Battles

@DevilMayhem666 said:

  And solar system busting statements are never brought  up again or displayed after this. Even Goku and Vegeta couldn't stop Buu's huge planet buster that only destoryed earth and they were stronger than Cell at the time. 

Solar system busting may not be brought up, but universal destruction is in regards to buu.  
Vegeta did stomp one of Buu's blasts that was going to destroy the earth. 
The big one that destroyed the earth only destroyed the earth, it was concentrated in on the earth, Unless you want to argue buu is only as powerful as cell. 
 

 how Vegeta thought that he was the strongest in the universe during SS arc, when he knew for a fact that guys like Freeza and his minions were stronger.   

At the time Toriyama wanted to end Z after Vegeta, Freeza wasn't thought up yet. 
 

 Another example would be 17 saying that no one is strong enough to fight him, when his and 18's power are said to be equal or close(IIRC).   
"

In his data no one was supposed to be as strong as him. 
16 was not in his data, nor were cell or fpssj, ssj2 ect. 
 
Cell gives an exact statement.  
Cell is the perfect bio-android, he should be able to calculate his own power, he knew just how many humans to absorb before he became >> Piccolo, he knew how much stronger he would get after each android was absorbed. 
 

 Cell at the time. Pretty much, an arrogant villian such as Cell, who is possibly  the most overconfident and egotistical Dragon Ball character ever is the only one in the entire series to make that statement, which was out of nowhere, btw.   

No, statements like that are always made - Buu will destroy the universe, ect. 
Cell's data showed him no one would be able to beat him, thus the overconfidence. 
I don't see why cell would give an exact specific amount of destructive power he had if not to show how strong he is. If he would have said "Ill destroy everything" or something fine. However he specifically said not only the planet but entire solar system. 
 

 
And yes, Goku made a jump in power on Namek due to a near death experience and ssj (have take those two things into account).   

Also take into account the near death experience gohan had, and ssj2. Cell is near that level. 
 

 However, someone on another site had calculated  how much power it would take to go from planet busting to star busting and IIRC you can have the power to destory the earth billions of times over and you still wouldn't have the power to destory the sun let alone an entire solar system or something like that.
 

This assumes a linear relationship between powerlevel (ki) and destructive ability. Not so as this would mean that Roshi, Ten, and Yamucha, with ki's of 139, 180, and 125ish, would have been able to overpower Piccolo daimao, who's powerlevel is 200. Piccolo Daimao was much more than a match for all of them together, Roshi even explicitly says as much. 
 
And there is not way to guage how much more powerful Cell is then say Freeza except for his statement. As I said, we know he is many many times stronger, how much so? Enough to destroy the solar system. There is no reason to ignore this.  
 

As for the Freiza bait, it's most likely that he destoryed Vegeta in his first form but it's unknown if it was instantly or not. Well, in the manga at least. 

I don't know what you mean "bait" 
Freeza did destroy planet vegeta in his first form, as seen in the bardock special. 
 
But anyway in the manga he says he usually destroys planets instantly  
 

@DevilMayhem666: Ahh, you first responded in a PM so I answered part of it there. 
 

Solar system busting may not be brought up, but universal destruction is in regards to buu.  
Vegeta did stomp one of Buu's blasts that was going to destroy the earth. 
The big one that destroyed the earth only destroyed the earth, it was concentrated in on the earth, Unless you want to argue buu is only as powerful as cell.             

Buu had no reason to try to confine the damage and I do believe that he is stronger than Cell, just on a higher level of planet busting.  And where does it state that Buu is a universe buster in the manga?  Plus I'm not denying the fact Vegeta stopped the first blast. 

I PM'd u the Buu scan. 
Its ok you think there on higher level pf planet busting, but when we get exact statements in the manga to say how much above planet busting, it holds water. 
 

At the time Toriyama wanted to end Z after Vegeta, Freeza wasn't thought up yet.     

He wanted it to end at Freeza saga,iirc.     

After Vegeta, after Freeza, after Cell, there's even rumors after Picolo Daimao. 

 

In his data no one was supposed to be as strong as him. 
16 was not in his data, nor were cell or fpssj, ssj2 ect. 
 
Cell gives an exact statement.  
Cell is the perfect bio-android, he should be able to calculate his own power, he knew just how many humans to absorb before he became >> Piccolo, he knew how much stronger he would get after each android was absorbed.     

