Third Hokage vs Raikage

Topic started by Obito on Jan. 28, 2013. Last post by WhiteLion 1 year, 5 months ago.
Post by Obito (578 posts) See mini bio Level 9
The fight takes place in the Village Hidden in the Rain. 
K.O. or Incapacitation for the win. 
No prep. 
Both start 30 ft. away
Both are serious. 
Who wins? 
  
  
Post by Fehafare (7,994 posts) See mini bio Level 13
Online Now

Now my memory ain't the freshest, but 3rd Hokage was getting his shit ripped by pre-skip Orochimaru.

His only hope is Death good double KO, but because he's gonna have his head lariat-ed off before he can think...

Post by nishi99 (1,561 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Raikage most likely however if Sarutobi was in his prime it would be hard to say.

Post by Obito (578 posts) See mini bio Level 9
@nishi99
 
 
Both are in their prime, then.
Post by nishi99 (1,561 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@Obito: It would be a real close fight but i think prime Sarutobi would win in the end. mainly because Orochimaru said if Sarutobi was 10 years younger he could of beat him. Meaning Sarutobi not that much younger is likely stronger then Orochimaru so in his Prime which would be in his 30s or 20s so who knows how powerful he was.

Post by UltimateHero0406 (5,024 posts) See mini bio Level 16

We can't know how strong Sarutobi was in his prime. We can only make estimates. But I'll still go with A. He should still be much faster.

Post by SpeedForceSpider (4,803 posts) See mini bio Level 15

@UltimateHero0406 said:

We can't know how strong Sarutobi was in his prime. We can only make estimates. But I'll still go with A. He should still be much faster.

Post by Obito (578 posts) See mini bio Level 9
@nishi99: I see.
Post by katanalauncher (397 posts) See mini bio Level 6

Prime Sarutobi should be atleast much stronger than orochimaru, I say he's probably the seconded strongest hokage or kage in history.

This is ofc by hype, Prime Sarutobi have no feats, and by feat old Sarutobi is slightly weaker than prime Orochimaru (not counting edo)

Post by xlab3000 (1,359 posts) See mini bio Level 10

Raikage

Post by ohgodwhy (1,480 posts) See mini bio Level 11

Even old third Hokage would beat Raikage. There's a reason he was known as the God of Shinobi in his prime.

Check Naruto chapter 140, page 3. Kabuto outright states that he was the strongest of the Five Kage at the time, even in his old age.

Prime Hiruzen was without a doubt the strongest Kage.

Post by WhiteLion (153 posts) See mini bio Level 8

@ohgodwhy: People say shit all the time, and yet it doesn't always mean they are right.

How the hell would Kabuto know who is the strongest and he's never fought any of the Kages?

Oonoki would destroy Hiruzen. I don't care if Hizuen is in his prime or not ect. We have no feats nothing in the manga but Hype to say he could do this or that.

What we do know is that A is the third Fastest Character in Naruto, and Hiruzen pulling off Ace won't really happen because he'll probably get one shotted bro.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,480 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@WhiteLion: What we do know is this.

Hiruzen fought the First and Second Hokages on his own for a while. Everyone knew that Hiruzen was well out of shape, Enma even stated he was miserable compared to his prime yet he was still able to fight against both of them for a while. Now admittedly there is no way that the 1st and 2nd were in their prime but the fact still stands that it was 2v1.

Madara stating that ALL the kages were crap compared to the 1st Hokage and that they should all practically be ashamed of themselves. What does this say about the Raikage?

Raikage's speed is massively over hyped because he made Sasgay look like a little girl. IMO that's really not that impressive, Sasgay's speed wasn't out of this world.

Oonoki would destroy Hiruzen? Right sure. Did I mention the part where Hiruzen fought against the 1st, 2nd and Orochimaru? Did I also forget to mention that Orochimaru is pretty much a kage level himself. Why's Oonoki getting so hyped anyway? Because of what he did to Sasgay?

Kabuto's not the only one to have made that statement. Iruka said it too and so did Orochimaru. It's also in the first databook. Hiruzen in his prime was the God of Shinobi, just accept that fact and move on. In his old age, he may have lost a lot of chakra but his techniques would have remained.

Post by waybig1010101 (2,272 posts) See mini bio Level 13

old third hokage fought and defeated the first and second hokage and both of them were immortal and almost took orochimaru down with him too. So in his prime i think he'll win.

Post by SpeedForceSpider (4,803 posts) See mini bio Level 15

@ohgodwhy: I enjoyed reading the "Sasgay" bit. I lol'd, I hate him too.

