Nate Grey (X-Man) VS Dracula/The Sacred Ancestor (VHD)

Topic started by FalconC2 on July 16, 2012. Last post by FalconC2 2 years, 2 months ago.
Post by FalconC2 (377 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Scenario 1: Pre-Shaman Nate, and they are both bloodlusted.

Scenario 2: Post-Shaman Nate, and they are both bloodlusted.

They fight here:

Post by ReiKai (3,517 posts) See mini bio Level 10
SANs. Both Times. In a universe filled with super-tech, a race of super-powerful near-immortals, extra-dimensional entities and alien races, the only thing that could ever hurt him was his own Son.
Post by FalconC2 (377 posts) See mini bio Level 9

You sure about that?

Here's an example of Pre-Shaman Nate, and he only becomes more powerful as Shaman.

He has powerful telepathy as well, so Dracula's aura is not likely to work.

Here are many of his feats: Link

Post by ReiKai (3,517 posts) See mini bio Level 10
SANs has, as far as anyone can be concerned, every power ever demonstrated by the Nobility. He does more than some simple aura-crush ability. He also stopped a Planet from crashing into the Earth, which baffled both the Nobility and Valcua, sending it back to its home star system. SANs also has technology that operates on a 4th Dimensional level, which he can access and use at any time. And there is a difference between the Sacred Ancestor's Technology and that which is used by the Nobility.
Post by FalconC2 (377 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Well, Nate can phase through matter, create psychic armor and duke it out with the Hulk, survive in the vacuum of space and shut off a person's powers with his telepathy.

As Shaman, he can teleport himself and others into different universes. He can also enter the planck length, the time in-between moments, to greatly increase his speed or manipulate time along with all his other aforementioned abilities.

Nate's telepathy is powerful enough to contend with Xavier's telepathy (one of the most powerful telepaths in Marvel), even before he becomes Shaman.

Post by ReiKai (3,517 posts) See mini bio Level 10
The Nobility can manipulate space, various forms of energy, plants, insects, animals, weather phenomena, lightning, and many other things. Including high-end TP abilities and illusions. SANs created a space within a Dream Realm inside "D's" consciousness with a door of infinite size, width and thickness. "D" absorbed an infinite amount of Life Energy from that realm to pierce and open the door. To which it had an effect in Physical Reality that made an entire mountain range of hundreds of trillions of tons vanish instantly and show a Road that was constructed by SANs that would lead to the Yuma factory and the placed called Muma where experiments had been performed to create more Nobility, a lab complex greater in size than the Capital, a massive city of colossal proportions.
 
SANs could kill people instantly by just passing over them as a mass of consciousness. It wasn't even ability. It was just a side-effect.
Post by FalconC2 (377 posts) See mini bio Level 9

SANs could kill people instantly by just passing over them as a mass of consciousness. It wasn't even ability. It was just a side-effect.

Xavier can do the same to billions of people, and even attempted to mind-crush Galactus (LINK). It didn't work, but he had some serious cajoles to even try that. Nate is at his level in that area and can even out-match him at some points, even before he's Shaman, so it's not likely that Dracula's aura will have any real effect.

EDIT: What I meant was that Xavier could kill people with his telepathy, and do something similar.

Post by ReiKai (3,517 posts) See mini bio Level 10
No. Xavier can Mind Control billions of people and something he had to consciously focus on. Heck, Thanos pulled a bigger Mindwhammy on Galactus, and Thanos doesn't have the range of TP That Xavier does, just a stronger Mind and Will.
 
And I never said anything about SANs' aura, so where are you pulling that from? And Xavier wasn't moving around as a mass of consciousness, he was using his Astral Body, a projection of his mental self. When SANs moves as a mass of consciousness it appears as a Mass of Black Clouds covering a large area. People, things, etc, Die as a side effect of his presence passing over them because their minds are crushed under the weight of his consciousness. It's not an attack. It's just something that happens.
Post by FalconC2 (377 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@ReiKai said:

No. Xavier can Mind Control billions of people and something he had to consciously focus on. Heck, Thanos pulled a bigger Mindwhammy on Galactus, and Thanos doesn't have the range of TP That Xavier does, just a stronger Mind and Will.