Not even 18?
Cell said he got caught up in all the fun killing that he got too strong for Piccolo. He didn't know his own strength until it was displayed. And where does it state that he know exactly how much stronger? If that were the case than why did he started the cell games stating to was to test his strength? 
    

1) DBZ characters can sense ki and power and usually know what their max output would be, i.e Vegeta knew he could destroy the earth, Roshi knew he could destroy the moon. They sense how much ki they have, and have gathered.
2) Cell is also a bio android and has data and calculations programmed in, they were un aware of ssj2 and if the Z senshi surpassd their power (hence the cell games) but why wouldn't they be able to compute the amount of energy Cell gathered at one time? 
  

 

In his data no one was supposed to be as strong as him. 
16 was not in his data, nor were cell or fpssj, ssj2 ect. 
 
Cell gives an exact statement.  
Cell is the perfect bio-android, he should be able to calculate his own power, he knew just how many humans to absorb before he became >> Piccolo, he knew how much stronger he would get after each android was absorbed.     

Not even 18?
Cell said he got caught up in all the fun killing that he got too strong for Piccolo. He didn't know his own strength until it was displayed. And where does it state that he know exactly how much stronger? If that were the case than why did he started the cell games stating to was to test his strength? 

 

18 is his twin sister, but by statements he is a bit stronger. 
Cell had to test to see if any one surpassed his strength. 
I may know how much I can bench, but I don't know who can beat me until we have a bench off, same kinda principle with the cell games. 
 

    

Also take into account the near death experience gohan had, and ssj2. Cell is near that level.     

Care to refresh my memory of the near death experience part? And he was only half as strong as Gohan since the beam struggle was when Gohan lost half his power.  
    

Son Gohan received a zenkai 
And yes, Gohan's 50 percent beam barely beat out cells. 
The bast by gohan used most of its energy up overpowering cell's, there was not much left of it. 
And cell (before spc) was nearly destroying the earth by just standing there in powered up form. 
 

This assumes a linear relationship between powerlevel (ki) and destructive ability. Not so as this would mean that Roshi, Ten, and Yamucha, with ki's of 139, 180, and 125ish, would have been able to overpower Piccolo daimao, who's powerlevel is 200. Piccolo Daimao was much more than a match for all of them together, Roshi even explicitly says as much. 
 
And there is not way to guage how much more powerful Cell is then say Freeza except for his statement. As I said, we know he is many many times stronger, how much so? Enough to destroy the solar system. There is no reason to ignore this.      

Keep in mind that strength(physical), speed, and skill also plays a huge factor. Plus what do they destory things with most of the time?
    

Ki. 
All stats can be amped up with ki. 
The amount of ki determines the amount that can be destroyed via energy. 
 

  
I find Cell being 14,332,614,466,498.7 times more powerful than Freeza highly doubtful.   If that blast was a solar system buster the sheer force would have torn the Earth apart    just by touching it.  
   

Well you can only speculate on how much stronger you think he is, but #1 your assuming a linear relationship between ki level and destructive power, it is more likely an exponential one, and # 2 we know he is much stronger, then we get a specific statement to say exactly how much stronger.  
And the earth would not necessarily have been destroyed, because the beams weren't really in contact with the planet, and the beams used all they energy they had in the struggle, there was not much left of gohans beams after it overpowered and killed cell. 
 

 May I remind you that Cell also has personlity traits of  overconfidence  characters.

 Maybe, but what does that have to do with assessing the specific power output at a single time? 
An Olympic weightlifter may be cocky as sh%T but it doesn't mean he is isn't as strong as he says.

@De

I PM'd u the Buu scan. 
Its ok you think there on higher level pf planet busting, but when we get exact statements in the manga to say how much above planet busting, it holds water.      

 That doesn't mean he's a universe buster. That could be interpreted in more than just one way. Obviously he meant Buu would continue to kill all life in the universe (like he did  before he was sealed) if he wasn't stopped. 

 
 
It's like this statement here. 

 

 
 
 

      
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Obviously he doesn't mean that Cell's goal is to bust the universe but to kill all that lives. Same applies to Buu's case. You can't take statements like that literally. That's like saying Babadi really believe that Gohan would go all the way to the edge of the universe. That's what you call a metaphor. 
 

Thats your interpretation. 
In the anime buu actually starts to destroy the universe, expanding on the manga statements, 
Prove its a metaphor, its clearly not. 
"I've gathered enough ki not only to destroy the earth but the entire solar system" 
Im sorry this is a direct exact statement, made by someone who is many times more powerful than a confirmed planet buster. 