Post by WhiteLion (153 posts) See mini bio Level 8

@ohgodwhy:

Really man?

Okay lets debate.

First. I'm not saying Hizruen is garbage, but I'm notone to join the hype either.

Hiruzen fought 1st and 2nd Hokage even though they did not want to fight him. Orochimaru did not re-enter the fight until Hiruzen summoned Enma making it a 2 on 3. Was Hiruzen in his prime no? Was he impressive yes, but even so. All Orochimaru really did was use his Kunasagi for a little bit, set it down and engaged into hand to hand combat. Orochimaru was even on top of him and decided to talk trash and gloat as usual instead of actually ending the fight. That was his fault. Also you really want to compare Edo Madara who wasn't being controlled to Edo Hokages who really didn't want to fight, and were being controlled and weren't using top Jutsu?

I agree it was a two on one for a little bit, but it was mostly hand to hand combat, but anyway about A and Oonoki.

A is the fastest Naruto character in the series behind. Minato, and Naruto (in his Rikudo Mode). He dodged the Amaterasu, and Juugo's Chakra Canon blast at the same time, while fighting Sasuke, Juugo, and Suigetsu. Moving faster than the Sharingan eye could really see. Being able to Tank a Chidori to the Chest, and his powerful Taijutsu.

On to Oonoki. He Survived two Asteroids/Meteorites being dropped on him. He posses the Dust Release KKT, which incinerates and completely destroys the opponent on a molecular level. If it wasn't for Obitio Sasuke would have died. This isn't Oonoki vs Hiruzen, but if you want to debate this with me I'm up for it.

The reason why I don't really care what this or that character says is because all it is, is hype. Itachi and Kisame said, if they fought Jiraya together they would both die. Now I'm sure you're very intelligent and would agree with me that that was bull.

Same thing with Jiraiya saying that Kabuto was on Kakashi's lvl at the time in the series of part one yet, he was one shotted after Naruto caught his fist, and hit him with the Rasengan.

The problem is sometimes what the characters say is just filler, and until I see more of what Hiruzen can do I can't base anything off of opinions and assumptions.

Hiruzen has not shown or been stated to be very fast in combat, and A has. That's why I'm giving the battle to A.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,480 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@WhiteLion: A is the one who's overhyped.

I'd say the mistake is comparing Sasuke and Juugo to the 1st and 2nd. It's a whole different ball game, the 1st and 2nd would be leagues faster and leagues more powerful, unless you want to try and convince me that Sasuke could take one of them on. Like I said in another thread, speed is relative. Although it may have looked like a slow battle between Hiruzen and the 2 former kages, they may have actually been fighting at a speed similar to that of A. It's not totally impossible, and to say A is the third fastest character in the series is a fallacy. A thought he was the fastest character before he met Minato, yet he was outsped. He probably thought he was the second fastest character but then Naruto outsped him too. At the end of the day we have no idea how he compares to Hiruzen, they may in fact be very similar in speed and I wouldn't rule that out at all.

1st and 2nd didn't want to fight him? That wouldn't have mattered anyway because they were totally mind controlled, they had no say in the matter. They were fighting at their full power, maybe not using their best jutsus but they weren't holding anything back. Kabuto's Edo Tensei was different from Orochimaru's because he purposefully let his Edo's retain their personalities thinking it would let them fight better and morally cripple his enemies. Trust me the 1st and 2nd were coming at Hiruzen with all they had. Even the Top Anbu members at the time were amazed by the high level of the battle and those are some of the most powerful ninja in Konoha

Oonoki is slow and old. He was also soundly beaten in his youth by Madara, this was shown in a flashback. Yes he has a very powerful jutsu but it's only effective if it connects so in order for it to work he has to trap his enemy. I don't see how he could do that against the God of Shinobi.

It's not all hype, I really don't understand how people can just take all character statements as hype. That's just plain old ridiculous. 3 people stated it, why would the author of the manga state it 3 different times from 3 different people if it wasn't true. It's a manga, things are said for a reason. Also it was in the databook, there's no possible comeback that you can provide for this that isn't wrong. Hiruzen in his prime was the GOD OF SHINOBI, he would've taken any of the Kage on easily.

Either way, the thirds been revived so we'll see what he can do now. As far as this battle goes, it's a win for the third.