And I never said anything about SANs' aura, so where are you pulling that from? And Xavier wasn't moving around as a mass of consciousness, he was using his Astral Body, a projection of his mental self. When SANs moves as a mass of consciousness it appears as a Mass of Black Clouds covering a large area. People, things, etc, Die as a side effect of his presence passing over them because their minds are crushed under the weight of his consciousness. It's not an attack. It's just something that happens.

It's something that effects the mind, either way, correct? Nate would be able to defend against it then. He can also forcibly give something that is immaterial a physical form through the use of his psionics. He did this with Xavier when he plucked his astral form from the astral plane (LINK), and can even give thoughts a physical form by accident (LINK). If you're saying that Dracula can transform into a mass of black clouds/consciousness, that is.

Xavier can kill people with his telepathy, along with a lot of other things. He can freeze a person's perception of time for starters, or give people strokes and lots of other crazy stuff. He can do more than just control people.

Post by ReiKai (3,517 posts) See mini bio Level 10
That's not something Nate does all the time. What he Did do was pull Xavier's Astral Body from the Astral Plane and into the Physical Plane, just to show he could. That's not what SANs did. He was still in the Physical world but as a mass of Consciousness. He didn't enter the Astral Plane.
 
As far as TP goes, those things are fairly common. Psylocke killed Dark Xavier with a TK bubble in the brain and made him stroke out causing brain death. The Crystal Lifeform in VHD can drive millions of people insane in a milisecond. Killing is easy. Feck a sorceress in the 1st Novel made illusions so terrifying they literally killed people with Fear.
 
As I've already said, SANs has done things that affect multiple realms, such as that mental domain he created in "D's" subconscious. And, as noted, SANs can operate with things on a 4-D level, which means there's really not much Nate can do.
Post by CerberusPrime3k (299 posts) See mini bio Level 8

This be a bit lengthy here are some of Nates Feats

Testament of Power Output / Telekinesis

1. Xavier, and Moira share their finding over Nate. Xavier comments Nate is the strongest psi he has ever encountered, Moira concludes with the computer reading. She states Nate’s psi matches that of the Dark Phoenix. And that if his power left unattended could consume him, and everyone around him.

2. Is dubbed as the only fully functioning Nate Grey in any reality. Part of the reason is due to his genetic donors.In AoA Beast realizes what Sinister was up to. And that was to take control of Jeans powers, by creating a vet grown hybrid using her tissue as a medium in hopes of cultivating a living weapon.

3. Getting a glimpse of what Nate would be at full potential. By skipping several stages of evolutions he was not meant to survive, he becomes a being of raw energy. More or less the same abilities but more of it, much more of it.

4. His energy can be felt throughout the astral plane.

5. Staggers Queen Jean with his powers as Shaman, getting ready to destroy her and her palace.

6. Overloads Blaquesmith's 40th century technology.

7. Initially Blaquesmith thought Nate was Stryfe, Cable's genetic clone, but his sudden burst of power shows that he is far more powerful.

8. Overloads Exodus, and sealed him in a rapidly closing crevasse.

9. Nate’s psionic out lash cripples psi sensitive characters across the globe.

10. Manifesting the Phoenix Rapture from being a descendent of Alpha the First mutant, inheriting AoA Jeans powers.

11. Blasts an Infinity Patrol.

12. Almost kills AoA Mr. Sinister.

13. Pulls Professor Xavier from the astral plane.

14. Shatters Holocaust's armor.

15. Owns the Abomination.

16. Puts Spider-Man in check.

17. Blasts Hyrbid into atoms.

18. Incinerates 13 mutant telepaths across New York City.

19. Taking on the Harvester, who in its own way has become the planet itself states he was created to destroy worlds. And the Harvester agrees that he would lose against X-Man.