And it's okay if you believe that Cell is a solar system buster. I'm just stating my doubts, such as the fact it was contradicted by Buu. I

It was not contradicted by Buu at all, if anything it was confirms it. 
 

 After Vegeta, after Freeza, after Cell, there's even rumors after Picolo Daimao. 

Hmm...I'm pretty sure it was Freeza saga. I'll have to look into it. 

He has wanted to end it numerous times. 
 

1) DBZ characters can sense ki and power and usually know what their max output would be, i.e Vegeta knew he could destroy the earth, Roshi knew he could destroy the moon. They sense how much ki they have, and have gathered.
2) Cell is also a bio android and has data and calculations programmed in, they were un aware of ssj2 and if the Z senshi surpassd their power (hence the cell games) but why wouldn't they be able to compute the amount of energy Cell gathered at one time? 

1) If you're referring to SS arc Vegeta, he couldn't sense ki at that time and the Roshi thing was back when Dragon Ball was more of a gag manga. \  

I was refering to Android saga vegeta who said any serious blast could destroy the earth, vs 18. 
Saying DB was a gag manga is no excuse to downplay a feat, in fact DBZ is nearly as much as a gag manga as DB. 
Like this for example: 
 

   

Anyway 

*Piccolo sr. believed that he could output enough power to destory Goku.
*Piccolo jr. believed that he could output enough power to destory Raditz during their first encounter.
*Yamcha believed that he could output enough power to destory that one Saibaman.
*Goku, King Kai, Krillin and Gohan all believed that the spirit bomb had enough power to destory Vegeta.
*Goku, King Kai, Krillin, Gohan, and Piccolo all believed that the spirit bomb could output enough power to destory Freeza.
*King Kai and Goku believed that Freeza outputted enough power to destory Namek in one shot. 
*Piccolo believed that he could output enough power to destory Cell during their second encounter.

See where I'm getting at? I could probably go on.
 

This matters not, your comparing how a character (say character A) thinks he can do against another characters, (say character B) 
The difference being Character B's true power is an unknown to character A, where as the ki needed to destroy the solar system is an exact value, and I don't think toriyama had cell lie about knowing this value. You may say he's a fallible character or what not, but you'd be comparing DBZ to a thought out literary work. Its not, its about fighting, if a character says he can destroy something, he probably can. Especially since we know he is much more powerful than confirmed planet buster. 
 
Can you honestly tell me you think that Akira Toriyama would sit down, write the kanji (or katakana or whatever) for "destroy the entire solar system" and have cell just be joking about it? 
Why have an exact statement then? Why not say I have enough ki to destroy everyone, or everything?  
 

2)You're forgetting about how Cell was surprised about how much power he gained when he fought Piccolo a second time,16 also thought Vegeta should have been stronger than Perfect Cell when they fought, even Cell commented that Gohan was stronger than he thought. Also where was that calculations programmed thing stated?   
 

Again, him being surprised at how much power he has doesn't mean he could not know the amount of ki necessary to destroy an object.  
In fact it  proves that he can sense how much power he has, therefore he should know if he has enough to destroy the solar system. 
The calculated thing is seen because the androids have specific calculations on how strong the Z senshi should be. And why do you care if it was stated or not? Cell states his claim but you don't accept it. How could you say any other statement then is not hyperbole?  
 

 

Son Gohan received a zenkai 
And yes, Gohan's 50 percent beam barely beat out cells. 
The bast by gohan used most of its energy up overpowering cell's, there was not much left of it. 
And cell (before spc) was nearly destroying the earth by just standing there in powered up form.     

 I remember Gohan getting slapped around a bit but he didn't suffing anying fatal wounds.  Plus Krillin said it "felt like" it was going to destory the earth.
    

I guess Kurrirn is lying to? 
In fact anything ever said is a lie in DBZ, so of course Kurrirn would be lying as well. 
 
 

Well you can only speculate on how much stronger you think he is, but #1 your assuming a linear relationship between ki level and destructive power, it is more likely an exponential one, and # 2 we know he is much stronger, then we get a specific statement to say exactly how much stronger.  
And the earth would not necessarily have been destroyed, because the beams weren't really in contact with the planet, and the beams used all they energy they had in the struggle, there was not much left of gohans beams after it overpowered and killed cell. 

