Yusuke VS Ichigo

Topic started by hiei_hyabusha on Dec. 12, 2008. Last post by Carter_esque 8 months, 4 weeks ago.
Post by Whats_out_the_bag (1,223 posts) See mini bio Level 10
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@supernova7005:

Please tell me when I ever said anything about scaling these with piexel? Oh was it the lines?

I simply can look at them and tell if it's a mountain. We've seen many manga artist draw REAL MOUNTAINS when they need to, but if they aren't then no. Just because it says it's a mountain doesn't mean it's a mountain. There isn't any world in Japanese that means HILL or MESA so when people translate all they see is the word MOUNTAIN.

The way both of them were drawing you couldn't state it to be a mountain. It's not enough detail to even allow a reader to tell taht it's a mountain, but you want to use what the character said, but that doesn't mean shit as I've already stated it was translated from Japanese.

ROFL (I finally noticed why you sounded fairly and I noticed that stupid picture argument anywhere)

So you're the guy who doesn't know what a mountain is. Yeah I was going to continue debating but you're one of those guys who don't get it even if it's in your face.

I'll like these guys tell you in a different way why that shit isn't a mountain. There isn't a good battle forum that I know of that accepts that little thing as a mountain. Have fun thinking it is one.

http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=829549

Oh wait before I leave I have to kill that picture argument real quick.


The mountain barely seems 3x the height of the person if it was a 2-D manga scan.

True, but you have to look the detail on the background and how it was drawn. I can't help if these guys can't draw, they should know that they have to do size proportions and make the object look bigger.

http://www.history.army.mil/books/mexico/topo/photos/pg111.jpg

Look how they not only did the foreground but the background. They put in a land in the middle to show the distance between the mountain and the HILL in the front.

Here's another one

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PpJTORvPk34/Tp31PKGNaXI/AAAAAAAABoM/hqD4_kr4Dv8/s640/Mountain+Drawing.jpg

There's many mountain drawings that do the same thing. It's not hard. I can't help if they don't know how to draw. There're rules to drawing.

Post by nishi99 (1,578 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Ichigo's feats are still not good enough to top Yusuke.

Post by supernova7005 (1,966 posts) See mini bio Level 15

@Whats_out_the_bag said:

Please tell me when I ever said anything about scaling these with piexel? Oh was it the lines?

Its one and the same thing. Whether you eyeball or pixel-scale, it doesn't really matter because writers rarely have a sense of scale.

I simply can look at them and tell if it's a mountain. We've seen many manga artist draw REAL MOUNTAINS when they need to, but if they aren't then no. Just because it says it's a mountain doesn't mean it's a mountain. There isn't any world in Japanese that means HILL or MESA so when people translate all they see is the word MOUNTAIN.
The way both of them were drawing you couldn't state it to be a mountain. It's not enough detail to even allow a reader to tell taht it's a mountain, but you want to use what the character said, but that doesn't mean shit as I've already stated it was translated from Japanese.

I already gave you an example from Toriko- http://media.animevice.com/uploads/3/32169/697119-capture_super.jpg

That mountain in Torikoverse is stated 5000m high, yet by your scaling logic (drawing lines), its barely 10-20 times the person's height

> Once again proving my point that writers don't draw to scale.

ROFL (I finally noticed why you sounded fairly and I noticed that stupid picture argument anywhere)
So you're the guy who doesn't know what a mountain is. Yeah I was going to continue debating but you're one of those guys who don't get it even if it's in your face.

Lol what?

Are you seriously trying to argue that this mountain in Toriko is not 5000m though the height is explicitly STATED just because of some bad art?

I'll like these guys tell you in a different way why that shit isn't a mountain. There isn't a good battle forum that I know of that accepts that little thing as a mountain. Have fun thinking it is one.
http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=829549

OBD hates Bleach and that's not even a calc to begin with. Why are you linking their beliefs to me? You are technically using an Ad populum fallacy here.