20. Unconsciously levels his surroundings.

21. Pushes apart a large body mass of water.

22. Shows his destructive power within the fraction of a second.

23. Destroys Cable's specially-constructed shelter that's was made to withstand an atomic explosion.

24. To Threnody - "My telekinesis just sheared down through a hundred, and thirty feet of dirt, and rock. Smashed four more feet of solid brick, and mortar. And pulverized it all in mid air before your eyes. Lets take a minute to imagine what it could do to you."

25. Foresees himself destroying Earth, blowing out 1/4 of the planet from his energy discharge.

26. With a thought, not only did Nate cause massive landscape damage. But blew open the dimensional barrier separating Earth’s Plane’s, and the Great Beasts Realm.

27. Halts an earthquake and an avalanche.

28. With a simple hand gesture (thumbs down), destroys an entire city in his sleep.

29. According to Queen Jean Nate has the power to destroy a planet (as seen in his vision). Nate was in the processes of wiping out an entire continent (Asia).

30. It's confirmed that Onslaught learned from Nate, how to apply his psionic powers to manipulate the “Astral Plane” into the “Corporeal World.”

31. Can bend the lasers around him, to avoid tripping off the alarms.

32. Creates a hologram of himself.

33. Repels the blast from the explosion of 2 missles.

34. A vary impressive display of TK and TP. Nate fine tunes his TP to track down every viral strain, to pluck it from billions gallons of water.

35. This has to be one of X-Mans most impressive display of power, and personal will. The deadly agent known as “Cold Snap“, could sweep away uncalculated deaths. Yet Nate released it all, in a sealed environment on himself, to avoid its use as a terrorist weapon. Nate officially died, yet lingering in-between Life & Death. He seemingly fights back, and returns at full strength (having previously lost his TK.)

36. Plucks the M'Kran Crystal from Holocaust's armor.

37. Nate produces an EMP, short circuiting all mechanical devices in range.

38. Made a body shield thin enough to screen out Purple Man's pheromones without him knowing.

39. Possesses Norman Osborn's body.

40. Refers to as being near-omnipotent.

Post by FalconC2 (377 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@ReiKai said:

That's not something Nate does all the time. What he Did do was pull Xavier's Astral Body from the Astral Plane and into the Physical Plane, just to show he could. That's not what SANs did. He was still in the Physical world but as a mass of Consciousness. He didn't enter the Astral Plane.

As far as TP goes, those things are fairly common. Psylocke killed Dark Xavier with a TK bubble in the brain and made him stroke out causing brain death. The Crystal Lifeform in VHD can drive millions of people insane in a milisecond. Killing is easy. Feck a sorceress in the 1st Novel made illusions so terrifying they literally killed people with Fear. As I've already said, SANs has done things that affect multiple realms, such as that mental domain he created in "D's" subconscious. And, as noted, SANs can operate with things on a 4-D level, which means there's really not much Nate can do.

Either way, Dracula's a mass of consciousness, and Nate has given thoughts form before. He's given Maddie's thoughts form in the other example I showed you and that wasn't in the astral realm. He also brought people back to life, and created new bodies for them with his power. He probably could force Dracula into a physical form.

That 4-D stuff doesn't really tell me much. Is his body or consciousness in another dimension or universe, is that what you mean? If so, Nate can easily reach him. After all, he can teleport into other universes and connect another person's mind to their alternate selves (LINK 1) (LINK 2).

That millions of minds thing doesn't sound nearly as impressive as Xavier's feat of weaponizing the billions of Skrull thoughts and feelings in his attempt to psychically assault Galactus.

Post by ReiKai (3,517 posts) See mini bio Level 10
He is the Sacred Ancestor. SANs for short. Marvel already has a Dracula. So let's not call him Drac.
 
Now, SANs is effectively a god in the VHD-verse and described as "Darkness Incarnate". As far as the series is concerned, he is the oldest living being in the known universe. He has raised a town above ground and created it atop a hill, instantly dispelling toxic gases that exuded from the ground and cured its denizens of their illnesses all at once. He can resurrect even dead Nobility if he so desires and even Choose a Time and Place that they will be resurrected.
 
