Kid Buu vs Hal Jordan

Topic started by deathmonger on Jan. 11, 2012. Last post by katanalauncher 8 months, 2 weeks ago.
Post by Phoenix_Wright (124 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@MrASSH0LE: Haha thanks! But this case isn't won yet! More evidence is needed before I can make the final argument!

Post by MisterShin (2,125 posts) See mini bio Level 14
@Phoenix_Wright said:



Mr.Shin... I'm afraid there is a contradiction in your testimony! We are comparing strength, the strength of Kid Buu at that. What we saw in your scans were evidence of Gotenks using Ki to make a huge crater at close range. In the earlier part of that scan, Gotenks used the "Volleyball" Technique, right? That attack engulfs the opponent in a considerable amount of Ki, since this is SSJ3 Gotenks the amount of Ki must have been a lot. Gotenks then hits Buu into the earth and it explodes. Although powerful, it is not strength per say. Referencing the Superman/Wounder Woman scan. Well not only is that not Superman's best feat of strength, but the punch was from space, slowed down be re-entry into earth, we all know the ki attacks as powerful as Kamehamehas disappear shortly after leaving the earth, to who is to say that the attack Gotenks did would not have been weaker had he done it in space? Not only that but wasn't Superman mind controlled? As for the feat with the Flash, as pointed out by Rpgr, the Flash can move much faster than light, in the scan he was only approaching the speed of light. Still reading the scan, that punch was faster and more powerful than what most characters shown considering he said "Near infinite mass" and he could hit him (Another speedster almost as fast as him, if not as fast) about 1,000 before he could blink and it sent him across the planet. Both Superman and Flash only used brute strength while Gotenks used ki in his strongest form.

Volleyball technique does NOT explode.  
This was shown when Gohan broke it.  

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
It is unknown how far Ki Blasts can travel, Master Roshi and Piccolo made it reach as far as the Moon. (Goku's Spirit Bomb energy travelled across the universe)
Space does not have friction/atmosphere so objects move faster in Space, so yeah re-entry would slow down the speed of Superman & WW. 
 
Gotenks feat was physical strength, the volleyball technique seals opponent until they break out. 
Gotenks uses Ki to enhance his physical stats. The same way Superman absorbs yellow sun energy. 
 

Similar to Gotenk's scan, that is not a valid strength feat, it is more of a mental feat, that is telekinetic powers, not strength, well not physical strength anyway, and all those people most likely did not even weigh more than the weights Goku used on Kai's planet.

Actually some major towns here in the UK have populations between 170,000 and 215,000. 
The average weight of a UK male & female is 84kg and 70kg respectively.  

Taking the lowest numbers for a major town and make them all women 170,000 x 70kg = 11,900,000kg or 11,900 tons. 
Taking the largest numbers for a major town and make them all male     215,000 x 84kg = 18,060,000kg or 18,060 tons. 
That's difference of 6,160 tons. 
 
This Buu feat is much greater than what you think, but yeah its not a physical feat. Obviously this is a low showing of strength for Buu anyway.
 
The Kai Planet thing is a Gag Feat. 
http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=742565&highlight=goku  (Kid Goku exerts over 10,000 tons of leg strength) 
http://outskirtsbattledome.wikispaces.com/Character+Profile+-+Tao+Pai+Pai (Tao Pai Pai threw a pillar using over 100,000 tons of force)
 
Buu's Physical Strength is not a limiter in this battle. IMO
Post by rpgr (45 posts) See mini bio Level 3

@MisterShin: Kind of nitpicking some details that don't really need to be nitpicked (like if it was a telekinetic feat or just a physical one becuase it does not matter, he has the ability to exert that type of force not to mention the population of people in DBZ is actually quite small). But gravity in deep space is less than around the atmosphere. In any case, you're both missing terminal velocity (which is to say there is a max velocity and human sized being and shape would reach).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration_due_to_gravity

Best if you 2 look those up. Once again, if any of us had the momentum, we could punch a non orbital, non directional force exerting object with the same devastation as a Super hero due to the constant acceleration due to gravity and terminal velocity (good example of PIS feats are things that break the rules of physics without any explanation - Flash's speed force is a fairly good fictional reason for breaking some rules of physics, Superman holding up a plane when it is crashing is actually a bad feat as anyone doing that is going to crack the plane into two pieces where they grab it).

