lol
Post by DJSNuva1 (3,347 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@Kelleth said:
" @DJSNuva1:  Depends on what the reply contains lol. As long as its well proven with a decent amount of truth and isn't some flame bait lol "
And uh, how about that 45% I just saw? Is it too late or something?
Post by Kelleth (7,798 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@DJSNuva1:  You already have the thread do you? lol
Post by DJSNuva1 (3,347 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@Kelleth: Oh 
Post by taichokage (17,887 posts) See mini bio Level 20
@hitsusatsu11: very nice. it took me like 20 mins to read your post lol. Nice. You have some stuff in there even I forgot.
Post by Guyver (3,440 posts) See mini bio Level 14

That's an epic post.
Post by Mortein (1,558 posts) See mini bio Level 9
Reserved place.
I never wanted to give an opinion in a thread like this, what I think we should discuss is SSJ3 Goku without fillers vs current Superman.
PC superman vs manga Goku is a clear win for PC superman.
Post by DJSNuva1 (3,347 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@taichokage said:

" @hitsusatsu11: very nice. it took me like 20 mins to read your post lol. Nice. You have some stuff in there even I forgot. "

@Guyver said:

" That's an epic post. "

@Mortein said:

" Reserved place. "

Right. And you guys skipped my post. Bogus.
Post by rein (5,465 posts) See mini bio Level 15
This post is Not my argument, but shouldn't superman's time travel abilities be limited? That ability seems like a game breaker here. 
*edit* Sorry, i had only read the rules when i posted this i didn't realize it had already been addressed in hitsu's post.
Post by JJOR64 (2,075 posts) See mini bio Level 16
That has to be the biggest post in the history of Whiskey Media.
Post by Mortein (1,558 posts) See mini bio Level 9
@JJOR64 said:

" That has to be the biggest post in the history of Whiskey Media. "

Post by DJSNuva1 (3,347 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@rein: That's not necessarily fair, it's a legitimate part of his skill set. 
See here; 


Post by DJSNuva1 (3,347 posts) See mini bio Level 11
@Mortein said:
" Reserved place. I never wanted to give an opinion in a thread like this, what I think we should discuss is SSJ3 Goku without fillers vs current Superman. PC superman vs manga Goku is a clear win for PC superman. "
It's Manga and Anime with Fillers Vs PC Superman though. Still in favor of PC Superman though, don't you agree?
Post by Boxer_Joe (308 posts) See mini bio Level 10

Great post both of you, this needs to go on comicvine lol, but I think superman wins since he has shown to actualy be able to affect the entire universe with his punches and whatnot.
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