General Gaskell learned a way to resurrect himself should he die. Even turning to dust wouldn't mean death forever. However, Gaskell couldn't predict When he would revive. It could be the day after he dies or at the end of time. He had no way of knowing. SANs, however, can Choose these conditions at will. Gaskell also learned a spell to Erase people from existence and used it to wipe out armies. This from texts originally owned by  SANs.
 
And no, 4D would mean Nate has no way of reaching him. Nate, like much of the Marvels heroes and beings, operate on a 3-Dimensional level. Shifting universes does not change this. Basically he can operate on a higher plane of existence. Consider, if you will, how 5D Imps in DCU act in the 3Dimensional universe. That is not to say SANs is omnipotent in this venture, however the technology he developed and can use at will exists within and a part of the 4th DImension, which goes beyond the laws of the 3dimensional universe.
 
That is, in part, why there is a difference between the Technology of the Sacred Ancestor and that of the Nobility. The Nobility has mastered Space (ie Manipulation and control of Space and dimensions). They have learned all secrets of the universe. They can create Void Areas where Infinity is compact into a Finite space, creating a Void where anything that enters it ceases to exist. Other things, such as the Big Bang Generator, was an invention designed by SANs using Nobility-level technology. It does as its name implies; generates the force equivalent of the Big Bang. It could also be used to manipulate Time and Space.
 
One of the most amusing moments in VHD was an AI that controlled one of the Nobility's spaceports gaining Self Awareness and feelings of Love and Longing, which came about simply by Seeing the Sacred Ancestor. As a result the Nobility had to abandon the place because the system fell in love with SANs because of his otherworldly presence. When "D" visited the spaceport in "Pale Fallen Angel", the AI first believed that SANs had returned to see her, only to then say that "D" is very much like "Him", however 'His' darkness was much, much greater.
 
Most tend not to challenge SANs. That's not to say some Nobility hasn't waged battle against him. As noted before, SANs has never been injured. Except by "D". And given the vast technology at their disposal, with weapons capable of destroying planets, robots the size of mountains, gravity cannons, continent-leveling energy devices, and so on and so forth. The fact that a race of beings with technology that bends the laws of the universe and would make even Doctor Doom go "Daaaaaaaamn!" could not be used to inflict injury upon the Sacred Ancestor, does say a lot about him.
 
There is a short story, involving SANs and "D". Basically, it's the final battle. And I mean THE Final Battle. It's Armageddon. A literal realm where SANs and "D" fight. Neither can kill the other. It's an endless stalemate and they continue to duke it out for all eternity.
Post by FalconC2 (377 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Any actual feats for this 4-D dimension stuff? If you're going to compare it to the 5-D imps from DC, it better have some dang good ones. Otherwise, it's just some other plane of existence like the astral realm. I would also like the specifics on this instance that Dracula stopped another planet from hitting the earth. How did he do that exactly? Was it telekinesis, some sort of spell, or did he use some sort of technology? If you could quote the text, for instance. It's a rather vague feat, at the moment.

I'm with Nate on this. The only problem I foresee is that spell that erases people. Nate could probably stop the sacred ancestor from using that spell with his telepathy like he stopped Magneto from using his powers (Link) or Post-Shaman Nate could avoid it by entering the planck length. Nate also has precognition/clairvoyance as well, and Post-Shaman Nate stated that he has three hundred different variations of it (Link 1) (Link 2) (Link 3) (Link 4). It would give Nate a good idea of what the sacred ancestor is capable of. That also shows Nate entering the planck length which seems to stop time, or something similar, and his fight with Ares in it seems to have altered history. It's described as stepping outside of time. Nate could do that, and then go to town on Dracula with his vast array of psionic abilities.

Post by ReiKai (3,517 posts) See mini bio Level 10
I believe you misunderstood what I was referring to. Let me explain. I was using 5D imps as an example. They can do what they do because they are from a higher dimensional plane. And no, the Astral plane is not akin to the 4th dimension. It's nothing like that.
 