And using the same site that you did, here is Sensui confirmed an Island+ buster - http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=17271

Oh wait before I leave I have to kill that picture argument real quick.
True, but you have to look the detail on the background and how it was drawn. I can't help if these guys can't draw, they should know that they have to do size proportions and make the object look bigger. http://www.history.army.mil/books/mexico/topo/photos/pg111.jpg
Look how they not only did the foreground but the background. They put in a land in the middle to show the distance between the mountain and the HILL in the front.
Here's another one http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PpJTORvPk34/Tp31PKGNaXI/AAAAAAAABoM/hqD4_kr4Dv8/s640/Mountain+Drawing.jpg
There's many mountain drawings that do the same thing. It's not hard. I can't help if they don't know how to draw. There're rules to drawing.

Why are you showing me these drawings? Its Kubo's problem if he doesn't know how to draw, not mine.

In the scan where Ichigo destroyed the mountain, the distance between them was never stated so don't just assume it was closeby

.............

In short, R2 Ulquiorra is confirmed multi city+ at the bare minimum based on the information provided in the manga about Las Noches. I even linked you this calc for the same about the size of the explosion. And since Ichigo >>>>>> Ulquiorra, he is far above mountain level. so the entire argument of "Ichigo isnt a mountain buster because he destroyed only a hill" is debunked

Post by Whats_out_the_bag (1,223 posts) See mini bio Level 10
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@supernova7005:

Its one and the same thing. Whether you eyeball or pixel-scale, it doesn't really matter because writers rarely have a sense of scale.

It's called Mangaka not writers , which is a comic book artist for manga. Now if they aren't good enough to know something as basic as scale then they shouldn't be working on manga at all.

It's pretty much the basics of drawing.

I already gave you an example from Toriko- http://media.animevice.com/uploads/3/32169/697119-capture_super.jpg

Yeah which I'm currently thinking should I counter that crappy argument.

Lol what?
Are you seriously trying to argue that this mountain in Toriko is not 5000m though the height is explicitly STATED just because of some bad art?

I wasn't at that post, I was clearly pointing out you were the guy who didn't know what a mountain was. But I'm probably going to go and kill that little shitty scan.

OBD hates Bleach

That's nice

that's not even a calc to begin with.

And your point is?

Why are you linking their beliefs to me?

Sorry this isn't something like a hill is a mountain. Most of these guys know what a mountain is. I was hoping you could educate your self a little by looking at it, but I already knew the outcome.

You are technically using an Ad populum fallacy here.

That's cute and all, but no. I know he isn't a mountain buster I just went to go find some people who have already did a nice little bit of work for me so I wouldn't have to sit here and continue showing facts and proof to you (referring to the course of this debate over time)

Which I'll show you little bits of pieces of what these guys say, and show you why I gave you the link. They said everything I was going to tell you, but I'll go into a little more detail and some more examples.

And using the same site that you did, here is Sensui confirmed an Island+ buster - http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=17271

That's nice, and when did calculated become 100% actuate? Hell even this calc is based on an assumption that one of these hills are as thick as it is tall. Calcs are mathematical assumptions. I rarely use them, only when I need to. Yu Yu Hakusho always has holes in their calcs. Which I won't bring up some of their other bull shit like country destroying. Hell even moon busting, which is where I normally step in. It's quite a well known fact that OBD loves them some YYH, hell even I love the series. But when It comes to mountain leveling being thrown around when it's really a hill I'll jump out and call bull shit in a heart beat.

Why are you showing me these drawings? Its Kubo's problem if he doesn't know how to draw, not mine.

Exactly it's his problem not ours. We can't make him draw the damn mountain better. Since you love some calcs so much let me explain something. With out a proper drawing we can not scale the mountain, via pixels or our eyes. So that feat would also be invalid.

In the scan where Ichigo destroyed the mountain, the distance between them was never stated so don't just assume it was closeby

Right, we can't assume anything really. So it's a useless invalid feat.

In short, R2 Ulquiorra is confirmed multi city+ at the bare minimum based on the information provided in the manga about Las Noches.

I'm sorry did they state he could do that in the manga? Scan please.

I even linked you this calc for the same about the size of the explosion. And since Ichigo >>>>>> Ulquiorra, he is far above mountain level. so the entire argument of "Ichigo isnt a mountain buster because he destroyed only a hill" is debunked

All this calc does was talk about it's speed. Which I can tell it's pretty damn fast and didn't need anything other than that. Now just because it's fast doesn't mean it's destroying multiple cities. You must think distance equals destruction, but that's not the case with any old blast. There fight was in sand, which was in an open desert I'm going to call bull shit on who ever calcs this u-un-calculable thing. But if there's a crater then maybe. Either way You have no proof that he's a MC+ in DC. Also just because character A can do something doesn't mean character B can do it as well. Power scaling doesn't work based off techniques.

