Renji & Byakuya Vs Zoro & Mihawk

Topic started by One_Piece_God on Aug. 25, 2012. Last post by dwade 2 years ago.
Post by All_StarSupes (778 posts) See mini bio Level 10

Pointless battle for the moment. You have to wait until Mihawk shows us more of his power.

Post by Yusuke52 (429 posts) See mini bio Level 15
Online Now

@taichokage: Long range is not a problem for Mihawk. Either is flying to be honest, he alone can pratically solo this fight with difficuility.

That was from a casual swing of his sword that luffy just about managed to dodge thanks to Kenbunshoku.

This shows him tracking a Gear 2 Luffy admist a full scale battle at long range with no effort what so ever. He then with his eyes closed, fires a wind blade at him which was fast enough to hit him precisely amidist the combat whilst luffy was moving in and around people. He will be able to tag everyone on the opposing team just by doing this alone.

And despite its size he also casually deflected bullets with Yoru with only the slightest touch, that he could change their course with relative ease, but unfortunately I cant find that feat myself. I have far to many volumes and I can't for the life of me remember in which one it took place, if anyone can remind me what volume its in I can go and post that too.

He is one of the verses top tier characters, and regared as the greatest swordsman in the series currently.

Stamina wise - He showed no signs of fatigue in the Battle for Marineford, and that went on for a good few hours before it came to a close.

Strength wise - Given that the overall strength of the verse is rather high, its safe to assume that he is very strong physically, at least as strong as he equals such as the Admirals. Jackies feat is not all that impressive to be honest, while she was strong physically no doubt, overall her physical strength was nowhere near standard One Piece levels, so saying its arguable is not true.

Durability - Same again he should be around equal to at least the admirals and they were taking hits from an enraged Whitebeard and surviving.

He should be around their level given that Akainu could tank an attack of this level that split Marineford in two.

Kido is a problem but saying it cant be broken by strength alone is not true.

Hachigen stated himself that Kensei managed to break free from his level 63 Bakudo Sajo Sabaku with strength alone (*He states level 60 but it is in fact a level 63 Bakudo, most likely generalising everything the the 60s area). So that puts the "Kido cant be broken by just strength" problem to rest.

I have no problem believe that Zoro and Mihawk will be able to break out of an inferior kido practitioners sealing spells with strength alone, given that Kensei managed to break out of Hachigen's Level 63 Sajo Sabaku, who is much more proficient at using them.

Post by Fehafare (9,439 posts) See mini bio Level 13

Yusuke... it's nice to have you here. I could say that you are a ray of hope for this battle section which seems to get worse as time goes.

Post by Yusuke52 (429 posts) See mini bio Level 15
Online Now

@Fehafare: Thanks, that's very nice of you to say. Just doing what I can.

Post by DBZ_universe (15,734 posts) See mini bio Level 17

@Yusuke52: That post was EPIC!!

I take it back... I forgot that Kensei broke the Bakudo with sheer strength..

Post by Yusuke52 (429 posts) See mini bio Level 15
Online Now

@DBZ_universe: Thanks to you aswell.

It was always safe to asume that it was possible to break out of their Bakudo with just strength alone, but it was deemed pointless to try as reiatsu could do the job just as easily and with less effort.

Post by DBZ_universe (15,734 posts) See mini bio Level 17

@Yusuke52: I agree... but also doesn't Reiatsu protect someone from physical damage?? Kenpachi has done that before...

Post by taichokage (13,650 posts) See mini bio Level 20
Sorry I can't post pictures, but you are acting like anyone here has brute strength on par with Kensei. He is much stronger. http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v42/c366/7.html , http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v43/c377/6.html , both of these feats were done when he was in his non full hollow form which he used when he broke the kido and which is stronger than a vizard form and probably the bankai as well. Both are a mere punch from him. One in bankai form and one in vizard mode. I don't recall Zoro doing anything on this scale with brute strength. Even if they have comparable feats, they use swords which is much stronger in slicing, but take that away and their own strength is not as high. They could not replicate such feats with their bare hands. My point is that they could not break kido if Kensei needed effort to do so in full hollow form.
Post by Yusuke52 (429 posts) See mini bio Level 15
Online Now

@DBZ_universe: Given most of their attacks are reiatsu based anyway its hard to say, but it more than likely works in a similar way that Chakra Cloaks or Busoshoku Haki works, in that it creates a semi invisible layer of armor over their body which is akin to Hierro. Kenpachi has but he is one of the few in the Gotie 13 that I can think of who has managed it. But you have to ask yourself has he been subject to an attack that casually cleaved a (Likely) 2-3 kilometer long Iceberg flash frozen by Akoji?