 
Well, after Gohan's ki level dropped, Piccolo commented that his ki wasn't powerful enough to counter Cell's beam right before the beam struggle. And yeah, the attack did make contact with the earth(left that huge crater). 
  

Well, no it didn't make contact with the earth enough to destroy it. 
Like with vegeta's final flash. 
If a beam just slightly touches the planets surface, why would the planet explode? I don't know of any physics, DBU or RL that suggests it would. 
 

  

Maybe, but what does that have to do with assessing the specific power output at a single time? 
An Olympic weightlifter may be cocky as sh%T but it doesn't mean he is isn't as strong as he says.

Cell mention it in his little talk with Piccolo and even displayed it. He has Piccolo's cunning, Vegeta's pride, Goku's laid-back disposition, Freeza's smugness, and the Saiyan lust for battle, etc.  He wasn't overconfident because of "data", he was overconfident because that's just his personality. The other androids know when they were outmatched (minus 17).

Minus 17, so not all the other androids. Just 16 and 18. So, half of the androids. 
Overconfidence may mean he thought he was stronger than anyone else (there true power being an unknown), but it in no way suggests that he would not know his own max destructive output. 

; 
A cocky amateur boxer may claim that he could take out Chuck Norris.  Does that mean he's as tough as he says?

"

Ya know actually Chuck was only a non contact martial artist and a movie actor. 
It is highly probable an Olympic level amateur (especially a heavyweight) could beat him. 
 
But its a mute point, Cell gave a specific description of what he can destroy. It would serve no purpose to have Cell say this if it were not true. 
And as I have said, we know cell is many times greater than confirmed planetbusters, how much more powerful? We have the statement in the manga to directly answer our question, he is a solar system buster.  
 
What is said in the manga >>>> personal opinion.  
 
For most other fictions besides DBZ this wouldn't even be debatable. 
 
If we saw superman lift 1 billion tons, then fly to the sun and increase strength, then have him specifically say he can lift 10 billion tons, we wouldn't doubt it for a second. 

@hitsusatsu11 said:

"

He fcuked up and only destroyed the core, usually his blasts are strong enough to instantly destroy the planet.

"

"The Core will explode on its own" not to mention the 5 minute lag lol.  
 
The question is, how will the core explode if it's not still there?

@Hellos: ????? 
 
The answer is, Goku escaped an instant explosion of the planet because freeza hesitated, but he still detonated the core.

@hitsusatsu11 said:

" @Hellos: ?????  The answer is, Goku escaped an instant explosion of the planet because freeza hesitated, but he still detonated the core. "

You wrote that he destroyed the core, but if he did that it wouldn't be able to explode and destroy the planet, the whole destruction of the core took 5 minutes to even do. :P 
 
@DevilMayhem666 said:

"  That was a filler thus non-canon, so don't bother being it up. The anime is known for putting emphasis on DB's power, one of them being Buu galaxy busting in the anime when in the manga it was only hundreds of planets in years and here is the scan to prove it.
 

 

 

 

 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 

How did The Elder Kai know that Buu was going to bust the universe? What I stated made more sense.
  
And I never said that Cell's statement was a metaphor.     "

Perhaps they just have VERY tiny galaxies? Although 700 planets in years seems somewhat lack luster.

@DevilMayhem666 said:

" @hitsusatsu11: 

Thats your interpretation. 
In the anime buu actually starts to destroy the universe, expanding on the manga statements, 
Prove its a metaphor, its clearly not. 
"I've gathered enough ki not only to destroy the earth but the entire solar system" 
Im sorry this is a direct exact statement, made by someone who is many times more powerful than a confirmed planet buster. 

  That was a filler thus non-canon, so don't bother bringing it up. The anime is known for putting emphasis on DB's power, one of them being Buu galaxy busting in the anime when in the manga it was only hundreds of planets in years and here is the scan to prove it.
 

 

 

 
 
 
 

Why not post the scan that go's after it? 
 
 The next page after yours: 
 

Saiyans in the saiyan saga could destroy many planets in a few years. 
 

How did The Elder Kai know that Buu was going to bust the universe? What I stated made more sense and there is the fact that a similar statement was made earlier in the series.
  

Because he's a ro kaioshin, and oversees the universe. 
Its his business to know.  
Ro kaioshin's words>>>> yours. 
 

I explained this to you already with Buu blowing up earth and the fact both Goku and Vegeta couldn't stop it...

  

Vegeta stopped him once. 
 

