Luke Skywalker vs Goku

Topic started by peruano99A on June 17, 2012. Last post by Kelleth 2 years, 1 month ago.
Post by FalconC2 (377 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@ReiKai said:

The evidence is already clearly there. Even early on, their Combat/Reaction times are greater than their Travel Speed. Proof was already shown. Piccolo moonbusting. Took about 4sec for his attack to reach the moon and destroy it. It would take Light just under 4sec to go from the Earth to the Moon. That makes the attack shy of lightspeed. And that was when Piccolo was Weighted with a PL over 300. A stronger Piccolo was having his attacks evaded by Nappa. Make of that what you will. I've seen Luke feats and all of his major abilities require Time and Focus to perform. Something that he doesn't have here. And I can prove to you, that someone even Weaker than Goku in terms of destructive ability and speed, can take down Luke.

No, it would take light around 1.28416 seconds (the average distance between earth and the moon is 238,855 miles [LINK], divide that by the speed of light [186,282.4 miles/sec or 186,000 miles/sec] and that's what you get) to reach the moon, or about 1.3 seconds. Also, it wasn't given an official time-frame. If you're taking this from the anime, then it took around seven-to-eight seconds. In the manga, I have no idea.

Let's see here:

The beam fires at around 0:02-to-0:03 and the moon blows up at around 0:10, I am assuming that's when it hit.

238,855 miles / 7 sec = 34,122 miles/sec

238,855 miles / 8 sec = 29,856 miles/sec

It's still not light-speed, even if you use the anime. Relativistic, yes, but as I said before it has no official time frame (as far as I know) so that's still just a speculation. Also, ki blasts have inconsistent speeds. Sometimes they're fast, and other times Yamcha can dodge them. We would have to calculate the speed of those blasts you're talking about that Nappa evaded to accurately determine his speed.

That's just for the beam speeds, not for the character speeds which seem to be less impressive. Anyway, I'm not that good at math so take that all with a grain of salt.

Post by ReiKai (3,513 posts) See mini bio Level 10
Your timing is off. The beam hit the Moon before it exploded. The Glowing of the Moon is a result of the attack. And that delayed effect is in the Anime, which is non-canon. It happens faster in a few short panels in the Manga. And with DBZ Kai fixing the "Filler" issue and bringing it closer to the Manga, the timing of roughly 4sec is not Speculation, but a calculated estimation based on the Time of the attack and the time in which it struck the Moon.
 
And no, we would not have to calculate each attack on Nappa. Because it's asinine. You'd then spout some nonsense about needing to calc every attack ever in the history of the series. It's not possible. And there's no point in doing so since most of the blasts are short-range and or exceed the range of view as given to the Reader/Viewer, nvm that as the Reader/Viewer you are witnessing it at the same pace as the Z-fighters themselves, otherwise you'd be watching a 3min episode and wondering what the hell just happened.
 
Fact is, we saw and attack that exceeded the speed necessary to reach escape velocity and, not only that, but strike the moon in a very limited timeframe. Attempting to claim that every subsequent blast after that is Slower, against an actual opponent that's more dangerous than previously encountered, is simply absurd. While in some cases the Z-fighters can control the speed of their own attacks, making them slower against a Faster, more powerful opponent, would just be a waste of time and energy.
 
What this means is Nappa saw the attack coming, evaded and followed up by hammering Piccolo. Note that Nappa doesn't dodge every attack as in several cases he is Distracted by facing someone else. For example, when Tien used a one-handed Kikoho against nappa while Nappa was busy focusing on Krillin and Piccolo. The attack hit because he did not register the attack in time enough to avoid it. Yet he was still fast enough to Guard himself and minimized the damage.
 
It has been abundantly evident to everyone that Goku royally WTFstomps Luke. The Only way Luke could ever win against these types of characters is if the just Stood there and Let themselves get mindraped by him. And you can be sure that's never going to happen.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@FalconC2 said:

@ReiKai said:

The evidence is already clearly there. Even early on, their Combat/Reaction times are greater than their Travel Speed. Proof was already shown. Piccolo moonbusting. Took about 4sec for his attack to reach the moon and destroy it. It would take Light just under 4sec to go from the Earth to the Moon. That makes the attack shy of lightspeed. And that was when Piccolo was Weighted with a PL over 300. A stronger Piccolo was having his attacks evaded by Nappa. Make of that what you will. I've seen Luke feats and all of his major abilities require Time and Focus to perform. Something that he doesn't have here. And I can prove to you, that someone even Weaker than Goku in terms of destructive ability and speed, can take down Luke.