Post by Phoenix_Wright (124 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@MisterShin:

In your scan you said that it does not explode. Gohan was trapped in the Galactic Doughnut technique, not the volleyball. Not only that, but we have seen the Kamehameha blow up as well and simply carry someone out into space as well. Not only that but attacks in Dragonball Z usually explode anyway, the special beam cannon even did that after it went through Goku and Raditz and blew up that mountain. From what I see, the volleyball technique is simply a stronger version of the attack Frieza used on Goku who escaped it before it exploded. Nevertheless, there is no doubting that the attack had a lot of ki to be able to contain Buu, once the attack had impact it does not simply disappear it explodes or possibly the heat from the attack caused the implosion. However I see no evidence to suggest this was purely physical strength. Nevertheless, Kid Buu lacks this power unless he absorbs someone. As for the theory of using Ki to enhance his attacks, I don't see how, it would make more sense to say that is Gotenks had ki around him and was not punching a ki ball. It would be like saying Superman has the punch force of a supernova if he punched someone into the sun and made it explode.

However, the subject matter of the battle as a whole is not Gotenk's power. We need to see if Kid Buu has enough power to break out of the barrier with physical strength before Hal manipulates his strcture of BFRs him.

@rpgr:

Ah, I see, sorry, I am not much of a science guy. Uh..thanks for clearing that up for me.

Post by rpgr (45 posts) See mini bio Level 3

This battle IMO comes down to can Hal destroy Buu at a molecular level before he runs out of energy.

I say no so therefore Buu wins. Which side you fall upon the "can Buu break constructs" argument determines the winner. I say he can, while the ring is up, pre-DCnu Jordan wouldn't take any big damage from Buu. Yet I don't believe anything in Jordan's arsenal (1 green ring only) can kill Buu on a molecular level (so that he can't reform, with avatar power or multiple rings, I think he does). Therefore to me, it becomes an endurance test. Jordan being a hero has to worry about how he fights, Buu being evil doesn't. Jordan spends too much power on safeguarding planets/suns and having to play defensive to win.

Post by Destinyheroknight (10,283 posts) See mini bio Level 21

@rpgr:

Morals is off, so it mean Hal don't care about anything (this DBZ vs Comic debate is one of the best ones I have saw, keep up the good work you guys)

Post by MisterShin (2,125 posts) See mini bio Level 14
@Phoenix_Wright:   
 
Volleyball Technique and Galactic Doughnuts are 1 and the same.  
Volleyball Technique can be seen as a variation or improvement of the Galactic Doughnut Technique.  
It is not similar to Freiza's Technique at all.
The crater was Gotenks Strength, it was not a Ki Blast or Explosion :-)
Post by rpgr (45 posts) See mini bio Level 3

@Destinyheroknight: OK, I stand corrected, still I don't see Hal being able to destroy on a molecular level with Green ring. Lanterns have killed directly (since Sinestro corps war) but there is always a corpse leftover (no molecular destruction) and that just won't do vs. Buu.

That really is the only reason why I give the win to Buu, by pure attrition and limited stamina on the ring. Avatar'd Lantern could for sure do it, multi-ring lanterns could probably do it (not 100% sure, depends on which rings and how many and which character, the have trouble maintaining 2, only possible 1 ring fight is Orange and I would say Orange *should* be able to take it if full powered and wielded with some competency aka, someone smarter than Larfleeze).

Post by Phoenix_Wright (124 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@MisterShin said:

W-wait a sec, did you just....? Huh, I guess from the other side that is pretty weird.

Volleyball Technique and Galactic Doughnuts are 1 and the same.
Volleyball Technique can be seen as a variation or improvement of the Galactic Doughnut Technique.

W-w-whaaaaaat!? Could I be missing something....? There must be a contradiction somewhere! (I gotta be able to prove that that volleyball attack was NOT completely physical strength! Wait a minuet! "One in the same"....! "Variation or improvement.....!" I think I might have it...!)

It is not similar to Freiza's Technique at all.
The crater was Gotenks Strength, it was not a Ki Blast or Explosion :-)

Well, similar in the fact that they both trap their opponents in a sphere of ki and toss them down the the ground. Only question I have is: if that ki ball like Freiza exploded on impact, but we already know in order for Gotenks to contain buu, a considerable amount of ki is needed, I find it a bit hard to believe that the Ki did not have something to do with the amount of damage seen in that crater. Where did the ki go? If it didn't explode did it just disappear after impact?

I believe I found a contradiction!

