Luke Skywalker vs Goku

Topic started by peruano99A on June 17, 2012. Last post by Kelleth 2 years, 1 month ago.
Post by ReiKai (3,511 posts) See mini bio Level 10
They don't increase durability. What they -can- do is create a Force Shield to defend themselves with against attacks, but nothing to the degree that you're hoping for. Blaster bolts? A lightsaber? Jack nothing in the face of even a weak Ki blast. Need I remind you that even a Weak attack from Nappa vaporized a city?
 
  
Post by FalconC2 (377 posts) See mini bio Level 9

That's why I said that Luke is going to need to use his telepathy or one of his more exotic abilities. He is outmatched in terms of raw destructive power in the fight against Goku.

Goku's feats of telepathy are nowhere near Luke's, and he has shown no resistance against attacks that tear his soul out (mnemotherapy). So, how exactly is Goku going to defend against that?

I would like to also remind you that Luke's telepathy isn't restricted by his movement speed, and he can use it by just thinking.

Post by ReiKai (3,511 posts) See mini bio Level 10
Need I remind you also that Goku was having a TP conversation with King Kai while in FTL combat with Frieza? This proves more than anything that Goku's mental faculties are far faster than Luke's have ever been. Nvm that, more than anything, Goku can kill him faster than Luke can think or react, so it's Moot, even assuming it Could work. But the fact that Goku has shown even Some TP, along with TK, means he's not explicitly defenseless, only that most of the Z-fighters don't train their mental abilities.
 
Quite frankly, this'd be much like dealing with Babidi. Babidi could TP the entire planet and explode a persons head from the other side of the world. He was still effortlessly put down by Piccolo and then slaughtered with one blow by Fat Buu.
Post by XImpossibruX (56 posts) See mini bio Level 7

@ReiKai said:

Need I remind you also that Goku was having a TP conversation with King Kai while in FTL combat with Frieza? This proves more than anything that Goku's mental faculties are far faster than Luke's have ever been. Nvm that, more than anything, Goku can kill him faster than Luke can think or react, so it's Moot, even assuming it Could work. But the fact that Goku has shown even Some TP, along with TK, means he's not explicitly defenseless, only that most of the Z-fighters don't train their mental abilities. Quite frankly, this'd be much like dealing with Babidi. Babidi could TP the entire planet and explode a persons head from the other side of the world. He was still effortlessly put down by Piccolo and then slaughtered with one blow by Fat Buu.

Oh god... quoted for the truth

Post by FalconC2 (377 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@ReiKai said:

Need I remind you also that Goku was having a TP conversation with King Kai while in FTL combat with Frieza? This proves more than anything that Goku's mental faculties are far faster than Luke's have ever been. Nvm that, more than anything, Goku can kill him faster than Luke can think or react, so it's Moot, even assuming it Could work. But the fact that Goku has shown even Some TP, along with TK, means he's not explicitly defenseless, only that most of the Z-fighters don't train their mental abilities. Quite frankly, this'd be much like dealing with Babidi. Babidi could TP the entire planet and explode a persons head from the other side of the world. He was still effortlessly put down by Piccolo and then slaughtered with one blow by Fat Buu.

Are you getting this DBZ character's are FTL thing from some sort of faulty translation and character statement? You know, the same thing that you've been accusing me of, or do you have concrete, quantifiable, evidence?

As for the Babidi thing, he has only shown great range with his telepathy. He only killed that one monk with it, not an entire world like some Sith Lord's are prone to doing. That, and his instance of brainwashing Vegeta.

Post by ReiKai (3,511 posts) See mini bio Level 10
I calculated them myself. Such as Goku was at least Mach 28 in travel speed during Saiyan Saga. Piccolo's moonbuster was just slightly under lightspeed.
 
Also, Sith never killed populations via TP. Nihilus consumed the Force of a world and its populace, Sid gradually drained the populace of Byss in order to boost his power. Vitiate performed a ritual and turned Nathema into a Void after collecting all of the Life Force of the planet, citizens, every living creature on it, plus 100 Sith Lords who assisted in the ritual.
Post by dccomicsrule2011 (220 posts) See mini bio Level 7

Luke Skywalker, Look in this thread and you would see why Luke Skywalker.

Post by Es7 (12 posts) See mini bio Level 6

@ReiKai: @ReiKai said:

Oh you mean when Luke was beaten by Celeste Morne sometime prior to facing Vader on the Death Star? Or when Grand Master Luke was put into a Coma by the Force Ghost of Exar Kun? Or when Darth Caedus was giving him a run for his money until Luke had to Fully Become One with the Force? Yes, I know about Luke. And I also know a Bullet could kill any Jedi given the right circumstance, because 99% of all Force Users are soft-bodied fleshy bipedals.