Not to mention that fact that this might effect might be exclusive to Kenpachi only. Byakuya has never shown any real resistance to up close physical attacks, or his own blades for that matter, he has always tried to outmanouver said attacks and avoid them entirelly. Which could only mean that he can't utilize his reiatsu in the same way Kenpachi does. The same goes for Renji but he is more of a tank than anything else, which is something that will get him killed here very early on.

Post by Yusuke52 (429 posts) See mini bio Level 15
Online Now

@taichokage: Umm I think you might want to check those "feats" for Kensei again there.

Im not acting like anyone here has brute strength on par with Kensei, im saying its more than likely they are stronger overall than most people in bleach given that the standard strength levels in the show itself are much higher.

You also seem to think that they can use Kido without stating the type, name and number (Excluding the incantation of course). By the time Byakuya says "Bakudo 61: Rikujokoro" he will have already been cut by Mihawks ranged slash. Kensei is weak compaired to the standard level of strength displayed in One Piece, unless you are saying Zoro and Mihawk are below standard?

To release their Shikai they have to utter the command phrase and and say its name. To activate his Bankai, Byakuya has to stand still and drop his blade into the ground while saying "Bankai: Senbonzakura Kageyoshi". It seems like team 2 has many openings to get some free attacks in.

You say without their swords they are useless against them. I dont see why you bring that up, fact is they have their weapons, fact is Byakuya and Renji have not endured an attack the cleaved a multi kilometer long flash frozen tsunami, frozen by Akoji, in 2 with enough force to send the top half flying up into the air and drop down on the ships below with a casual sword swing in that direction, Ichigo in his FGT mode managed to destroy hills with sword swings and Aizen was shocked by his strength, Are you saying that Byakuya will laugh off Mihawks ability to cut Tsunamis in 2 from a MUCH greater range than Ichigo did against the hills?.

Ichigo also used an attack on a similar scale with similar effects (Outside of being condensed in reiatsu) called Mugetsu which condensed his reishi into a single powerful attack with which to kill aizen with... and he had to lose all his powers to do it, and it didnt even kill him. Mihawk did it by swinging his sword in that general direction without using any extra power outside of his own strength and speed (Not the killing Aizen part, the range, style, and strength of the attack.

they use swords which is much stronger in slicing, but take that away and their own strength is not as high.

You say this like you dont need strenth to be good with a sword. Cutting power is related to the physical strength of the person wielding the weapon. Ichigo had great strength when he cleaved hills in 2, the ranged part of this attack comes from the strength and speed he put behind the attack.

All the sword does is you to focus your strength on a smaller area to make cutting an object easier, thats why we use knifes to cut food. Can you chop a block of wood without putting a good amount of strength behind your attempt? Any feat of them cutting without the use of special energy can be considered a strength feat as well as a speed feat. That how I view it, some may not share my viewpoint but thats for them to decide. I consider Ichigo strong because of his feat, and its also the reason why I consider Mihawk to be strong enought to break out of a level 61 baukdo when someone physically weaker than him managed to do so.

Zoro is much weaker over all and he will strugle like Kensei did trying to break free from it.

Another fun fact is that despite being in a war with most of the new world pirates and marines, fighting countless devil fruit users and swordsmen, attacking Whitebeards flagship on his own and many other daring feats, he remained unharmed (I also believe he is still one of the few people in the series to have never been harmed at all). Byakuya on the other hand showed up and attacked As Nodt, cutting its hand. He then had his Bankai stolen and was killed (I hold out hope he is still alive) by it one chapter later.

Im not downplaying Bleach, if you recall we have agreed before on Bleach battles. Im saying Mihawk is far to powerful to lose to a mid tier captain and his Leuitenant, when he had to balls to directly attack Whitebeard and his crew without so much as flinching. No to mention going toe to toe with some of the more powerful pirates at Marineford, and still came out on top without a scratch.

Post by DBZ_universe (15,734 posts) See mini bio Level 17

@Yusuke52: Good point!! Byakuya hasn't shown that type of feats.. only Kenpachi and Aizen of course..

but do you think Renjis bankai's kido blast would be a problem here?? or Byakuya's bankai??