Since it's 3:52 AM right I'll spend the next 10 mins kill this Toriko shit.

That mountain in Torikoverse is stated 5000m high, yet by your scaling logic (drawing lines), its barely 10-20 times the person's height
> Once again proving my point that writers don't draw to scale.

Here we go.

How tall is Toriko again? If he's around 600ft i'm cool with that entire scan.

Oh just checked out the wiki. He's pretty damn tall but no 600ft. He's 7ft 2 in aka 220 cm.

I like the manga's picture better as it looks bigger since it's drawn in an angel.

Now lets use one of my classic images and arguments then show you something new.

The image above is called the Statue of Liberty. Just wanted you to know that since this is a teaching lesson now.

Does this look like a mountain to you?

Sorry Suppanova, but this is not a mountain. I know it's big and all, but this statue is ONLY 306ft that's 2194 ft too short to be considered a mountain based on the UNITED NATIONS definition.

Now look at this picture a below.

Now what If I drew this and told you that those cups were 500ft tall and that those old women were only 4 ft 9. What's you're fucking thoughts?

We either say fuck what the manga is saying or fuck all the feats in the entire verse. When we calc we ASSUME that the verse has the same physical properties as our universe. SO WHAT'S IT GONNA BE?

Post by supernova7005 (1,966 posts) See mini bio Level 15

@Whats_out_the_bag:

It's called Mangaka not writers , which is a comic book artist for manga. Now if they aren't good enough to know something as basic as scale then they shouldn't be working on manga at all.
It's pretty much the basics of drawing.

Then its the mangaka's problem, not mine. Most of the things in several manga are not drawn to scale, the moon in DBZ being an example. It appears much smaller and closer than the real moon, due to which some people go as far as claiming its much smaller in DB so DBZ characters are not moonbusters.

That's cute and all, but no. I know he isn't a mountain buster
I just went to go find some people who have already did a nice little bit of work for me so I wouldn't have to sit here and continue showing facts and proof to you (referring to the course of this debate over time)

They don't consider it a mountain because they hate Bleach and try really hard to downplay it like hell. Not to mention, all their arguments are based only on pixel scaling BS.

I don't give 2 shits about their opinion.

That's nice, and when did calculated become 100% actuate? Hell even this calc is based on an assumption that one of these hills are as thick as it is tall. Calcs are mathematical assumptions. I rarely use them, only when I need to. Yu Yu Hakusho always has holes in their calcs. Which I won't bring up some of their other bull shit like country destroying. Hell even moon busting, which is where I normally step in. It's quite a well known fact that OBD loves them some YYH, hell even I love the series. But when It comes to mountain leveling being thrown around when it's really a hill I'll jump out and call bull shit in a heart beat.

Yeah, I never said those calcs are 100% accurate. Just pointing them out to show you how inconsistent pixel scaling can be.

On one occasion you get a hill sized mountain. On another, you get an island sized one - this is how huge the inconsistency in pixel scaling can be.

Exactly it's his problem not ours. We can't make him draw the damn mountain better. Since you love some calcs so much let me explain something. With out a proper drawing we can not scale the mountain, via pixels or our eyes. So that feat would also be invalid.

Yes, we can't scale them. The only thing we should consider is the "statement" about it being a mountain, so we have to take it as the smallest possible mountain ie. 300 m.

Right, we can't assume anything really. So it's a useless invalid feat.

We can, actually. The "mountain" being a small mountain does make sense

I'm sorry did they state he could do that in the manga? Scan please.

They did. It was stated any of the top 4 Espadas can destroy Las Noches as their releases are too powerful. And I showed you a scan of Lanza dwarfing LN in the previous page

All this calc does was talk about it's speed. Which I can tell it's pretty damn fast and didn't need anything other than that. Now just because it's fast doesn't mean it's destroying multiple cities. You must think distance equals destruction, but that's not the case with any old blast. There fight was in sand, which was in an open desert I'm going to call bull shit on who ever calcs this u-un-calculable thing. But if there's a crater then maybe. Either way You have no proof that he's a MC+ in DC.