Earlier in your testimony you stated and I quote "Volleyball Technique and Galactic Doughnuts are 1 and the same.Volleyball Technique can be seen as a variation or improvement of the Galactic Doughnut Technique"

But as we all know; almost all ki blast are simply variations of each other! A Kamehameha is a improved variation of a regular ki blast, the Distructo Disk is a improved variation of a ki blast, same with the Special Beam Cannon!

And we all know that those ki blast in some way harm the opponent, although a Kamehameha does not always explode, it still leaves a giant crater or causes serious damage. I don't think the is the Author's description of the Kamehameha it says anything like it blowing things up does it? Yet we see that kind of damage it does anyway! Ergo, those scans of the description of the attack cannot be used as valid evidence! As we know the evidence is in the scans from the actual material, not some description that was not even included in the original manga!

That is why I say that it is entirely possible if not definite, that the Volleyball Technique has some sort of destructive power! We cannot gauge Gotenk's strength from that alone!

Post by justanormalguy (270 posts) See mini bio Level 10
I do give the edge to Hal. Durability wise, both of them are pretty on point. Buu being a galactic level threat, and by DBZ standards a galaxy buster, his power would be at that level as would his durability. Hal has survived galactic explosions before with the power of his ring. His ring could protect him from Kid Buu absorbing him. That's the key. Hal's versatility with his ring could, and most likely is, the deciding factor. From the energy output to what he can create, that's what separates Buu from Hal. Hal will win in a very tough fight.
Post by MohsinMan99 (1,777 posts) See mini bio Level 21

@Phoenix_Wright: If anything, you play the part of Phoenix pretty well. :)

Post by justanormalguy (270 posts) See mini bio Level 10
Also, if brought up. Buu's regen is a key factor, but Hal's limits are only his mind. If Hal wanted to create an Earth-busting cannon, there is nothing saying that he can't. That ring is Hal's key to victory.
Post by Kurohige (3,719 posts) See mini bio Level 19

I'm impressed Mr. Wright!

Post by Phoenix_Wright (124 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@Kurohige: @MohsinMan99:

Aw, well you know, I try my best, hehehe!

@justanormalguy:

And I would have to agree with you, Mr.Guy!

Post by MisterShin (2,125 posts) See mini bio Level 14
@Phoenix_Wright said:

But as we all know; almost all ki blast are simply variations of each other! A Kamehameha is a improved variation of a regular ki blast, the Distructo Disk is a improved variation of a ki blast, same with the Special Beam Cannon!


Special Beam Cannon pieces through objects, it does not explode. 
Distructo Disk Slices/Cuts through objects, it does not explode.   
They do derive from the Ki Blast tree.
However, Ki Blasts have different properties.   

Piccolo & Master Roshi can fire Ki element Lightning. 
Vegeta and others can fire Ki element Fire.   

And we all know that those ki blast in some way harm the opponent, although a Kamehameha does not always explode, it still leaves a giant crater or causes serious damage. I don't think the is the Author's description of the Kamehameha it says anything like it blowing things up does it? Yet we see that kind of damage it does anyway! Ergo, those scans of the description of the attack cannot be used as valid evidence! As we know the evidence is in the scans from the actual material, not some description that was not even included in the original manga!

That is why I say that it is entirely possible if not definite, that the Volleyball Technique has some sort of destructive power! We cannot gauge Gotenk's strength from that alone!

This statement above has many errors and mistakes. The Volleyball Technique has ZERO destructive power, its only function is to restrict the opponent movement. 
Mafuba is another example of a Ki Attack which has ZERO destructive power, it only seals opponents. 
Taiyoken or Solar Flare does not have destructive power, it blinds with light element. 
Actually material shows that when a user breaks out of the Volleyball or Doughnut technique, the Ki dissipates and that's all.
Post by Phoenix_Wright (124 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@MisterShin said:

Special Beam Cannon pieces through objects, it does not explode.
Distructo Disk Slices/Cuts through objects, it does not explode.
They do derive from the Ki Blast tree.

Mr.Shin, your knowledge on Dragon Ball Z and skill in debating are among the best, but even someone as great as you has to have a contradiction somewhere in your testimony. Although it took me a while to find it, it all really comes down to evidence!

I would like to ask the court to please take a look at these two pieces of evidence provided by NightRaptor and ImmaGoku1. This first piece of evidences is a video that shows Piccolo's first Special beam Cannon, and as I stated; it explodes:

The second is Goku performing the Destructo Disk, after it cuts the enemy it explodes upon impact on the ground:

With these pieces of evidence, it is clear that a ki attack can have other properties outside of it's original purpose!