3d > 2d > 1D
4D > 3D > 2D > 1D
5d > 4D > 3D 

and so on and so forth. 
 
Again, SANs is not a 4th-dimensional deity that can spank the universe. His Technology operates on a 4th-Dimensional level though. That would mean that, say, Adamantium is indestructible by 3-Dimensional laws could be just as easily broken by anything from a 4th-Dimensional axis. The laws that govern the 4th-Dimension would be vastly different from that which is known for the 3rd-Dimension. The Nobility have all but mastered every secret in the universe and have event bent the laws of physics with their science and magic. They can create pocket-spaces of infinite size or sealed dimensions of looped space with no escape.
 
In "Tyrant's Stars", Valcua who is known as the Ultimate Noble, had been given some of SAN's technology by SANs himself. When learning of the fate of their species and what SANs planned to do, Valcua decided to annihilate everything and went to war on the Nobility. Using SANs' tech he ripped a planet from another system and cast it at the Earth. Because Valcua was using SANs' tech, the Nobility could not detect it until long after it had entered their solar system, despite the fact that should not have been possible. Especially given that they created means of predicting the future based on their science and even predicted the Minute the Human race would nearly destroy itself in nuclear war, centuries before it even happened.
 
When the planet was within 5million miles of striking the Earth, SANs decided to directly intervene. Basically, he just said "That's enough of that", waved his hand, and immediately the planet reversed direction and flew out of our solar system. Although Valcua had access to some of SANs' tech, it's useless against the Master of that technology. 
 
If you want the exact quote, then this is all it is.

VHD Vol.16 "Tyrant's Stars" Page 76-77

"Ah, what a time it was! It was the anniversary of an ancient holiday. We'd already tapped the power of magma and the ley lines to give Valcua a black eye, but we never imagined he'd pay us back with a shooting star."
His missiles were small, metallic meteors summoned by remote control from an asteroid belt two hundred million miles from Earth. Moving at fifteen miles per second when they hit the atmosphere, the five hundred meteorites were greeted with fire from space cannons, but one of them managed to make it through the defensive net and strike the center of the Frontier. For three hundred miles in all directions the ground rose up to the heavens, mountains vanished and seas boiled away. The dead numbered thirty million.
This incident caused such fervor among the Nobility that an inquest was held to find out why the meteorite hadn't been detected beforehand. The conclusion they reached was a simple one. Composed largely of darkness and radiation, outer space was something the Nobility loved like it was their own parent. It had never occurred to them that the majestic void might betray them, so they hadn't seen any reason to keep an eye on the heavens. Who would dare to probe the secrets of their beloved parents' heart?
However, they began to scrutinize space much more closely, and just five days later, they discovered a meteor six thousand miles in diameter--actually, a planet--flying toward the Earth. Based on its shape and speed, they discovered it was one of the planetoids in Alpha Centauri, and there was no way to stop it on such short notice. Not only had the Ultimate Noble managed to wrest a celestial body from its orbit in another solar system, he was also able to use it in a plan to wipe out another planet.
The black arms of despair embraced the three Nobles.
That's when it happened.
"The Sacred Ancestor stepped forward. It was unclear how the planetoid had evaded the immutable laws of the universe to travel to within five million miles of the Earth, but it suddenly changed direction and flew off into the depths of space. In a sense, we were still numb from having to  accept our own imminent extinction, but then the Sacred Ancestor commanded us to take Lawrence Valcua alive."

It doesn't tell you how SANs did it, only that he did it and the Nobility can't explain it. Basically, it's beyond them.
 
Now, as for trying to stop SANs from using his abilities...no. You're talking about a 10thousand+ year old being regarded as a deity, whose presence can be felt globally, who can effect multiple realms at once (ie, creating a domain inside "D's" subconscious that affected Physical Reality), who (like "D") can access the very deepest layers of consciousness, the deepest of which scant few ever know to even exist called the Mystic Layer. Basically, in a Mental battle, there's no winning over SANs.
Post by FalconC2 (377 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Well, then it's hard to quantify if we don't how the sacred ancestor did it. For instance, Broly from the DBZ movies was said to have destroyed a galaxy but we never actually see him do it or know how he did. It would be impossible to use that as a feat.