Well Vegeta knows he's stronger than a confirmed planet buster and has felt his power before.  I'm not downplaying the fact that he performed the feat I'm just saying it's rather silly that he just knows that he was able to bust the moon and lol at the pic.(don't remember when that happened though) 
  
Also, nearly? I doubt anything in part 2 is as goofy as Goku going up to the moon quickly  with his pole. 

 

Akira Toriyama actually appearing in DB manga is goofyier that nyiobo extend that far. 
Nyovo can extend that far, Toriyama confirmed this, I posted the scan on the DBZ speed thread. 
 

Can you honestly tell me you think that Akira Toriyama would sit down, write the kanji (or katakana or whatever) for "destroy the entire solar system" and have cell just be joking about it? 
Why have an exact statement then? Why not say I have enough ki to destroy everyone, or everything? 

 You already asked me a similar question like this on page 9...

Right and you have no worthwhile answer, except saying you don't believe whats said by cell. 
 

So I guess Gohan didn't get that  zenkai.      

Yes your right, sorry it was Cell who got the zenkai after the senzu. 
 

Mind you, that  some of those characters didn't even know how to hide their power, so it was out in the open. And the sixth example  was not character on character.

  

Irrelevent 
 

 
I didn't say he was lying. But he did commented on how powerful it was in a hyperbolic fashion.  

And you'd be wrong 
 

Well, no it didn't make contact with the earth enough to destroy it. 
Like with vegeta's final flash. 
If a beam just slightly touches the planets surface, why would the planet explode? I don't know of any physics, DBU or RL that suggests it would. 

If it was a solar system buster it sure would have. If it's full power can destory a solar system than it would have destoryed a planet with only a little bit of it's power. And it was also calculated  at another site. 
 

Prove it. 
The blast did not contact the earth enough to destroy it. 

Minus 17, so not all the other androids. Just 16 and 18. So, half of the androids. 
Overconfidence may mean he thought he was stronger than anyone else (there true power being an unknown), but it in no way suggests that he would not know his own max destructive output. 

1) You're forgetting about 19 and 20/Gero who both ran off when they realized they were outmatched as well.  So that's a majority of the androids.  So that means 17 thought no one was strong enough to fight him most likely out of overconfidence      2) Oh and again The Cell Games was meant to test Cell's strength. Meaning that he was curious to see what he could do with his new find power. "

1) Absolutely irrelevant to SPC.  Gero found that the Z senshi exceeded his calculations, the energy required to destroy a solar system is a constant. 
2) And the culmination of that was SPC did find out how strong he got, enough to solar system bust. 
 
@DevilMayhem666 said:

" @hitsusatsu11 said:

 

But its a mute point, Cell gave a specific description of what he can destroy. It would serve no purpose to have Cell say this if it were not true. 

I already gave a possible purpose on page 9. Have you forgotten?

It wasn't worth remembering. 
 

 Mr. Satan says that he is the greatest martial artist in the world and said that he defeated Cell. 
  
I guess it must be true. 
 

If you can't tell the difference between what Mr. Sata says and SPC says, then you really shouldn't be debating. 
SPC is many times stronger that a planetbuster, how much stronger? We have an answer. 
 

 For most other fictions besides DBZ this wouldn't even be debatable.  If we saw superman lift 1 billion tons, then fly to the sun and increase strength, then have him specifically say he can lift 10 billion tons, we wouldn't doubt it for a second.  "

1 billion ton and 10 billion ton diffence isn't nearly as massive as the diffence between a planet buster and a solar system buster...  "

But the difference between saiyan saga vegeta and SPC is greater than regular and sun dipped supes. 
Recall how Son Gohan's ki shot up from around 10 iirc to around 1000 because of anger, instantly. 
Insane power jumps are common in dbz. 
 

Perhaps they just have VERY tiny galaxies? Although 700 planets in years seems somewhat lack luster.

"

Correct translation say's "many planets"  
 

You wrote that he destroyed the core, but if he did that it wouldn't be able to explode and destroy the planet, the whole destruction of the core took 5 minutes to even do. :P 
 

Detonated the core. 

@DevilMayhem666 said:

"

@hitsusatsu11: 

Why not post the scan that go's after it? 
 
 The next page after yours: 

  
Saiyans in the saiyan saga could destroy many planets in a few years. 

You realize that he could have meant  the saiyans that were around at that time (Gohan,Goku, and himself), right ?  And I thought  Saiyans were in the business of selling planets.