That comic took place before he even knew Vader was his father and before the Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi you dipshit :facepalm

And Luke got his soul ripped out by Kun

And Caedus was more or less equal to him so once again your sprouting bullshit

Post by Roman55 (98 posts) See mini bio Level 6

@ReiKai: Your calcs were disproved in several places online.

Post by ReiKai (3,511 posts) See mini bio Level 10
They were not disproved. Random hater saying "They're not FTL!" is no disproving my calcs. It's just called being a hater.
 
1. Luke had problems facing Vader's secret Apprentices, After Vader and Sidious had died. Such as;
1a: Lumiya had Luke on the ropes solely because he didn't know how to counter a Lightwhip in their first battle. The lightwhip being the most asinine and moronic weapon in the SWU.
2. Luke was sent into a coma. That's the long and short of it. Point proven; he's not invincible and was taken out by a Ghost of someone who many argue couldn't beat Vader (They argue, but it's just fanboys ranting. Exar Kun would rip Vader a new one).
3. Caedus was not equal to Luke. Luke just didn't want to kill him. When Luke "Became One with the Force", he put down Caedus easily. It's just not something Luke can do on the fly.
 
And really, how were the calcs disproven? King Kai said it'd take Goku 2 days to run snake way. Given the showings in the episodes themselves, 48hrs didn't pass at all. If it still took 1 day for the Saiyans to touch down, count in 10min for them to drop in on Piccolo and Co, roughly another 10-20min of fighting, plus the 3hr delay Vegeta set, and the following 10min or so of fighting before Goku showed up, you're looking at, at most, 28hrs roughly that it took Goku to finish running snake way, have Kami port him back to Earth and then fly the Nimbus to the battlefield.
 
Now, as I had said before, even if I was wrong about the 10mil km mark, the time he ran snake way was still considerably less than King Kai's predictions. I'll recheck the Manga later. According to the DB wiki, it's 1million km, or 625thousand miles. Guess what? Distance / Time = Speed. 625k miles divided by 28hrs equals a speed of 22321.4mph, or Mach 29. So guess what? My calculations are 

STILL CORRECT!!

 
Now then,
Post by Roman55 (98 posts) See mini bio Level 6

@ReiKai: Hey good job posting a bunch of numbers that make no sense.

Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@Roman55 said:

@ReiKai: Hey good job posting a bunch of numbers that make no sense.

For the bear minimum and that's with total hate down playing goku on Namek Saga is at least Mach 500.

Post by ReiKai (3,511 posts) See mini bio Level 10
On another notation, regarding PL gain to speed. If we were to take these figures and apply a speed to PL under the assumption that Speed increases with the users PL, then Goku at a PL of 8000 had a Travel Speed of mach 28. Frieza at 50%, a PL of 60million, going by such, would have a mach speed over 210thousand. Which is equal to 160,020,000mph. Lightspeed is 186thousand miles per second, or 669,600,000mph. Given such, Frieza at half power could be considered 1/4th lightspeed. And that's Travel Speed. By all indications, DBZ chars have a Combat Speed several times their travel speed.
Post by shonen (846 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@ReiKai said:

On another notation, regarding PL gain to speed. If we were to take these figures and apply a speed to PL under the assumption that Speed increases with the users PL, then Goku at a PL of 8000 had a Travel Speed of mach 28. Frieza at 50%, a PL of 60million, going by such, would have a mach speed over 210thousand. Which is equal to 160,020,000mph. Lightspeed is 186thousand miles per second, or 669,600,000mph. Given such, Frieza at half power could be considered 1/4th lightspeed. And that's Travel Speed. By all indications, DBZ chars have a Combat Speed several times their travel speed.

www.animevice.com/forums/general-discussion/1/gokus-travelling-speed-in-freiza-saga-ftl/328214/

Post by FalconC2 (377 posts) See mini bio Level 9

@ReiKai: You are making the assumption that a DBZ character's speed is directly correlated to their Power Level? There's nothing concrete behind that. It's just a guess more or less. A presumptuous one, at that.

I'm talking about solid proof, like a character flying from the earth to the moon in less than a second; logic would dictate that would obviously be FTL. I'm talking about something like measuring the distance a character traveled, and the time it took them to cross that distance. Or the speed of an object/attack a character reacted to, and dodged/deflected.

That would give us a good idea of their speed.

Post by ReiKai (3,511 posts) See mini bio Level 10
I don't presume to use PL to calculate speed. I only stated the -IF- of using such. Though you presume much of others and too much of Luke, whose Speed is barely even super-sonic. And as I have already calculated given the Time and distance traveled by Goku on Snake Way in the Saiyan Saga, his Travel Speed is at least mach 29, which places him many, many times faster than Luke.
 