Post by WhiteLion (153 posts) See mini bio Level 8

@ohgodwhy:

I never compared Juugo or Sugietsu to the 1st and 2nd Hokages anywhere in my reply. I was stating that A is the fastest character in Naruto behind Minato, and Naruto. When I was talking about his Battle with Juugo, and Sasuke I was using it to describe his speed, power and durability. The Manga supports that he is the fastest behind those two. In the Manga no it doesn't support that the Hokages vs Hiruzen were batting at that speed, because again there is nothing to prove that they were. It's all speculation. You claim that me stating A is the third fastest is fallacy, yet you're saying it's possible that both the 1st, 2nd and 3rd are battling at speeds similar to A? Can you prove this? What the manga shows as you pointed out. That Minato is faster than A. Naruto is faster than A. The manga makes it clear, but you can't try to say A and Hiruzen are similar in speed when you have no proof of this, and the manga has shown A to be A High Level Speedter. Dodging Amaterasu, and Juugo's Chakra blast, Him moving faster than the sharingan can see. is Proof of this. Orochimaru didn't have trouble tagging him, nor did either of the Hokages. Also why would I compare, Sasuke to either of them? That was never my point.

Okay, I'm just going to point this out here. I don't know you very well, and I haven't been here as long as you, so I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I need you to make up your mind. You just contradicted yourself.

"Now admittedly there is no way that the 1st and 2nd were in their prime but the fact still stands that it was 2v1."

This is from your previous post. and in the post that I am addressing now. You said.

"They were fighting at their full power, maybe not using their best jutsus but they weren't holding anything back."

Now using your best jutsu is going all out and not holding back. If Itachi didn't use Susaano in a battle that would be holding back, if they didn't use Sharingan in a battle that would be holding back. I don't understand how you not fighting to the best of your abilities is fighting all out and not holding back. Explain that to me please.

An Anbu Memeber's input means very little to me they are irrelevant. They aren't even named in the manga or shown again really.

As I continue reading. I'm beginning to want to not reply to you, as you're making very silly comments. You're saying Oonoki is weak, and slow because he lost to who? MADARA .... When he was younger... The same dude who could control the Nine Tails, and has really only lost to Harishima..

You're making a claim to me about how you don't understand how most people take everything a character says in the Manga as nothing more than Hype. I never said everything a character says is Hype. I only view it as Hype, if there is nothing else to suggest that it is something else. I even gave examples where one character says something and it doesn't turn out to be true. Not everything a character says in the manga is supposed to be the truth. Look at Obitio Perfect Example. Look at Itachi. Dude was supposed to be a bad guy the whole series, and killed his whole family and claimed he wanted Sasukes eyes. This is his words, but in the Manga it turned out not to be true right? I'm going to go with what is shown, instead of what is said. You said A said and thought he was the fastest before he met Minato right? What was shown? Okay then.

About Dust Release Jutsu. Please Tell me how Oonoki is slow and weak he was keeping up with Deidara in Mid Air with his flying ability, and even was able hang in there with Madara, Carry Turtle Island with his Jutsu, and even Survive the impact of two Meteorites? When Hiruzen was getting hit with Taijutsu, and ninjutsu? If you don't see that let me help you out. Being Called God of Shinobi doesn't help him in anyway. All it is is just a title. Did he get it for nothing? No, but until he actually proves what he can besides his fight from Orochimaru and Co. I'm going to jump on the if he was in his Prime Bus. There is no proof on how powerful he was or ect. Is it completely fair yes and no. We don't have anything else to judge him on beside his fight with Orochimaru. You also say Oonoki is old? So what? Jiraiya's Old, Madara's Old, Tsunade's Old, and so was Chiyo but you're going to try to down play Oonoki do to age, but defend Hiruzen in his old age? How is that justified or even fair?

You also want to come at me with data book crap, come on dude. You also say that three people in the Manga said this. So what? It's all he say she say. Majority of people in Konoha somehow thought that the Sharigan was a different form of the Byakugan. Guess what? It's not.

Having a tittle doesn't mean shit. God of Shinobi is just a damn title. You can't post to me saying Hiruzen in his would have taken any of the Kage easily. Why because there is no feats, you have no proof it's only word of mouth bs. If I and six other people on this forum say that you can run faster than Usan Bolt despite you never showing what you have done or can do it doesn't make it true because we said you can now does it?

Lets address the Data book. It says Stat Wise both Orochimaru, Jiraiya and Itachi are higher than Hiruzen in stats by 1.5. Even Tsunade is higher than him by 1 whole stat How is that possible if Hiruzen is the God of Shinobi? He should be out classing them by leaps and bounds, but in fact he is under all of them, yet he is supposed to be the strongest. His Sun Asuma is only 1.5 stats below him. Databooks are unreliable and they aren't even used any more. You say he'd mop the floor with each of the Kages with ease? You use a statement from characters that say he was the strongest out of all the 5 Kages even in his old age? Prove it to me right now. I will personally type out how each of those 5 Kage would whip his ass.