Post by taichokage (13,650 posts) See mini bio Level 20
Actually those who have achieved bankai do not have to verbalize their shikai release. For bankai, yes. But Byakuya has managed to release his bankai before the top notch speedster Zommari, Tsukishima and every other opponent he needed it for. You also seem to forget that Byakuya himself is very fast and is a flier. I highly doubt he could be tagged even if he released bankai. And Renji's bankai is possibly more dangerous against these guys. It can be shattered and reforms, and it has the bone cannon blast. And I still don't see why you act like Bleach is the only one who tend to chant their attacks even when not necessary. It is the rule not the exception to hear "Gomu gomu no!" or "Arm Point!" or "64 Pound Hou!" and the like for their notable attacks, the same as Bleach, yet I don't see people getting decapitated then. It's a common thing in shonen anime. Both One Piece and Bleach are guilty of this. I could just as easily say Byakuya would take off Mihawk's head based on that reason.
Post by Yusuke52 (429 posts) See mini bio Level 15
Online Now

@DBZ_universe: Like i said in one of my last posts, they could cause potential problems but its the fact that they need to first say the type of kido (Bakudo/Hado), then say the number and name of the kido in question in order for it to work. Another problem is I cant see anything but high end kido working well against them, that or using the full incantation which would be suicide given the speed of team 2.

I cant recall anyone every using a Kido without going through the formalities, even Yamamoto had to utter "Hado 91: Ittokaso" in order to use it. And only the strongest of Captains can release their Shikai without the command and name, Yamamoto being one such example (When he encased Aizen Gin and Kaname in Jokaku Enjo). He is also able to maintain the abilities used even if Ryujin Jakka is resealed. These are thing I doubt Byakuya is able to do let alone Renji.

The way I can sum it all up is that to do anything of substantial worth team 1 has to broadcast it out loud before they can use it. Kido, Shikai, Bankai etc and against weaker opponents that would not matter to much, but Zoro and Mihawk are far to powerful individually let alone together to give yourself opening like that.

Renji's Bankai I can honestly say wont do much in the way of harming them, he will be the first to fall. Byakuya's Bankai is better and could cause a problem if it could hit them, but, again they have the speed to avoid it not to mention Byakuya has to stand still to activate it, that in itself will get him killed. Even if he had his Bankai active from the get go, he could draw out the fight longer but he would eventually get cut in 2 by Mihawk.

Post by taichokage (13,650 posts) See mini bio Level 20
Also (sorry, but since I'm using a tablet, I can't reply) but Byakuya does not have to stand still to activate his bankai. See the Byakuya/Kenpachi vs Yammy battle when he activates it.
Post by Kurohige (3,742 posts) See mini bio Level 19

I don't think Byakuya will be too much of a problem here,Note that this is before he had haki. I will say for the Kuma feat, he could have just read his hand motions, but he dodged after they were fired, so at least his burst of speed are insanely quick, but by no means am I saying Zoro himself is light-speed or anywhere close. Until later feats you can regard that feat as hyperbole.

As for speed we see in Zoro's fight with Braham, Braham uses the air and jumps behind Zoro and fires off two shots with his gun, his guns make a hug flash and Zoro manages to react and dodge:

Then before Zoro even lands Braham in already in front of him firing off more rounds which Zoro dodges and then counters

Braham shows his own speed (Looks like flash step considering he is pretty high in the air now, he then fires at Zoro who once again dodges.
Braham shows his own speed (Looks like flash step considering he is pretty high in the air now, he then fires at Zoro who once again dodges.

But let us get on the flight thing, even though Byakuya and Renji is more or less up-close fighters and will most likely go in for melee, let us assume he will fly in the air right from the get go: Here we have Braham use the milky dial allowing for flight:

Zoro then dodges a point blank shot, then cuts a giant eel in half

Zoro with a shot leg still dodges more bullets then leaps a great distance away, he only got shot in the first place due to the eel distacting him

The only reason Zoro was having that much trouble was because of the flash from his gun's, we then see later Zoro take him out from afar with his thirty six pound canon. He did an even stronger move when he fough Ohm, and blew right through his irion whipe which went through Zoro's pound canon.