However we do know there is Some correlation between PL and speed. This is proven by the fight with Vegeta. The Kaioken, a technique designed to increase the users Strength, Speed, senses and Power, was used to face with Vegeta. Base Kaioken increases by 50% of the users abilities, or 1/2 their PL. KKx2 is 2xPl/Ability, and so on. Goku using a KKx2 would double his speed and strength, which would bump him from Mach 29 to Mach 58 and a PL of 16k. And while it had momentarily surprised Vegeta, it was still fairly easily overcome by Vegeta's greater speed. Which would indicate that Vegeta's speed is in excess of Mach 58.
 
The only reason why Goku's KKx3 didn't utterly dominate Vegeta was because it was hurting Goku as much as he was hurting Vegeta. Meaning his body wasn't fully prepared for its use and it was overtaxing him.
Post by FalconC2 (377 posts) See mini bio Level 9

You're still not taking Luke's reactions into account, and the fact that his telepathy isn't restricted by his movement speed. I'll ask you again, have you looked over Luke's feats? Goku has better movement speed and destructive capacity. That's true.

Luke has hax that override conventional durability, telepathy and mnemotherapy, for example. That is also true. He also has precognition/clairvoyance that enhances his reactions even further. There are shatterpoints, that tell him how to defeat an opponent as well (what I mean is, he would know how dangerous Goku is and use his telepathy and other hax abilities immediately). Chances are, Luke is going to be able to KO Goku before he has a chance to attack.

If Goku somehow manages to kill Luke, before Luke can KO him with telepathy, there's also the chance Luke can counter-attack as a force spirit. Has Goku hurt intangible entities before?

Post by ReiKai (3,511 posts) See mini bio Level 10
Luke's reaction isn't anywhere remotely close to what you claim it is. And Conventional durability would be like Armor. Protecting oneself with Ki is hardly Conventional. Also, Mmenotherapy requires Physical Contact, ie; touching the forehead, to work. It's the same as performed by The Father in TCW when he removed the memories of Anakin's future as Vader from him that were shown to him by the Son.
 
And no, chances are, Luke will be dead long before he can even process a single thought because Goku outclasses him so vastly in speed that none of his hax abilities are going to account for anything. And try to answer this; Has Luke ever actually done Anything as a Force Ghost besides offer Advice? Becoming a Force Ghost doesn't mean crap, especially with Jedi Force Spirits who never act beyond speaking to others. The same as it was with Luke giving Cade advice in the Legacy series.
 
Honestly you've been grasping at straws from the getgo and all of it has always just boiled down to Goku speedraping him.
Post by FalconC2 (377 posts) See mini bio Level 9

Luke's reaction isn't anywhere remotely close to what you claim it is. And Conventional durability would be like Armor. Protecting oneself with Ki is hardly Conventional. Also, Mmenotherapy requires Physical Contact, ie; touching the forehead, to work.

Has ki actually done this? Does it have actually have feats of defending against telepathy (of Luke's caliber) and soul manipulation? You're one the assuming that it can, so you must have some solid--canonical--feats proving it. Please, enlighten me.

You're the one who isn't bothering to go over Luke's feats. Luke can react to and perceive things moving at significant fractions of light-speed, and has precognition to enhance those reactions (from Shadows of the Empire, for instance). Also, I said before that he could probably use his telepathy to paralyze Goku first, then use mnemotherapy. He doesn't need to though. His telepathy would probably be enough.

And no, chances are, Luke will be dead long before he can even process a single thought because Goku outclasses him so vastly in speed that none of his hax abilities are going to account for anything. And try to answer this; Has Luke ever actually done Anything as a Force Ghost besides offer Advice? Becoming a Force Ghost doesn't mean crap, especially with Jedi Force Spirits who never act beyond speaking to others. The same as it was with Luke giving Cade advice in the Legacy series.

Dark Sidious would disagree with you, after all, in the Dark Empire he was more than capable of possessing people as a force spirit. Still, it's not like Luke has actually done that himself. That's why I said there was only a chance of that happening. I didn't say it would.

Unless you have actual proof of FTL speed for Goku, he's going to be knocked out with telepathy curtsy of Luke. You're free to disagree though.

Post by ReiKai (3,511 posts) See mini bio Level 10
The evidence is already clearly there. Even early on, their Combat/Reaction times are greater than their Travel Speed. Proof was already shown. Piccolo moonbusting. Took about 4sec for his attack to reach the moon and destroy it. It would take Light just under 4sec to go from the Earth to the Moon. That makes the attack shy of lightspeed. And that was when Piccolo was Weighted with a PL over 300. A stronger Piccolo was having his attacks evaded by Nappa.
 
Make of that what you will. I've seen Luke feats and all of his major abilities require Time and Focus to perform. Something that he doesn't have here. And I can prove to you, that someone even Weaker than Goku in terms of destructive ability and speed, can take down Luke.
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