 

No he couldn't have. He was talking about the saiyan race, obviously. Kaioshin then responds saying each kaio could beat Freeza in on blow, because Freeza was>>> the saiyans, not over buu saga Goku and Vegeta. 
 
Nice try though. 
 

Because he's a ro kaioshin, and oversees the universe. 
Its his business to know.  
Ro kaioshin's words>>>> yours.     

I said how did he know that would be Buu's next action.  That is most likely not what he meant and the only evidence you can come up with is a filler. Again, statements  like that have been made before, do not take them literally.  Really, stop putting so much emphasis on it.

What are you talking about? Kaioshin said buu was going to destroy the universe. 
In filler we see him begining to do so. 
Toriyama himself says the anime and manga are the same continuity, I will post proof of this when I get on my other computer. 
 

Vegeta stopped him once. 

But couldn't the second time, even with Goku's help, and it only destoryed earth. And when Goku got to the Kai's planet he believed that only earth and the others were gone not the solar system.

Vegeta said "if you want to blow up the earth thats your business, but fight us first." When I have time I will post this scan as well. 
And why couldn't he stop him the second time if he did the first? 
 

Right and you have no worthwhile answer, except saying you don't believe whats said by cell. 

It wasn't worth remembering.

 Why? Because you say so? The writer even had Cell say he couldn't die while he was dying.
  

Yes I say so, and you say the opposite. Both are just are interpretations, but mine is based on the statement in the manga, yours is not. 
 

If you can't tell the difference between what Mr. Sata says and SPC says, then you really shouldn't be debating. 

Yey, I just pointed out the hole in your logic.  
 

Mr Satan was seen as lying and doesnt believe it himself. He knows who beat cell.  
Cells claim is different and frankly your reaching pretty hard now with the comparison. 
 

Irrelevent  

How? You said that  the difference was that character B's true power is an unknown to character A     
 
Not true since character B's true power could not be hidden while character A could sense it.  

Not true, character B can hide and suppress his true power.   
 

But the difference between saiyan saga vegeta and SPC is greater than regular and sun dipped supes. 
Recall how Son Gohan's ki shot up from around 10 iirc to around 1000 because of anger, instantly. 
Insane power jumps are common in dbz. 

Gohan had hidden power. Same can't be said for Cell otherwise his power would have increased when he got angry.  

Because he's a saiyan, or rather a hybrid.  
Saiyans have the potential for infinite power, I will post that scan when I get on my other computer rest assured, and Cell has saiyan cells. 
 

1) Absolutely irrelevant to SPC.  Gero found that the Z senshi exceeded his calculations, the energy required to destroy a solar system is a constant. 
2) And the culmination of that was SPC did find out how strong he got, enough to solar system bust. 

1) You said half of the andriods and I just refuted it.
2)And  how did  he find out that had gotten powerful enough to bust a solar system? Mind you that Cell also believed that he was stronger than Gohan.

1) Half of the androids as in the ones we were discussing, 16, 17, 18 and Cell. We weren't really talking about 19, 20 or 8 ect. 
2) Why do cling to the same argument that I have proved wrong? Gohan's strength is an unknown, Gohan's power can rise (even a 1000 times over in a second) cell has no way of knowing if gohan will rise up and surpass him right then and there. The energy required to destroy a solar system is not an unknown. Just like Roshi, and Vegeta knew their max destructive outputs, SPC knew his. Prove this wrong or it is a concession.  
 

And you'd be wrong 

When somebody says "you're hugging so tight, it feels like you're going to crush me" it doesn't nessicarily mean it's true. Plus much stronger power ups such as ssj2 Gohan's didn't do anything to the earth.   

Get the person who's huggin you to let go so you can get back on topic and stop with the meaningless babble. 
 

Prove it. 
The blast did not contact the earth enough to destroy it. 

Maybe because it's just not a solar system buster? Solar System>Earth (by many times) and I'll try to find the link to the cals. 

Maybe prove it? 
If the concentrated blast doesn't make enough contact, it doesn't matter how much energy it has, its not destroying the earth. This is directly seen with vegeta's final flash. 
Even more so since its a show with no set in stone physical laws. 
 

Yes your right, sorry it was Cell who got the zenkai after the senzu. 

You need to recover from a critical injury to get a zenkai and a senzu only rejevanates strength.  It's not a critical injury if you could heal from it all on your own. Cell most likely gotten his power up from Goku (said that Goku left him many "presents").
 

