@WhiteLion: It's clear that if you use powerscaling and take one step back, looking at everything that's gone on, Hiruzen's feats outshine those of the Raikage's. That's my argument, in short. Maybe you'll have an easier time understanding that?
Sorry I took so long. Been busy.
Okay so lets begin. You just told me to use POWERSCALING, and that this is what your argument is based off. That right the alone is something, I won't submit to. Powerscaling isn't accurate, and is often based off speculation, and hype with no facts behind it. Now lets go through your argument.
From what I'm seeing you seem to think that the Raikage's speed makes him nigh on unstoppable when this just simply isn't the case. He's fast, I know that but like I said there's no way he's as fast as you're making him out to be. How about the fact that B was able to react to him? Plus if his speed is so much of an advantage in battle then why hasn't he just taken out all the villages? As well as this, even though he did dodge Sasuke's Amaterasu, he still would've died in his battle against Sasuke had Gaara not intervened via Amaterasu spike up the ass. He's not exactly the most intelligent character in the series.
I never said that he was unstoppable. He has just proven to be way faster than Hiruzen. The only people who have proven to be faster than Him are Minato, and Naruto. Why would he have to go to each villlage, and raise war with all the other Shinobi? Like I said. I've never said he was unstoppable, but for damn sure, he's not going to be easily beaten. You ask how is B able to react to him? Be has never been shown to be slow. He was fast enough to damage sasuke twice, and move out of the area of the battle field with the whole team there. Dude has a damn Sharingan, and Sasuke wasn't able to react to it. B trained with his brother, but not to mention Killer B is also the same guy who reacted to Minato. You do know that A himself was also fighting Naruto and Killer Bee at the same time, swinging Killer B by his tail into Naruto. Yes he dodged the Amatsura, AND a Chakra blast simultaneously. Would he have died probably, but Sasuke would have more than likely been injured as well. However that doesn't matter because Hiruzen doesn't have one of the strongest defenses in the series. You say I'm over hyping his speed, and says Hiruzen has better feats, and claiming he is just as fast possibly with nothing to suggest this but speculation, and no proof to support it. As yourself said you're using powerscaling for your argument.
We also know that Sasuke by his own admission only beat Orochimaru because Orochimaru was in a massively weakened state. Yet Hiruzen was fighting Orochimaru, the 1st and the 2nd on his own, with Enma of course but that's his summon. Orochimaru is a Kage level enemy, he's not weak so you can't really use "Orochimaru had no problem tagging him" as an argument. In fact Orochimaru killed the 4th Kazekage by himself.
You've misunderstood what I meant when I said they weren't holding back but not using their best jutsus. What I meant was that they were physically not holding back at all because they were just mindless puppets, however at the same time this makes them slightly weaker because they're not able to fight logically and use the most appropriate jutsus for any give ocassion. This is the exactly the reason why Kabuto gave his summons some of their personality back. The Kages were still coming at Hiruzen with full physical force though and a variety of powerful jutsus.
Nah, bro I don't think you know. Get it right. This is why I don't really think you know what you're talking about. The first and second Hokage were Edo Tensei Summons, only difference is Emma was not. This doesn't make it a two on one. Emma counts as well. But anyway durring the fight Orochimaru didn't attack at all. He sat back and watched The Edo Tensei Hoakges fight. He summoned his Kunasagi sword, and blocked Emma. he didn't do anything BUT WATCH AND BLOCK an attack while Hiruzen was fighting them. Secondly Orochimaru did NOT Kill the Kazekage by himself. He had help from Kimimaro, and Kabuto. Let's get it right bro. Secondly I'm not with the Kage Level this or that stuff. Orochimaru has lost practically every encounter he's been in although two of them he has sick and handicapped. Back to the battle of the omg so impressive feat of Hiruzen vs the Hokages. All that happened is. Hiruzen was getting beat up in Hand to Hand Combat. Summoned Emma Charged both of them got kicked back, and while he received the kick they placed an explosive tag on their legs. After that he got his ass whipped some more. Made three clones, and used his Death God Soul Eater Jutsu, Which in turned killed himself. You claim both the Hokages were going all out, and then said they weren't in their prime before the previous statement. Contradiction? Sorry but in order to go all out and preform at your best would have to include more than three jutsu. They only used one Mokuton jutsu, one suition jutsu, and a genjutsu. That's It. The rest was taijutsu, to where they knocked him back or down, and didn't even follow up after that. So yeah no varitey of powerful jutsu only three damn jutsu in total, and tai jutsu attacks to where they didn't follow up to finish him on, letting him get back up. This isn't a full force onslaught sorry.
Why do you think the losing to Madara fact doesn't stand. It's pretty clear that Madara was able to easily dominate Oonoki yet lost in a fight against Harishma. Yet Hiruzen was able to fight evenly against Harishma and Tobirama. Oonoki didn't take the full brunt of the two meteorites, he used his dust release to massively decrease the weight of the meteorites so they would do less damage. Plus I believe he was getting outside help. It's still an impressive feat no doubt, but not really a durability feat because he was using a jutsu to decrease it's weight. I don't see how that would help in a battle of ninjutsu. Dust release is very powerful jutsu but it has to connect and I don't think Hiruzen would give him a chance. Oonoki being old is justified by him constantly complaining about being old and having a really bad back. Not the greatest arguement ever, but no one else complains. He seems to be far older than Jiraiaya, Tsunade and even Hiruzen anyway having been at least 20+ when he fought against Madara.