However, I'll assume that the sacred ancestor can exert such force somehow to avoid any arguments. That, and to make this match more interesting. After all, Nate can stop planetoids as well as evidenced by his moon feat. He only becomes more powerful Post-Shaman and is heavily implied to be capable of destroying the entire planet. A six-thousand mile diameter, that would make the planetoid the sacred ancestor stopped smaller than the earth but significantly bigger than the moon. To give you a sense of scale, earth has a diameter of around 7,926 miles in comparison to its six-thousand mile diameter.

As for the 4-D technology, it sounds impressive but we have to go by feats here. We can't assume 4-D equals an auto-victory, that would be a fallacy. If for instance a laser works by 3-dimensional laws and is powerful enough to destroy a star, over a laser that work by 4-dimensional laws and can only destroy a country or a continent, it would be best to go with the weapon with the superior feats (the laser that can destroy stars). It would be the logical thing to do.

Now, as for trying to stop SANs from using his abilities...no. You're talking about a 10thousand+ year old being regarded as a deity, whose presence can be felt globally, who can effect multiple realms at once (ie, creating a domain inside "D's" subconscious that affected Physical Reality), who (like "D") can access the very deepest layers of consciousness, the deepest of which scant few ever know to even exist called the Mystic Layer. Basically, in a Mental battle, there's no winning over SANs.

You're underestimating Nate's own mental prowess, he has been shown to affect minds in other realities/universes and can outright shut a person's mind down with telepathy or seal their abilities, and he can contend with Xavier (the same Xavier that can influence and affect billions of minds) in that area--even out matching him. Nate's psionic out-lash can also be felt across the world and even in the astral plane, crippling powerful psychics like Jean Grey and Charles Xavier; as evidenced by the the feats provided by CerberusPrime3K. That was before Shaman as well, and Nate grows even more powerful Post-Shaman. Nate's best feat for range, was when he fixed a person's broken psyche by connecting their mind to their alternate selves in other realities/universes. Here are some links for that feat: (Link 1) (Link 2) (Link 3) (Link 4) (Link 5) (Link 6) (Link 7)

Post by ReiKai (3,517 posts) See mini bio Level 10
Valcua kept people a million people alive via tubes and chemicals extending from the 4th-Dimension so no one else could access it, and it kept the minds of his victims clear, never allowing for madness, making them feel their despair clearly with a clear mind and unable to die.
 

Well, then it's hard to quantify if we don't how the sacred ancestor did it. For instance, Broly from the DBZ movies was said to have destroyed a galaxy but we never actually see him do it or know how he did. It would be impossible to use that as a feat.

However we do and we know he did it and the means by which he could it was only via a Ki blast of enormous power. As for how SANs sent the planet back, you can say it was because of his 4D tech or his own power. Incidentally, there's no difference between the two. Consider one of Clarke's three laws; "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". That's basically what the Nobility's science was and SANs' exceeds that by venturing into the 4th-Dimension.
 

After all, Nate can stop planetoids as well as evidenced by his moon feat. He only becomes more powerful Post-Shaman and is heavily implied to be capable of destroying the entire planet. A six-thousand mile diameter, that would make the planetoid the sacred ancestor stopped smaller than the earth but significantly bigger than the moon. To give you a sense of scale, earth has a diameter of around 7,926 miles in comparison to its six-thousand mile diameter.

Well, Nate didn't so much "stop" the planetoid as break it to pieces which resulted in significant damage across the globe due to thousands of meteorite impacts.
 

As for the 4-D technology, it sounds impressive but we have to go by feats here. We can't assume 4-D equals an auto-victory, that would be a fallacy. If for instance a laser works by 3-dimensional laws and is powerful enough to destroy a star, over a laser that work by 4-dimensional laws and can only destroy a country or a continent, it would be best to go with the weapon with the superior feats (the laser that can destroy stars). It would be the logical thing to do.