Ohm who is faster and stronget than Braham puts up an iron wall before Zoro can blitz him
Ohm who is faster and stronget than Braham puts up an iron wall before Zoro can blitz him
However while just getting out of his fight with Braham, being shot in the leg, being smashed into the irion wall and being countered he still dodges/tanks three of Ohm's attacks.
However while just getting out of his fight with Braham, being shot in the leg, being smashed into the irion wall and being countered he still dodges/tanks three of Ohm's attacks.
Ohm's attacks blows right through's Zoro's making a huge explosion yet Zoro still dodged.
Ohm's attacks blows right through's Zoro's making a huge explosion yet Zoro still dodged.
Yet Zoro breaks through the iron whip attack that blew through his pound canon, and this is even before the CP9 arc where zoro gets much stronger.not to mention this is a flying slash that could get Byakuya in the air and arguably go toe to toe with his bankai, and this is before the CP9 arc and the Time skip.
Yet Zoro breaks through the iron whip attack that blew through his pound canon, and this is even before the CP9 arc where zoro gets much stronger.not to mention this is a flying slash that could get Byakuya in the air and arguably go toe to toe with his bankai, and this is before the CP9 arc and the Time skip.

and not to mention the Whiskey peak feat, you know whiskey peak?

The scene where 100 bounty hunters are looking straight at Zoro and the guy was able to move from the roof to among the crowd so fast that the hunters didnt even notice him move.

Post by Yusuke52 (429 posts) See mini bio Level 15
Online Now

@taichokage:

You also seem to forget that Byakuya himself is very fast and is a flier. I highly doubt he could be tagged even if he released bankai.

It took a Gear 2 luffy using a precog ability to dodge Mihawks swing which went on to completely cleave an Iceberg a few hundred meters away in 2. Before hand he tagged him with a wind blade with his eyes closed in a crowd while he was moving through them without a single problem while Luffy was using Gear 2 and Soru to try and get away from him. His psudo-flght wont save him from an attack that can reach hundreds of meters in a split second and hit with the force of a low-mid town buster.

It can be shattered and reforms, and it has the bone cannon blast. And I still don't see why you act like Bleach is the only one who tend to chant their attacks even when not necessary.

And it still wont stand up to Mihawks attack. The difference betweent Kido and standard attacks are very different given that one is a spell and one is a physical or sword strike. Most spells need to be named to be use unless you have proof of them being used on a level where they could hurt an Admiral level opponent without the use of any incantation at all? Its not mandatory to say Gomu Gomu no Rocket, that is there for effect. But it is mandatory to use the incantations provided for Kido given that the strength of the Kido is dependant on the words used to form it, this was something that has been refrenced many times previous. Without an incantation at all they might as well be spitting water at them for all the good it will do.

Also (sorry, but since I'm using a tablet, I can't reply) but Byakuya does not have to stand still to activate his bankai. See the Byakuya/Kenpachi vs Yammy battle when he activates it.

Its fine I was going to go off and get some sleep anyway. That is an instance I overlooked, every other time he uses it he stood still. I will conceed that.

Post by DBZ_universe (15,734 posts) See mini bio Level 17

@Yusuke52: Well I guess ama have to go with what you say because It's true... but wouldn't flying be a problem for OP team?? Byakuya can control his bankai from above... while Renji works as a decoy... tho he might get killed... lol

Post by Yusuke52 (429 posts) See mini bio Level 15
Online Now

@DBZ_universe: I cant see flying being a problem at all, since both Mihawk and Zoro have ranged attacks. Zoro can handle Renji and Byakuya would go down from one swing unless he can tank an attack of that level. Which going by previous fights, he cannot. He was killed (Still hold out hope for him being alive, after the trolling Naruto pulled off recently I am open to anything being possible through the power of friendship now) by his own Bankai and it is not as destructive as Mihawk is.

Post by DBZ_universe (15,734 posts) See mini bio Level 17

@Yusuke52: True...

One swing of Mihawk can finish this fight... also I too hope Byakuya didn't die..

Post by dwade (7 posts) See mini bio Level 3

JAJJAJAJJAJA ITS JUST LIKE THIS XD

@YouFinished said:

@One_Piece_God: lol, How else are you supposed to respond to a primitive argument such as "Your opinion doesn't matter" and "Because I say so" in a debate where we rely on facts.
Mandatory Network

Submissions can take several hours to be approved.

Save ChangesCancel