Ergo, that means the Volleyball Technique can in fact explode if the user so chooses! Fact is, we did not see the impact, we only saw him throw it down and then he went to see the damage, then we see the crater. There is no proof of it exploding or not, this also questions the validity of those scans describing the attacks since we know that it does not state that the Destructo Disk explodes and same for the Special Beam Cannon!

Yet we see them BOTH explode upon impact on the earth!

However, Ki Blasts have different properties.
Piccolo & Master Roshi can fire Ki element Lightning.
Vegeta and others can fire Ki element Fire.

Well, yes. I never said they didn't have different properties, that flaming ki blast Vegeta use blew off half of Goku's shirt and Master Roshie used the lightning on Goku back in Dragon Ball, correct?

This statement above has many errors and mistakes. The Volleyball Technique has ZERO destructive power, its only function is to restrict the opponent movement.

Ouch, hehe, well I never said my logic was flawless now did I? Although the Destructo Disk's function was to slice the opponent, yet it exploded. And the Galactica Doughnut surrounds the opponent in a ring of ki to restrain them, but couldn't Gotenks tighten the ring until it cut Buu? I don't remember that episode too well. Either way, I'm afraid I have no concrete and decisive evidence to prove that the Volleyball technique explodes, outside of it being Ki, but you already proved that does not matter. Although we do not se the actual impact, there is more evidence suggesting the crater was pure strength. So you got me there.

Mafuba is another example of a Ki Attack which has ZERO destructive power, it only seals opponents. Taiyoken or Solar Flare does not have destructive power, it blinds with light element.

Well once again, yes. But as I said before "Almost" all ki attacks explode. Some of the ones you mentioned were defensive moves anyway, I was stating the projectile ki "Attacks" are the ones that explode. I guess those really only apply to those with the intent to kill the enemy. So I digress, the Volleyball technique did not explode.

Actually material shows that when a user breaks out of the Volleyball or Doughnut technique, the Ki dissipates and that's all.

W-what?! Why didn't you just say that earlier?!

Post by MisterShin (2,125 posts) See mini bio Level 14
@Phoenix_Wright said:


I would like to ask the court to please take a look at these two pieces of evidence provided by NightRaptor and ImmaGoku1. This first piece of evidences is a video that shows Piccolo's first Special beam Cannon, and as I stated; it explodes:

The second is Goku performing the Destructo Disk, after it cuts the enemy it explodes upon impact on the ground:


Nice find 
Although in the manga neither of them are shown to explode :-/ 
 

the Galactica Doughnut surrounds the opponent in a ring of ki to restrain them, but couldn't Gotenks tighten the ring until it cut Buu? I don't remember that episode too well. Either way, I'm afraid I have no concrete and decisive evidence to prove that the Volleyball technique explodes, outside of it being Ki, but you already proved that does not matter. Although we do not se the actual impact, there is more evidence suggesting the crater was pure strength. So you got me there.

Mafuba is another example of a Ki Attack which has ZERO destructive power, it only seals opponents. Taiyoken or Solar Flare does not have destructive power, it blinds with light element.

Well once again, yes. But as I said before "Almost" all ki attacks explode. Some of the ones you mentioned were defensive moves anyway, I was stating the projectile ki "Attacks" are the ones that explode. I guess those really only apply to those with the intent to kill the enemy. So I digress, the Volleyball technique did not explode.

Actually material shows that when a user breaks out of the Volleyball or Doughnut technique, the Ki dissipates and that's all.
 But Volleyball is not an Attack. lol 
If it were then Gotenks wouldn't need to hit it :P 
 

W-what?! Why didn't you just say that earlier?!

Somehow I thought I did :-/ 
Post by Phoenix_Wright (124 posts) See mini bio Level 10

@MisterShin:

We see the same kind of Damage in the manga:

Although, it is a bit off topic. We were discussing the Buu thing right? I forgot how all this came along.

Post by rpgr (45 posts) See mini bio Level 3

@justanormalguy: Because at the point of Buu, Earth busting just doesn't cut it anymore. At Freeza, planet busting has been established. At Cell, sun/star busting is said to be possible.

Post by thanobomb1124 (2 posts) See mini bio Level 3
@Kuro_San

Phoenix already won only by posting how he posts....

Lol. But true
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