However that's the thing. a "Country Buster" in the 4th-Dimension could be a galaxy-wiping event in the 3rd-Dimension. And the context of a Laser may not even apply to 4th-dimensional physics. Pi can equal a tasty snack as far as the 4th-Dimension is concerned and it can be Correct.
 
In any event there's no answer. As far as the VHD-verse has been concerned, nothing can hurt him save "D". And SANs has only scarcely made an appearance in the series itself. Most of what anyone has on him is stories and lore as told by the Nobility or Left Hand. Far as I can remember no one has ever directly called him "Dracula". Everyone, including Humans and the Nobility, have all ever referred to SANs as the Sacred Ancestor, The Great One or 'Him'. He is never referred to by name.
Post by FalconC2 (377 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Well, Nate didn't so much "stop" the planetoid as break it to pieces which resulted in significant damage across the globe due to thousands of meteorite impacts.

Semantics.

Either way, Nate was able to exert the amount of power necessary to meet it head-on and shatter it. That wasn't even Nate at his strongest, either. That was Pre-Shaman Nate I believe.

However we do and we know he did it and the means by which he could it was only via a Ki blast of enormous power. As for how SANs sent the planet back, you can say it was because of his 4D tech or his own power. Incidentally, there's no difference between the two. Consider one of Clarke's three laws; "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". That's basically what the Nobility's science was and SANs' exceeds that by venturing into the 4th-Dimension.

Yeah, I seriously doubt Broly is that powerful; going from visible and quantifiable feats he's a powerful planet-buster but that's it. Unless you want to suggest that Broly is a Skyfather-level being, which is beyond silly.

The sacred ancestor's planetoid stopping feat is still something that's almost impossible to use because the specifics behind it are never revealed. Other than speculations on how it went down and happened, it could be anything. A spell, telekinesis, etc. We don't even know if the sacred ancestor could even use it in a fight, has he by the way? However, I'm fine with you using it because of how powerful Nate himself is. It would make for a better match.

However that's the thing. a "Country Buster" in the 4th-Dimension could be a galaxy-wiping event in the 3rd-Dimension. And the context of a Laser may not even apply to 4th-dimensional physics. Pi can equal a tasty snack as far as the 4th-Dimension is concerned and it can be Correct.

How can we know that though? We need actual feats, not wild guesses, before we go around saying that it's that powerful. You have to take it at face value. If it destroys a country, then it's a country-buster and it's as simple as that.

As far as the VHD-verse has been concerned, nothing can hurt him save "D". And SANs has only scarcely made an appearance in the series itself. Most of what anyone has on him is stories and lore as told by the Nobility or Left Hand. Far as I can remember no one has ever directly called him "Dracula". Everyone, including Humans and the Nobility, have all ever referred to SANs as the Sacred Ancestor, The Great One or 'Him'. He is never referred to by name.

You say nothing can hurt the sacred ancestor sort of D, but we have to go by actual displays of power over in-story claims if we want an accurate idea on who wins this. Does the sacred ancestor have an actual defense against all of Nate's numerous abilities?

You sure they never referred to the sacred ancestor as Dracula? I'm pretty sure that's it's generally accepted that he is Dracula, or something.

Valcua kept people a million people alive via tubes and chemicals extending from the 4th-Dimension so no one else could access it, and it kept the minds of his victims clear, never allowing for madness, making them feel their despair clearly with a clear mind and unable to die.

That's interesting, but how does that help the sacred ancestor in this match? As I've said before unless the 4th-dimension has feats of keeping individuals like Nate (people who can teleport into other universes and dimensions) out then I don't see how Nate can't reach it.

However, I haven't showed you Nate's feat of teleporting into other realities/universes yet. Here it is: (Link) (Link) (Link)

And here, Nate teleports someone else into another reality: (Link) (Link)

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