No, it would take light around 1.28416 seconds (the average distance between earth and the moon is 238,855 miles [LINK], divide that by the speed of light [186,282.4 miles/sec or 186,000 miles/sec] and that's what you get) to reach the moon, or about 1.3 seconds. Also, it wasn't given an official time-frame. If you're taking this from the anime, then it took around seven-to-eight seconds. In the manga, I have no idea.

Let's see here:

The beam fires at around 0:02-to-0:03 and the moon blows up at around 0:10, I am assuming that's when it hit.

238,855 miles / 7 sec = 34,122 miles/sec

238,855 miles / 8 sec = 29,856 miles/sec

It's still not light-speed, even if you use the anime. Relativistic, yes, but as I said before it has no official time frame (as far as I know) so that's still just a speculation. Also, ki blasts have inconsistent speeds. Sometimes they're fast, and other times Yamcha can dodge them. We would have to calculate the speed of those blasts you're talking about that Nappa evaded to accurately determine his speed.

That's just for the beam speeds, not for the character speeds which seem to be less impressive. Anyway, I'm not that good at math so take that all with a grain of salt.

SSJ aura emits light - Evidence is Goku vs Yakon

Gotenks SSJ aura would essentially be a stream of photons (much akin to a laser) with Gotenk's SSJ auras being the source of photon,Now we know that Light is energy and as it leaves a source the surrounding photons are absorbed almost instantaneously by the surrounding atoms/molecules causing their electrons to go into an excited state. The time taken for electron absorption to take place, and hence dissipation of a stream of light is 10^-8 sec. The fact those Photons from Gotenks stream are not absorbed when he moves,which would result in his aura fading out as he travels. Indicates he's moving at FTL speeds. What I'm trying to say more precisely is that if Gotenks was not moving at FTL speeds, those streams of light he was circling around the world, would have dissipated with each loop.

Post by FalconC2 (377 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@shonen: There are things that contradict Gontenks being FTL though. If I remember correctly, that trip around the world around the world wasted all his time up for his fusion. Piccolo caught up to him at the very last minute. It lasts around thirty minutes, correct? So, I would assume that flight took around twenty-eight or twenty-nine minutes.

Post by ReiKai (3,513 posts) See mini bio Level 10
Gotenks is not a good example. One part of that is for the Buu saga, Toriyama just didn't care. He -Really- didn't wanna do it, but because of Fans and Contractural Obligations, was made to. So the Buu saga was incredibly inconsistent mainly because Toriyama just wanted to blow through it and be done.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@FalconC2 said:

@shonen: There are things that contradict Gontenks being FTL though. If I remember correctly, that trip around the world around the world wasted all his time up for his fusion. Piccolo caught up to him at the very last minute. It lasts around thirty minutes, correct? So, I would assume that flight took around twenty-eight or twenty-nine minutes.

actually that was debunked since many people forgot/purposely overlooked the line where gotenks says he took a nap when piccolo got to him, which could be anything, and is subjective to gotenks point of view.

Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Also if you look at the top right hand corner of the panel you'll notice Toriyama the middle panel which shows the background, this is often a technique used by manga artist to show a passage of time. Also Gotenks didn't just circle the world 8 or 9 times, he circled it a few dozen times.

The image is sort of blurred out sorry but look at the middle right hand corner. Gotenks states " I circled the globe a few dozen times" and " EVEN TOOK A NAP"

Dozen = 12

Few=3+ So that's in total 36x at least

This is from VIZ media translation.

Post by ReiKai (3,513 posts) See mini bio Level 10
Light could travel around the Equator roughly 7 times in one second. Gotenks was basically in space around the world, so the actual distance he was covering while circling the earth is greater. Add in he only did it for a few sec at most before napping and Piccolo had to try and track him down, having been unable to Keep pace, would show FTL status easily.
 
It's not hard to imagine things happening in a short time frame. Even back in Dragon Ball, there was craziness. Such as Krillin fighting Jackie Chun (Roshi) and in part of their fight, they exchanged blows, had a quick game of cards, jenken (Rock/Scissors/Paper), before Roshi tricked him and knocked him down. All this took place in a fraction of a second and no one in the crowd saw what happened. These two had to Stop Fighting, turn to everyone and Explain what just happened.
Post by GIRUGAMESH (2,170 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@ReiKai: Always nice to be reminded that there are others on this site with sense.

Post by FalconC2 (377 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@GIRUGAMESH said:

@ReiKai: Always nice to be reminded that there are others on this site with sense.

You're talking about the same person who claims that Tenchi could beat the entire pantheon of Gods and Titans from Saint Seiya without Kami-Tenchi to back him up, and that D is completely immune to any form of telepathy in fiction.

@shonen: There is no way to quantify how long that nap lasted, and do we even actually see Gotenks take the nap? There's also a good chance that he's just bragging. Gotenks is not exactly known for his humility.