I think you didn't read the calc fully so here I'll link it again. Look at the calc in the middle by this person called Cid. The length of Las Noches was calced to be several hundred meters, and the explosion dwarfs it.

It was a blast of rieatsu. Anything caught within the blast would have been destroyed, given the fact that the huge rock structure at the left end of the blast crumbled apart.

Also just because character A can do something doesn't mean character B can do it as well. Power scaling doesn't work based off techniques.

Attack potency bro. If character A is stronger than B, and if B is city level then its obvious that A's potency is atleast city level.

By your logic, even a top tier DBZ character like Super Vegito will not be a planet buster though Frieza is, because he never destroyed anything more than a mountain.

Here we go.
How tall is Toriko again? If he's around 600ft i'm cool with that entire scan.
Oh just checked out the wiki. He's pretty damn tall but no 600ft. He's 7ft 2 in aka 220 cm.
I like the manga's picture better as it looks bigger since it's drawn in an angel.

Now lets use one of my classic images and arguments then show you something new.
Does this look like a mountain to you?
Sorry Suppanova, but this is not a mountain. I know it's big and all, but this statue is ONLY 306ft that's 2194 ft too short to be considered a mountain based on the UNITED NATIONS definition.

Seriously.......?

Are you truly gonna ignore the author's word which explicitly says its 5000m just because of some bad art? Even when a number is clearly given?

Word of god >>>>> fancalcs and pixel scaling, anyday.

Now look at this picture a below.
Now what If I drew this and told you that those cups were 500ft tall and that those old women were only 4 ft 9. What's you're fucking thoughts?
We either say fuck what the manga is saying or fuck all the feats in the entire verse. When we calc we ASSUME that the verse has the same physical properties as our universe. SO WHAT'S IT GONNA BE?

In this case its pretty obvious that teacups can't be 500 ft high, as its something that even a kindergarten child knows.

If the author says the cups are 500 feet tall, I'll just call him retarded and say fuck the manga.

Post by taichokage (12,622 posts) See mini bio Level 20
The OBD might know what a mountain is, but some of them don't seem to know what a country is. They calced Naruto at small country level for countering 6 mountain busters. Now last I checked, 6 mountains isn't country level. Unless you count Vatican City as a country. Then a lot of HST characters would be "country" level. And yes they do hate Bleach there. They also dislike Naruto. But they like One Piece, Toriko and Hakusho.
Post by Whats_out_the_bag (1,223 posts) See mini bio Level 10
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@taichokage: I really don't care what they like I only showed him that page because they said everything that was needed. They have their own definition for a country and they hype anything they like from One piece to YYH. Seeing how they are the most resourceful it would explain why people use them for information. Pretty much every scale we and other sites have are based on them. I would have called bull shit if I saw downplay but in that post there wasn't. So there was no need.

Post by taichokage (12,622 posts) See mini bio Level 20
If you're saying that 6 mountains is a proper classification of country level or you don't see the fallacy in that then I don't know what to say. Do you believe Naruto is country level? Also what they like and don't like matters. It seems to influence whether they low or high ball characters from respective series.
Post by Whats_out_the_bag (1,223 posts) See mini bio Level 10
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@taichokage: Didn't say that was proper I clearly stated they have their OWN definition for a country. Hell YYH characters are being scaled on country level as well based on hill/mountain busting. I'd rarely ever use them for a source of calc, but they are the only ones who actually do it.

They down scale characters and upscale characters.

They funny thing is a real life country can be any size. Which is why I don't really like the rank country level. Smallest country in the world is only 0.2 square miles.

So pretty much anyone with a city buster or mountain buster could be scaled to a country level. I don't think OBD is RIGHT on their scales, but It all depends on what their definition of a city is. Kind like planets Pluto is considered too small to be one, so the definition was changed.

Post by taichokage (12,622 posts) See mini bio Level 20
Fair enough, I'm not arguing about that. I'm saying that many of these calcs make no sense, including several pertaining to Naruto.
Post by Whats_out_the_bag (1,223 posts) See mini bio Level 10
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@taichokage: I agree, which is why I don't use them. lol

Post by DBZ_universe (15,454 posts) See mini bio Level 17

Yusuke wins.