Easy, because Madara has shown to be one of the strongest damn Ninja in the series. The fact that he was on top of the Uchiha clan, the fact that Oonoki was a kid, the fact that Madara wasn't giving a damn title, but showed that his hype has been lived up to. A Madara who likes to fight, and destroy his enemies. He is a villan, and yet you're saying well Madara lost to Harimasha, while Hiruzen fought evenly against and his brother is false. Getting your ass whipped through the whole fight, and having to restort to using a jutsu that gets you killed isn't fighting evenly or even winning a fight. A>B>C>A Logic doesn't work here. Hiruzen was not givien the title of God of Shinobi because he whipped a bunch of peoples ass. He was given it because he knew supposedly all the village jutsu, and for his great love of his village, and grandfather personality. He didn't beat anyone to gain a title, and the only people who hyped him up were. An Anbu member who is nothing but a filler, his Summon both of the wo we never see again, and Orochimaru. Who really only said even you can't defate death old man. There is no testament to his God Like Abilities. Like I said I'm not saying he sucks, but I'm not going to pretend that he is something he hasn't shown to be because a few no names said so, and there is nothing that suggest he manga wise. Addressing you talking about Oonoki. Okay you need to understand he wasn't using dust release on the meteorite., that's an earth release move, he used up all of his dust release abilities fighting Muu, shortly before Madara arrived. The jutsu he used is an Earth Release Techqniuqe, which he had slight help from Gaara with first one. The second one was immedately dropped onto it. He didn't decrease the way or slow it down. He got slammed. Gaara did not slow it or protect Oonoki. Oonoki survived the impact of both the techniques. It wiped the area changing the landscape, and Oonoki was in the center of it. Hiruzen hasn't shown better display feats of reaction, speed or strength then Oonoki. he's not beating him. Oonoki having a bad back doesn't justify him being weak or old. He has a problem, but has still out preformed Hiruzen. You don't know the age of when he fought Madara, and again that proves my point. Being old doesn't make you Weak. Chiyo was old, All of the Sannin are over 50 years old. So you saying Oonoki is weak because he's old doesn't give you the right to say Hiruzen is better than him, because his ass is old too, and wold still lose that fight.
You can't compare a storyline hype to a hype of strength. Itachi being a good guy was plot. There's no hype in that about his strength. You've got to look at it like this, they're not real characters. If the author decides to make them say a statement such as "Jiraiya is more powerful than me" then he's made them say that statement for a reason. Why else would they say it, just to make themselves sound weak? Maybe you think you know more than the author?
Out of all examples of hype failing that I pointed out you only picked one just one? Okay, maybe you should look at it like this. Sometimes the characters say stuff, it doesn't mean it's true. Doesn't mean it should be taken with 100% reality. Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. In the Manga or Manga's in general a character can say something and the complete opposite has happened. What are you going believe facts or statements? A girl is on Murder trail. She has killed 2 of her husbands for money. Evidence suggest she did it, proves she did it, but her only words or statement is I didn't do it, but everything points to her. She said she didn't do, we see a video tape of her preforming the murders. She says she didn't do it still. Are you going to trust her word over the video? I also never said I knew more than the author, but hell just because a character says this doesn't mean I'm going to believe it. Kishimoto himself stated that Tobi was not Obitio, numerous times. Guess what?
Finally let's just look at it like this, you keep saying Hiruzen has no feats....
Hiruzen fought against the 1st, 2nd and Orochimaru while in old age. Not only this, he took out the 1sts and 2nds legs without anyone even realising he'd put explosive tags on them, that's speed. They would've been killed if it hadn't been for the Edo. There is no possible argument you can make to deny this feat.
Again, I'm talking about Prime Hiruzen the one you're speculating on and have no feats for, the one who is powerscaling his whole argument. Orochimaru did not attack attack Hiruzen, he let the Hokages, who didn't want to fight him in the beginning fight him. He sat there and gloated, while they attacked him briefly. The fight isn't as even as you're trying to make it out to be. You're also mistaken they would not have died. Harishima can heal himself without handsigns, but anyway. Back to the argument. I'm not denying it at all. He got kicked, and landed on his ass while putting up an explosive, while yes that's impressive, That doesn't mean he can beat A.
What's Raikage's greatest feat? Do you think Raikage could take on the 1st, 2nd and Orochimaru?
His greatest feats are taking on Juugo, Sasuke, and Suigetsu at the same time, Taking on Killer B and Naruto at the same time. Having numerous battles with Minato, oh and cutting off the Horn of the Eight Tails Demon, and also knocking it out.
I guess you want me to say no because Hiruzen did it killing himself? Fact is. You can't beat the Edo Tensei, unless you undo the Seal. Hiruzen only won because he had a jutsu in his arsenal that allowed him to pull the souls out of the Edo Tensei bodies. If he didn't have it he would have lost. Back to the question though. No, I don't think A would win, Orochimaru can regenerate, or heal himself, while Hashirama can heal himself as well. Would he be capable of doding and tagging them for a hot minute yup.
Now. Lets see. You admitted your whole argument is based off speculation, and assumption with nothing to really back it. Stated my argument was fallacy, when I have provided examples, and reasoning. Disregarded some of my points and examples. While attempting to Hype up Hrizuen and Downplay A. I challenged you to tell me why and how Hiruzen would beat all of the other Kage. You didn't do so. Have even contradicted yourself. Like I said bro, I don't know you, so I'm trying to be pleasant as possible, but I really don't think you know what you're talking about all to well. So, if you want we can both just agree to disagree, Or we can keep debating.