Do you how reliable Viz is?

@ReiKai: DBZ Kai is about as canon as the classic anime, in other words, not at all. Akira Toriyama had nothing to do with that, he just collected the royalties. So, no, the moon busting feat has no official time frame.

As far as I know, the manga is the only canon unless Toriyama himself or whoever else holds sway over the series has made some official statement about what is canon and what is not.

Post by SpeedForceSpider (4,902 posts) See mini bio Level 15

@FalconC2: Viz is very unreliable source it states, Raditz as a Saibaman's equal where all other canon sources says rival his power not equal.

Post by YouFinished (1,027 posts) See mini bio Level 9
@FalconC2 said:

You're still not taking Luke's reactions into account, and the fact that his telepathy isn't restricted by his movement speed. I'll ask you again, have you looked over Luke's feats? Goku has better movement speed and destructive capacity. That's true.

Luke has hax that override conventional durability, telepathy and mnemotherapy, for example. That is also true. He also has precognition/clairvoyance that enhances his reactions even further. There are shatterpoints, that tell him how to defeat an opponent as well (what I mean is, he would know how dangerous Goku is and use his telepathy and other hax abilities immediately). Chances are, Luke is going to be able to KO Goku before he has a chance to attack.

If Goku somehow manages to kill Luke, before Luke can KO him with telepathy, there's also the chance Luke can counter-attack as a force spirit. Has Goku hurt intangible entities before?

pretty much this
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@SpeedForceSpider said:

@FalconC2: Viz is very unreliable source it states, Raditz as a Saibaman's equal where all other canon sources says rival his power not equal.

You mean the fannon translation made by people on manga forum

http://shonenjump.viz.com/comment/521

Read this following thread. It pretty much explains from somone who did translations for 5 years on mangastream.com on how fannon translations tend to be pretty inaccurate a lot of the time, while viz translate properly what is actually being said from the japanese manga translation,and while they do make some mistakes their much better than the bootlegs people read on internet sites.

Post by FalconC2 (377 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@shonen: Yeah, but that's talking about the Naruto Viz translations in comparison to the Mangastream ones. It's not relevant. Do they have anything on the DBZ translations they made?

EDIT: Is it like, on another page, in the thread?

Post by SpeedForceSpider (4,902 posts) See mini bio Level 15

@shonen: No I do not mean any random translation, and AT said that the saibamen are inferior to raditz. Yet the Viz translation pitted them equally. That forum link also says that Viz is not 100% properly translated as you make it seem. What exactly is your reason of using that thread?

Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@FalconC2 said:

@shonen: Yeah, but that's talking about the Naruto translations. Not the DBZ ones. Do they have anything on that?

You don't get it. This entire thread shown above was instigated by manga translators on these sites people think are more accurate than viz attacking viz forum because viz was targeting them and they believe they know better. To have someone whose been doing translation for 5 years on mangastream, goes to Japanese forums to improve Japnese skill in order to read Scripts on manga chapters before they come out and state that the translation on these bootleg manga sites are inaccurate and while viz makes mistakes some time they do make accurate translation most of the time is a grain in itself, that you should consider. Here is link http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2012/02/viz-lowers-the-boom-on-scanlators/

Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@SpeedForceSpider said:

@shonen: No I do not mean any random translation, and AT said that the saibamen are inferior to raditz. Yet the Viz translation pitted them equally. That forum link also says that Viz is not 100% properly translated as you make it seem. What exactly is your reason of using that thread?

Akira Toriyama said siaberman were inferior to raditz where official PL guide ? Care to fine the link ?

Post by SpeedForceSpider (4,902 posts) See mini bio Level 15
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@SpeedForceSpider said:

@shonen: http://tenshinhanpowerlevels.blogspot.com/2009_09_01_archive.html

There are you satisfied?

And where in viz did it say raditz was equal to saiberman. Even so in the above thread u posted it states r (hitteki, which can be translated as “equal”, but only in a general sense, not any strict mathematical sense). Like I said Viz isn't perfect and if you'd bother reading the guy stated himself they do make mistakes some time.

Post by SpeedForceSpider (4,902 posts) See mini bio Level 15

@shonen: You didn't read where it said rival I presume.

@SpeedForceSpider said:

@shonen: No I do not mean any random translation, and AT said that the saibamen are inferior to raditz. Yet the Viz translation pitted them equally. That forum link also says that Viz is not 100% properly translated as you make it seem. What exactly is your reason of using that thread?

Well lookie here I seem to have said Viz was not perfectly translated myself. You are awfully hard-headed and if you think you're proving a point you're dead wrong, because what you are saying makes entirely no sense at all.

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