Cell received a zenkai after eating the senzu, pre SPC.  
What your referring to is when he became even more perfect (SPC) and acquired goku's shunkan ido (IT)
 
 

 

Akira Toriyama actually appearing in DB manga is goofyier that nyiobo extend that far. 
Nyovo can extend that far, Toriyama confirmed this, I posted the scan on the DBZ speed thread. 

I said quicky. 
 
So I guess Nyiobo is near light speed and that there is air on the moon,huh?  
 
Sounds like toonforce to me and where did that 4th wall joke happen?

Nyiobo is massively hypersonic, this is directly seen then confirmed by Toriyama. If you can't even accept this then the joke is not in DB but in your debating. 
4th wall joke happened in the buu saga when the kids were learning fusion. 
 
 

Correct translation say's "many planets"

Can you post a source to this, please? "

I believe in the Tankoubon    it says hundreds of planets, in the Kanzenban it says many, but I will double check when I get the time.  
"He turned many planets into planets of death" I believe is used as well in certain scans, and I think thats how its translated into the JP anime. 

@DevilMayhem666 said:

That's not what it said in the scan you gave me. 
 *Elder Kai offers Goku he's life so he could return to earth(previous page)
*Supreme Kai and Kibito says he can't

*Elder Kai says "then the universe will be destoryed"   
 
You're just putting words in the Elder Kai's mouth.  Plus that was Buuhan when he fought Vegito.

 

It was gotenks buu vs gohan 
The collapsing of the universe was buhan
 
Rokaioshin says, then the universe will be destroyed im sure buu will come here also  
This suggests to me buu was going to destroy the universe quickly, then go right to the holy realm 
 

I think I know what interview you're talking about.  
 
Is it the one where he's asked

how would

he place the anime? That was an opinionated question. I had an argument like this before.
 
If you're talking about that one, fillers are not apart of the original  Dragon Ball continuity. The only material in the anime that is tied to manga  continuity is the animated material of the manga. You  don't really think the  Garlic Jr. saga  is canon do you?

I have an interview, and a jump scan. 
Ill post em when i get on my other computer I haven't been there in a while. 
 

Yes I say so, and you say the opposite. Both are just are interpretations, but mine is based on the statement in the manga, yours is not. 

And my interpretions is based off of Cell's character. A character who lies to himself.

 \

So he picks an arbitrary object (solar system) and pretends he can destroy it? 
I don't buy that. 
 

Not true, character B can hide and suppress his true power.   

Vegeta didn't know how to hide his power at first, he learn it from the Z fighters after he fought them, like he learn how to sense ki. Mr. Popo also had to teach this concept to Goku,iirc. 
 

But even without sensing ki, that vegeta still knew his rough max destructive output. 
And I was referring to android saga vegeta 
 

 
 
And again the sixth example  was not character on character, it was that King Kai and Goku believed that Freeza's attack outputted enough power to destory Namek in one shot. Vegeta(SS arc.) and Goku(piccolo sr arc) was going all out in their battles so their true power should have been known to their opponents but they still believed that their attacks would kill them.

Freeza's would have but he hesitated. 
What im saying is in dbz characters often rise up in power to meet the threat, SPC doesn't know if gohan will do this and surpass him or not. Different than knowing if he himself can destroy a certain object. 
 

1) Half of the androids as in the ones we were discussing, 16, 17, 18 and Cell. We weren't really talking about 19, 20 or 8 ect. 
2) Why do cling to the same argument that I have proved wrong? Gohan's strength is an unknown, Gohan's power can rise (even a 1000 times over in a second) cell has no way of knowing if gohan will rise up and surpass him right then and there. The energy required to destroy a solar system is not an unknown. Just like Roshi, and Vegeta knew their max destructive outputs, SPC knew his. Prove this wrong or it is a concession.      

1)When I said all of the androids I meant all the androids in Cell saga and it doesn't really matter though.

2) Above and I already refuted the Vegeta part.

 

1) Ok fair enough 
 
2) Vegeta in the android saga vs 18, after he can sense ki 
 

So you're saying Gohan wasn't powered up?
 
Here's him rising his power up. 
 

  

 

 
 
 
 

  
 
 
 
 
Now to say that Gohan was holding back his power would be completely stupid of him because he would be making the same mistake he made eariler. 

 

He was powered up, but power increases are common. Ppl surpass their max power continually, even in the actual battle.  
 