Even now he's revived, but until he actually shows something in combat that can prove that he can easily whip them, you're whole argument is fallacy. Now like I said I don't know you, and I don't mean to come off rude, but dude until there is proof I don't assume anything.

Post by ohgodwhy (1,480 posts) See mini bio Level 11

@WhiteLion said:

@ohgodwhy:

I never compared Juugo or Sugietsu to the 1st and 2nd Hokages anywhere in my reply. I was stating that A is the fastest character in Naruto behind Minato, and Naruto. When I was talking about his Battle with Juugo, and Sasuke I was using it to describe his speed, power and durability. The Manga supports that he is the fastest behind those two. In the Manga no it doesn't support that the Hokages vs Hiruzen were batting at that speed, because again there is nothing to prove that they were. It's all speculation. You claim that me stating A is the third fastest is fallacy, yet you're saying it's possible that both the 1st, 2nd and 3rd are battling at speeds similar to A? Can you prove this? What the manga shows as you pointed out. That Minato is faster than A. Naruto is faster than A. The manga makes it clear, but you can't try to say A and Hiruzen are similar in speed when you have no proof of this, and the manga has shown A to be A High Level Speedter. Dodging Amaterasu, and Juugo's Chakra blast, Him moving faster than the sharingan can see. is Proof of this. Orochimaru didn't have trouble tagging him, nor did either of the Hokages. Also why would I compare, Sasuke to either of them? That was never my point.

Okay, I'm just going to point this out here. I don't know you very well, and I haven't been here as long as you, so I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I need you to make up your mind. You just contradicted yourself.

"Now admittedly there is no way that the 1st and 2nd were in their prime but the fact still stands that it was 2v1."

This is from your previous post. and in the post that I am addressing now. You said.

"They were fighting at their full power, maybe not using their best jutsus but they weren't holding anything back."

Now using your best jutsu is going all out and not holding back. If Itachi didn't use Susaano in a battle that would be holding back, if they didn't use Sharingan in a battle that would be holding back. I don't understand how you not fighting to the best of your abilities is fighting all out and not holding back. Explain that to me please.

An Anbu Memeber's input means very little to me they are irrelevant. They aren't even named in the manga or shown again really.

As I continue reading. I'm beginning to want to not reply to you, as you're making very silly comments. You're saying Oonoki is weak, and slow because he lost to who? MADARA .... When he was younger... The same dude who could control the Nine Tails, and has really only lost to Harishima..

You're making a claim to me about how you don't understand how most people take everything a character says in the Manga as nothing more than Hype. I never said everything a character says is Hype. I only view it as Hype, if there is nothing else to suggest that it is something else. I even gave examples where one character says something and it doesn't turn out to be true. Not everything a character says in the manga is supposed to be the truth. Look at Obitio Perfect Example. Look at Itachi. Dude was supposed to be a bad guy the whole series, and killed his whole family and claimed he wanted Sasukes eyes. This is his words, but in the Manga it turned out not to be true right? I'm going to go with what is shown, instead of what is said. You said A said and thought he was the fastest before he met Minato right? What was shown? Okay then.

About Dust Release Jutsu. Please Tell me how Oonoki is slow and weak he was keeping up with Deidara in Mid Air with his flying ability, and even was able hang in there with Madara, Carry Turtle Island with his Jutsu, and even Survive the impact of two Meteorites? When Hiruzen was getting hit with Taijutsu, and ninjutsu? If you don't see that let me help you out. Being Called God of Shinobi doesn't help him in anyway. All it is is just a title. Did he get it for nothing? No, but until he actually proves what he can besides his fight from Orochimaru and Co. I'm going to jump on the if he was in his Prime Bus. There is no proof on how powerful he was or ect. Is it completely fair yes and no. We don't have anything else to judge him on beside his fight with Orochimaru. You also say Oonoki is old? So what? Jiraiya's Old, Madara's Old, Tsunade's Old, and so was Chiyo but you're going to try to down play Oonoki do to age, but defend Hiruzen in his old age? How is that justified or even fair?

You also want to come at me with data book crap, come on dude. You also say that three people in the Manga said this. So what? It's all he say she say. Majority of people in Konoha somehow thought that the Sharigan was a different form of the Byakugan. Guess what? It's not.

Having a tittle doesn't mean shit. God of Shinobi is just a damn title. You can't post to me saying Hiruzen in his would have taken any of the Kage easily. Why because there is no feats, you have no proof it's only word of mouth bs. If I and six other people on this forum say that you can run faster than Usan Bolt despite you never showing what you have done or can do it doesn't make it true because we said you can now does it?