Post by supernova7005 (1,966 posts) See mini bio Level 15

The main problem with these calcs is pixel scaling, which could lead to erroneous values. However, if a mountain is stated to be 5000m with a number explicitly stated, it should be treated as a mountain no matter how small it appears. After all you can't go against the author's word just because of some bad art.

There are many reasons why things in the manga are not always drawn to scale-

#1. Writers rarely have a sense of scale. They don't accurately measure distances while making drawings, especially Kubo who's known for his bad art.

#2. Even if they do, they sometimes make things look smaller to make the entire object fit in one scan.

#3. Sometimes, they need to show how the mountain is getting destroyed, for which the character's heights need to be made large enough to fit in the panel

One example of scaling being erroneous is the size of the moon in DBZ. It appears much smaller and closer, due to which some people tend to think the moon is different in DBZ so piccolo is not a moonbuster, despite it being part of the same Earth-Moon system.

.....

@taichokage said:

If you're saying that 6 mountains is a proper classification of country level or you don't see the fallacy in that then I don't know what to say. Do you believe Naruto is country level? Also what they like and don't like matters. It seems to influence whether they low or high ball characters from respective series.

Actually, OBD believes those mountains are even larger than Everest due to which they gave Nardo country level DC. They also think the countries in Narutoverse are Jupiter-sized, and because of this they gave Juubi a speed of Mach 23000+, coz they believe its TBB crossed a Jupiter sized country in 10 seconds. But by applying common sense, it seems BS.

Again, the problem is because they have pixel-scaled everything using Juubi's height as 1.5 km.

Post by taichokage (12,622 posts) See mini bio Level 20
I know. The Sun sized Naruto world was the last straw for me. Granted many people on obd ridiculed it as well but still...... It's actually probably even smaller than our world. When the Juubi summoned the Shinju tree, you can see a good amount of the curvature of the planet.
Post by Kobra678 (2,885 posts) See mini bio Level 14

@supernova7005 said:

The main problem with these calcs is pixel scaling, which could lead to erroneous values. However, if a mountain is stated to be 5000m with a number explicitly stated, it should be treated as a mountain no matter how small it appears. After all you can't go against the author's word just because of some bad art.

There are many reasons why things in the manga are not always drawn to scale-

#1. Writers rarely have a sense of scale. They don't accurately measure distances while making drawings, especially Kubo who's known for his bad art.

#2. Even if they do, they sometimes make things look smaller to make the entire object fit in one scan.

#3. Sometimes, they need to show how the mountain is getting destroyed, for which the character's heights need to be made large enough to fit in the panel

One example of scaling being erroneous is the size of the moon in DBZ. It appears much smaller and closer, due to which some people tend to think the moon is different in DBZ so piccolo is not a moonbuster, despite it being part of the same Earth-Moon system.

.....

@taichokage said:

If you're saying that 6 mountains is a proper classification of country level or you don't see the fallacy in that then I don't know what to say. Do you believe Naruto is country level? Also what they like and don't like matters. It seems to influence whether they low or high ball characters from respective series.

Actually, OBD believes those mountains are even larger than Everest due to which they gave Nardo country level DC. They also think the countries in Narutoverse are Jupiter-sized, and because of this they gave Juubi a speed of Mach 23000+, coz they believe its TBB crossed a Jupiter sized country in 10 seconds. But by applying common sense, it seems BS.

Again, the problem is because they have pixel-scaled everything using Juubi's height as 1.5 km.

XD gets me every time lol.

Post by Carter_esque (577 posts) See mini bio Level 10

Yusuke's power at the end of the series is comparable to that of an unmastered Super Saiyan lv.1. How is this even fair for Ichigo, a mere mountain buster??

Post by taichokage (12,622 posts) See mini bio Level 20
Yusuke Super Saiyan Level? Ehhh no. And Dangai Ichigo is above mountain level. When you factor how many thousands of times more energy you need to destroy even a giant "hill" with air pressure and from a good distance, it would easily put him above mountain level. I could make an argument for it but Yusuke level I'd have to say no. But neither character is touching even low end super Saiyan level.
Post by Carter_esque (577 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@taichokage:

The whole SSJ comparison is debatable but since Yusuke doesn't have any feats suggesting that he could destroy a planet, I'll concede... for now.

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