Because he's a saiyan, or rather a hybrid.  
Saiyans have the potential for infinite power, I will post that scan when I get on my other computer rest assured, and Cell has saiyan cells.

1  Yet this never happens to Cell when he gets angry, so that argument is moot. 
  

Cell received a zenkai after eating the senzu, pre SPC.  
What your referring to is when he became even more perfect (SPC) and acquired goku's shunkan ido (IT)

2 Cell wasn't in danger of death or anything like that, brah. 

Nyiobo is massively hypersonic, this is directly seen then confirmed by Toriyama. If you can't even accept this then the joke is not in DB but in your debating. 
4th wall joke happened in the buu saga when the kids were learning fusion. 
    

1 When everyone gets angry their power jumps lol, its the main thing that in DBZ. 
2 Saiyans get a boost whenever they fight technically, and ya meng when he took the senzu he was hurtin. 
 

 
I said near light speed. Hypersonic is a term that is for any speed superior to sound before arriving to relativistic and you're ignoring the "air on the moon" bit, which makes that scene toon force power. AT confirmed the distance but I didn't see anything about the speed(unless I missed it). The trip to Kami's on the pole took way longer, Yajirobe and Korin could exchange words before Goku got there.     
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

  
 
 
 
 
Goku even commented that it was far, so Nyiobo really wasn't moving as fast as did with the moon. The pole got to the moon really fast out of toonforce just like how Goku,Rabbit and co was able to survive in space.   

I'd say yes nyoibo could be relativistic. 
the bit about going to karins tower is not applicable, since its kinda a magic place. Like its said that if your not using your own power it's length is endless, but then again bulma went there. 
Either way the feat puts nyibo at massively hypersonic or relativistic speeds, im not about to discount feats. 
And Monster rabbit is magic man, i'd think its not far fetched for him to pull something to allow breathing. 
 

Maybe prove it?  

If the concentrated blast doesn't make enough contact, it doesn't matter how much energy it has, its not destroying the earth. This is directly seen with vegeta's final flash. 
Even more so since its a show with no set in stone physical laws.     

1  The Search Function at Narutofan isn't working right at this moment so I'll just ask the person who made the cals to give me a link. Most of Vegeta's attack was send out into space. Vegeta at that time was much weaker than Cell at time and there was no statements saying it was a solar system buster.
 
Well posters do use physical laws to quantify  feats in fiction. Like determineing Dragon Ball speed. 
   

Mr Satan was seen as lying and doesnt believe it himself. He knows who beat cell.  
Cells claim is different and frankly your reaching pretty hard now with the comparison. 

2 I'll admit that was a pretty bad example. 
 

Get the person who's huggin you to let go so you can get back on topic and stop with the meaningless babble. 

 3 Just giving an example and much more powerful power ups still didn't destory the planet including SPC powering up his attack and all it did was shake a city.

1 Ic, no wonder you won't consider SPC can solar system bust. Thats like an OBD law. 
2 Ahh don't worry about it. 
2 Could be, but I think its more for plot that the earth wasn't destroyed. 
 

    

Vegeta said "if you want to blow up the earth thats your business, but fight us first." When I have time I will post this scan as well. 
And  why couldn't he stop him the second time if he did the first?   

 

 And Buu did not fight them first, he just tried to blow it up again with a more powerful attack.

 

  

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
Goku even said they wouldn't be able stop the second one. It was too powerful/huge for them and it was just a muti planet buster at best. If you can't grasp that then well I can't help you. EDIT: I realized we've been at this for nearly a week so I'll take my leave from this arguement and I realized this topic is about Perfect Cell not Super Perfect Cell...

"

The second attack could have been more powerful in magnitude, far above a weaker one that was still capable of destroying a planet. 
You can't say its a multiplanet buster any more than you can say its a solar or galaxy buster. 
It only destroyed the earth, even though we know its more powerful than attacks which could also destroy the earth. 
As I said, size of explosion =/ magnitude of force, I have seen Odin KO the SS with a blast that was the size of a minivan, was that attack only car busting? 
 
I just saw your edit, ok we can agree to disagree, ill still get those scans though when I get on my other computer if ya like.  
 
EDIT SCANS: 
 
1 Anime canon? 
http://www.pojo.com/dragonball/interviews/toriyama.shtml  
 


 
2) This is the time I was talking about when I said Vegeta knew he could destroy the earth. 
 

3) Saiyans have infinite potential for power 
 and become stronger after each battle.

4) Androids can calculate power