Lets address the Data book. It says Stat Wise both Orochimaru, Jiraiya and Itachi are higher than Hiruzen in stats by 1.5. Even Tsunade is higher than him by 1 whole stat How is that possible if Hiruzen is the God of Shinobi? He should be out classing them by leaps and bounds, but in fact he is under all of them, yet he is supposed to be the strongest. His Sun Asuma is only 1.5 stats below him. Databooks are unreliable and they aren't even used any more. You say he'd mop the floor with each of the Kages with ease? You use a statement from characters that say he was the strongest out of all the 5 Kages even in his old age? Prove it to me right now. I will personally type out how each of those 5 Kage would whip his ass.

Even now he's revived, but until he actually shows something in combat that can prove that he can easily whip them, you're whole argument is fallacy. Now like I said I don't know you, and I don't mean to come off rude, but dude until there is proof I don't assume anything.

Relax, we're having a debate you don't need to take everything so personally. I'm not taking anything you say personally.

From what I'm seeing you seem to think that the Raikage's speed makes him nigh on unstoppable when this just simply isn't the case. He's fast, I know that but like I said there's no way he's as fast as you're making him out to be. How about the fact that B was able to react to him? Plus if his speed is so much of an advantage in battle then why hasn't he just taken out all the villages? As well as this, even though he did dodge Sasuke's Amaterasu, he still would've died in his battle against Sasuke had Gaara not intervened via Amaterasu spike up the ass. He's not exactly the most intelligent character in the series.

We also know that Sasuke by his own admission only beat Orochimaru because Orochimaru was in a massively weakened state. Yet Hiruzen was fighting Orochimaru, the 1st and the 2nd on his own, with Enma of course but that's his summon. Orochimaru is a Kage level enemy, he's not weak so you can't really use "Orochimaru had no problem tagging him" as an argument. In fact Orochimaru killed the 4th Kazekage by himself.

You've misunderstood what I meant when I said they weren't holding back but not using their best jutsus. What I meant was that they were physically not holding back at all because they were just mindless puppets, however at the same time this makes them slightly weaker because they're not able to fight logically and use the most appropriate jutsus for any give ocassion. This is the exactly the reason why Kabuto gave his summons some of their personality back. The Kages were still coming at Hiruzen with full physical force though and a variety of powerful jutsus.

Why do you think the losing to Madara fact doesn't stand. It's pretty clear that Madara was able to easily dominate Oonoki yet lost in a fight against Harishma. Yet Hiruzen was able to fight evenly against Harishma and Tobirama. Oonoki didn't take the full brunt of the two meteorites, he used his dust release to massively decrease the weight of the meteorites so they would do less damage. Plus I believe he was getting outside help. It's still an impressive feat no doubt, but not really a durability feat because he was using a jutsu to decrease it's weight. I don't see how that would help in a battle of ninjutsu. Dust release is very powerful jutsu but it has to connect and I don't think Hiruzen would give him a chance. Oonoki being old is justified by him constantly complaining about being old and having a really bad back. Not the greatest arguement ever, but no one else complains. He seems to be far older than Jiraiaya, Tsunade and even Hiruzen anyway having been at least 20+ when he fought against Madara.

You can't compare a storyline hype to a hype of strength. Itachi being a good guy was plot. There's no hype in that about his strength. You've got to look at it like this, they're not real characters. If the author decides to make them say a statement such as "Jiraiya is more powerful than me" then he's made them say that statement for a reason. Why else would they say it, just to make themselves sound weak? Maybe you think you know more than the author?

Finally let's just look at it like this, you keep saying Hiruzen has no feats....

Hiruzen fought against the 1st, 2nd and Orochimaru while in old age. Not only this, he took out the 1sts and 2nds legs without anyone even realising he'd put explosive tags on them, that's speed. They would've been killed if it hadn't been for the Edo. There is no possible argument you can make to deny this feat.

What's Raikage's greatest feat? Do you think Raikage could take on the 1st, 2nd and Orochimaru?

Post by WhiteLion (153 posts) See mini bio Level 8

@ohgodwhy:

Dude, I'm very busy right now, but first off. I'm not taking any of this personally. Your logic if very flip floppy. You say stuff, and you aren't very clear,. You've contradicted yourself more than twice. Wait until later please, and I will give you a full reply and demonstrate why you're not making any sense, and making it hard to believe you really know what you're talking about. I'll be back later tonight.

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